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Let's begin a discussion on technical cameras

dchew

Well-known member
In early 2011 there was a convergence of situations that brought me to MF and the technical camera: A relatively new EPSON 7900 that was exposing the limitations of my Canon system, Phase One’s IQ announcement, Mark Dubovoy over at Lula was waxing on about some new Alpa camera called the “STC”, and our company gave out windfall bonuses. The icing on the cake was finding a wonderful forum called “GetDPI.” Notice my join date is 2 Feb 2011; no coincidence there.

I rented a Cambo DS, 55mm Digitar, and P65+. Then an Arca and Sinar. Ultimately I bought the Alpa STC site unseen (Dodd was not an Alpa dealer then). I’m rough on equipment (maybe not a rough as Graham :) ), and felt Alpa’s design had fewer parts, tabs and controls that would catch and get damaged or lost. Went to PODAS April 2011 with a camera but no digital back. Kevin Raber saw me coming 2000 miles away and the rest is, well, you know.

I think the term technical camera is probably the most misleading description in photography. There just isn’t a whole lot of “technical” there. As Don points out in his Don-CAD drawing above, it’s just a flange that maybe can slide and/or tilt. We even call an Alpa TC a technical camera; how ridiculous is that??

What I like most about technical cameras is the workflow in the field. Others have hinted at this above and I’ve said this in other threads: Ever since I picked up that Cambo DS for the first time it felt to me like the ball and chain was cut. No viewfinder, no light meter, no auto focus - just the freedom to think and do. To be honest though, I’m lazy. This tool forces me to not cut corners, and that is why I believe my photography is better when using a technical camera. It is definitely not for everyone. Most people think all the DSLR features are liberating; I don’t. Ironically the one thing I loved about my Canon 5DII was its live view; it was like ground glass for 35mm.

Initially I wasn’t doing much stitching; never been much of a blender in PS. There is something magical to me about a single capture, an “event” if you will. I do stitch quite a bit more now; more on that later…

I started with the sk43 and 100hr, and then added the 70hr and sk150. Like Don, my lens choice has been a bit of a journey. I sold the 43 and bought the 40hr when Alpa released their 17mm TS adapter and 17SB lenses. Now I have 40hr, sk60xl, 90hrsw, sk150. So between Rodi and Schneider I am an equal opportunity spender.

I stitch quite a bit now for three reasons: First, I like the pano format, especially around that 2.25:1 ratio. That is exactly what results from a 18mm horizontal shift – 40x90mm. Second, it makes lenses more versatile. I can backpack with the 60/90 combo and have essentially a 29-58mm kit in 35mm-format terms. Third, the stitched image is well over 100mp.

This all brings me to the ground glass. I recently started using it more, and in fact the camera is packed with the GG mounted. GG is still the only way in the field to see how a stitched image will look. I don’t focus with it; I just use it for framing. To this day I shake my head in how perfect the STC is for me. It has almost all the features I want and nothing I don’t. Since all my lenses now have short barrel mounts, the 17mm TS adapter is permanently mounted on the STC. That means the body essentially has built-in tilt or swing. I do occasionally wish I could have rise fall AND stitch capability. But I am not willing to give up the compact design of the STC to get it.

There are a few things that bug me about the workflow: I wish sensors worked in a way that didn’t need a shutter to open and close; just tell the back how long you want it to “record” the photons. That would eliminate the connections and sync cords. As mentioned above I do miss live view with a real-time focus confirmation. But, due to the HPF ring accuracy it is only an issue when tilting. I wish the lenses were better sealed from the environment. I wish I had a razor sharp, 150-300mm f/4 zoom that weighed under 500gms! I wish my eyes could see the HPF ring numbers and GG the way they did when I was 20.

I do still get a big kick out of people coming up to me and asking what the heck that thing is. :thumbs:

Dave
 

jagsiva

Active member
One major reason for moving to tech cams that I missed...

THE SHUTTER! The DF, FP shutter is massive compared to the leaf shutters in the tech lenses. The shutter induced vibrations on the DF were driving me bananas, and this was the trigger for me to even start looking at tech cams. The DF, may've been workable if there was an option to keep the FP shutter open and use only the LS when a supported lens was used, but this was not the case.
 

Nutcracker

New member
I went to Tech system two years ago, starting with Alpa FPS, and adapters for my Nikon and PhaseOne lenses and IQ back.
Immersion was deepened rapidly, addiction is irreversible, and no cures are sought.

Currently, STC has joined the FPS, with Rodenstock HR 32, then SK 90, and most recently HR 50.

My journey began with my first camera as a child, then Nikon system for over 40 years.

I shot mainly nature and wildlife, especially birds, and family and sailboat activities. For me, digital started with the Nikon D100 as addition to film F2, F3, F4.

Such an outdoor life always invoked interest in Landscape, but my efforts were nearly always intensely frustrating until the D3x was launched. At long last I began to feel reasonably pleased with some of my landscape efforts.

I started following this and Michael Reichmann’s sites, got better at composition, lighting and seeing before pushing the shutter button, but wanted even more quality from my efforts.

Medium Format digital began to tempt on my readings of GetDpi and Lula, and I enrolled on a PODAS for introduction to MF. That was cancelled due to insufficient numbers, but I was able to transfer to the advanced course for those already using MF, a little over 3 years ago.

So, I was in at the deep end, but what a great experience, learning from others and from Kevin Raber and his friends. Before the course finished, I had my DF with 80 and 45 mm lenses with !Q140 (not yet in production) ordered. More PODAS followed rapidly, !Q180, SK 240 LS.

Results improved a lot with practice, seeing more, planning more, shooting less.

The benefits spilled over into my nature and birding photography.

I became more taken by the quality of images possible on the Phase system, but wanted the frame edges and corners to match the centre. I persuaded myself that tech was next, but as a gentle introductary route decided on the Alpa FPS with adapters for my existing lenses.

Phase lens adapters were manual aperture only, no use with my lenses, returned and awaiting auto version.

Nikon PC 85 mm was stunning in centre, needed aperture closed down to diffraction levels in centre for really good edges, so I wanted more, again.
Nikon PC 24 mm IC too small for IQ180, although ok 50-60mb file.

Next step after a few months was HR32 in FPS mount. At last, every deficiency (except mine own) was gone, further improvement in tools not possible.

Then, I desired greater flexibility, so invested in STC with intermediate adapter so I could use the HR32. I have followed with SK 90, and more recently HR 50, both in SB34 mounts and FPS 17 mm Tilt adapter.

I mainly use the STC now rather than the FPS.

I just love the Alpa system and tech lenses. I work much more slowly and deliberately. Often I do not make a photograph. I look much more at my surroundings, see much more, plan much more.
I usually put my Alpa iPhone convertor on the phone with the Efinder App open when I am looking around, with settings for my lenses to help me see and frame possible photographs.

When I do shoot, it is nearly always on tripod with cube, but I can handhold reliably at 1/60 on both STC and FPS with HR32 and HR50, in street and at times on a boat.

Wish list now is Alpa/Phase auto adapter for SK 240, because the slap of the DF mechanism is a real pain.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Harry, Graham, Dog, Darr, Stephen. Phillip, Jag, Dave, & Nut (and this is the last time I'll be doing the roll call :D )

This is exactly what I had envisioned when I started this thread; a web version of people sitting around a table sharing thoughts, ideas, experiences and not being afraid to ask questions. Lets see if we can keep this flow going!

I glad I'm not the only one who had forgotten to remove the pesky rear cap. I remember being deep in a forest and about to get my first capture when I had that WTF moment. Nothing I did worked until I almost gave up thinking I broke something and began tearing down the system. That's when I saw the rear cap. Thankfully I was alone. And rest assured once that happened it has never happened again.

Another neat "gotta-ya" is the little lever that opens and closes the shutter. I was set up somewhere with fast moving light and was in a rush when I tried to get the capture and couldn't work the shutter. I keep pressing the release without any movement until I took a breath and looked at the lens. The lever had been bumped in the bag just enough to open it slightly. Needless to say that is now one of the first things I check (and double check) as I mount the camera on the head.

It's these "little" things that will cause you to loose sleep, and yell and scare the tourists.

Don
 
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Don Libby

Well-known member
Choosing a tech camera, heck any type of camera is subjective and very personal experience. What fit's me or anyone else might not for another person. Stepping back a little, I remember when I first began looking at MF. At first I thought I'd only get a Hassy until I held it and found I didn't like the way fir felt. I then tried a Mamiya and like it much more.

And once again at the risk of repeating myself - there's was a car commercial several years ago where the spokeswoman asks the questions, does your car return the favor when you turn it on? The same should be asked of our camera equipment. We're attempting to create what is best described as a one dimensional representational image of a multiple dimensional subject while trying to explain without words what caused you to do it. If you aren't turned on by the equipment you use it's my feelings that that lack of enthusiasm will show in your work.

Okay enough of the Zen stuff

Don
 

Smoothjazz

Active member
Coming from a large format system, I really miss the camera movements of the old cameras, especially back tilt for landscapes. I use the IQ180 back, and have tried the Alpa and Arca cameras, and owned the Arca Rm3di for a few years. The fundamental problem I encountered is focusing the image accurately; it is very hard to do with live view, or with any ground glass system. Note that Alpa does not even use a sliding GG, as they do not believe it can be accurate enough. With the Arca I used the Leica Distometer, but then you have to refer to cumbersome tables to set the focus, and the numbers have to be checked and rechecked for each lens. I considered the Linhof Techno, but read the very lengthy and excellent review on LuLa by Torger, where he contends that it is difficult to focus on the Techno ground glass with perfect accuracy. I tried to tether a Surface Pro, but found it very cumbersome too- hard to see the screen in the bright sun- not for me.
There is no doubt that some of us are using these technologies to take excellent images.
I guess my point is none of the systems are intuitive, or have the flow I had with large format.
My most recent venture has been to have a 680 GX converted to adapting my IQ180 back, but that has problematic, with problems getting the ground glass in register.
Up until recently, none of these systems allowed for back tilt; but Alpa now has the tilt adapter which can be added to the back standard.
If I had to start over, I might try the Alpa system again, although it is ultra-expensive!
 

Smoothjazz

Active member
P.S.-
I do agree that it is much more contemplative, and enjoyable to slow down and compose an image with a Tech Cam.
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
Question that may be more complicated to answer than i imagine:

What is the best system (Cambo/Arca/Alpa) if I want to use a ground glass with it (i.e. most convenient to use with GG)? Sliding back perhaps?

I've always been used to larger formats and their ground glasses, not to mention the lack of live view in most backs, so a GG would be nice. And LOL at the rear lens cap –*I realize that much earlier when I go "where's there image on the ground glass?". Problem never goes away.
WOW any answer is surely going to be very subjective.

In my limited experience I'd say the best system to use a ground glass is one with a sliding back mainly due to the lack of having to remove the back and then replace it afterwards. Might work okay inside a studio however if you standing on the edge of a 500' drop not so. Again not having direct experience just antidotal, I have read that there can be issues with misalignment using a sliding back.

Don

Yeah, I know I didn't answer your question....
 
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kdphotography

Well-known member
...
What is the best system (Cambo/Arca/Alpa) if I want to use a ground glass with it (i.e. most convenient to use with GG)? Sliding back perhaps?

....
Personal and subjective for sure. Don't forget Sinar ArTec too.

I think for those with USB3 enabled MFDBs, a better "ground glass" is the Surface Pro. :D But other MFDB users may like to go old school....

ken
 

Don Libby

Well-known member
One major reason for moving to tech cams that I missed...

THE SHUTTER! The DF, FP shutter is massive compared to the leaf shutters in the tech lenses. The shutter induced vibrations on the DF were driving me bananas, and this was the trigger for me to even start looking at tech cams. The DF, may've been workable if there was an option to keep the FP shutter open and use only the LS when a supported lens was used, but this was not the case.
Great comment on the shutter!

The other aspect I like about using my tech cam is the feeling I get while using it. There's a feeling of all the greats that came before me using much larger yet similar tools and achieving a level of competency I still strive for.

Don
 

jagsiva

Active member
In my limited experience I'd say the best system to use a ground glass is one with a sliding back mainly due to the lack of having to remove the back and then replace it afterwards. Might work okay inside a studio however if you standing on the edge of a 500' drop not so. Again not having direct experience just antidotal, I have read that there can be issues with misalignment using a sliding back.
On the issue of the Arca Rotaslide Sliding Back, it is extremely precise. So much so that a slight mishap in the anodizing of the first one I had was causing problems. My dealer swapped it out immediately, and the new one that I have been using for a couple of years now is perfect. I use the Rotaslide OR the Rotamount always. The Rotaslide for me is not really for the ground glass, but more for the larger shift options it gives me. With it on the RM3Di, I can have 20mm Rise, 30mm Fall, 40mm left, 40mm right, along with +/- 5 degrees of lens tilt or swing and instant transition to portrait/landscape sensor orientation. This amounts to a lot movement flexibility in what is still a relatively small/compact kit.
 

lance_schad

Workshop Member
What are rough price differences for the same lenses from the various tech cam manufacturers?

Alpa - Cambo - Arca
Harry please feel free use our Technical Camera Resource Center on our site that comprehensive information on all three of the brands you mentioned.

The Alpa and Cambo lenses are slightly more expensive since the both require a separate helical focusing mechanism for each lens, whereas the Arca-Swiss has its focusing mechanism built onto its "Tum" that not only provides the focusing for all the lenses in their 'R' mount , but also allows +/- 5mm of tilt or swing along lenses from 23mm to 240mm.

For the Cambo you need to add about $1500 per lens for their T/S mount (not available on all focal lengths or lens types) and on the Alpa you have to purchase specific adapters and use special SB lenses in some cases.


As far as pricing goes here is an example of pricing of similar kits:

We are holding a tech camera centric workshop with Rod Klukas in Charleston, South Carolina next month . We will have many different Arca-Swiss Cameras available for Film and Phase One / Mamiya LeafDigital backs available for use. Also Doug Peterson will be on hand to share his technical expertise as well.

Lance



Lance
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Great comment on the shutter!

The other aspect I like about using my tech cam is the feeling I get while using it. There's a feeling of all the greats that came before me using much larger yet similar tools and achieving a level of competency I still strive for.

Don
It's also one of the huge limitations, i.e. the shutter. You only have set speed increments, in full stops, 1", 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15, 1/30 etc. Many times, I have felt that I could have benefited with a 1/3 or even 1/2 step increment that the focals give. This may not be as critical with CMOS as you have a bit more range per shot.

The is a huge strength of the FPS and Alpa and I had so hoped that Arca's FS system would be a similar setup. However it came in a huge cost IMO and really has yet to ship. It's also dependent on 2 different external electronic controllers, both of them have yet to be proven in the field. The FPS has a much more traditional camera feel to it. What broke my back on the Arca FS was the need to change out all the first tubes, @500.00 per tube. 8K total for my system. it's still on my long list, but I need to see it, shoot with it and evaluate it, especially the wifi controller and the other modular piece, both of which take a cell phone battery (which I hope is easy to find).

The FPS is simplicity in the making. The only thing I don't understand about it still:

1. How wide a lens can be used on it and still allow movements. I would hope that I could use the 28mm and 35mm, and 40mm and still get full 15mm of movements.
2. Shutter vibration issues, as some have complained about this in posts, and others show no problems.

The other issue about Copals, is accuracy, which they don't have.

1/30 on many of mine records at 1/45 (and it's 1/45 as I can tweak the shutter and eventually get 1/30). None of them give me 1/250, instead I tend to get 1/180 or 1/350. They tend to be more accurate in the 1 second, to 1/15 range.

This may not bother most, but it's something I would prefer not to have to mess with and the FPS or Arca FS will allow more precision. Still don't know if the Arca FS is going to generate any vibration issues.

Paul
 

jagsiva

Active member
It's also one of the huge limitations, i.e. the shutter. You only have set speed increments, in full stops, 1", 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/15, 1/30 etc. Many times, I have felt that I could have benefited with a 1/3 or even 1/2 step increment that the focals give. This may not be as critical with CMOS as you have a bit more range per shot.

The is a huge strength of the FPS and Alpa and I had so hoped that Arca's FS system would be a similar setup. However it came in a huge cost IMO and really has yet to ship. It's also dependent on 2 different external electronic controllers, both of them have yet to be proven in the field. The FPS has a much more traditional camera feel to it. What broke my back on the Arca FS was the need to change out all the first tubes, @500.00 per tube. 8K total for my system. it's still on my long list, but I need to see it, shoot with it and evaluate it, especially the wifi controller and the other modular piece, both of which take a cell phone battery (which I hope is easy to find).

The FPS is simplicity in the making. The only thing I don't understand about it still:

1. How wide a lens can be used on it and still allow movements. I would hope that I could use the 28mm and 35mm, and 40mm and still get full 15mm of movements.
2. Shutter vibration issues, as some have complained about this in posts, and others show no problems.

The other issue about Copals, is accuracy, which they don't have.

1/30 on many of mine records at 1/45 (and it's 1/45 as I can tweak the shutter and eventually get 1/30). None of them give me 1/250, instead I tend to get 1/180 or 1/350. They tend to be more accurate in the 1 second, to 1/15 range.

This may not bother most, but it's something I would prefer not to have to mess with and the FPS or Arca FS will allow more precision. Still don't know if the Arca FS is going to generate any vibration issues.

Paul
Paul, for the Copal issues you discuss, is the eShutter not a more appropriate solution than the FP shutter? You now have two options with Rollei and Arca.

I agree with you on the Arca FP shutter - too many bits and not particularly interested in getting all my lenses retrofitted. I stopped using the eModule just so I can avoid carrying another piece and another battery to charge.
 

Shashin

Well-known member
Yeah this is a good way to keep a thread clean without starting a flame.

I am also a thief stealing figures and data from dxomark, sensorgen and Bill Claff's websites. Feel free to judge my credibility.

Yes I shared some pictures posted by others at 500px where they wanted their pictures to be shared. Do I make money on their pictures? (by trying to promote and sell Sony sensors?) I take it that you are going to sue me by collecting evidence. Go ahead.
This is a great opportunity to discuss copyright. First, data cannot be copyrighted, only a particular expression of data. Second, whether you make money from something does not actually define if you have violated someone's copyright.

Yes, there is fair use under copyright. However, there is nothing preventing you from simply giving a link to that material. Since you don't have a clear understanding of copyright law, nor how it changes internationally, the easiest why to give information would be with links.

You are also in a community of creative people, some of which produce work to try to make a living. Copyright law are one of the few laws that protect their control over their work, their source of income. Showing a little respect to that goes a long way. While the internet has been a great boon for individuals to share work, it has also been a great boon for people to exploit those people.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Paul, for the Copal issues you discuss, is the eShutter not a more appropriate solution than the FP shutter? You now have two options with Rollei and Arca.

I agree with you on the Arca FP shutter - too many bits and not particularly interested in getting all my lenses retrofitted. I stopped using the eModule just so I can avoid carrying another piece and another battery to charge.
It might be and you bring up a great point. It's a big shutter however, and still needs the Arcs electronics (which need to be proven in the field).

I have though about having my 28 Rodie converted to the shutter later this year, but need to get some more feedback on it. I believe it goes to 1/1000 of a second? and if so that is plenty for me. Even an accurate 1/500 would be enough for most stuff.

I was sure how the conversion would work either, as most times a full shutter replacement needs to go back to the lens company to allow for a reclamation process.

But it's a good idea for the future once they start to ship and have had some in use.

I would love to be a beta test for either solution, FS or the LS for any of my glass.

Paul
 

jagsiva

Active member
Maybe a good reason attend the CI Arca worshop with Rod K. I bet he'd have most of this stuff there.

I think my dealer is expecting to have demos of most of the new shutters sometime in March. I'm sure I'll play with it just out of curiosity.

On Copals, as finicky as they are, one thing I have always appreciated is my ability tinker and get them working again when something did go wrong. Also, you can swap one out (being careful of all lens shims of course) with another lens if you had to. Again, keeps it simple for me.
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
I have had good luck with Precision Camera works, in IL US. They do great work, and when they close down it will be a big hit.

They can rework a copal to get a much better accurate series of shutter speeds. I need to send in my 28 rode, but just don't want to risk it getting damaged or stolen.

Paul
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
Back to Don's original post. BTW Don, I love the picture as that really nets it out.
:D

To me the tech camera is only an enabler, as I just don't see them as a camera, i.e. no shutter, or aperture or really anything else. (not true with an FPS).

Reason to move:
As a landscape only shooter, I realized that I was not pleased with the current Mamiya Phase One wides, 28mm, 35mm, and 45mm. The 55mm was excellent but has a very very shallow DOF. I also prefer movements, and knew that the Cambo had some huge movements, and offered tilt and swing albeit an extra added to the lens.

Fears of moving:
Focus, it's just that simple. I just did know how I would be able to get critical focus since none of the backs had Live View and at the time I had a P45+ which had a worthless LCD.
Support, I did not know anything about this gear and knew it would have a huge learning curve.

Camera:
I started with Cambo and loved it, I wanted a WRS. 20mm of shift and rise and fall. I did not like the way the back was mounted on the Cambo, as it seemed to take both hands, but I figured I could get around it with time.
Then I watched a video on how Arca did things and felt it made more sense and I liked the fact that I could have tilt on any lens that the rm3di could mount. But not swing at the same time.
I love Alpa, but was never able to get much from any dealer at the time, help, support, price, whatever. I also did not like the fact that the Alpa only offered rise/fall tilt/shift with the Max (this may have changed now) without rotating the camera and the Max was just a bit too much for my budget. NOTE, the FPS was not around and CMOS 50MP backs were not around at the time, if they were things might have been different.
I went with the rm3di, after a quick call with another photographer from North Carolina, I wish I could remember his name. He explained the Arca cards for focus guidelines and how easy it was to figure out hyperfocal ranges for each lens.
I also liked the way Arca put the focus helical outside of the lens, as it IMO gives you more room and a lot more close adjustment capability. This is a great asset for wides and and a hinderance on telephoto as the number of turns of the helical become pretty extreme on 90mm and on up.
I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND why Arca can't make a wood grid, and give the camera a bit more personality. I also would love to have a left hand grip available, since I don't plan on moving to the module cloud. They should also included the grip extension a mandatory part of the camera as anyone with big hands, can't get a good grip on the handle as it ships.

Lenses:
Started with the 35XL, love it, great for sunsets/sunrises as it's not as flare prone as the Rodies. Small tight package, no weight fits in a shirt pocket. Limitations are shifts to only about 8mm due to color cast.
The 43XL was next, but it was not that great past 12mm on the 160 and 10mm on the 180 for shifts same reasons as the 35XL, I sold it and upgraded to a 40 Rodie
40 Rodie is a great lens, first wide that doesn't need a CF (but I still carry one for it for low light work as it does help). Will shift to 18mm, but at 15mm you hit the STUPID IC indicator which creates a hard vignette. I will never understand that, let me make the decision where the image quality falls off. Just a great all round lens and it goes everywhere.
28mm Rodie, wonderful lens, just extremely limited to the 70mm IC. It would actually shift to 10mm maybe 12mm if not for the IC indicator. But it's an amazing lens and is very sharp with a wonderful hyperfocal range.
60mmXL, another wonder lens, and is the shifting king. 120mm IC and will easily make 25mm most times on my 260 unless I have just pure blue sky. I know that 40mm and 60mm are very close but the Rodie 70mm won't go anywhere as far on shifts due to the STUPID IC indicator.

If I only was working with selective focus work, I would have long ago been forced to take the financial loss to get to the 250 so I could use LiveView. I have found that Live view on the 260 works OK with a varo ND thanks to the work Wayne Fox did, but that still takes a lot of battery and does tend to heat up the back (at least in Arkansas in the summer).

Ton, I mean ton of post work, as the LCC's never fully correct the color cast on my 40mm with a blue sky. But C1's layers help out a lot here. I hate LCC's and the need for them and sure can't figure out why Rod or Sch can't make lens that would not need to be so close and still be retrofocus or whatever. But I am sure they don't make that many of these lenses anyway.

Would I go back to the DF+? I don't know, as having movement and tilt really make for some wonderful images for me.

Workflow, yes it's much slower, I get less overall shots, but the shots I get, I tend of have more keepers.

Paul
 
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