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DxO P45+ test: Let the Games Begin

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
I think it really is for light gathering than corner sharpness. That has always been the intention of the micro lenses was to gather light. But has nothing to do with actually sharpness of lenses

As the development of electronic products such as digital cameras and scanners progresses, the demand for image sensors increases accordingly. In general, image sensors in common usage nowadays are divided into two main categories: charge coupled device (CCD) sensors and CMOS image sensors (CIS). The use of micro-lenses significantly improves the photosensitivity of the image sensors by collecting light from a large light collecting area and focusing it onto a small photosensitive area such as a photodiode

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7473522.html
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
I think it really is for light gathering than corner sharpness. That has always been the intention of the micro lenses was to gather light. But has nothing to do with actually sharpness of lenses

As the development of electronic products such as digital cameras and scanners progresses, the demand for image sensors increases accordingly. In general, image sensors in common usage nowadays are divided into two main categories: charge coupled device (CCD) sensors and CMOS image sensors (CIS). The use of micro-lenses significantly improves the photosensitivity of the image sensors by collecting light from a large light collecting area and focusing it onto a small photosensitive area such as a photodiode

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7473522.html
Basically micro lenses allow you to capture the light that otherwise would have fallen inbetween the photodiodes which are actually light-sensitive. Depending on the sensor the part of any given pixel's worth of area on the chip which was sensitive to light may only be 70% of the linear size (or half the area). By adding a micro lens the input size of which is the entire size of the "pixel" and funneling that into the the half of the area which is sensitive to light you maximize the number of photons you collect which means that for any given numerical ISO you have better signal-to-noise than you would have for the same sensor made without micro lenses.

To summarize the technical blah blah the micro lenses on the P30+ mean that at ISO 100 you have the image quality as the P45+ at ISO50 (though the later has more resolution because of the larger chip).

Even those getting down to the technical level of what micron size the "effective" pixels are can miss the fact that not the entire "effective" pixel gathers light. The jump from the P25+ to P45+ (both near-full-frame sensors at 22 and 39 megapixels respectively) was able to be made, in part because while the "effective" area of the pixel was reduced from 9 to 6.8 micron the are of the pixel which gathered light was kept roughly the same by shrinking (and modernizing) the electronics package which sits next to the pixel (and which is not sensitive to light). Throw in a superior path-to-Raw (the AD convertor, physical wiring, heat sinking, and black frame technology) and the dynamic range was actually increased (modestly but measurably) despite the decrease in "effective" pixel size.

For this and many other reasons not all pixels are created equal. I really wish a lot of this was more strait forward and could be easily and quickly explained without significant background knowledge. DxO tests have two problems; 1) they try to reduce the very multi-faceted element of IQ/noise/ISO to a single number and 2) they ignore the very large number of elements outside of the sensor.

Guys like Bob and I spend most of every day with this technical stuff and neither of us will claim to know half of what we need to to really, truly, fully understand why MFD handled correctly consistently outperforms dSLRs handled correctly.

That's why the company I work for, Capture Integration, spends so much time and money getting gear into people's hands for them to actually shoot. As with when we brought a full suite of gear for the Moab workshop. You really have to shoot it yourself (aided by advice from someone with lots of MFD experience) to see why people regularly drop $10-50k on gear which may share numerical attributes with gear which is $2-9k. The 5DII and P25+ may share the same resolution number, and the 5DII may be the best camera ever produced at that price point, but they are not even remotely in the same league.

*sigh* goes back to answering tech calls

Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
 
You can read about their method here and here
Thanks Yair for the link.

Still not 100% sure how they are doing their 'analyzing'.

If they are working directly off the RAW file (Hasselblad, Leaf, Phase One etc) then they are not getting the whole picture as they do not know how we, the companies, work with that data.

The 3F file in our case is not the be all and end all. Much is done in the software which would affect finite image quality.

Best,


David
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Doug:

Do the Phase backs that have micro lenses, angle them as they reach the edge of the sensor like Kodak did for Leica in the M8 and DMR sensors? I think that is the difference Guy is forgetting.

Robert
 

robsteve

Subscriber
Robert you should not need micro lenses on the sensor to have corner sharpness.
Guy:

I meant angled micro lenses, where they are tilted to match the oblique angle of light coming in at the edges. I don't know if any of the other digital backs have them other than the DMR. The M8 has them too.

Think of the photo site on the sensor like the head of a strike anywhere wooden match. The light coming out of a wide angle on the edges of the sensor would be hitting the side of the match head, where it is not so sensitive to lighting. A micro lens is then put on top of it but tilted towards the center of the sensor to gather this light coming in at an oblique angle and redirect it down onto the top of the match, where it is more sensitive.

Robert
 

Guy Mancuso

Administrator, Instructor
Doug:

Do the Phase backs that have micro lenses, angle them as they reach the edge of the sensor like Kodak did for Leica in the M8 and DMR sensors? I think that is the difference Guy is forgetting.

Robert
The P30 Plus has micro lenses as well as the P21 plus
 

John Black

Active member
Why is this so surprising? It seems that the DxO tests only represent a single dimension and doesn t factor in size of the sensor in any meaningful way. Isn t it closer to comparing films .You could use the exact same film in both 35mm and 2 1/4.....and immediately see the difference . They really doesn t seems to be any way to compare different sensor sizes..but within a group it looks pretty accurate. Reminds me of the old lens tests ...didn t the original zeiss lens on the Hasselblad look weak compared to the Leica glass?
Even if a dSLR matched or surpassed a medium format CCD, the MF sensor will always have this key advantage. For my needs the larger sensor (negative) is the only reason to shoot medium format. A 200mm lens on a 48x36mm sensor has a very different look and feel than the same lens mounted on a 1Ds3 (via adapter).

I suspect CCD's capture more dynamic range if the measurement is bounded by saying all three channels must NOT clip. DxO's measurement doesn't care if two channels clipped, so long as 1 channel is still holding data - that's DR. That doesn't mean it's good (or useful) dynamic range. DxO's results would be more helpful if they showed the 3 RGB channels on chart similar to a C1 RGB histogram. Talking about dynamic range as a single, composite number is misleading.
 

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Are they angled at the edges of the sensor?

Robert
Not sure about that Robert, but the primary purpose of their design is to enhance light gathering capability, which allows for cleaner high ISO, and coincidentally faster throuput because of the cleaner signal.


Steve Hendrix
Phase One
 
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