Should I or not?

[Pradeep]

Much as I appreciate the education, all this is bringing the SNR of the thread way down for me.

The longer I ponder this issue, the more confusing it gets

The way I see it now, I have three options:

1. Go for the best image quality: Meaning, keep the IQ180, get a tech cam, Rodenstock or similar lenses and invest the time and energy to master the whole process. I cannot sell the 645DF+ body because then the system is useless for any 'casual' photography. Therefore added cost, probably another $10-15K. In my present position in life, I may be able to come up with the money but not the time.

2. Stay where I am, almost best IQ: Keep the IQ180 back and the 645DF+ body and lenses I currently own, work harder at getting the most out of it. Not the best solution for me philosophically but probably painless. Added cost: Nil, except for depreciation of present equipment, which applies equally to option 1.

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now. Same sensor as the IQ250, better handling and better high ISO performance than the Phase system and at an incredible price. Added cost: nil, if I sell the Phase and buy this, may have quite a bit of money left over. Down side: IQ perhaps not quite as good (need to do more reading on this).

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different? At present the Pentax lens line up is much like the Sony E Mount, very few and expensive.

 

[gerald.d]

Much as I appreciate the education, all this is bringing the SNR of the thread way down for me.

The longer I ponder this issue, the more confusing it gets

The way I see it now, I have three options:

1. Go for the best image quality: Meaning, keep the IQ180, get a tech cam, Rodenstock or similar lenses and invest the time and energy to master the whole process. I cannot sell the 645DF+ body because then the system is useless for any 'casual' photography. Therefore added cost, probably another $10-15K. In my present position in life, I may be able to come up with the money but not the time.

2. Stay where I am, almost best IQ: Keep the IQ180 back and the 645DF+ body and lenses I currently own, work harder at getting the most out of it. Not the best solution for me philosophically but probably painless. Added cost: Nil, except for depreciation of present equipment, which applies equally to option 1.

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now. Same sensor as the IQ250, better handling and better high ISO performance than the Phase system and at an incredible price. Added cost: nil, if I sell the Phase and buy this, may have quite a bit of money left over. Down side: IQ perhaps not quite as good (need to do more reading on this).

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different? At present the Pentax lens line up is much like the Sony E Mount, very few and expensive.

I can't comment on Phase vs Pentax, but I can comment on everything else from experience.

Option 4 -

Sell the DF and lenses.
Keep the IQ180
Buy a tech cam and a Rodie or two and never look back.
Buy a casual camera for your casual photography (one of those little Fuji things for example).

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[Chris Giles]

I can't give you more options but say what I'm doing.

645z and almost all the lenses for the ultra image quality.
Canon 5DSr for the ultra wide lenses for the 11-24mm range and Tilt Shift lenses.

All highly affordable. I still get my medium format look and competitive IQ but have the most flexible combined system around.

Lots of fun to be had there.

 

[Pradeep]

I can't comment on Phase vs Pentax, but I can comment on everything else from experience.

Option 4 -

Sell the DF and lenses.
Keep the IQ180
Buy a tech cam and a Rodie or two and never look back.
Buy a casual camera for your casual photography (one of those little Fuji things for example).

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Gerald, thank you for your response. I already have the A7R for 'casual' and the RX100 for 'even more casual' use. If I wanted to stay with those I would not have started this thread.

But I see your point too. In order to get the best image possible (what constitutes that is another debate altogether), a tech camera and a Rodie is the way to go. And yet, as I said earlier, there are many situations where your combo simply does not work.

Is it too much to ask when you spend $50K on a camera system to do things the way you want it to?

 

[Pradeep]

I can't give you more options but say what I'm doing.

645z and almost all the lenses for the ultra image quality.
Canon 5DSr for the ultra wide lenses for the 11-24mm range and Tilt Shift lenses.

All highly affordable. I still get my medium format look and competitive IQ but have the most flexible combined system around.

Lots of fun to be had there.

Thanks Chris. Your review of the Pentax is what got me thinking about that as an option.

 

[voidshatter]

I'm a little confused by the statements I've highlighted.

Firstly, with regards perspective, it doesn't matter how you go about capturing a "very wide" field of view - nodal or shift makes no difference whatsoever. It's how you choose to project the captured stitch that is important.

Secondly, you are always working with "spherical information" when taking photos. If you shift stitch, you're relying on the lens to "force" a rectilinear projection. if you nodal stitch, it's the output from the sitching software that determines the projection. There are of course a multitude of different projections that can be chosen - some of which are actually much more suited to extreme wide-angle shots than rectilinear.

(Determining the correct nodal point is a no-brainer if you choose to stitch that way, so that's a bit of a red herring.)

Kind regards,


Gerald.

Someone else already pointed out that I could be wrong with this. I accept that I might have been wrong. I need to shoot a resolution chart to confirm this when I have my lenses back.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Is it too much to ask when you spend $50K on a camera system to do things the way you want it to?

Actually I think that the situation is actually worse when you are at this level. The systems become more focused on particular tasks versus universal tools.

 

[voidshatter]

Back to the topic, I would probably suggest the same as Chris: get two Sony sensors:

A7R / A7R-II / A9 and Canon TS-E for the wide angle (even the site owner is using this solution, how lame! come on, this is supposed to be a site to top-up faith for technical cameras!)

Pentax 645Z and *recently released* lenses such like the 28-45 super sharp.

These are a lot easier to use than a technical camera.

 

[darr]

Much as I appreciate the education, all this is bringing the SNR of the thread way down for me.

The longer I ponder this issue, the more confusing it gets

The way I see it now, I have three options:

1. Go for the best image quality: Meaning, keep the IQ180, get a tech cam, Rodenstock or similar lenses and invest the time and energy to master the whole process. I cannot sell the 645DF+ body because then the system is useless for any 'casual' photography. Therefore added cost, probably another $10-15K. In my present position in life, I may be able to come up with the money but not the time.

2. Stay where I am, almost best IQ: Keep the IQ180 back and the 645DF+ body and lenses I currently own, work harder at getting the most out of it. Not the best solution for me philosophically but probably painless. Added cost: Nil, except for depreciation of present equipment, which applies equally to option 1.

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now. Same sensor as the IQ250, better handling and better high ISO performance than the Phase system and at an incredible price. Added cost: nil, if I sell the Phase and buy this, may have quite a bit of money left over. Down side: IQ perhaps not quite as good (need to do more reading on this).

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different? At present the Pentax lens line up is much like the Sony E Mount, very few and expensive.

If MFD is not a good fit, I would move on and stick with what has worked for you in the past. Having gear that is technically beautiful is quite ugly while collecting dust.

Good luck with your decision.

Kind regards,
Darr

 

[Jamgolf]

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now.

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different?

Pradeep

Based on your intended usage (wildlife and landscapes) and thoughts you've expressed in the thread I would say a Pentax 645Z is a worthy option.

I used a Pentax 645D for about 1.5 years as my entry into the MF world. Very well built, weather sealed and a perfect layout of controls. I used a lot of Pentax and Hasselblad V lenses (with Fotodiox Pro adapter). I would recommend the following lenses based on experience:

- Pentax 90mm: Weather sealed and perhaps the only medium format lens with image stabilization. Superb image quality.
- Hasseblad V 40mm CFE IF
- Hasselblad V 250mm Superachromat

In my experience these three lenses have stellar image quality. There are certainly others that you might want to try.

By all accounts 645Z is an improvement over 645D which is very good to begin with - so you won't be disappointed if you decide to go this route.

 

[Pradeep]

Back to the topic, I would probably suggest the same as Chris: get two Sony sensors:

A7R / A7R-II / A9 and Canon TS-E for the wide angle (even the site owner is using this solution, how lame! come on, this is supposed to be a site to top-up faith for technical cameras!)

Pentax 645Z and *recently released* lenses such like the 28-45 super sharp.

These are a lot easier to use than a technical camera.

Thanks Void.

I went one step further. I have the A7R and bought the Nikon 14-24 f2.8, fitted a Nikon-Canon adapter to it and then a Canon-Sony adapter (metabones)on top of that and plugged it into the A7R. Great pictures of the northern lights in Iceland. I've used my Leica 50 Summilux on the A7R too, along with many of the Canon lenses, including the big 600 MkII. All work well, with limitations of sorts of course.

While everyone here waxes eloquent on the merits of the tech camera with the CCD backs (I do not deny the ultimate quality of such a combo), people do not accept the fact that it is a very limiting set up, perfect for when you have good light and ample time. If I had a super expensive digital back, I would also want it to be able to do night skies, cityscapes at night, pre-dawn landscapes. I would also occasionally want to be able to take pictures of my family without having to pose them while I fiddled with the focus/LCC etc.

And before people say I should use a 'casual camera' for family portraits, I would suggest that if you can take pictures of models with the IQ180, why not aspire for the same quality for your own family? Can't do that with a tech camera.

 

[Paul2660]

Much as I appreciate the education, all this is bringing the SNR of the thread way down for me.

The longer I ponder this issue, the more confusing it gets

The way I see it now, I have three options:

1. Go for the best image quality: Meaning, keep the IQ180, get a tech cam, Rodenstock or similar lenses and invest the time and energy to master the whole process. I cannot sell the 645DF+ body because then the system is useless for any 'casual' photography. Therefore added cost, probably another $10-15K. In my present position in life, I may be able to come up with the money but not the time.

2. Stay where I am, almost best IQ: Keep the IQ180 back and the 645DF+ body and lenses I currently own, work harder at getting the most out of it. Not the best solution for me philosophically but probably painless. Added cost: Nil, except for depreciation of present equipment, which applies equally to option 1.

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now. Same sensor as the IQ250, better handling and better high ISO performance than the Phase system and at an incredible price. Added cost: nil, if I sell the Phase and buy this, may have quite a bit of money left over. Down side: IQ perhaps not quite as good (need to do more reading on this).

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different? At present the Pentax lens line up is much like the Sony E Mount, very few and expensive.

Lot of good advice has been given here, so much you may need to back a way for a day or two.

My thoughts on this last post:

1. Find a dealer, and work with them, especially if you are interested in a tech solution
2. Read Don's post, on tech cameras, in this forum. The tech solution is totally different than what you are doing now. And unless you move to a CMOS back at the same time, the workflow will be possibly more than you want to take on.
3. Don't forget, you own a 180. This is still the top end back from Phase and really anyone else.
4. Hopefully if you end up not deciding to keep the 180, you can work with a dealer that can help you move to another back/camera.
5. If you sell the 180 on the web, I would for sure be careful.
6. Sorry you are not closer to Arkansas, I would love to meet you and show you my setup, Arca and you could use your back and see the workflow and take the images back to consider. If you get down this way, look me up as I can easily take some time to show you the tech (Arca) solution. PM me if you need my contact info, but it's on my website also.
7. Consider the CI Lake Tahoe event in April. There will be a lot of tech gear there, and at least 1 or 2 CMOS backs.
8. As nice as the Pentax Z sounds, it's not for me, as there are no movements, and no service center in the US. At least for now. For some this not a big deal, but for me it is. Everyone handles the stress of a repair differently.

I wish you the best on the decision, but sitting on a IQ180 for now may be the best decision. Phase will be bring out new backs either this year or next. Your 180 will hold the best resale value of any Phase back out there IMO.

Sincerely
Paul

 

[voidshatter]

Before I dumped my IQ260 CCD back I asked myself the following questions:

Do I shoot portrait in studio? Hell no. CCD is best for this, but no I don't shoot these.

Do I shoot wildlife or wedding? No, and CCD would be not suitable for these.

Do I shoot landscape / cityscape? Yes. What do I shoot? The milky way, the sunset and the sunrise (backlight). Nothing else. Do I benefit from CCD? No. Do I get better image quality than a D800E? Hell no. For 3 stops of less DR, I get alignment issues for bracketing. I get tiling issues from the CCD. I get limitation from the darkframe NR. The very limited Live View also made me miss great moments. Forget about the milky way.

Do I shoot interior? Probably, but a Canon 17 TS-E or 11-24 should serve better.

Is there any good to keep the IQ260 collecting dust? A future trade-in is possible should there be a fullframe CMOS back, but I see it depreciating at a speed no slower than other digital backs. It would be more worthwhile to find something else that I can actually use while I wait for a possible fullframe CMOS back, and produce something better than the D800E for my use cases.

These pretty much concluded the inevitable fate of my IQ260 getting dumped. It was a hard decision. Sunk cost had been holding me back from making a rational decision because I had been prone to loss aversion and framing effects for months.

After all, you would have to look forward anyway. Determine your use cases. Find what's best for you and move on.

 

[MGrayson]

I don't know any tech cam users who "do not accept the fact that it is a very limiting setup". I sure find it a limiting setup. I also like it, but have other systems for other needs.

--Matt

 

[kdphotography]

...

Is it too much to ask when you spend $50K on a camera system to do things the way you want it to?

I think your expectations are unrealistic.

You seem desirous of the best image quality in every situation with a rather specialized $50K+ MFDB system. A jack of all trades and master of none is not the realm here. In other words, you can buy a $100K sports car but it still won't haul trash to the dump like a $20K beat up pickup truck.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what the image quality potential is of your system if you have difficulty extracting that potential and you simply don't enjoy using it either.

I'd look towards something that you enjoy using----that makes you want to take the camera system out and use it. I'm just shaking my head at where this thread has gone with all its psuedo-academic (emphasis on pseudo) cerebral vomiting. If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.

Maybe the easiest enjoyable combination is your A7r and a Pentax 645z. Maybe a cute little Alpa TC and your IQ180. I dunno. I do know that I'd want something that made me happy regardless of system or format.

I think if I were in your quandary and actually read all the psuedo-cerebral DxO-it-was-on-the-internet-so-must-be-better-than-taking-actual-photos comments, I would just buy a boat.

ken

 

[Pradeep]

Lot of good advice has been given here, so much you may need to back a way for a day or two.

My thoughts on this last post:

1. Find a dealer, and work with them, especially if you are interested in a tech solution
2. Read Don's post, on tech cameras, in this forum. The tech solution is totally different than what you are doing now. And unless you move to a CMOS back at the same time, the workflow will be possibly more than you want to take on.
3. Don't forget, you own a 180. This is still the top end back from Phase and really anyone else.
4. Hopefully if you end up not deciding to keep the 180, you can work with a dealer that can help you move to another back/camera.
5. If you sell the 180 on the web, I would for sure be careful.
6. Sorry you are not closer to Arkansas, I would love to meet you and show you my setup, Arca and you could use your back and see the workflow and take the images back to consider. If you get down this way, look me up as I can easily take some time to show you the tech (Arca) solution. PM me if you need my contact info, but it's on my website also.
7. Consider the CI Lake Tahoe event in April. There will be a lot of tech gear there, and at least 1 or 2 CMOS backs.
8. As nice as the Pentax Z sounds, it's not for me, as there are no movements, and no service center in the US. At least for now. For some this not a big deal, but for me it is. Everyone handles the stress of a repair differently.

I wish you the best on the decision, but sitting on a IQ180 for now may be the best decision. Phase will be bring out new backs either this year or next. Your 180 will hold the best resale value of any Phase back out there IMO.

Sincerely
Paul

Paul thank you. It is my day off so I am here more than perhaps I should be

I am not inclined to go the dealer route for reasons mentioned before. They will only try to sell you what they carry (I don't blame them). I am also not happy with what I believe to be somewhat misleading representation of the upgrade pathway on initial purchase. But that's all history.

I am not into shifting and movements. I had the Canon 24TSE MkII and sold it a couple of years ago, did not use it enough to justify keeping it.

I really appreciate your offer. Perhaps when I have the time, a small tech camera and a digital back would be the order of the day. Until then it will have to be a more versatile solution.

 

[mjr]

Meh, this is such a weird thread, go and try some stuff and pick whatever you like, people can only comment on what suits themselves.

For what it's worth, within a month of owning a Leica S I had sold a D800, D800E, lots of zeiss glass and a RX1, for me the difference in handling and output has put the S a million miles from anything I have shot before, most importantly I just love walking around with it, shooting everything from candid family stuff to commercial work, it makes me want to use it. Does it do everything, nope, never had a camera that did, do I care, nope, it does what I want it to do perfectly, therefore it's the perfect solution for me and me alone, it may be for other people but I'm not much bothered about that.

Just try stuff, keeping a camera you don't use because you will lose money on it is daft, get on with it and buy something you will enjoy using, life's too short and it's photography not life and death! I will say that I have run 2 workshops recently with owners of the 645z, neither stood up to the conditions here, both lost the use of the top screen in low temperatures and both owners picked up the S and were blown away, does that mean they will change? I wouldn't have thought so, should they? Not if it doesn't suit them, is the Z for me? Not even a little bit, just looking through any viewfinder after the S is a disappointment. What I'm saying here is find something for you, try stuff, pick something that will fire your creativity, I honestly don't think there is a camera available today that won't produce great results if you point it at something that interests you. The 180 isn't working for you so get rid.

Just my opinion of course!

Mat

 

[Pradeep]

I think your expectations are unrealistic.

You seem desirous of the best image quality in every situation with a rather specialized $50K+ MFDB system. A jack of all trades and master of none is not the realm here. In other words, you can buy a $100K sports car but it still won't haul trash to the dump like a $20K beat up pickup truck.

Quite frankly, it doesn't matter what the image quality potential is of your system if you have difficulty extracting that potential and you simply don't enjoy using it either.

You may be right, Ken, my expectations are unrealistic but then I was sold the system as a 'panacea' of sorts. Heck, existing users (all having bought into the hype) were saying you can do 'everything' with it, the dealer at the time agreed with all of that too. My naivete I know and I am to blame. But then I found out that the reality is quite sobering. One guy said he routinely took images at ISO800 from moving boats without any problems. Another guy said you tell the difference in an 8X10 print. Somebody else said the DR was the best of any camera out there. I bought into it of course. We all hear what we want to hear really.

Maybe the easiest enjoyable combination is your A7r and a Pentax 645z. Maybe a cute little Alpa TC and your IQ180. I dunno.

I cannot keep both the Pentax and the IQ180, that would be too much especially given I also need my Canon stuff for wildlife too.

I do know that I'd want something that made me happy regardless of system or format.

Agree completely. I would also like a system that is being used frequently instead of only every couple of months under specific conditions.

 

[jerome_m]

Much as I appreciate the education, all this is bringing the SNR of the thread way down for me.

The longer I ponder this issue, the more confusing it gets

The way I see it now, I have three options:

1. Go for the best image quality: Meaning, keep the IQ180, get a tech cam, Rodenstock or similar lenses and invest the time and energy to master the whole process. I cannot sell the 645DF+ body because then the system is useless for any 'casual' photography. Therefore added cost, probably another $10-15K. In my present position in life, I may be able to come up with the money but not the time.

2. Stay where I am, almost best IQ: Keep the IQ180 back and the 645DF+ body and lenses I currently own, work harder at getting the most out of it. Not the best solution for me philosophically but probably painless. Added cost: Nil, except for depreciation of present equipment, which applies equally to option 1.

3. Sell everything, move to a different MF system (I definitely want to stay with MF at present): My own reading suggests the best bang for the buck is the Pentax 645Z right now. Same sensor as the IQ250, better handling and better high ISO performance than the Phase system and at an incredible price. Added cost: nil, if I sell the Phase and buy this, may have quite a bit of money left over. Down side: IQ perhaps not quite as good (need to do more reading on this).

Thoughts on this would be much appreciated. Anybody here used both Phase and the Pentax? Is the quality that much different? At present the Pentax lens line up is much like the Sony E Mount, very few and expensive.

1: I don't agree that tech cams are synonyms of "best image quality". I know one reads otherwise on internet forum, I also know that they have specific advantages because one can use movements and I know that their lenses are pretty good. But I also noted the lenses you use and got some ideas about your approach and it would seem that a tech cam would not be a good choice in your case.

2: You can keep your present camera, but you would have to use it differently or you would simply get more of the same. I don't know how you could do that, you would have to find out yourself. Maybe meeting other users with the same camera would help, you could see how they use their camera.

3: Any camera with the 50 mpix Sony sensor would have 30 mpix less than your present camera. That is the same difference than between a 40" and a 50" print.
3b: There are plenty of lenses for the Pentax. You can use older lenses.
3c: As to lenses and IQ, it depends a lot on your practice. All MF lenses are excellent if you use them at f/8-f/11. Do you do that or do you want to use limited depth of field? In the later case, there are indeed differences.

 

[Bryan Stephens]

Voidshatter. I have owned and shot the P45+, IQ140, IQ180, and now the IQ260, with both Rodenstock and Schneider lenses on my Cambo. I have also owned and shot the D800, D800e and the D810 along with numerous Zeiss lenses and Nikon G lenses.

The images that I have obtained with both systems are very good in their own right, but there is no comparison between the images that I have captured with the IQ backs compared to those of the Nikon bodies when I print them in larger scale.

If you do not print large, then the Nikons are absolutely fine, but I like to print my images 36" or longer on the long side, so the extra detail I get from the IQ backs enables me to do just that, where when I have tried with the Nikon images they look good, but they are missing the extreme detail I achieve with my Tech cam.

However, do I think the difference in the price points is equal to the difference in the image quality? It is an objective question, but in my opinion, and for what I do with the cameras, no. I also prefer the workflow of using the tech cam as well. As I age, I am sure this will change.