Should I or not?

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

My understanding is that linking to an image posted on the net is always OK. It is also my understanding that "Voidshatter" made proper attributions.

Best regards
Erik

Void

Firstly I don't know whether you should be posting other peoples photos without permission.
Secondly some of these are obvious HDR images that can be done with any sensor
Thirdly I had a sony sensor and didn't like it

It's not for everyone, this is the bit you don't seem to understand. I have never said that you are wrong for liking the new CMOS from Sony, but you continually insinuate that everyone else is for not jumping onboard.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

The really bright idea is of course to read the DxO charts before buying a camera.

Unfortunately, DxO mark has only tested a few Phase One cameras. Also DxO-mark doesn't test long exposures, which are of particular interest to "Voidshatter". He has done extensive tests with several MFDB and found that they are not suitable for his kind of work.

Best regards
Erik

Read it again: If you're happy reading the DxO charts, stay at home read it online, sell all your cameras, save some $ and call it a day.:dh2:

:salute:

 

[kdphotography]

Ken,

I'm intrigued by your boat idea.

Do you have any suggestions as to size, etc.?

Are larger boats better?

Please tell us more.

Thanks, Steve

Just for you, Steve.

Girls In Bikinis On Boats

This thread got old long ago, so "Excuse me while I go buy a boat"

 

[Pradeep]

"Phase is just priced too high."

So don't buy it.

Sadly, I did (unless you intended sarcasm with this remark in which case I must confess I missed it).

 

[f8orbust]

The fact is that Phase is priced too high to begin with...

It's all to do with the (highly dubious in practice now that newer tech has fewer MP) 'keep 'em on the upgrade merry-go-round' .. sadly it looks like this 'reassuringly expensive' pricing model isn't going any place fast.

However, on the used market prices are taking a beating. A real beating. Something has changed. Here and now, there is just no way I would ever buy a new P1 back with my own, hard earned cash. If anyone reading this would, then - well - good for you.

The article in the New York Times on Peter Lik is interesting in terms of retail price vs. value. Parallels to be drawn, and definitely worth a read.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

I have been an MFD skeptic before buying my P45+ and I am still an MFD skeptic. Now, my shooting may differ from yours. I am the base ISO, camera on tripod, always mirror lockup kind of guy.

The reason I went into MFD was that I bought a couple of Hasselblad's Zeiss lenses, because I wanted to find out if the Zeisses had some special look and those were the cheapest Zeiss lenses I could find. I did not find a lot of "Zeissness" but liked those two and wanted an MFDSLR to put them on. P45+s started to show up below 10000$US, which felt acceptable to me.

So I got the P45+, an 555/ELD and a couple of more lenses. So, I found what I have expected. Good resolution, lot of moiré, colour rendition somewhat special. But, I liked working with the stuff. My first real world image was this one (larger size: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Articles/MFDJourney/RawImages/Samples/20130630-CF043307.jpg )

I have done 40-50% of my shooting on the P45+ recently, but none of my P45+ images made it to my latest exhibition. I love the images I am shooting here around, but my images in the mountains shown in the exhibitions were a bit boring.

Best regards
Erik

Sadly, I did (unless you intended sarcasm with this remark in which case I must confess I missed it).

 

[mmbma]

yeah. i'm glad i have a 800e

 

[Landscapelover]

I am not a pro, just a serious enthusiast and quite passionate about photography. I am not averse to spending money on it either, heck I've done a lot of that already, not just in cameras and lenses but all the other things that go with them. I want the best that money can buy and yet there is the law of diminishing returns. If it costs ten times more to get that extra 10% then it is not for me. Perhaps that is the crux of the matter and maybe I realize that too late in the game.

Hi Pradeep,
I am exactly the same as you, not a pro, just a serious enthusiast (too serious) who want the best IQ.
I've owned several systems and want to share my experience.
You've already had one of the best MFDB. I don't believe the 50mp CMOS is a better sensor (I've had both IQ180/260 and Pentax 645z). IQ wise, nothing can compare the IQ180.
If you try the tech cam with the IQ180, you may find out you achieve your goal of the best IQ especially with wide angle. No DSLR can match it even the Leica S. More than that, to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.
Selling the IQ180 to buy Pentax may not be a good idea as there is no way you will get a better IQ. The price of IQ180 is too low in a 2nd-hand market.
I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
Best regards,
Pramote

 

[JohnnyR]

No more pixel peeping? :ROTFL:

Get something magic instead!

:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

 

[GrahamWelland]

I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
Best regards,
Pramote

What Pramote says! Even though I have an IQ150 now (from an IQ260) I expect that I'll pick up an IQ180 at some point on the used market when I can afford it to complement it. It's still the quality king when exposed correctly (as opposed to the shadow recovery king which the iq150 certainly seems to be vs my 260).

 

[Pradeep]

Hi Pradeep,
I am exactly the same as you, not a pro, just a serious enthusiast (too serious) who want the best IQ.
I've owned several systems and want to share my experience.
You've already had one of the best MFDB. I don't believe the 50mp CMOS is a better sensor (I've had both IQ180/260 and Pentax 645z). IQ wise, nothing can compare the IQ180.
If you try the tech cam with the IQ180, you may find out you achieve your goal of the best IQ especially with wide angle. No DSLR can match it even the Leica S. More than that, to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.
Selling the IQ180 to buy Pentax may not be a good idea as there is no way you will get a better IQ. The price of IQ180 is too low in a 2nd-hand market.
I take photographs purely for my pleasure. By using the IQ180/260 with the tech cam, I feel I don't regret of buying them. I bought the IQ180 back with a very low price in like new condition with <500 shutter counts.
If you buy digital MF brand new from the dealer, you've had to prepare you will lost >1/2 of your money. You don't want to use your retirement or college funds for this.
I'd recommend you to either enjoy it (explore tech cam?) or cut loose and move on.
Best regards,
Pramote

Pramote, thank you. It is good to hear from somebody who is an enthusiast like myself.

I've been on workshops with people who bring the Phase system but then it stays in the car. Most end up using a regular DSLR. One lady had the 240 LS lens on the camera with "The Cube" and it was all perched precariously on a Gitzo 2 series tripod. She barely ever used it during the entire workshop. I wonder, if like myself, they bought it without really thinking it all through.

I've been deliberating this for a while now. I even looked (online) at various tech camera options, working out the price factor, the hassle factor, the time factor and the end results. Granted, nothing can compare with actual hands-on experience, but short of doing that, I tried everything else I could - on a theoretical basis.

I realized that I just don't have the time for tech cameras. For me, the solution has to be more versatile than what the techs offer. As it stands, the DF645+ with the IQ180 itself is quite limiting for my needs. From my own use over the past year the images I made have not been 'stunning' although a few of them have been so detailed that the large prints are truly impressive. I have tried, believe me, to use it as much as possible. I've done the MLUP, self timer, sturdy tripod, etc etc. Even took it on a hike in upstate New York when I was there for fall watching. Hard to take a tech camera when you are with the wife and friends, they do not have the patience.

If I have to rely on a tech camera every time to get the best out of the DB then it is not for me. Remember, I am not into portraits, fashion or product photography and probably do 60-70% wildlife.

As I bought the IQ180 new, I am going to take a bath on selling it, but the price is dropping like a stone and the longer I keep it the less I am going to get for it, so it is better for me to just get out now. If there was a full frame CMOS back available now, with the promise of a new body on the horizon AND if the upgrade path was not quite so steep, I may have stayed with the Phase system.

Simply keeping it for the elusive IQ advantage is not enough for me. Yes, initially that was my thought, get the best image quality money can buy, but I have changed my mind given the direction in which MF is headed.

I am still very much in the abyss, but not as deep.

Pradeep

 

[Bryan Stephens]

to me, it is my meditation. It's Zen-like experience.

My thoughts exactly. I have been recently tempted to unload my IQ back but in comparison to shooting my DSLR, I do prefer it much more. I just wish I had more opportunity to shoot it.

 

[Pradeep]

My thoughts exactly. I have been recently tempted to unload my IQ back but in comparison to shooting my DSLR, I do prefer it much more. I just wish I had more opportunity to shoot it.

My Zen moment is simply standing behind the camera, whether it is watching a baby elephant doing its thing or a beautiful sunset in all its glory. The camera does not matter much at that point. The joy of being there and recording that moment for my own pleasure is what it's about. The anticipation of how that image will later print out simply adds to the fun.

It is strange, I may have barely slept the previous night, and yet the thrill of a pre-dawn sighting of wildebeest on the plains of Africa or the first rays of the sun bursting upon the dark landscape from the mountain top energize me like nothing else.

OTOH, going to work on a Monday morning through New York traffic is always a chore :cussing:

 

[Landscapelover]

If I have to rely on a tech camera every time to get the best out of the DB then it is not for me. Remember, I am not into portraits, fashion or product photography and probably do 60-70% wildlife.

Pradeep

Pradeep,

Look from your style of photography and your main interest in wildlife, MFDB may not suit you well.
If you are not happy with the the IQ180 and don't like tech cam, there's no point to stick with it. I will not bet on Phase One new body.
If I were you, I'd cut loose selling the IQ180 now. The price of IQ180 in a 2nd-hand market will not get better.
Although Pentax 645Z is the closest to Nikon/Canon (automatic/waterproof/price), it's a big camera and has a limitation of telephoto lenses. It's certainly not for a wide life. If I were you, I will stick with 35mm DSLR which has had lots of advantages especially with wildlife. I don't think IQ of 50 mp of 35mm-DSLR will be much different from the 50 mp of 645-DSLR. My 2nd-hand Canon 600mm IS still has the same price as when I bought 4 years ago!

Life is too short! Enjoy it.

Pramote

 

[Pradeep]

Pradeep,

Look from your style of photography and your main interest in wildlife, MFDB may not suit you well.
If you are not happy with the the IQ180 and don't like tech cam, there's no point to stick with it. I will not bet on Phase One new body.
If I were you, I'd cut loose selling the IQ180 now. The price of IQ180 in a 2nd-hand market will not get better.
Although Pentax 645Z is the closest to Nikon/Canon (automatic/waterproof/price), it's a big camera and has a limitation of telephoto lenses. It's certainly not for a wide life. If I were you, I will stick with 35mm DSLR which has had lots of advantages especially with wildlife. I don't think IQ of 50 mp of 35mm-DSLR will be much different from the 50 mp of 645-DSLR. My 2nd-hand Canon 600mm IS still has the same price as when I bought 4 years ago!

Life is too short! Enjoy it.

Pramote

Pramote, I have made up my mind. I am working with a dealer (not Phase) to sell my IQ180 and have also ordered the Pentax. There was a special deal on it until yesterday where the 55 2.8 lens was free (a $1200 value). Since I had already decided to get the Pentax before my trip to Africa in May, I couldn't refuse the great bargain.

In 2007 I was in Kenya with a Canon 5D and a 40D. The images I took with the former are still great to look at. The Pentax is in every respect much better, except for fps (3/sec which is the same) and the size, which I can live with. If a camera has decent AF, fps, low-light capability it is quite useful in the Serengeti. For wildlife the subject matter is way more important. I mean you can get better and better images of the Monument Valley as your photo gear improves over the years, but in wildlife, something like a great wildebeest crossing with over 20,000 animals is a once in a lifetime event.

The other great thing about MF and wildlife is that you can crop into the image a lot more. You don't often have the time or luxury of composition and being able to crop is a great asset. I am also more of the 'animal in habitat' kind of person and don't do birds much, so for me a huge zoom is not essential (sold my 600 MkII a few months ago).

So I can very easily see myself using both my 1DX and the Pentax in Africa. There are no long hikes involved, you shoot from a stationary vehicle, so size is not important (if I could heft the 1DX with a 600 on it, I can surely use the Pentax too).

As far as value is concerned, I agree with you completely. The time to get out of the Phase system is NOW! I too sold my Leica lenses and also my used 500 f4 at a profit after a few years . The Phase gear is/was priced out of proportion to its real value and they were able to keep it that way by restricting sale outlets and by the relatively low number of used units on the open market. Everybody who bought into it is now stuck with a very expensive piece of camera equipment that is rapidly becoming obsolete. They can't sell it for fear of losing too much money and yet if they keep it for too long it is going to happen any way. This is a dilemma that I have struggled with for several months now.

Of course if you are happy with it then value does not come into the picture. But, at some point, as other technologies/manufacturers catch up or surpass what you have and are way more affordable, the inherent value of what you own drops dramatically - as it is happening already in my case.

I am glad I finally made the decision. Yes, it is a huge loss financially but it was only going to get worse for me.

Pradeep

Here is a pano of the wildbeest crossing taken with the 5D at ISO 800. It hangs as a 7ft X 2 ft print over my desk in my study. I am sure the Pentax can do a much better job.

 

[Guy Mancuso]

Agree just being there is the magic. Getting it on a sensor is the bonus.

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Pramote, I have made up my mind. I am working with a dealer (not Phase) to sell my IQ180 and have also ordered the Pentax. There was a special deal on it until yesterday where the 55 2.8 lens was free (a $1200 value). Since I had already decided to get the Pentax before my trip to Africa in May, I couldn't refuse the great bargain.

Great move, I'm sure you'll like the camera. Just a bit of advice that I learned myself on the go:
- Don't overexpose, the 645Z has no highlight headroom, but you can push 4 stops & +100% shadows just fine.
- TAv mode is your friend, set max ISO to 12K, and then just pick the shutter speed and aperture as appropriate, the matrix metering is very very good.
- 12K ISO looks fine. Like film grain in B&W.
- Live view exposure does not work like on Canon cameras, any mode other than M or X has auto-brightness, while the "exposure simulation" on M and X is still affected by metering, and is incapable of showing 5EV above or below the metered exposure, something Pentax really needs to rectify with an update.
- Center point AF seems a tad faster than 27 or 9 point AF for single shots.
- The 150/2.8 is a very fast and also surprisingly light lens, about the same size as the 55/2.8, so you may want to try it out. Sharp from f/5.6. The 120mm Macro is also excellent, but 50% heavier.
- You can see the preview faster if you turn off the histogram.

 

[Landscapelover]

Hi Pradeep,

I'm glad you've finally made a decision and it sounds like a great idea. I've had both Canon and Pentax 645Z myself and they seem to be a good combination for wide life and beyond.
What I like the most about the 645Z besides the sensor are their price, advanced technology, the closest to 35mm-DSLR, and water resistance. It's the only handheld MFDSLR I've ever owned for low-light situation.
The lenses are very reasonable price. I've got several lenses from Japan dealers via Ebay website and they are very reliable.
Each camera systems suit different photographers. I am glad you are finally happy.

Best regards,
Pramote

 

[flyrcairplanes]

Congrats Pradeep. I have been lurking in the shadows reading this thread. I went through the same issues a few months ago. I loved the Phase 160 but I never used it as much as i thought I would and wanted more ISO flexibility. I fought with the poor upgrade offers of Phase and the thought of losing a lot of money on resale. Finally just had to give someone a good deal and get out. I am also looking at the Pentax and hope you will post updates of your experience.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Of the three people I know personally who've bought the 645z, not one has been unhappy with the camera body and shooting experience. A couple shoot with their tech cams but bring the Pentax for everything other than pure landscape (and actually landscape when the circumstances require quick changes).