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Thread: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

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    A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    I know, i know, strange question coming here:
    I am after a slower pace type of landscape photography.
    I wondered about user experience between a A7r with a 24mm TS lens (or additionally 17mm later) on a tripod vs an Alpa STC (or other tech cam) combined with an older back (Hasselblad 39 MP) and equivalent lens.
    In theory it seems the A7r could technically deliver the same functions, but I am afraid such a combo might feel "strange" to use.
    On the other side life view in each and every part of the image with magnification sounds like one can take full advantage of T/S options.
    I also understand digital backs should deliver superioir IQ (DR and color and detail) but any of the newer generation backs is not an option for me due to price and the fact that this would be only an addition to my Leica S gear for slow pace landscape photography with movements.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    In my (highly biased and self serving opinion) working with a digital back on a tech camera is not an experience which can otherwise be replicated.

    Don't get me wrong; there are some real PITA parts of it. But it's as enjoyable, relaxing, and immersive of a photographic process as I've experienced outside of a chemical darkroom.

    Of course this is highly subjective and personal. I like big knobs and mechanical timers. I like the tactile nature of the process.

    So the question is: have you shot with a tech camera before? If not, I'd do that first, and then ask your technical questions after. There are workshops, forum members spread around the world that might meet with you over a beer, and of course (again highly self serving) dealers that can do remote demos, rentals toward purchase etc.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    In my (highly biased and self serving opinion) working with a digital back on a tech camera is not an experience which can otherwise be replicated.

    Don't get me wrong; there are some real PITA parts of it. But it's as enjoyable, relaxing, and immersive of a photographic process as I've experienced outside of a chemical darkroom.
    Thanks Doug,
    I have been afraid to get this kind of answers
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I also understand digital backs should deliver superioir IQ (DR and color and detail)
    As of today, the only medium format digital backs which can deliver dynamic range better than or equal to the A7R are the IQ250, IQ150, Credo 50, CFV-50C, H5D-50C, H5D-200CMS, 645Z, which are all using a 44x33mm Sony CMOS sensor.

    All CCD digital backs will fail if you compare DR against the IMX094 Sony CMOS sensor in the A7R (or D800E/D810).

    I would advise against purchasing any CCD digital back unless you want compatibility with legendary technical camera lenses such like the Schneider 28XL. I would also advise against purchasing an A7R at this stage as a newer model around 50 MP (probably named as A9 or A7R-II) will be announced in the next weeks.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Hi Paratom,
    I used to work with a Cambo wrs and wrc400 +22 and 33mpxLeaf+digitar lenses...
    I moved to sony a7r+tse +mf lenses, because of high iso usability and because around 30/40mpx is enough for me...dr and color are good on the sony sensor...and you know : liveview is cool
    Must be honest i sometimes really regret my cambo setup, but this is more a nostalgy of having a cool manual workflow...
    Regarding lenses performance don't expect them to come close to digitar lenses, even the best ts or mf lenses don't come close, in both sharpness or distorsion...i'll not speak of rodenstock as i haven't used any...
    But if you only need A2 or A1 print from the A7r, i think canon tse, contax TS, and Mf lenses+ts adapter can do the job really properly..(i can send you some raw if you need to see a particular combination)
    I just bought the HCam master from Stefan Steib, mus say this is the perfect adapter for a "techcam like" adpater, combining this with ts lenses is perfect! look here:
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/sony/511...14-24mm-2.html

    I would say:
    - if you're after real good photographic experience, and best quality then go for Alpa stc + rodenstock
    -last option for fast shooting, convenience, high iso, then A7R+yts lenses is a good option or alpa fps and iq250 of course
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    It's a question I have asked myself quite often of late.

    The A7R will do a very good job with a metabones and Canon TS set of lenses, the 17mm and 24. There are some reports of loss of contrast on shifts with the metabones, so I would do a search on that. With this solution I don't think you would need to shoot a LCC for color cast, but you still might want to try one for light fall off. C1 will correct it, as I have worked with the A7r on a Arca DSLR2 and tech lenses, (a bit different setup).

    With the A7II coming, I would agree to wait as once the new body comes, you might see a better price on the A7r.

    The Sony A7r/TS lenses can have some parallax as you are only shifting the lens, but you can also move the camera body, the opposite direction the same amount and that will help quite a lot.

    No doubt the 50MP CMOS backs have better DR, I see it as shadow recovery others see if differently, but the CCD backs at base iso can still turn in a very nice image. But past base it becomes a CMOS win. Unless you use sensor plus, and can live with the 3/4 loss in overall resolution.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I know, i know, strange question coming here:
    I am after a slower pace type of landscape photography.
    If you're like me that's into "large format" style of photography but too lazy too deal with film, a digital field view camera like the Linhof Techno or Arca-Swiss Universalis, Schneider lenses and a 33/39/50MP CCD back will serve you nice. Be prepared though that this *is* slow photography, but still faster and easier than shooting large format film.

    I think the greatest weakness of the A7r combo is the limited choice of T/S lenses. Price is unbeatable though.

    Concerning image quality the older CCDs have their limitations (you need to expose well and shoot at base ISO, and use grads in backlit situations), but if you keep within what they can do, you get great results.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    If you're like me that's into "large format" style of photography but too lazy too deal with film, a digital field view camera like the Linhof Techno or Arca-Swiss Universalis, Schneider lenses and a 33/39/50MP CCD back will serve you nice. Be prepared though that this *is* slow photography, but still faster and easier than shooting large format film.

    I think the greatest weakness of the A7r combo is the limited choice of T/S lenses. Price is unbeatable though.

    Concerning image quality the older CCDs have their limitations (you need to expose well and shoot at base ISO, and use grads in backlit situations), but if you keep within what they can do, you get great results.
    Hi Anders, the truth is that your Kodak CCD sensor is indeed better than the Dalsa CCD sensors in terms of shadow recoverability! I have done some tests and obtained the data, but publishing them might cause some negative impact. PM me if you are interested.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    As said before, TSE do really good, but they don't come close to what people are used to see in techcam world...but again that just pixel peeping..

    I've been using the metabones3 with some flare issue even with the lee wide lenshood, then moved to the metabones4 which is well improved in this regards...no more flare problem.
    I'm still using the lcc feature with the sony and ts lenses, because of the lightfalloff which is sometimes difficult to correct due to the shift...

    Regarding the paralax free shifting, you can go for the hcam master adpater instead of the metabones, as it will allow you to get +/-15mm free paralaxe shift...plus some more cool features..

    For sure the sony sensor have a good shadow recovery much more than my olds leaf...
    And for sure if i could afford it today i would have by an alpa set, and rod lenses to use with a Sony 50mfdb...
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by daf View Post
    As said before, TSE do really good, but they don't come close to what people are used to see in techcam world...but again that just pixel peeping..
    gerald posted some pretty good examples, showing how the TSE's perform on his IQ180. esp. the new TSE 24 is an awesome performer and shouldnt have any problems to shine on the upcoming A9.

    money aside, i would buy me an IQ250 and IQ260 achromatic with rodis.
    but if i had to choose between an mid range older ccd back, and an A9 with TSE's, i would go -wait- with the A9.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by mbn View Post
    gerald posted some pretty good examples, showing how the TSE's perform on his IQ180. esp. the new TSE 24 is an awesome performer and shouldnt have any problems to shine on the upcoming A9.

    money aside, i would buy me an IQ250 and IQ260 achromatic with rodis.
    but if i had to choose between an mid range older ccd back, and an A9 with TSE's, i would go -wait- with the A9.
    Lets hope the A9 will have a clearer and more intuitive user interface than the A7 series (I get along with the A7 user interface but its far from impressing me).

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    I've seen that the TS-E pushes the A7r sensor to its limit, you do get some desaturation issues with large shifts like you can see with the IQ250 with tech lenses. A 50 megapixel sensor will be even more sensitive if Sony has not changed its pixel design. It will probably work well enough for most people, but maybe not without LCC.

    If Canon does announce their 53 megapixel camera next month (haven't I heard that rumor before?) it shall be interesting to see how they have made their pixel design. Or maybe it sits a Sony sensor in it , that would solve the DR problem though... Sony doesn't seem to have cared anything at all about crosstalk but think that everything should be solved by more retrofocus optics.

    In any case, if you're going for the 135 system it may be wise to wait a few months to see what happens. On the other hand you can always sell if you want to upgrade later, compared to what MF gear cost you lose like a lens cap in cost...

    If you're still really into slow shooting and large format style, you can take a look at my Linhof Techno review which goes into details how it is to shoot with such a camera: http://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photo...no-review.html

    I'm an engineer and extremely interested in technology progress in the camera space, write image processing software and so on, but still I feel comfortable with when I do photography to use a bit more old-school gear... it's somehow relaxing and I don't feel the same urge to get the latest when a new fantastic product is released.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Thank you for the interesting link and your experience. The Techno looks really like closest to a field camera. I am not sure yet if I would prefer an Alpa style camera for the smaller size and distance scale or a Techno-style camera, specially I would not want more than 2 max. 3 lenses.
    Maybe I should try to look at a Techno and to handle it to get a feeling about the size and ease of use.


    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I've seen that the TS-E pushes the A7r sensor to its limit, you do get some desaturation issues with large shifts like you can see with the IQ250 with tech lenses. A 50 megapixel sensor will be even more sensitive if Sony has not changed its pixel design. It will probably work well enough for most people, but maybe not without LCC.

    If Canon does announce their 53 megapixel camera next month (haven't I heard that rumor before?) it shall be interesting to see how they have made their pixel design. Or maybe it sits a Sony sensor in it , that would solve the DR problem though... Sony doesn't seem to have cared anything at all about crosstalk but think that everything should be solved by more retrofocus optics.

    In any case, if you're going for the 135 system it may be wise to wait a few months to see what happens. On the other hand you can always sell if you want to upgrade later, compared to what MF gear cost you lose like a lens cap in cost...

    If you're still really into slow shooting and large format style, you can take a look at my Linhof Techno review which goes into details how it is to shoot with such a camera: Review: Linhof Techno

    I'm an engineer and extremely interested in technology progress in the camera space, write image processing software and so on, but still I feel comfortable with when I do photography to use a bit more old-school gear... it's somehow relaxing and I don't feel the same urge to get the latest when a new fantastic product is released.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    As of today, the only medium format digital backs which can deliver dynamic range better than or equal to the A7R are the IQ250, IQ150, Credo 50, CFV-50C, H5D-50C, H5D-200CMS, 645Z, which are all using a 44x33mm Sony CMOS sensor.

    All CCD digital backs will fail if you compare DR against the IMX094 Sony CMOS sensor in the A7R (or D800E/D810).

    I would advise against purchasing any CCD digital back unless you want compatibility with legendary technical camera lenses such like the Schneider 28XL. I would also advise against purchasing an A7R at this stage as a newer model around 50 MP (probably named as A9 or A7R-II) will be announced in the next weeks.

    When pushed, yes the advantage is in favor of the CMOS sensors over CCD, and even so not pushed, but then the advantage is slight. If DR is at the highest priority above all other considerations - and especially if pushing is a necessary or desired frequent occurrence - then weigh in favor of CMOS. But if you're not a pusher, a CCD solution can be perfectly viable.

    While I love the files out of the new CMOS products (MFDB as well as Sony DSLR/Mirrorless), I still find a place for the CCD products and have some preferences in the CCD camp as well.


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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    We can still look at pictures taken with CCD backs, though, can't we?

    I mean, there's no need to delete them all and start all over again.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Hi,

    I see some advantage of CMOS over older CCD technology regarding DR, but I guess that is more about advances in CMOS than CMOS vs. CCD as technology.

    CMOS has a couple of practical advantages over CCD, like high ISO capability due to low readout noise and live view capability.

    The CMOS sensor we have right now has some limitations with large beam angles, present day CCDs are more forgiving.

    I would guess that you can live with both technologies. It is a balance between advantages and disadvantages.

    Just to mention, the A7r has some issues. There is the shutter shock issue, something that will probably resolved in the next generation.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    When pushed, yes the advantage is in favor of the CMOS sensors over CCD, and even so not pushed, but then the advantage is slight. If DR is at the highest priority above all other considerations - and especially if pushing is a necessary or desired frequent occurrence - then weigh in favor of CMOS. But if you're not a pusher, a CCD solution can be perfectly viable.

    While I love the files out of the new CMOS products (MFDB as well as Sony DSLR/Mirrorless), I still find a place for the CCD products and have some preferences in the CCD camp as well.


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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    I see some advantage of CMOS over older CCD technology regarding DR, but I guess that is more about advances in CMOS than CMOS vs. CCD as technology.

    CMOS has a couple of practical advantages over CCD, like high ISO capability due to low readout noise and live view capability.

    The CMOS sensor we have right now has some limitations with large beam angles, present day CCDs are more forgiving.

    I would guess that you can live with both technologies. It is a balance between advantages and disadvantages.

    Just to mention, the A7r has some issues. There is the shutter shock issue, something that will probably resolved in the next generation.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Yeah, I'm just saying, as someone who works with an amazingly wide range of photographers with a huge variety of subjective (and objective?) preferences, that I find absolute statements or opinions don't have much use for me (and I feel, realistically, not for others).

    Yesterday I sold a Leaf Aptus-II 8 in Contax mount to a client. But maybe a Sony A7R would have been better for him, in the opinion of some? Which doesn't matter, because all that matters is what the product can do and whether, in the opinion of the prospective owner, that is the best solution for them and their objectives.


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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    I use both systems these days - Alpa STC with IQ260 & rodies with t/s adapters, and Sony A7r/s/II bodies with native glass and Canon TS-E / metabones IV.

    Are they different in real world use? Yes, significantly. As mentioned the slower more considered shooting approach forced by using the tech camera without some of the newer tools such as live view with focus peaking etc is a factor. DR? For landscape shooting it is manageable by you.

    With the Sony & TS-E lenses, the ability to dial in tilt by zooming in on regions via decent live view and also visualizing focus peak is really engaging and a huge efficiency gain. I don't particularly care for the lens based movements for rise/shift vs body with the STC but you get used to it.

    One thing that I really have challenges with personally is the image aspect ratio. I just don't think 2:3 and I am much more comfortable with MFDB 4:3 or 5:4 ratios; I realize that this is my own personal hangup (yes, yes, I know that I can compose & crop later) but for me it gets in the way when I compose portrait aspect images using the Sony. Coming from the Leica you probably wouldn't have an issue like I do.

    Image quality? From the sensor there is a different look to the files and I'd concede that there is more shadow elasticity from the Sony but expose the IQ2 properly and it can be somewhat moot. I'll leave it to the more techy folks here to delve into the sensor/image quality minutiae but suffice to say that you can print huge files with great colour from either.

    Economics? No brainer. You can buy a complete Sony/Canon TS-E outfit for the price of a Rodie 32 or 90HR. However, you definitely can clearly see the difference at the pixel peeping level between the TS lenses and true tech lenses. Will that translate to prints? well, that depends on you and I suspect your tolerance for knowing that you could be getting better quality at capture time - something that I know for some people will gnaw at your mind.

    Ultimately as Doug & Steve mentioned, you need to get hands on to decide what works for you. Is it purely the end result you are after or is the image capture process important too (I realize that probably sounds quaint). I personally enjoy using my Alpa immensely although I wouldn't mind having some of the automation and live view quality tools that the Sony brings. The new CMOS backs are there now but at a cost.

    I just got back yesterday from a two week shooting trip where I took my Sony kit vs the Alpa/IQ outfit. I enjoyed carrying a smaller camera although overall the Sony outfit was bigger due to more bodies/lenses. However, the overall feeling now I'm home is that I would have enjoyed the experience more with the Alpa, taken less images but probably would have less variety in the shots in the end vs the Sony.

    My $0.02 ... (you get what you pay for )

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    Yeah, I'm just saying, as someone who works with an amazingly wide range of photographers with a huge variety of subjective (and objective?) preferences, that I find absolute statements or opinions don't have much use for me (and I feel, realistically, not for others).

    Yesterday I sold a Leaf Aptus-II 8 in Contax mount to a client. But maybe a Sony A7R would have been better for him, in the opinion of some? Which doesn't matter, because all that matters is what the product can do and whether, in the opinion of the prospective owner, that is the best solution for them and their objectives.


    Steve Hendrix
    Capture Integration
    What Steve said - I couldn't agree more!!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Are people really cross-shopping an A7R and a tech cam? I could see an IQ250 CMOS vs. IQ260 CCD.

    There differences are there and law of diminishing returns holds extremely true. But I just don't think someone goes out thinking of dropping 8K and walks out with 60-80K worth of kit.

    I use both, but under totally different contexts.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    one of the reasons i went to the V-blads, rollei, systems was the joy of viewing in the GG, made so much better with 4x5, compared to peeping into that little hole in my Nikon, at the time.

    now the MFD tech cameras are basically blind, and the sony AR7 has a viewing screen similar to the old 6x6 GG.

    so i went with the v-system again (still has the GG; after all it is an SLR) and am moving to the Cambo Actus with the CFV50c CMOS, which has real live view.

    still use the A7R with canon T/S wides, but that makes a kit as big as the blad. at least you don't have to wind it.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Okay, I'm different, and also a 4x5 film user, but if you want that contemplative experience without the insane cost and planned obsolescence of MFD. Get a DP merril and the foveon sensor

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by johnnygoesdigital View Post
    Okay, I'm different, and also a 4x5 film user, but if you want that contemplative experience without the insane cost and planned obsolescence of MFD. Get a DP merril and the foveon sensor
    Well ... since you mention it - heck, I even use a Zone VI spot meter: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/613476-post2.html

    There are several tech camera users who also have the Sigmas as a small alternative/complement. I use them with a Hoodman Loupe almost like a view camera but I really wish that it had movements.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Are people really cross-shopping an A7R and a tech cam? I could see an IQ250 CMOS vs. IQ260 CCD.

    There differences are there and law of diminishing returns holds extremely true. But I just don't think someone goes out thinking of dropping 8K and walks out with 60-80K worth of kit.

    I use both, but under totally different contexts.
    I sometimes try to think not in certain categories but out of the box.
    I know that the images from my Leica S look different than those from the M than those from the A7II. However it has a lot to do with transition from sharp to unsharp, color as well for some part. Assuming the A7r has smoother color transition than the A7II and sharper pixels, and also assuming that in landscapes one often shoots with deep DOF (so bokeh and sharpness transition is not really pronounced) - I wondered if there is that much of a difference (Even though I think I do expect that a difference is visible).

    And since using the A7r with TS would mean to 1)place camera on tripod and level, adjust focus and T/S if needed, mirror up and then expose it seemed that the process of taking the image might not be that different to using a tech camera, with the one difference to have a good lifeview on the display of the Sony.
    On the other side the A7 are so (over)loaded with buttons and functions and the camera + adapter + TS looks far from balanced
    but the alpa looks so technically beautiful - how much would that influence the shooting experience.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Yeah, I don't mean to diss MFD, there's something to be said for that format. The Alpa can also take a film adapter, but the foveon's are that good...seriously.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Thank you for the interesting link and your experience. The Techno looks really like closest to a field camera. I am not sure yet if I would prefer an Alpa style camera for the smaller size and distance scale or a Techno-style camera, specially I would not want more than 2 max. 3 lenses.
    Maybe I should try to look at a Techno and to handle it to get a feeling about the size and ease of use.
    A view camera is more of an advantage the more lenses you got, both concerning economy and size/weight. With only two lenses it's probably not an advantage in either cost or weight. I got seven Digitar lenses myself, and I use all lenses, I work with different framings and perspectives and find it more pleasing to create in camera than to crop a lot in post. I think the total cost of all those lenses was less than a single Rodie 32 for alpa, but then I only bought the 60XL new. I think the system I have today is the most cost effective MFD tech system you can get, and with a 50 megapixel back I'm certainly not far behind the best image quality you can get in MFD.

    The simpler Alpa cameras are quite limited in movements, while a field view camera will give you full movement range including tilt and swing for all lenses.

    I think a danger of the simpler pancake cameras with only one-two lenses is that you end up with something that's not really that different from an A7r, the only difference being resolution. And then you get stuck in the resolution race, you feel an urge to upgrade to "keep the distance" from 135 cameras.

    While there are examples of people using both A7r and say a 39 megapixel MFD basic pancake system simultaneously, most have very high end MFD systems to separate them enough.

    An advantage with the view camera I think it's so different, that's why I like to call it "large format" style. I have a DSLR system too, but I don't shoot landscapes with it, I shoot action and people. The view camera takes me into a different mindset, one I like to have when making landscape pictures.

    I know all this is very fuzzy and emotional, but if you only want MFD for performance and not for the handling, and you're also interested in keeping costs down, then MFD is bad news. You'll then be forever hunted by better and better performing 135 systems, forcing you to do frequent and very costly upgrades. If you instead consider the absolute performance and like the handling of the system you can stay one step below the highest end and gain from that it's relatively easy to get such gear second hand.

  26. #26
    Senior Member danlindberg's Avatar
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    I wondered about user experience between a A7r with a 24mm TS lens (or additionally 17mm later) on a tripod vs an Alpa STC (or other tech cam) combined with an older back (Hasselblad 39 MP) and equivalent lens.
    I bought the A7r to use with my old stables of FDn lenses. A family cam and not intended for any commercial use. Since I also have a few Hassy V lenses I was interested in trying out these with the Sony. I did get the Mirex tilt/shift to have a go with my (much loved) Cfe 40/4 IF for more serious landscapes. Yes, it works. Result is nice and files up for printing quite big. However, the feeling in the workflow is definitely not my cup of tea. The menu system is driving me nuts. It still takes me minutes to find where the heck I format the card...I get overwhelmed with buttons and menus high and low. Being a traditional photog this 'modern' (I'm sure most modern dslr's are the same) takes away my inspiration and the feeling I am not in control. Only God knows if the boxes I want to be ticked in fact are ticked!
    I bought the A7r when it was released and I have less then 500 exposures on it - that alone should tell you how happy I am using it! (not really)
    But obviously I have to admit that a body + a tse24 + adaptor is about the same money as a single good second hand tech lens alone.

    Having my flagship back in service has forced me to dust of my trusty 22mp fat pixel back that has not seen use for a long time. This sensor is, I'm not sure, but I think 10 year old technology? It is a fixed iso25 (already at iso50 noise is terrible), it can only expose for a few seconds before noise is introduced, DR is terrible in comparison to the Sony. So it is quite limiting and since I like shooting longish exposures with ND it is far from ideal.
    However, as with everything I own, I work out what the strengths are and seek scenes and light that enhance this strengths. I can honestly say that the depth, the 3D feel, is incredible and colours at capture are natural and very filmlike.
    You must be careful to get the correct exposure even in ideal situations, there is no margin for pushing anything, better if scene admits, bracket and blend in post.

    Tomorrow I am going up a mountain on a dirttrack with my 4x4. Bringing as little as possible because it is not unusual that I find something in the distance, a shooting point where I cannot drive so a light bag is a good bag. Do you think I am debating if I am taking the A7r + 40/4 IF or The TC + 72 L + Aptus? No, the A7r has not even crossed my mind. Not for a second.

    For me it is a world apart in feel and I thrive in the workflow. It inspires, it even challange me in its shortcomings. I compose without a view finder even with movements, I guess exposure, I often guess distance (if not closeup).

    I know my point of view is very personal and not shared by everyone, but since this is not your primary system, I would without hesitation get an STC, a lens of preference and an older back. Its all about the process!
    Alpa FPS • MAX • TC | Alpagon 32Hr | Helvetar 75 | Schneider 120N | Leaf Aptus II 5 • Leaf Credo 60 | www.danlindberg.com
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    I had the tech camera, had to sell and go back to DSLR.

    I bought a D810, good glass and all the rest. But there was something missing. Sure the files were lovely, but it all felt a bit too clinical to me. I could push the shadows, my live view was amazing and sped everything up, my RRS pano rig got the job done nicely, but it all lacked soul for want of a better word.

    So I sold it all for a P45+ and a Cambo. Now I set up my shot using the ground glass, I think far more about my framing and composition and I take my sweet time. My camera doesn't meter for me, my focusing is getting better, and my photography is better because I am enjoying shooting again.

    There is no sane reasoning for this. My Nikon kit would have been the envy of most photographers. But after shooting with a tech camera I was hooked, and would not go back again. Sure the back is old and "only" has 12-13 odd stops of DR, but the files are all I need and the experience can't be matched.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    I had the tech camera, had to sell and go back to DSLR.

    I bought a D810, good glass and all the rest. But there was something missing. Sure the files were lovely, but it all felt a bit too clinical to me. I could push the shadows, my live view was amazing and sped everything up, my RRS pano rig got the job done nicely, but it all lacked soul for want of a better word.

    So I sold it all for a P45+ and a Cambo. Now I set up my shot using the ground glass, I think far more about my framing and composition and I take my sweet time. My camera doesn't meter for me, my focusing is getting better, and my photography is better because I am enjoying shooting again.

    There is no sane reasoning for this. My Nikon kit would have been the envy of most photographers. But after shooting with a tech camera I was hooked, and would not go back again. Sure the back is old and "only" has 12-13 odd stops of DR, but the files are all I need and the experience can't be matched.
    It would be interesting to see some RAW files for side by side comparison between the D810 and the P45+

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    ....
    I know all this is very fuzzy and emotional, but if you only want MFD for performance and not for the handling, and you're also interested in keeping costs down, then MFD is bad news. You'll then be forever hunted by better and better performing 135 systems, forcing you to do frequent and very costly upgrades. If you instead consider the absolute performance and like the handling of the system you can stay one step below the highest end and gain from that it's relatively easy to get such gear second hand.
    It is more the opposit: I would want the Tech Cam more for the handling. I have some experience with 22 and 33 MP older backs and also with the S2 36MP sensor and I really believe that on a tech cam where I would mostly use a tripod anyways (so I can shoot at base iso) a older 39MP back should be more than enough. Also the new high end backs ... I cant justify for my hobby use. They just loose value to fast to much. If live view was working very good, this would be a reason, but just IQ I am sure an older bakc would suit me well. (At the moment I have an offer for a CF-39 + Alpa STC+ 36mm all ready to use for an attractive price) I am not ready to spend 20 or 30 k just for a back alone, and I know from my Leica S I dont need more MP.
    Last edited by Paratom; 29th January 2015 at 09:36.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    It would be interesting to see some RAW files for side by side comparison between the D810 and the P45+
    I would love to mate but I no longer own the D810. I had to sell the lot to get back into MF.

    So far I have no complaints from the P45+ and my post wasn't about whether it is better than the D810 or not, more about how I enjoy tech camera shooting so much more. It really does make me a lot happier and gets me out shooting more.

    It's not something rational, and something that can't be measured and compared. It's far more personal than that.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    I would love to mate but I no longer own the D810. I had to sell the lot to get back into MF.

    So far I have no complaints from the P45+ and my post wasn't about whether it is better than the D810 or not, more about how I enjoy tech camera shooting so much more. It really does make me a lot happier and gets me out shooting more.

    It's not something rational, and something that can't be measured and compared. It's far more personal than that.
    I was happy with my IQ260 until I did a side by side comparison between the IQ260 and the D800E. I could no longer top-up faith to keep using the IQ260 when it is clearly inferior in many aspects, including the most important part - the image quality for long exposure, at pixel peeping level. The purpose was defeated.

    Sometimes it's better not to know the truth. The one telling the truth against common sense may get burnt alive.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Gee - if you can get the STC, lens and a back for $10k, go for it. Wonderful deal.

    I just came back from a trip to Hawaii, taking a Sony RX1 and a MF setup (Leaf 33mp back). The RX1 sensor is similar, but probably not exactly the same as the A7 setup. There is no doubt for many situations, the RX1 is just lovely - and does wonderfully in poor light, high light, ease of use and many other features. The RX1 makes great big screen images.

    However, for art shots of landscape, true keepers, the MF setup is working at another level. When you get it right, the MFDB allows for super prints. Mind you, not all of them work - there are many that are just not there. It demands good technique.

    Why are they better? I don't know - maybe its using a tripod, getting up early and bringing more concentration with the heavier, cumbersome gear. Or perhaps its looking through a GG that slows you down, makes you think. Maybe its the lens, although the Zeiss on the RX1 is pretty darn good. Or maybe its that back, with extra care in its design, probably more cooling, CCD, and shooting at lower ISO. Maybe its C1 (not LR) for processing, but I doubt that its one. Maybe its all this together. Some time back, there was a test comparing a new Canon TS lens against a wide angle tech camera, and it was pretty amazing - the Canon did really well. So my guess is its not just the lens, but the larger setup, the whole workflow.

    There is a difference - small detail and texture is alive in the MFDB setup and it never ceases to amaze every-once in a while when you get it right.
    Last edited by Geoff; 29th January 2015 at 02:44.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    I recently upgraded from 33 to 50 megapixels. I still have both backs and I'd like to do some more field testing (it's a bad time of year for me, don't get out shooting very often now) but 99.9% sure I will keep the new and sell the old.

    The truth is however that resolution-wise the upgrade is pretty small. You don't experience a resolution upgrade as 50/33=67% more resolution, but rather how much extra you get on the side which is 25%. What I get though is a bit less aliasing at f/16, better quality at "long" exposure (it does well up to 128 sec), even better wide angle compatibility (although the 33 Dalsa is perfectly okay in that regard).

    I like to shoot "intimate landscapes" and really it's hard to say that you get more detail... to me resolution on the sensor is more about less artifacts so you can make huge prints without any digital artifacts showing.

    I shall confess though that there is a little bit of 4x5" jealousy in the picture too, while most consider 33 to be a little bit low compared to 4x5", 50 is past the breakpoint considering "grain-free" resolution, and that kind of feels better when I have a shooting style which is similar to what you would do with a 4x5" camera. In the future I'd like to have like 200-400 megapixels to really outresolve the optical system so there's no trace whatsoever of digital artifacts in the image, but that's about image smoothness more than resolving power.

    Recently I saw Jimmy Nelson's great exhibition "Before They Pass Away", there's an excellent web site too BEFORE THEY PASS AWAY

    That was to me an example where resolving power does count, he has shot detailed group portraits and printed them very large, presented in a way so you can walk up close and look at each separate face. He shot it using 4x5", and although the images do look great it wouldn't hurt if they were shot on 8x10", you do see the limits of the resolving power in the huge exhibition prints.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Thank you for all the further thoughts and experiences.
    I have decided to get the used STC and CF-39 since it gives me the opportunity to experience it myself. And in case I would not like it (which is not my plan) I should be able to not have lost too much money. By the way this was Euro not $ but I still think I got a fair price.

    I might also have the opportunity to go to a Linhof workshop in April for large format photography so maybe I will have a chance their to also handle a Techno.

    Special thanks to Torger for the Link to "BEFORE THEY PASS AWAY" - Wow, impressive and wonderful images.

    I will report back when I have taken the first image with the equipment.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    . . . . .
    I have decided to get the used STC and CF-39 since it gives me the opportunity to experience it myself. And in case I would not like it (which is not my plan) I should be able to not have lost too much money. By the way this was Euro not $ but I still think I got a fair price.
    . . . . . .

    Welcome to the ALPA-LAND in Dante's nirvana . You have arrived .
    Regards . Jürgen .
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Welcome to the ALPA-LAND in Dante's nirvana . You have arrived .
    Thank You.
    As long as it doesnt lead me to want a new back in 3 months I am fine.

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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Thank you for all the further thoughts and experiences.
    I have decided to get the used STC and CF-39 since it gives me the opportunity to experience it myself. And in case I would not like it (which is not my plan) I should be able to not have lost too much money. By the way this was Euro not $ but I still think I got a fair price.

    I might also have the opportunity to go to a Linhof workshop in April for large format photography so maybe I will have a chance their to also handle a Techno.

    Special thanks to Torger for the Link to "BEFORE THEY PASS AWAY" - Wow, impressive and wonderful images.

    I will report back when I have taken the first image with the equipment.
    Great choice. On my last trip, I took my D800E and the tech cam. Pulled the D800E out once. As many have said here, while the IQ is better with the tech cam, the bigger factor for me is the mindset. Agreed it is all in my head, but if it makes my output better, that is enough for me.

    I am also finding that lots of locations we go to have been photographed thousands of times. I want to be different, offer a different perspective, a different look to the scene. I find the tech cam affords me this.
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    Re: A7r + Canon TS vs Alp STC

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Welcome to the ALPA-LAND in Dante's nirvana . You have arrived .
    Jürgen, I see you have 39 and 50 MP backs. Do you use boths? Is there a certain reason to own 2 backs?
    Regards, Tom

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