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Thread: Should I or not?

  1. #301
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Thanks Bryan. I agree that in good light condition and with balanced light any digital back with more pixels than the D800E can overwhelm the D800E.

    I have stated that I only shoot milky way, sunrise (backlight) and sunset (backlight). When I shoot directly against the sun, the image quality is bound by shadow noise (dynamic range) because I have alignment issues with bracketing. For my specific use cases when I print large, the D800E (Sony CMOS sensor) outperforms any CCD regardless of number of pixels, sensor size or superiority of glasses.

  2. #302
    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    For what you shoot, I would say that you are spot on, as I have yet to be able to shoot directly into the sun without losing a lot of my detail, even with the amazing highlight correction of C1. I also have difficulty shooting at night even in long exposure mode, then again I don't do it that often so I am out of practice so to speak.

    I used to do it quite often when I shot my Hasselblad 503cw with Fuji film. I shot an outdoor moonlit shot of my father-in-laws cabin in the woods of Maine. The exposure was 29 minutes at f8 and the image looks as though it was shot at dusk. due to the color of the sky. The great part of the image is the star trails are roughly 2 or 3 inches long on a 20x20 print, and it is tack sharp. I haven't been able to reproduce something like that, but I don't try too often either.

    Are you considering looking at Nikons new camera the D810a? It is supposed to be excellent for astrophotography.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

  3. #303
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    Re: Should I or not?

    After thinking about it for several days now and much internal debate I have decided to give it up.

    The IQ180 is going on sale shortly. I will sell the camera body and lenses separately later. If anybody is interested in this item please PM me. I will be putting it up for sale officially on this and other fora in the next couple of days.

    I am very thankful to all of you here. It has not been an easy decision at all and I really appreciate all the help I have received.

    Pradeep
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  4. #304
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    After thinking about it for several days now and much internal debate I have decided to give it up.

    The IQ180 is going on sale shortly. I will sell the camera body and lenses separately later. If anybody is interested in this item please PM me. I will be putting it up for sale officially on this and other fora in the next couple of days.

    I am very thankful to all of you here. It has not been an easy decision at all and I really appreciate all the help I have received.

    Pradeep
    Have you also decided which system to use? Just out of interest.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    For what you shoot, I would say that you are spot on, as I have yet to be able to shoot directly into the sun without losing a lot of my detail, even with the amazing highlight correction of C1. I also have difficulty shooting at night even in long exposure mode, then again I don't do it that often so I am out of practice so to speak.

    I used to do it quite often when I shot my Hasselblad 503cw with Fuji film. I shot an outdoor moonlit shot of my father-in-laws cabin in the woods of Maine. The exposure was 29 minutes at f8 and the image looks as though it was shot at dusk. due to the color of the sky. The great part of the image is the star trails are roughly 2 or 3 inches long on a 20x20 print, and it is tack sharp. I haven't been able to reproduce something like that, but I don't try too often either.

    Are you considering looking at Nikons new camera the D810a? It is supposed to be excellent for astrophotography.
    Hi Bryan

    It's amazing when you shoot at night with the light of the moon. The moon gives a wonderful blue hue to the night sky at least to film and digital. The eye won't see it.

    You should try stacking with your Nikons. Much more work than leaving the shutter open for one long exposure but well worth the results. MF by design makes this much harder although it could be done now with the 150/250 but still there is a need for some form of intervalometer.

    Paul

  6. #306
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    After thinking about it for several days now and much internal debate I have decided to give it up.

    The IQ180 is going on sale shortly. I will sell the camera body and lenses separately later. If anybody is interested in this item please PM me. I will be putting it up for sale officially on this and other fora in the next couple of days.

    I am very thankful to all of you here. It has not been an easy decision at all and I really appreciate all the help I have received.

    Pradeep
    Good luck with your future photography, I really hope you find something that will fit your needs and get the fun back into it for you. The best decision is always the one that makes you happy.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

    Jeff, but my friends call me Dogs

  7. #307
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Agree, find something that makes you want to go out and shoot not something where it's a drag when you do. My famous line. This is supposed to be fun
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  8. #308
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    Re: Should I or not?

    I just shot a complete 9 hour day today and it was fun but glad I got paid for it. After 40 years it's not easy to have fun but I still do . Otherwise I would go flip burgers. Lol
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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  9. #309
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    Have you also decided which system to use? Just out of interest.
    I have the A7R for now plus my Canon gear.

    I am seriously thinking of the Pentax 645Z. There is a kit available now with the 55 2.8 lens and then there are a lot of used lenses around. The whole thing should come in for less than $10K overall. I might get that while waiting for the Phase to sell, which could take time. If I don't like the Pentax I can still recover most of my money.

    In the past I have been able to get back 75% or more of my investment on my cameras and lenses, including Leica. It is a nightmare that with the Phase system I will get less than 50% in just over a year. I think it is truly an overpriced item but I walked into it with my eyes open, so nobody else to blame.

    The Pentax is unique in its price range, I am really surprised it is not the rage yet.
    Last edited by Pradeep; 4th March 2015 at 18:21.

  10. #310
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    In general, if you think of photography equipment in terms of an investment in financial terms (e.g., getting 75% of money on sale) you're going to be sorely disappointed most all of the time. Don't think for a second that the Pentax is going to magically hold its value any better either. I've seen some pretty cheap offerings on the Pentax 645D of recent, less than 50% of new.

    The point being is that I've found it best to look at photography equipment in terms of utility rather than financial return. If I want financial returns, I go to the stock market or other investment opportunities. It ain't in cameras. The utility or return that I get on my equipment is in generating income photographing for clients, and of course, the pure satisfaction I receive in my photographic endeavors. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If a camera doesn't provide some utility (generate income or photographic satisfaction) it's time to part ways. Quite frankly, I think you're moving kinda quick and it really has this forum worried. You break up with your IQ180 and you're already looking to get together with the Pentax. You don't even know her. It's a rebound relationship. She's a whore. She's cheap and let's almost anyone use her. I think when the novelty wears off, you'll dump her too. And get a boat.


  11. #311
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    MF by design makes this much harder although it could be done now with the 150/250 but still there is a need for some form of intervalometer.

    Paul
    Alpa FPS baby Also bracketing.
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    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  12. #312
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    In general, if you think of photography equipment in terms of an investment in financial terms (e.g., getting 75% of money on sale) you're going to be sorely disappointed most all of the time. Don't think for a second that the Pentax is going to magically hold its value any better either. I've seen some pretty cheap offerings on the Pentax 645D of recent, less than 50% of new.

    The point being is that I've found it best to look at photography equipment in terms of utility rather than financial return. If I want financial returns, I go to the stock market or other investment opportunities. It ain't in cameras. The utility or return that I get on my equipment is in generating income photographing for clients, and of course, the pure satisfaction I receive in my photographic endeavors. Nothing more, nothing less.



    Ken, I never went into Dante's inferno thinking about getting any financial rewards. Photography is absolutely the wrong 'business' in that sense, I have always known that. However, one does expect some of the equipment to hold value, at least for a year or two. Like the big lenses from Canon, even my M9 and M240, my Summilux lenses. They all cost a whole lot of money but are still worth a lot even after many years in some instances.

    THe fact is that Phase is priced too high to begin with, which makes its resale value that much lower. They are still selling a lot of units, particularly in the far east (just like Leica is) so they are not going to do anything about the price structure for a while yet.

    I may be a minority of one here, but I feel there is far too much hype and not enough substance with some of the 'high end' photo gear. Bit like clothing or other 'fine items' of personal use. Does a $10K watch give you more accurate time? Or is a Lacoste T-shirt more enduring than a no-name (they are both made in China anyway)? I can see the 'value' in automotives to an extent and can understand the 'prestige' factor in many of these things.

    But do people buy a camera because it makes them look good or because it makes their pictures look good? I bought into the Leica dream and soon realized that it did not deliver what I had thought it would. Sold it, but a year later bought the M240 when the virtues of CMOS were being sung from the rooftops in the photography world. Found it wanting again.

    I am not a pro, just a serious enthusiast and quite passionate about photography. I am not averse to spending money on it either, heck I've done a lot of that already, not just in cameras and lenses but all the other things that go with them. I want the best that money can buy and yet there is the law of diminishing returns. If it costs ten times more to get that extra 10% then it is not for me. Perhaps that is the crux of the matter and maybe I realize that too late in the game.


    If a camera doesn't provide some utility (generate income or photographic satisfaction) it's time to part ways. Quite frankly, I think you're moving kinda quick and it really has this forum worried. You break up with your IQ180 and you're already looking to get together with the Pentax. You don't even know her. It's a rebound relationship. She's a whore. She's cheap and let's almost anyone use her. I think when the novelty wears off, you'll dump her too. And get a boat.



    Perhaps. Maybe it is justification of sorts. My first SLR was a Pentax, way back in the 80s (before that I had used a rangefinder, the Kodak Retina IIc for about 20 yrs). It is only fitting then that I should go back to it.

    Which is why I do not mind the 'cheap whore' that the Pentax may be.

    And as for boats, well, I'd rather drive my Tesla

  13. #313
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    In the past I have been able to get back 75% or more of my investment on my cameras and lenses, including Leica. It is a nightmare that with the Phase system I will get less than 50% in just over a year. I think it is truly an overpriced item but I walked into it with my eyes open, so nobody else to blame.

    The Pentax is unique in its price range, I am really surprised it is not the rage yet.
    But it is already the rage, at least among people who can afford something of this level, the D800 was much more affordable, even though $3000 is still a lot of cash for many people. The difference between the reception of these two cameras is noticeable though, for every mention of the Nikons and Sonys in the MF forum was someone else rolling their eyes at the proposition that a 35mm camera was somehow superior to their beloved MF systems, but the Pentax suffers no such polarity.

    Regarding investment... besides running a cut-throat business like wedding photography, there are very few ways to actually make any money, photography is almost certainly for self-fulfillment more than anything else. You want your images to be the best, and so you pay for the privilege of having the best.

    I'll just say that photography as a hobby isn't nearly as expensive as some of them are - your camera doesn't run on fuel, your lenses don't wear out, resale value isn't nearly as terrible as other kinds of gear, and the only consumable media is paper and ink if and when you choose to print something.
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  14. #314
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    Re: Should I or not?

    There seems at times a general disconnect between professionals and non-professionals and how we look at the camera systems we use (I know I'm guilty at times). Professionals look at their gear more as tools rather than cameras, lens, lights etc., and that can ever spread into the computer systems we use to produce the finished product. Professionals use camera systems to generate income. I've just offered a 40x30 image that I've decided to limit the printing to no more than 50 total. The lifetime sales of that one-image will generate in excess of $30,000 on the conservative side. I have another image that is nearing the end of its lifetime having just sold #22 out of #25 (a 30x60 that has also been licensed by Phase One for world wide use in their shows). The other aspect of a professional at lest in the US is that we get to write-off our tools off our income taxes. So professionals look at their systems differently from non-professionals.

    Non-professionals buy into a system thinking that it great because others are using the same thing so it'll help me take stunning images as well. Okay that may be a little too harsh and over simplified.

    Whether you're a professional or not you need to give the equipment a chance to prove it's worth. You can't expect to take a system right out of the box and go out and expect it to deliver. To use Ken's terms - you need to play with it a little. No system is perfect so you need to see what the warts are and how to work around them. Don't get discouraged if your new system won't put out the first time you use it - keep after it a while and soon it'll be treating you nice. Okay, enough of that visual.

    Bottom line is that there's a difference between how we look at the systems we use. Is the equipment overpriced? It depends on what you use it for. I have never thought that on any of the systems I've used whether it be a camera, lens, computer or printer but then they all generate income.

    This was just some random thoughts I've had running through my brain for awhile....

    Don
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  15. #315
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    Re: Should I or not?

    "Phase is just priced too high."

    So don't buy it.

  16. #316
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post

    I'd look towards something that you enjoy using----that makes you want to take the camera system out and use it. I'm just shaking my head at where this thread has gone with all its psuedo-academic (emphasis on pseudo) cerebral vomiting. If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.

    ...

    I think if I were in your quandary and actually read all the psuedo-cerebral DxO-it-was-on-the-internet-so-must-be-better-than-taking-actual-photos comments, I would just buy a boat.
    dxomark score used to be a selling point for the IQ180 when it was first available. The IQ180 used to be the best in the list. Phase One's official site even used the dxomark score to promote the IQ180. It then got surpassed by the Sony CMOS sensor (the later D800E, and now the IQ250) in the metrics related to SNR.



    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    You break up with your IQ180 and you're already looking to get together with the Pentax. You don't even know her. It's a rebound relationship. She's a whore. She's cheap and let's almost anyone use her. I think when the novelty wears off, you'll dump her too. And get a boat.

    In the (foreseen near) future the IQ180 might be cheap enough for almost anyone to use. Now it's already very affordable in the second-hand market.
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    I don't care who uses DxO in their marketing. It is of limited use, imho, except for pixel peepers. I like to go out and use my camera and half the fun is being able to work with and workaround purported limitations.

    Read it again: If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.:dh2:

    Shoot what you want. Not a happy? Buy a boat.


  18. #318
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I don't care who uses DxO in their marketing. It is of limited use, imho, except for pixel peepers. I like to go out and use my camera and half the fun is being able to work with and workaround purported limitations.

    Read it again: If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.:dh2:

    Shoot what you want. Not a happy? Buy a boat.

    Stop beating around the bush and tell us how you really feel Ken
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  19. #319
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Ken,

    I'm intrigued by your boat idea.

    Do you have any suggestions as to size, etc.?

    Are larger boats better?

    Please tell us more.

    Thanks, Steve

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    Re: Should I or not?

    No more pixel peeping?

    Get something magic instead!

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Hi,

    My understanding is that linking to an image posted on the net is always OK. It is also my understanding that "Voidshatter" made proper attributions.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    Void

    Firstly I don't know whether you should be posting other peoples photos without permission.
    Secondly some of these are obvious HDR images that can be done with any sensor
    Thirdly I had a sony sensor and didn't like it

    It's not for everyone, this is the bit you don't seem to understand. I have never said that you are wrong for liking the new CMOS from Sony, but you continually insinuate that everyone else is for not jumping onboard.

  22. #322
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Hi,

    The really bright idea is of course to read the DxO charts before buying a camera.

    Unfortunately, DxO mark has only tested a few Phase One cameras. Also DxO-mark doesn't test long exposures, which are of particular interest to "Voidshatter". He has done extensive tests with several MFDB and found that they are not suitable for his kind of work.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post

    Read it again: If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.:dh2:


  23. #323
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Ken,

    I'm intrigued by your boat idea.

    Do you have any suggestions as to size, etc.?

    Are larger boats better?

    Please tell us more.

    Thanks, Steve
    Just for you, Steve.

    Girls In Bikinis On Boats

    This thread got old long ago, so "Excuse me while I go buy a boat"

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    "Phase is just priced too high."

    So don't buy it.

    Sadly, I did (unless you intended sarcasm with this remark in which case I must confess I missed it).

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    The fact is that Phase is priced too high to begin with...
    It's all to do with the (highly dubious in practice now that newer tech has fewer MP) 'keep 'em on the upgrade merry-go-round' .. sadly it looks like this 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model isn't going any place fast.

    However, on the used market prices are taking a beating. A real beating. Something has changed. Here and now, there is just no way I would ever buy a new P1 back with my own, hard earned cash. If anyone reading this would, then - well - good for you.

    The article in the New York Times on Peter Lik is interesting in terms of retail price vs. value. Parallels to be drawn, and definitely worth a read.
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  26. #326
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Hi,

    I have been an MFD skeptic before buying my P45+ and I am still an MFD skeptic. Now, my shooting may differ from yours. I am the base ISO, camera on tripod, always mirror lockup kind of guy.

    The reason I went into MFD was that I bought a couple of Hasselblad's Zeiss lenses, because I wanted to find out if the Zeisses had some special look and those were the cheapest Zeiss lenses I could find. I did not find a lot of "Zeissness" but liked those two and wanted an MFDSLR to put them on. P45+s started to show up below 10000$US, which felt acceptable to me.

    So I got the P45+, an 555/ELD and a couple of more lenses. So, I found what I have expected. Good resolution, lot of moiré, colour rendition somewhat special. But, I liked working with the stuff. My first real world image was this one (larger size: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Ar...0-CF043307.jpg )


    I have done 40-50% of my shooting on the P45+ recently, but none of my P45+ images made it to my latest exhibition. I love the images I am shooting here around, but my images in the mountains shown in the exhibitions were a bit boring.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    Sadly, I did (unless you intended sarcasm with this remark in which case I must confess I missed it).

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    Re: Should I or not?

    yeah. i'm glad i have a 800e
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I am not a pro, just a serious enthusiast and quite passionate about photography. I am not averse to spending money on it either, heck I've done a lot of that already, not just in cameras and lenses but all the other things that go with them. I want the best that money can buy and yet there is the law of diminishing returns. If it costs ten times more to get that extra 10% then it is not for me. Perhaps that is the crux of the matter and maybe I realize that too late in the game.
    Hi Pradeep,
    I am exactly the same as you, not a pro, just a serious enthusiast (too serious) who want the best IQ.
    I've owned several systems and want to share my experience.
    You've already had one of the best MFDB. I don't believe the 50mp CMOS is a better sensor (I've had both IQ180/260 and Pentax 645z). IQ wise, nothing can compare the IQ180.
    If you try the tech cam with the IQ180, you may find out you achieve your goal of the best IQ especially with wide angle. No DSLR can match it even the Leica S. More than that, to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.
    Selling the IQ180 to buy Pentax may not be a good idea as there is no way you will get a better IQ. The price of IQ180 is too low in a 2nd-hand market.
    I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
    If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
    I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
    Best regards,
    Pramote
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    No more pixel peeping?

    Get something magic instead!

  30. #330
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
    If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
    I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
    Best regards,
    Pramote
    What Pramote says! Even though I have an IQ150 now (from an IQ260) I expect that I'll pick up an IQ180 at some point on the used market when I can afford it to complement it. It's still the quality king when exposed correctly (as opposed to the shadow recovery king which the iq150 certainly seems to be vs my 260).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Hi Pradeep,
    I am exactly the same as you, not a pro, just a serious enthusiast (too serious) who want the best IQ.
    I've owned several systems and want to share my experience.
    You've already had one of the best MFDB. I don't believe the 50mp CMOS is a better sensor (I've had both IQ180/260 and Pentax 645z). IQ wise, nothing can compare the IQ180.
    If you try the tech cam with the IQ180, you may find out you achieve your goal of the best IQ especially with wide angle. No DSLR can match it even the Leica S. More than that, to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.
    Selling the IQ180 to buy Pentax may not be a good idea as there is no way you will get a better IQ. The price of IQ180 is too low in a 2nd-hand market.
    I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
    If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
    I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
    Best regards,
    Pramote
    Pramote, thank you. It is good to hear from somebody who is an enthusiast like myself.

    I've been on workshops with people who bring the Phase system but then it stays in the car. Most end up using a regular DSLR. One lady had the 240 LS lens on the camera with "The Cube" and it was all perched precariously on a Gitzo 2 series tripod. She barely ever used it during the entire workshop. I wonder, if like myself, they bought it without really thinking it all through.

    I've been deliberating this for a while now. I even looked (online) at various tech camera options, working out the price factor, the hassle factor, the time factor and the end results. Granted, nothing can compare with actual hands-on experience, but short of doing that, I tried everything else I could - on a theoretical basis.

    I realized that I just don't have the time for tech cameras. For me, the solution has to be more versatile than what the techs offer. As it stands, the DF645+ with the IQ180 itself is quite limiting for my needs. From my own use over the past year the images I made have not been 'stunning' although a few of them have been so detailed that the large prints are truly impressive. I have tried, believe me, to use it as much as possible. I've done the MLUP, self timer, sturdy tripod, etc etc. Even took it on a hike in upstate New York when I was there for fall watching. Hard to take a tech camera when you are with the wife and friends, they do not have the patience.

    If I have to rely on a tech camera every time to get the best out of the DB then it is not for me. Remember, I am not into portraits, fashion or product photography and probably do 60-70% wildlife.

    As I bought the IQ180 new, I am going to take a bath on selling it, but the price is dropping like a stone and the longer I keep it the less I am going to get for it, so it is better for me to just get out now. If there was a full frame CMOS back available now, with the promise of a new body on the horizon AND if the upgrade path was not quite so steep, I may have stayed with the Phase system.

    Simply keeping it for the elusive IQ advantage is not enough for me. Yes, initially that was my thought, get the best image quality money can buy, but I have changed my mind given the direction in which MF is headed.

    I am still very much in the abyss, but not as deep.

    Pradeep

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.
    My thoughts exactly. I have been recently tempted to unload my IQ back but in comparison to shooting my DSLR, I do prefer it much more. I just wish I had more opportunity to shoot it.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    My thoughts exactly. I have been recently tempted to unload my IQ back but in comparison to shooting my DSLR, I do prefer it much more. I just wish I had more opportunity to shoot it.
    My Zen moment is simply standing behind the camera, whether it is watching a baby elephant doing its thing or a beautiful sunset in all its glory. The camera does not matter much at that point. The joy of being there and recording that moment for my own pleasure is what it's about. The anticipation of how that image will later print out simply adds to the fun.

    It is strange, I may have barely slept the previous night, and yet the thrill of a pre-dawn sighting of wildebeest on the plains of Africa or the first rays of the sun bursting upon the dark landscape from the mountain top energize me like nothing else.

    OTOH, going to work on a Monday morning through New York traffic is always a chore

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    If I have to rely on a tech camera every time to get the best out of the DB then it is not for me. Remember, I am not into portraits, fashion or product photography and probably do 60-70% wildlife.

    Pradeep
    Pradeep,

    Look from your style of photography and your main interest in wildlife, MFDB may not suit you well.
    If you are not happy with the the IQ180 and don't like tech cam, there's no point to stick with it. I will not bet on Phase One new body.
    If I were you, I'd cut loose selling the IQ180 now. The price of IQ180 in a 2nd-hand market will not get better.
    Although Pentax 645Z is the closest to Nikon/Canon (automatic/waterproof/price), it's a big camera and has a limitation of telephoto lenses. It's certainly not for a wide life. If I were you, I will stick with 35mm DSLR which has had lots of advantages especially with wildlife. I don't think IQ of 50 mp of 35mm-DSLR will be much different from the 50 mp of 645-DSLR. My 2nd-hand Canon 600mm IS still has the same price as when I bought 4 years ago!

    Life is too short! Enjoy it.

    Pramote

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    Pradeep,

    Look from your style of photography and your main interest in wildlife, MFDB may not suit you well.
    If you are not happy with the the IQ180 and don't like tech cam, there's no point to stick with it. I will not bet on Phase One new body.
    If I were you, I'd cut loose selling the IQ180 now. The price of IQ180 in a 2nd-hand market will not get better.
    Although Pentax 645Z is the closest to Nikon/Canon (automatic/waterproof/price), it's a big camera and has a limitation of telephoto lenses. It's certainly not for a wide life. If I were you, I will stick with 35mm DSLR which has had lots of advantages especially with wildlife. I don't think IQ of 50 mp of 35mm-DSLR will be much different from the 50 mp of 645-DSLR. My 2nd-hand Canon 600mm IS still has the same price as when I bought 4 years ago!

    Life is too short! Enjoy it.

    Pramote

    Pramote, I have made up my mind. I am working with a dealer (not Phase) to sell my IQ180 and have also ordered the Pentax. There was a special deal on it until yesterday where the 55 2.8 lens was free (a $1200 value). Since I had already decided to get the Pentax before my trip to Africa in May, I couldn't refuse the great bargain.

    In 2007 I was in Kenya with a Canon 5D and a 40D. The images I took with the former are still great to look at. The Pentax is in every respect much better, except for fps (3/sec which is the same) and the size, which I can live with. If a camera has decent AF, fps, low-light capability it is quite useful in the Serengeti. For wildlife the subject matter is way more important. I mean you can get better and better images of the Monument Valley as your photo gear improves over the years, but in wildlife, something like a great wildebeest crossing with over 20,000 animals is a once in a lifetime event.

    The other great thing about MF and wildlife is that you can crop into the image a lot more. You don't often have the time or luxury of composition and being able to crop is a great asset. I am also more of the 'animal in habitat' kind of person and don't do birds much, so for me a huge zoom is not essential (sold my 600 MkII a few months ago).

    So I can very easily see myself using both my 1DX and the Pentax in Africa. There are no long hikes involved, you shoot from a stationary vehicle, so size is not important (if I could heft the 1DX with a 600 on it, I can surely use the Pentax too).

    As far as value is concerned, I agree with you completely. The time to get out of the Phase system is NOW! I too sold my Leica lenses and also my used 500 f4 at a profit after a few years . The Phase gear is/was priced out of proportion to its real value and they were able to keep it that way by restricting sale outlets and by the relatively low number of used units on the open market. Everybody who bought into it is now stuck with a very expensive piece of camera equipment that is rapidly becoming obsolete. They can't sell it for fear of losing too much money and yet if they keep it for too long it is going to happen any way. This is a dilemma that I have struggled with for several months now.

    Of course if you are happy with it then value does not come into the picture. But, at some point, as other technologies/manufacturers catch up or surpass what you have and are way more affordable, the inherent value of what you own drops dramatically - as it is happening already in my case.

    I am glad I finally made the decision. Yes, it is a huge loss financially but it was only going to get worse for me.

    Pradeep

    Here is a pano of the wildbeest crossing taken with the 5D at ISO 800. It hangs as a 7ft X 2 ft print over my desk in my study. I am sure the Pentax can do a much better job.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Agree just being there is the magic. Getting it on a sensor is the bonus.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    Pramote, I have made up my mind. I am working with a dealer (not Phase) to sell my IQ180 and have also ordered the Pentax. There was a special deal on it until yesterday where the 55 2.8 lens was free (a $1200 value). Since I had already decided to get the Pentax before my trip to Africa in May, I couldn't refuse the great bargain.
    Great move, I'm sure you'll like the camera. Just a bit of advice that I learned myself on the go:
    - Don't overexpose, the 645Z has no highlight headroom, but you can push 4 stops & +100% shadows just fine.
    - TAv mode is your friend, set max ISO to 12K, and then just pick the shutter speed and aperture as appropriate, the matrix metering is very very good.
    - 12K ISO looks fine. Like film grain in B&W.
    - Live view exposure does not work like on Canon cameras, any mode other than M or X has auto-brightness, while the "exposure simulation" on M and X is still affected by metering, and is incapable of showing 5EV above or below the metered exposure, something Pentax really needs to rectify with an update.
    - Center point AF seems a tad faster than 27 or 9 point AF for single shots.
    - The 150/2.8 is a very fast and also surprisingly light lens, about the same size as the 55/2.8, so you may want to try it out. Sharp from f/5.6. The 120mm Macro is also excellent, but 50% heavier.
    - You can see the preview faster if you turn off the histogram.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Hi Pradeep,

    I'm glad you've finally made a decision and it sounds like a great idea. I've had both Canon and Pentax 645Z myself and they seem to be a good combination for wide life and beyond.
    What I like the most about the 645Z besides the sensor are their price, advanced technology, the closest to 35mm-DSLR, and water resistance. It's the only handheld MFDSLR I've ever owned for low-light situation.
    The lenses are very reasonable price. I've got several lenses from Japan dealers via Ebay website and they are very reliable.
    Each camera systems suit different photographers. I am glad you are finally happy.

    Best regards,
    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 7th March 2015 at 10:36.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Congrats Pradeep. I have been lurking in the shadows reading this thread. I went through the same issues a few months ago. I loved the Phase 160 but I never used it as much as i thought I would and wanted more ISO flexibility. I fought with the poor upgrade offers of Phase and the thought of losing a lot of money on resale. Finally just had to give someone a good deal and get out. I am also looking at the Pentax and hope you will post updates of your experience.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Of the three people I know personally who've bought the 645z, not one has been unhappy with the camera body and shooting experience. A couple shoot with their tech cams but bring the Pentax for everything other than pure landscape (and actually landscape when the circumstances require quick changes).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Thanks guys. The last four posts have given me a lot of comfort. I did not want to suffer from seller's remorse, looks like that is not going to happen. It is heartening to learn that I am not the only one who has had doubts.

  42. #342
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    Re: Should I or not?

    If you're going on a Safari I recommend keeping a 150-600 or something of the sort "glued" to your 1Dx. I'd also buy the longest lens you could comfortable handhold for the 645Z.

    I did a Safari in Uganda last year and it was one of the coolest things I've done in my life. The longest lens I had at the time was a 180mm but my driver was very skilled at getting me reasonably close to the animals for photo opportunities. It also helps to have a very skilled driver when it comes to tracking. Certain animals (usually the predators) are very elusive and rarely sleep in the same area two nights in a row. Also expect to go out several days if able at different times of the day. It's ridiculous how large some of the parks are. It may take a minimum of 30-45 minutes just to get to where the animals are from the lodges (depending on the park.)
    Sony Visible Light & IR Photographer
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    Thanks guys. The last four posts have given me a lot of comfort. I did not want to suffer from seller's remorse, looks like that is not going to happen. It is heartening to learn that I am not the only one who has had doubts.
    If you fully understand what is sunk cost and know what is a rational decision then you would not be bothered by seller's remorse. I have never had a single moment of regret since dumping my IQ260, because it is not suitable for my use cases. I actually had relief instead as I no longer had to face something that depreciates every single day without bringing me the images I want. CCD had its golden days and will eventually go. Even the site owner (Guy) is using the Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor (A7R). You know which is the future. (645Z/IQ250 is a larger version of the A7R/D800E.) If these are not enough, keep in mind that Antony Spencer (who shot the advertisement image for the IQ260 and Phase One A-series) dumped the IQ280 and settled with a D800 (Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor). CCD for me is just like film - they could make nice images but are technically obsolete for me. It is pretty easy for me to ignore the 645 format CCDs, just as easy as ignoring the 8x10 films.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 7th March 2015 at 14:47.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    If you fully understand what is sunk cost and know what is a rational decision then you would not be bothered by seller's remorse. I have never had a single moment of regret since dumping my IQ260, because it is not suitable for my use cases. I actually had relief instead as I no longer had to face something that depreciates every single day without bringing me the images I want. CCD had its golden days and will eventually go. Even the site owner (Guy) is using the Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor (A7R). You know which is the future. (645Z/IQ250 is a larger version of the A7R/D800E.) If these are not enough, I would let you know that Antony Spencer (who shot the advertisement image for the IQ260 and Phase One A-series) dumped the IQ280 and settled with a D800 (Sony IMX094 CMOS sensor).
    Hold on pal. Do NOT use me in your lame sales pitch for CMOS. You have no ****ing idea why i sold my CCD sensor backs. This really pisses me off. My wife has breast, lung and brain cancer for the last 5 years and I sold it all to pay her medical bills which runs in to hundreds of thousands. So do not use me as your escape goat to bolster your pitch for CMOS. Do NOT ever assume anything in life. I earned my respect here your still working on it and using me is not the route to take.

    I still hold the controls here watch your step. BTW using other on what they do with there buy and sell stuff is there freaking business and there reasons for it are not for you to use in a random rant. People buy and sell for many reasons and half the time it has noting to do with if it works or not.

    Frankly I would take a long step back from the keyboard and readjust your attitude here as your not making friends.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Pradeep, good choice. I love my645d. Pentax has some nice 300mm and a 400 mm telephotos. The 1.4x teleconverter is also of high quality--the 2x is not.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    I am so sick of the claim CMOS is better than CCD which has been repetitively commented all over the places.
    The 2 best photographers @ GetDPI, in my opinion, Ed and Dan, using CCD sensor.
    We've had a forum "Fun with MF images". If you want to convince me CMOS is better than CCD by showing me your own artistic pictures that better than both of them, I will sell all my CCD DB and never look back.
    Please understand, I am not biased and I don't have to as I've currently owned both CMOS and CCD cameras. I've had to be honest I don't see the difference in IQ. It's just one has a better ISO. That's it!

    Best regards
    Pramote
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Landscapelover View Post
    I am so sick of the claim CMOS is better than CCD which has been repetitively commented all over the places.
    The 2 best photographers @ GetDPI, in my opinion, Ed and Dan, using CCD sensor.
    We've had a forum "Fun with MF images". If you want to convince me CMOS is better than CCD by showing me your own artistic pictures that better than both of them, I will sell all my CCD DB and never look back.
    Please understand, I am not biased and I don't have to as I've currently owned both CMOS and CCD cameras. I've had to be honest I don't see the difference in IQ. It's just one has a better ISO. That's it!

    Best regards
    Pramote
    I don't think CMOS just has a better ISO.
    One month ago I decided to step into the MF and since the 135 system has completely taken over by CMOS , I have few knowledge on CCD so I looked for answers. Some 'veteran' photographers told me that
    ' CCD has unique colors which CMOS will never be able to present',
    'CCD preserves more high light details',
    'CCD has more color sensitivity',
    &'CCD is of course better than CMOS because CCD is more expensive( to be mass-produced)' etc.
    Fortunately I didn't easily believe them and got quite opposite opinions by simply checking DXO for data.Then I saw Void's detailed tests on CCD/sony CMOS backs which totally crush those fallacies. Personally I believe in his tests because he's got really concrete evidence and responsible attitude ,most of all , I could find nothing to contradict except for superstition. It is the digital world now and a camera sensor can be surely quantified to numbers.
    As a hesitating newbie , I do need these tests and plainspoken conclusions. More or less , we enter MF for its superior I.Q ! One day we will say good bye to BKT , HDR and they will be all replaced by simply moving sliders in ACR.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    I don't think CMOS just has a better ISO.
    One month ago I decided to step into the MF and since the 135 system has completely taken over by CMOS , I have few knowledge on CCD so I looked for answers. Some 'veteran' photographers told me that
    ' CCD has unique colors which CMOS will never be able to present',
    'CCD preserves more high light details',
    'CCD has more color sensitivity',
    &'CCD is of course better than CMOS because CCD is more expensive( to be mass-produced)' etc.
    Fortunately I didn't easily believe them and got quite opposite opinions by simply checking DXO for data.Then I saw Void's detailed tests on CCD/sony CMOS backs which totally crush those fallacies. Personally I believe in his tests because he's got really concrete evidence and responsible attitude ,most of all , I could find nothing to contradict except for superstition. It is the digital world now and a camera sensor can be surely quantified to numbers.
    As a hesitating newbie , I do need these tests and plainspoken conclusions. More or less , we enter MF for its superior I.Q ! One day we will say good bye to BKT , HDR and they will be all replaced by simply moving sliders in ACR.
    I've owned IQ 180/260 for many years since they came out. I've also owned Leica S2, P1 25+ and Pentax 645Z. I've still owned them all. Each ones of them have their own advantages.
    It's very hard to look at the spec. on paper or few picture tests and tell which ones can produce better IQ. Even renting for few days can't tell you. You've had to own them for a while and get use to them to be able to understand and appreciate their capability. I even bought the IQ180 back after I traded the previous one with IQ260.
    What I've found out is that it's not cameras but myself to make good pictures or not. Most of the time I am the one who should be blamed when I did not take good pictures.
    I like to look at the big "Print", not "Monitor". I can say again, you can't tell the difference in IQ for above cameras I mentioned except IQ180 which has had better IQ @ 44" print or bigger.
    It's hard to believe but I even like the color from P 25+ more than Pentax 645Z. I will keep it forever. It's still very good at its based ISO.
    The IQ250 will be obsolete in few years and everyone will start to talk about new sensors. On and on and on....
    Look at Michael Kenna's work and you will realize photography is not just only sharp image or perfect shadow and highlight. It's way much more than that.
    I've just want to share my experience. What you see on monitor is not what you see on the prints.

    Best regards,
    Pramote
    Last edited by Landscapelover; 8th March 2015 at 09:10.
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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    .... It is the digital world now and a camera sensor can be surely quantified to numbers.....
    As a hesitating newbie , I do need these tests and plainspoken conclusions.
    What you have plainly missed (as well as many other armchair quarterbacks happy with sitting at home with DxO and shooting brickwalls) is that photography is not "quantifiable to numbers."

    Please understand that this is not a personal attack---less someone else start throwing DxO charts and graphs all over this forum again. But one simply cannot feed a photographic image into a computer reader and numbers come out with objective numbered rankings. Surely I jest, but I'm hoping that you understand (I know the GetDPI family "gets-it") that there is an inherently subjective nature to photography that cannot be circumvented by the latest technology or maybe as simplistically as choosing Nikon over Canon.

    One tool may help you see your vision, maybe create it more easily, and hopefully give you more enjoyment as a photographer. But there is no guarantee that having the latest or greatest will be that panacea that you had hoped for. And if you read the first posting in this thread---I think you will see that borne out.

    There is a saying now with the advent of digital and the internet: "I read it on the internet so it must be true." If this is a philosophy you're comfortable with, my best advice to a new photographer is to not spend all that money on MFDB (and especially not on a new expensive CMOS MFDB ), or even on a DSLR. And anyone who knows me, knows this must be serious advice if one of the top self-proclaimed GetDPI enablers is telling you not to spend money on new gear. Simply stay at home. Immerse yourself in DxO. Spend time around home building new brick walls around the garden....

    Or, you can actually go out and photograph something. I mean, isn't that the reason you got involved in photography---the reason to buy a camera system(s) in the first place? That's where the real experience and the "a-ha" moments come from---not from all the cerebral vomiting, DxO charts, and brick walls. Go out and join a medium format digital workshop. Shoot with different systems. Note that there is a recent thread on how many camera systems folks here have: there is no jack of all trades, just a bunch of different systems for different purposes and pure photographic enjoyment.

    Try different MFDB systems. I know this may be difficult for some, but this does require shutting off the computer and going outside and photographing something other than a brick wall. There is no magic bullet---no magic CMOS MFDB that solves world hunger and climate warming as you might have been mistakenly led to believe. There are many different camera bodies that may effect your decision as well. Go out and get actual experience with medium format digital camera systems to find out what suits you best and tickles your fancy.

    I have rarely (if ever) felt constrained by my IQ180. I enjoy this process called photography, working with my cameras strengths and limitations, to create images, and complete projects for my clients. Medium format digital is this very small subset of select photographers where presumably image quality is pretty important. I think it's pretty disingenuous to now think that CCD MFDBs are less capable than CMOS. Pick a tool for the overall system that suits you best. You just may find yourself with both CCD and CMOS cameras, and joining the throngs who have more than one camera.

    Go out and create a beautiful, stunning photographic image. Any MFDB can print it large. I promise you, no one will say it is any less beautiful when they find out which sensor type you used.

    ken

    p.s. Enjoy the rest of your weekend. I'm going out to look at boats and bikinis.

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    Re: Should I or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyR View Post
    Personally I believe in his tests because he's got really concrete evidence and responsible attitude ,most of all , I could find nothing to contradict except for superstition. It is the digital world now and a camera sensor can be surely quantified to numbers.
    He also has an agenda. His test are extreme and they are biased. I am not saying there is not a technical advantage to CMOS over CCD, there is and DXO Mark scores shows that (imaging system have always been quantified by numbers), but what is the actual significance? Voidshatter has a very narrow view of photography that is extreme and his conclusions are not really saying anything beyond examples of confirmation bias and WYSIATI (What You See Is All There Is).

    Now, I actually work at a college imaging center doing both applied photography and scientific imaging. I have a science degree in photography. I have been in this field for 30 years with publications and exhibitions of my work. You certainly do not have to take my word for anything. but there are a lot folks folks that throw numbers and "tests" around and sound very impressive to people entering photography. How to separate the wheat from the chaff can be hard, including those that mystify the CCD. Nothing is ever as great or as bad as people may claim. Photography is rather mundane and the "truth" is never amazing nor dire as people will have you believe.
    Will

    http://www.hakusancreation.com
    Likes 6 Member(s) liked this post

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