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Thread: Should I or not?

  1. #201
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Having shot the 17TS-E on the FPS and the 23HR on my Alpa I can attest to the fact that the corner distortions are absolute quantum leaps apart. The 23HR by comparison seems like a rectilinear corrected lens vs a fisheye in the corners.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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  2. #202
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Do you guys really use 23mm tilted or shifted a lot when doing landscapes? Isn't this more for indoor and architecture?
    For my taste FF 21mm FOV is quite wide already for landscape use, and the 24 Super Elmar on the S or the 21/3.4 on the M or the Zeiss21/2.8 do fine IMO in regards of corner performance.
    I am not talking against Tech Cams (and as some here know I recently bought an Alpa TCS) but I think we can not say that there were no sufficient wide angle lenses for "non-tech" cameras.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    It's really a point and shoot lens. You only get 2 or 3mm of movement which is not much and you can only use tilt via a tech cam with the body as for like Cambo mount you can't get it in tilt.

    Nice lens but also flares really bad if your not careful.

    The canon 17mm TSE you can 12mm with shifting and you can tilt.

    To me the 17 is more versatile
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Do you guys really use 23mm tilted or shifted a lot when doing landscapes? Isn't this more for indoor and architecture?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    It's really a point and shoot lens. You only get 2 or 3mm of movement which is not much and you can only use tilt via a tech cam with the body as for like Cambo mount you can't get it in tilt.

    Nice lens but also flares really bad if your not careful.

    The canon 17mm TSE you can 12mm with shifting and you can tilt.

    To me the 17 is more versatile
    In landscape orientation for the digital back, the 23HR on the crop sensor IQ250 can shift at least 12mm before hitting the edge of the image circle. Desaturation-wise 9mm shift is totally usable in most cases. For mazing-free shots 6mm shift is safe.

    For landscape shots I also like the shift capability for perspective control to prevent the trees from leaning. 6mm shift of the 23HR on the IQ250 gets the skyline to the golden ratio place in your frame. Nice and perfect.

    Flare is bad when sun or light source is above the lens right out of the image circle. I usually shoot directly against the sun so I have little flare issues.

    You get tilt and swing capability with the 23HR only if you choose Arca. Alpa or Cambo can't do that. This function is important if you don't focus bracket but want some sharp foreground close.

    If you stitch, then both the 23HR and the 32HR gives about 14mm equivalent in 35mm format, while the 17 TS-E gives 11mm equivalent in 35mm format. Parallax could be a problem with the 17 TS-E when you stitch interior with some close foreground.

  5. #205
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    Re: Should I or not?

    I was speaking for FF backs like the IQ260. I shot a whole workshop with just this one lens. It was kind of fun.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    I was speaking for FF backs like the IQ260. I shot a whole workshop with just this one lens. It was kind of fun.
    I purchased the 23HR right after I saw your comparison between the 28HR and the 28SK. I guess it was that you added some "magic" to make these tech lenses look beautiful. Coincidence I could imagine that one day this forum would be raided by wives of photographers
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Heck you buy these lenses at these big pricing and they start thinking bigger diamonds. Lol

    Fair warning these Rodie's are not exactly considered cheap to buy but they are outstanding.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Having shot the 17TS-E on the FPS and the 23HR on my Alpa I can attest to the fact that the corner distortions are absolute quantum leaps apart.
    And so is the price!

    RS 23HR 3950 GBP
    Canon 17TS-E 1400 GBP

    I don't know how any photographer could say a bad word againt the Canon 17TS-E as its a wonderful piece of glass by any standards, RS 23HR included.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    I've been waiting for a long time until my patience has run out!
    Are you kidding me the IQ180 is not good enough to make landscape photography?
    The IQ180 + tech cam and lenses can give you the best pictures you can imagine. Even the IQ180+DF+Phase One/Mamiya lenses can give you enough IQ that you can print as big as you want to. Dynamic range is more than I want especially if you use graduated neutral density, bracketing and your brain.
    If you want to shoot night photography, get another Nikon D800/810 with one lens. No camera is perfect. CMOS or non-CMOS, I've had them all. I can't see the difference in image quality. I like to look at the print more than the monitor. You don't need to shoot to the sun to get good pictures! I won't buy CMOS camera because of this reason. If your main work is fashion/fast shooting or night photography, CMOS may suit you. But for landscape photography, you don't need it although you may want it.
    Galen Rowell made pictures with his old Nikons. Michael Kenna uses his old Hasselblad film cameras to make pictures. Some pictures are not even sharp. Dynamic range, sharpness, CMOS etc. are not everything in photography. Many people may forget about these.
    Please go out shooting and show me your images! I want to see more images in GetDPI forums than hearing complaints and excuses.

    Best regards,

    Pramote
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    And so is the price!

    RS 23HR 3950 GBP
    Canon 17TS-E 1400 GBP

    I don't know how any photographer could say a bad word againt the Canon 17TS-E as its a wonderful piece of glass by any standards, RS 23HR included.
    I can live with the corner sharpness of the 17 TS-E if I do focus bracketing to offset the field curvature in the corner, but the size of the ND filter is a little bit difficult for me to justify for long trips

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Dynamic range is more than I want especially if you use graduated neutral density, bracketing and your brain.
    Hi, ND grad or bracketing didn't work for me. It was discussed here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...tml#post627476
    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    If you want to shoot night photography, get another Nikon D800/810 with one lens.
    True, but that greatly increases the package weight for long trips. If you don't shoot long exposure (which is not the strong point of the IQ180 anyway) then most of the time a flat (rectilinear) stitching wouldn't cause troubles, and in this case stitching with the IQ150 you get the same / similar number of pixels as if you stitch with an IQ180.

  12. #212
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    You can use a 4x4 ND with the lee filter system but you limited to about 5 or 6 mm of shift before you start to vignette. It's not a total solution but if your mostly just doing rise and fall than its acceptable. Given its 17mm you not doing a bunch of stitching anyway. This is a wide lens. The nice part is they have a special filter ring for the 17 and the foundation kit. Now if you have the 24mm TSE you just need a 82 wide angle ring and the 4x4 filters you can go maximum stitch with no issues
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  13. #213
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You can use a 4x4 ND with the lee filter system but you limited to about 5 or 6 mm of shift before you start to vignette. It's not a total solution but if your mostly just doing rise and fall than its acceptable. Given its 17mm you not doing a bunch of stitching anyway. This is a wide lens. The nice part is they have a special filter ring for the 17 and the foundation kit. Now if you have the 24mm TSE you just need a 82 wide angle ring and the 4x4 filters you can go maximum stitch with no issues
    Tried that Lee filter system on the 17 TS-E before, on 5D3, IQ250 and IQ260. I could only do 4mm rise on the 5D3 without vignetting.

    Below shows that the Lee (Big Stopper in this case) is not usable when the 17 TS-E is mounted on a crop sensor IQ250, so I had to give it up. Light leakage was also an issue.


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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post

    I'm not a fan of the Dalsa CCD sensors so I see it the other way around. I regard this ISO 35 setting a "drawback" instead of an advantage, because anything below ISO 100 on the IQ180 is just extended ISO, and Phase One is not honest enough to comment that these are extended ISO as Canon or Nikon does. This ISO 35 is purely a marketing hype. You will not get better image if you shoot at ISO 35 than you shoot at ISO 100 at the same shutter speed and aperture. The real lowest native ISO setting on the IQ180 is indeed ISO 100. From ISO 100 and onward (above) on the IQ180 the actually measured ISO is significantly below the claimed ISO, making it a poor choice for scenes where light is dim and shutter speed is a constraint (e.g. the OP's situation). The only possible advantage of having a measured ISO well below the manufacturer claimed ISO is to increase the exposure time without blowing out highlight, but long exposure is not the strength of the IQ180 or any other Dalsa CCD sensors.

    Below shows my tests at ISO 35 and ISO 100 at the same shutter speed and aperture. The shadow SNR stays the same. The highlight details are also the same.
    Thank you Void, that was really an eye-opener.

    Are you saying that there is NO advantage in setting the IQ180 at ISO below 100? Is the noise any different (I know you mentioned SNR and therefore I assume it is)? So if the correct exposure time at ISO 35 is 40 seconds (as measured by the histogram on the back), you mean I could set it to ISO 100 at say 15 seconds and still have the same exposure and noise levels? That would make a huge difference right there.

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Interesting on the A7r it can do about 6. Did you use there adapter filter ring. Agree not a total solution for sure but for me it was enough since I used it more for rise and fall than stitching.

    Here is that ring.

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...for_canon.html
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    Thank you Void, that was really an eye-opener.

    Are you saying that there is NO advantage in setting the IQ180 at ISO below 100? Is the noise any different (I know you mentioned SNR and therefore I assume it is)? So if the correct exposure time at ISO 35 is 40 seconds (as measured by the histogram on the back), you mean I could set it to ISO 100 at say 15 seconds and still have the same exposure and noise levels? That would make a huge difference right there.
    Even if there was a difference it be very minimal . I never tested the two ISOs against each other but ISO 100 works great on the 180. After ISO 100 though all bets are off
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    I want to express I didn't aim at anyone. I want to express your analysis about CMOS is the best I've ever read and I really appreciate and enjoy it. I've had both Pextax 645Z and IQ180 and I see your point. However, I've also had some disagreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi, ND grad or bracketing didn't work for me. It was discussed here: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...tml#post627476


    True, but that greatly increases the package weight for long trips. If you don't shoot long exposure (which is not the strong point of the IQ180 anyway) then most of the time a flat (rectilinear) stitching wouldn't cause troubles, and in this case stitching with the IQ150 you get the same / similar number of pixels as if you stitch with an IQ180.
    Bracketing and GND always worked for me and have been working for decades.

    Cambo+Rodie 40mm+(Rodie 90mm)+Nikon D810 (or lighter Sony A7R) +24mm+70-200mm f/4 do not weigh much at all for long hike. They will cover almost any landscape photography, night and day although I usually don't pack the Nikon except if I want to take night photography. In this case another Rodie 23mm is still very light.

    And the 80mp is significantly larger than 50mp.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    Thank you Void, that was really an eye-opener.

    Are you saying that there is NO advantage in setting the IQ180 at ISO below 100? Is the noise any different (I know you mentioned SNR and therefore I assume it is)? So if the correct exposure time at ISO 35 is 40 seconds (as measured by the histogram on the back), you mean I could set it to ISO 100 at say 15 seconds and still have the same exposure and noise levels? That would make a huge difference right there.
    The histogram cannot be trusted. It was described here.

    ISO 35 and 40 seconds would give you much cleaner shadow than ISO 100 and 15 seconds, but ISO 100 and 15 seconds would give you 1.5 stops more highlight details.

    ISO 35 and 40 seconds would give you the same image quality as ISO 100 and 40 seconds. You will see that the histogram and highlight warnings in the playback inside the camera warn you that you've blown out more highlights, but that warning is not accurate. The highlight details are still there when you do post-processing or check by Raw Digger.

    ISO 35 is just one thing to suggest the photographer to do ETTR. It's essentially the same thing as ISO 32 in Nikon D810.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 1st March 2015 at 23:22. Reason: Wrong numbers

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Are you kidding me the IQ180 is not good enough to make landscape photography?
    The IQ180 + tech cam and lenses can give you the best pictures you can imagine. Even the IQ180+DF+Phase One/Mamiya lenses can give you enough IQ that you can print as big as you want to.
    I think you've missed the point of all this discussion as its never been in dispute what an IQ180 is capable of and this possibly is why at some points this topid has got a little heated as peopld are looking at this far to personally.

    The OP doesn't like using his IQ180 and finds if far to limiting for his capture needs and quality expectations compared to their Canon equipment.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Interesting on the A7r it can do about 6. Did you use there adapter filter ring. Agree not a total solution for sure but for me it was enough since I used it more for rise and fall than stitching.

    Here is that ring.

    LEE Filters Adapter Ring for Canon 17mm TS-E Lens AR17TSE B&H
    Yes it's this ring. I sold it after I tried it. :S

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Bracketing and GND always worked for me and have been working for decades.
    Then perhaps I could ask you to have a look into that post and download my RAW files and help me have a look?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    And the 80mp is significantly larger than 50mp.
    When you do stitching by movements on a technical camera you fully utilize the whole image circle of a lens. The IQ150 has a smaller sensor, but the pixel density is about the same as an IQ180. For example if you stitch on the 40HR lens, you get about 130 MP on the IQ180, but you also get about 130 MP on the IQ150.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Cambo+Rodie 40mm+(Rodie 90mm)+Nikon D810 (or lighter Sony A7R) +24mm+70-200mm f/4 do not weigh much at all for long hike.
    I have to admire your strong body. For me I even gave up the Alpa MAX and picked the Alpa STC. I might eventually end up with an A7R-II or A9 with a Canon TS-E and a Sigma 24mm f1.4 Art for long trips.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I think you've missed the point of all this discussion as its never been in dispute what an IQ180 is capable of and this possibly is why at some points this topid has got a little heated as peopld are looking at this far to personally.

    The OP doesn't like using his IQ180 and finds if far to limiting for his capture needs and quality expectations compared to their Canon equipment.
    It is not personal. I've had several MFDB, not only IQ180. I've enjoyed trying them all. I sold and bought the IQ180 back. At the current price point, it is a very attractive MFDB. I've just want to make a point that changing the MFDB will only cost you money. You've already had the best MFDB and the new CMOS back will not give you any better images.

    To me, for landscape photography except night photography, the IQ180 is more than enough.

    However, medium format is not for everyone. There are lots of limitations. It is not Canon or Nikon for sure. Take it or leave it.
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 1st March 2015 at 07:06.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I have to admire your strong body. For me I even gave up the Alpa MAX and picked the Alpa STC. I might eventually end up with an A7R-II or A9 with a Canon TS-E and a Sigma 24mm f1.4 Art for long trips.
    As I said, I usually pack only one system, most commonly IQ180, Cambo, Rodie 23mm or 40mm and Rodie 90mm or SK 60XL.

    I am a small Asian guy. I used to pack more than these in old day. I believe any dedicated landscape photographer can handle these.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Do you guys really use 23mm tilted or shifted a lot when doing landscapes? Isn't this more for indoor and architecture?
    For my taste FF 21mm FOV is quite wide already for landscape use, and the 24 Super Elmar on the S or the 21/3.4 on the M or the Zeiss21/2.8 do fine IMO in regards of corner performance.
    I am not talking against Tech Cams (and as some here know I recently bought an Alpa TCS) but I think we can not say that there were no sufficient wide angle lenses for "non-tech" cameras.
    I use it exclusively for landscapes and with 1 deg of tilt @f8-9, and tripod about 5.5-6ft, the DoF is maximized at HFD. Sharp into the corners. Only issue is watching for the nasty red flare, and sometimes it is only after I load it up in C1 that I notice it, so well after I can do anything about it.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    When you do stitching by movements on a technical camera you fully utilize the whole image circle of a lens. The IQ150 has a smaller sensor, but the pixel density is about the same as an IQ180. For example if you stitch on the 40HR lens, you get about 130 MP on the IQ180, but you also get about 130 MP on the IQ150.[/QUOTE]

    As a landscape photographer, I prefer full frame. I haven't always stitched. I also take either a single frame or panning, therefore, 80mp is 80mp and 50mp is 50mp.
    Although 50mp is very fine for landscape photography, the price of IQ180 is very attractive compared to the new CMOS back. It has more mp and fantastic dynamic range.
    If I've already owned the IQ180, I'd think twice of trading to the 50mp-CMOS DB.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I am confused now. Am I right the IQ150 is not full frame? As a landscape photographer, I prefer full frame. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
    I haven't always stitched. I also take either a single frame or panning, therefore, 80mp is 80mp and 50mp is 50mp.
    By panning you would get spherical information, which would be less than ideal when you stitch a very wide angle of view in the 4:3 or 3:2 format. You would get rather soft corners in the output image if you force a rectilinear stitch out of the spherical information. If you fail to find the correct nodal point you also risk getting parallax.

    On a technical camera such like the Alpa MAX or Arca RM3Di or the Cambo equivalent you can have lateral movements and vertical movements at the same time. This is the easiest way to get parallax-free rectilinear stitching. It is essentially a way to help you enjoy what can be captured by a sensor as large as the whole image circle of the lens. You simply have a sensor with size beyond the current technology

    Below shows the Visualization Tool made by Digital Transitions:

    For the IQ180 + 40HR combo: 2-way stitching gets you about 130 MP:


    For the IQ150 + 40HR combo: 4-way stitching gets you about 130 MP as well:

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    On a technical camera such like the Alpa MAX or Arca RM3Di or the Cambo equivalent you can have lateral movements and vertical movements at the same time. This is the easiest way to get parallax-free rectilinear stitching. It is essentially a way to help you enjoy what can be captured by a sensor as large as the whole image circle of the lens. You simply have a sensor with size beyond the current technology
    You make is sound so easy - if only stitching was as simple as that.

    When stitching with a tech camera you have to be very specific with every point in capture and its very difficult to see errors or problems until you sit at the computer after the shoot. Anything other than very simple stitches was always a bit of a disappointment when I shot with a tech camera so for me it's hardly a selling point. LCC correction in C1 was great on single images but with large movements I never thought the images matched 100% colour wise and I found it very frustrations always needing to hop into PS to fix shots.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jianghai View Post

    There is simply no getting around it, the mirror for 645 is ~1.6x larger in linear dimensions than the 135 mirror. Mirror slap is massive, so working with MF is necessarily slower.

    None of this is new BTW, this always existed when film was the dominant medium.
    Thanks for bringing up the 645 mirror issue again. I do not know if you currently own (or have experience with) the Pentax 645Z, but the 645Z mirror dampening is very good versus the 645D (from what I read) and from my own experience with the Hassy 503CW. Many reviews have also mentioned same, such as MR and MT. Can't remember what Lloyd C said about this point. Mirror slap is no longer massive with the 645Z to me.

    Also the mirror lockup (MLU) capability of the 645Z is just about prefect. If one uses the IR remote the first push locks up the mirror and after waiting a few seconds, in case vibration is occurring from locking up the mirror, I then hit the remote a second time to capture the image. I detect no vibration in peeping large. The same also holds true for using the 250 CF V lens in same manner. Even hand held shots with MLU have proved successful while pressing the shutter half way to activate MLU and then a second time for capture.

    I regularly use the M240 and find for critical focussing with LV, I must deactivate LV to reduce the chance of multiple shutter actions from causing vibration. That also makes for slow image capture which I don't mind for landscapes.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    You make is sound so easy - if only stitching was as simple as that.

    When stitching with a tech camera you have to be very specific with every point in capture and its very difficult to see errors or problems until you sit at the computer after the shoot. Anything other than very simple stitches was always a bit of a disappointment when I shot with a tech camera so for me it's hardly a selling point. LCC correction in C1 was great on single images but with large movements I never thought the images matched 100% colour wise and I found it very frustrations always needing to hop into PS to fix shots.
    Well for me it wasn't really that bad. I didn't find much parallax to worry about except that I detected the mazing issue for the first time (mazing can be seen in the examples below because I did not have prior knowledge about it). Can't really complain much. It's a lot easier than dealing with the alignment issues for bracketing I also didn't have color issues (perhaps I'm not so picky with any residual color casts... just didn't bother with Photoshop...).



    Last edited by voidshatter; 1st March 2015 at 09:17.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    The issue with night photography, at least working with star movements, is you really don't want to leave the back or camera open for 1 long exposure and instead your results will be greatly improved with stacking.

    Stacking with MFD, is really next to impossible, (I can't say for sure if the Pentax 645z has an intervalometer), but Phase doesn't and Mamiya doesn't, so if you want to stack, you have to manually hit the release each time, and even with the 150/250, you will have gaps. Gaps can be fixed, (one way is to try the method I describe on this forum in the stacking article), there are others. Leaving open for 1 exposure costs you a lot faint stars. And if you work with the moon, which adds so much to the shot, you will be at F 6.3 to F8 and lose even more faint stars. This is just one person's opinion.

    But even worse, if you stack, you need a fast lens, and there really is not a fast MF lens, i.e. good F2.8 wide lens by any company that I am aware other than the Mamiya 150mm F2.8, but that's way way to long for most night work. The average wide, say Mamiya 35mm F 3.5 wide open is next to terrible in the corners, enough so that your Phase 150 image will be cropped down to a 35mm sized image from a D810. The 35mm cameras, have some excellent wide and fast lenses.

    Back to the crop, actually for some it's a big deal. Net it's 30% less capture space. Sure if you are in Death Valley or a lot of places out west, you can easily accommodate the crop, in fact it may work in your favor, just like a cropped 35mm sensor works for wildlife work. However in Arkansas and the Ozarks, I am not that often working vistas but even when I am, I will need the 28 Rodie to get the full shot. And when I working a creek, I only bring the 28 and 40, as the 60 and up won't work in most situations.

    That's not to say, if Phase One came out with a trade in on the 260 to 250 that was not a total financial loss for me, that I would not consider it. I still need to shoot one with my setup, and see for myself and that's harder than most seem to realize, as getting a demo for me has been impossible. Phase is selling plenty of these backs to new users or upgrades from P45+ where they offer as much as 24K for trade in. Only time will tell if they decide to offer a more reasonable trade in to other backs, or if the market demands it. What a lot of people forget is Phase is selling a huge number of these backs in Asia probably more than 1/2 of their sales right now as that market is wide open. One of the reason's that the 50c was so cheap in Japan for a while.

    As it sits right now:

    Full frame, more resolution, needs more light, can't work well in low light if a faster shutter speed is required. May get to 15 minutes (260) with all the right conditions. Battery life is much shorter especially if you use Live View and or zero Latency or both. Back will heat up in 85 degree normal summertime shots and thus noise levels increase. Most times you need to bracket a series due to possibility of shadow noise issues. No real ability to push iso unless you use sensor plus, and STILL a huge debate on what the base iso really is 35/IQ180 or 100, and 50/160-260 or 100.

    Cropped sensor, less resolution by 10MP (I can live with that), has great shadow recovery as much as 2.75 stops maybe more. Noise is less destructive more grain like and much less stuck pixels. Highlights may be a bit more tricky but now you can expose for hightlights and push shadows with ease. True step-able iso settings, up to 6400 (however from what I have seen of 6400 it not all that good for large prints), but if you do move from 100 to 200, you are stepping up the chip and changing the reads. Live View that works as any other CMOS back, and in fact possibly better as it seems to work exceptionally well in low light unlike NIkon or Canon. Don't forgot Alpa's post from over a year ago where they showed a 250 at night in full darkness and they still have a totally usable LiveView, I have yet to see anything like this from Canon or Nikon.

    No doubt for a first time buyer, there is a lot more to consider now.

    Paul

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Stacking with MFD, is really next to impossible, (I can't say for sure if the Pentax 645z has an intervalometer), but Phase doesn't and Mamiya doesn't, so if you want to stack, you have to manually hit the release each time, and even with the 150/250, you will have gaps.
    Actually you can disable long exposure NR (darkframe NR) on the IQ150/IQ250 with virtually no impact on image quality. I usually shoot 15 minutes for each frame and stack. The gap between each frame can be as short as about 1 second and purely automatic if you use the Alpa FPS and disable darkframe NR at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    However in Arkansas and the Ozarks, I am not that often working vistas but even when I am, I will need the 28 Rodie to get the full shot.
    You could do stitching by movements with a cropped sensor and still achieve the same angle of view as fullframe If you really needed anything wider in a single exposure then you have the Canon 11-24mm f/4 L + 5DSR or 17 TS-E + IQ280/IQ260, which is one less justification to carry a technical camera with movements...

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Stacking with MFD, is really next to impossible, (I can't say for sure if the Pentax 645z has an intervalometer), but Phase doesn't and Mamiya doesn't, so if you want to stack, you have to manually hit the release each time
    H cameras have a built-in intervalometer.

    If Phase 1 or Pentax cameras don't have an intervalometer but use a somewhat standard remote socket, remote cords with built-in intervalometer function of Chinese origin can be had for little money.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    By panning you would get spherical information, which would be less than ideal when you stitch a very wide angle of view in the 4:3 or 3:2 format. You would get rather soft corners in the output image if you force a rectilinear stitch out of the spherical information.
    You get exactly the same loss in the corners by panning or by shifting, because the loss is a mathematical consequence of the projection method.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You get exactly the same loss in the corners by panning or by shifting, because the loss is a mathematical consequence of the projection method.
    You get sharp corners by shifting if you have a wide angle lens with sharp corners. You will never have sharp corners by panning if you try to stitch in 4:3 for very wide angle of view due to mathematical pixel resampling and stretching.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    H cameras have a built-in intervalometer.

    If Phase 1 or Pentax cameras don't have an intervalometer but use a somewhat standard remote socket, remote cords with built-in intervalometer function of Chinese origin can be had for little money.
    Many cameras have a built in intervalometer but they don't have timer. So you can only use the built in intervaometer to 30 seconds which in most stacking situations for night time is not long enough. Most exposures will be between 1 minute and 2 min 30 seconds in the ISO 400 to 800 range. Not being familar with Hasselblad I don't know it has the timer also. Nikon and Canon and Somy and Fuji all have intervlometer functions but no timer for bulb. However Magic Lantern on Canon adds this.

    Pail

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Void

    My Nikon 14-24 can get me there in a single frame but without movements. I prefer movements. Nikon is a bit weak on such glass IMO.

    I also doubt the Canon 11-24 will stand up to the new Canon sensors at 11mm without some loss in the corners and vignetting but even it still won't allow movements. I also am assuming it will have the same issues with filters due to the front elements as the Nikon does and will have flare issues from the curvature of the front element.

    Still yet to be seen until this lens ships. It won't be a great lens for night work as it is not a fast wide at F4 base.

    Paul

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Many cameras have a built in intervalometer but they don't have timer. So you can only use the built in intervaometer to 30 seconds which in most stacking situations for night time is not long enough. Most exposures will be between 1 minute and 2 min 30 seconds in the ISO 400 to 800 range. Not being familar with Hasselblad I don't know it has the timer also. Nikon and Canon and Somy and Fuji all have intervlometer functions but no timer for bulb. However Magic Lantern on Canon adds this.

    Pail
    You might want to check the manual for Alpa 12 FPS. If I remember correctly it would be possible to automate a timed sequence with each frame in the multi-minute territory (with gaps no longer than 1-2 seconds).

  39. #239
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Void

    My Nikon 14-24 can get me there in a single frame but without movements. I prefer movements. Nikon is a bit weak on such glass IMO.

    I also doubt the Canon 11-24 will stand up to the new Canon sensors at 11mm without some loss in the corners and vignetting but even it still won't allow movements. I also am assuming it will have the same issues with filters due to the front elements as the Nikon does and will have flare issues from the curvature of the front element.

    Still yet to be seen until this lens ships. It won't be a great lens for night work as it is not a fast wide at F4 base.

    Paul
    Well, we share the same opinion: we want the widest and we want movements at the same time!

    Widest solutions with movements:

    17TSE + IQ250: 13mm single exposure, 11mm stitch (very limited movements; very limited choices for filters; soft corners)
    23HR + P45+: 16mm single exposure, 14mm stitch (limited movements; no live view; less DR)
    17TSE + 5DSR: 17mm single exposure, 11mm stitch (very limited choices for filters; soft corners; less DR)
    23HR + IQ250: 17mm single exposure, 14mm stitch (possible rippling artifacts in the sky in extreme post-processing)
    32HR + IQ260: 21mm single exposure, 14mm stitch (limited choices for filters if you use the centerfilter; delicate lens; possible tiling artifacts in the sky; less DR)

    No solution can be perfect. You would have to give up something anyway I myself found that the 23HR + IQ250 combo has the least compromise.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 1st March 2015 at 09:36.

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    Re: Should I or not?



    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    By panning you would get spherical information, which would be less than ideal when you stitch a very wide angle of view in the 4:3 or 3:2 format. You would get rather soft corners in the output image if you force a rectilinear stitch out of the spherical information. If you fail to find the correct nodal point you also risk getting parallax.
    I have to admit I am just an amateur landscape photographer. My standard may be lower for the soft edge etc.
    Practically for landscape photography, I am not sure it's right about the statement you can't do panning with tech cam. I do it all the time and it's as easy as the DSLR. This image (minimal crop at the upper and lower edges) is almost 360 degrees with IQ260 and Cambo+40mm HR. It would be insanely big if I printed. I have a small home.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post


    I have to admit I am just an amateur landscape photographer. I am not sure you can't do panning with tech cam. I do it all the time and it's as easy as the DSLR.
    The height of your pano stitch is too short. If you try to output an image with 4:3 aspect ratio or 3:2 aspect ratio and want to be wide, then you can see that you have either:

    a) very soft corners if you force a rectilinear stitch out of a pano;

    b) if you do a cylindrical stitch out of a pano, you get curved lines that should otherwise be straight horizontal lines .
    Last edited by voidshatter; 1st March 2015 at 09:29.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    My head hurts
    I am leaving now to the mountain with my old IQ180, Cambo and a couple of lenses. I hope I can get some good pictures.
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Lol I hope so too. Go have fun

    My head is hurting and I'm just going to prepare for my famous flank steak dinner tonight.

    I know a few workshops folks just might jump on a jet and crash the house. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Many cameras have a built in intervalometer but they don't have timer. So you can only use the built in intervaometer to 30 seconds which in most stacking situations for night time is not long enough. Most exposures will be between 1 minute and 2 min 30 seconds in the ISO 400 to 800 range. Not being familar with Hasselblad I don't know it has the timer also. Nikon and Canon and Somy and Fuji all have intervlometer functions but no timer for bulb. However Magic Lantern on Canon adds this.
    You can set the exposure time between 1/800s and 128s on H cameras, which should be sufficient combined with the built-in intervalometer.

    If you can't do that on another camera, there are remote cords with a built-in intervalometer function (as I already said). You put the camera in B-mode and they do the rest. You can adjust exposure up to 99 hours.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    You get sharp corners by shifting if you have a wide angle lens with sharp corners. You will never have sharp corners by panning if you try to stitch in 4:3 for very wide angle of view due to mathematical pixel resampling and stretching.
    You did not understand what I wrote. Let me try differently: for all rectilinear wide angle lenses, the resolution decreases continuously between center and corners. This is a consequence of the projection, as optically implemented in the lens. The corners are stretched by the projection compared to the center.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You can set the exposure time between 1/800s and 256s on H cameras, which should be sufficient combined with the built-in intervalometer.

    If you can't do that on another camera, there are remote cords with a built-in intervalometer function (as I already said). You put the camera in B-mode and they do the rest. You can adjust exposure up to 99 hours.

    You missed my point, yes, I understand there are cords, that allow it on other cameras, DSLR"s, Nikon Canon both make one, I have used both extensively. Fuji does not, but you can find non Fuji brands that do the trick. Phase One/Mamiya do not make one and there are no knock off brands that I am aware of that give you this feature.

    Cords are nice, however in winter they get stiff, are long, (so around water you have to wind them around your tripod as none come in a coiled cord). They work as you state as I use all of them in my work.

    My point was that, if you are going to put an intervalometer in a camera, then please add a timer that lets you use it past the 30" set shutter speed. Or why put one in there at all. NOTE to Nikon and Canon and the rest. ask the user community who are doing such photography as to how often they need to be set past 30 seconds. Sony has no cable style and due to their proprietary plug, you can't find one on the web that works. I would friggin love to be able to use the A7 for my night work, but there is no intervalometer solution for it that takes you past 30".

    It's good to know that Hasselblad does have such a timer, that's a well though out design.

    Paul
    Last edited by Paul2660; 1st March 2015 at 10:38.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You did not understand what I wrote. Let me try differently: for all rectilinear wide angle lenses, the resolution decreases continuously between center and corners. This is a consequence of the projection, as optically implemented in the lens. The corners are stretched by the projection compared to the center.
    I know this, but if your aim is to get a wide and rectilinear picture with 4:3 or 3:2 aspect ratio, you still get better corner sharpness if you shoot with a rectilinear lens that has decent sharp corners (e.g. the Rodenstock Digaron HR lenses), than you stitch by pano with a lens of longer focal length.

    For example, to output an image at 4:3 aspect ratio with an angle of view of 14mm in the 35mm format, [S]if you stitch with a Rodenstock 32HR lens, you would get better corner sharpness than a stitch with a Rodenstock 90HR lens pano. You would need perhaps a Nikon 800mm f5.6 for the corners to offset the loss of pixel stretch.[/S]

    Edit: I'm probably wrong with this part. Need to figure this out.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 1st March 2015 at 12:01.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    You missed my point, yes, I understand there are cord, that allow it on other cameras, DSLR"s, Nikon Canon both make one, I have used both extensively. Fuji does not, but you can find non Fuji brands that do the trick. Phase One/Mamiya do not make one and there are no knock off brands that I am aware of that give you this feature.

    Cords are nice, however in winter they get stiff, are long, (so around water you have to wind them around your tripod as none come in a coiled cord). They work as you state as I use all of them in my work.

    My point was that, if you are going to put an intervalometer in a camera, then please add a timer that lets you use it past the 30" set shutter speed. Or why put one in there at all. NOTE to Nikon and Canon and the rest. ask the user community who are doing such photography as to how often they need to be set past 30 seconds. Sony has no cable style and due to their proprietary plug, you can't find one on the web that works. I would friggin love to be able to use the A7 for my night work, but there is no intervalometer solution for it that takes you past 30".

    It's good to know that Hasselblad does have such a timer, that's a well though out design.

    Paul
    I guess you just need either the Alpa FPS or the Nikon D810A

  49. #249
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I know this, but if your aim is to get a wide and rectilinear picture with 4:3 or 3:2 aspect ratio, you still get better corner sharpness if you shoot with a rectilinear lens that has decent sharp corners (e.g. the Rodenstock Digaron HR lenses), than you stitch by pano with a lens of longer focal length.

    For example, to output an image at 4:3 aspect ratio with an angle of view of 14mm in the 35mm format, if you stitch with a Rodenstock 32HR lens, you would get better corner sharpness than a stitch with a Rodenstock 90HR lens pano. You would need perhaps a Nikon 800mm f5.6 for the corners to offset the loss of pixel stretch.
    I would love to see an example of this claim. You must have a 32mm 90mm comparison to show us.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    I would love to see an example of this claim. You must have a 32mm 90mm comparison to show us.
    I don't have a 32 or 90 by my hand. I can only show you the difference between a cylindrical stitch from a pano and a rectilinear stitch from a pano.

    Below are the two stitching methods from the same set of pano shots.

    Cylindrical: note the curved lines that should otherwise be straight horizontal lines.


    Rectilinear: straight lines are straight, but corners are soft.

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