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Thread: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

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    Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I'm sure this topic has been hammered out quite a lot.
    I have myself thought seriously on this, trawled the forums and pulled hair out.
    Maybe it's me, but I'm just annoyed that a software product that was so cleverly made by a company that was hugely in profit already, would now want to become greedy and start a subscription service (a costly one at that) to maintain "cashflow".
    No, I don't believe that this method prevents piracy. Anyone with an ability to read and use google search can easily find keygens, hacks, cracks and such-like even now, even with CC.
    Being an artist, being moral and ethical and for something like this, I am not willing to break the rules.
    Adobe has likely already realised that this subscription method does not prevent piracy, but the inherent company red-tape and self-justification will prevent a roll-back anytime soon. Maybe not. Your opinions may vary and I would be interested to read those.
    In any case, my question is quite specific: For the work that we do, layers, luminosity masks, cmyk print profiles, etc etc, does Photoshop CS6 / CC maintain its absolute indispensability? But of course I use C1pro8, but it has its limitations.

    Have any users here switched over to any other programs that could do the same as photoshop (or better) ?
    Thanks in advance.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I use a combination of Capture One & Photoshop CC2014. I'm slowly beginning to do the brunt of the work (at least initially) in C1 however I find I still use PS. I also have the Nik software installed so that's another reason I continue to use and like PS. I've been using PS since vr 2 or 3 so I'm much more comfortable with it than C1.

    As far as the whole cloud subscription issue goes, I'm on my second year without any issues which include various computers and traveling.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    An older version of PS is all I need. For me the last upgrade I made was CS5 and that is sufficient; I don't intend to upgrade PS for a long time. That said, you could import CI Tiff files into LR and also use your favorite plugins there (Nik, Topaz, etc.).
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I love the subscription service. For 11.00 a month a can run the latest code from Adobe on both macs and PC's. The cost is way less then paying the 550 or so I would be paying every year and not be limited to running the software on only 2 machines.

    I wish c1 would go that route.

    As for workflow I use C1, LR , Premier Peo and CC In my daily work.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Only you can say what is indispensable for you. But I really donít understand the fervent opposition to subscriptions; I am a pensioner and can readily afford $2.28AU a week to rent CS6 (my OSX version doesnít support CC) and LR4 (even though I donít like it or use it!). And the subscription is tax-deductible for those who make any money from photography. I consider it a bargain, having paid for a number of upgrades since v3.

    I subscribe because there are some things that Pixelmator cannot do, or do as well as PS; I much prefer Pixelmator as it is lean, fast and very Mac-like, whereas PS is now a cross-platformĖcompromised and bloated mess. I remember when it shipped on a floppy disk!

    But my main axe for photography remains Capture Oneóit gets me most of the way there, with PS and Pixelmator for retouching, distortion control and final scaling.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I love the subscription service. For 11.00 a month a can run the latest code from Adobe on both macs and PC's. The cost is way less then paying the 550 or so I would be paying every year and not be limited to running the software on only 2 machines.

    I wish c1 would go that route.
    Paul
    You can subscribe to C1 these days, but I don’t know about the cross-platform situation.

    ADDED:
    I worked out sometime ago that the cost of subscription for C1 was about the same as I had paid for upgrades—I started with C1v5 when there was a very good promotion having a go at LR. Need to update my OS from 10.6.8 before I can upgrade to C1v8.
    Last edited by mediumcool; 28th February 2015 at 18:14. Reason: added text

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Adobe's only concern is increasing shareholder value..nothing more.
    I use CS6 and will just stay with that. No interest in renting.
    Some of the additions from my CS4 to CS6 jump were nice, but I don't see much more benefit on the continued updates with CC.
    My files are from scanned LF film which start at 1.3 - 6 GB files before layers, ex. I am not aware any software other then Photoshop on the market that can handle large files.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GregMO View Post
    Adobe's only concern is increasing shareholder value..nothing more.
    Adobe does have concerns about supplying products and services that people, businesses and governments will want to use and pay for, so thatís not, um, correct.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregMO View Post
    I use CS6 and will just stay with that. No interest in renting.
    Good for you; I use CS6 too.

    Quote Originally Posted by GregMO View Post
    Some of the additions from my CS4 to CS6 jump were nice, but I don't see much more benefit on the continued updates with CC.
    I am not clairvoyant, so Ö

    Quote Originally Posted by GregMO View Post
    My files are from scanned LF film which start at 1.3 - 6 GB files before layers, ex. I am not aware any software other then Photoshop on the market that can handle large files.
    As long as you have a computer, OS and application software that can adequately handle the work, youíre sitting on velvet. Of course, Adobe has lost you as a customer. One justification for the subscription model is that it evens out cash-flow for the vendoróAdobeís revenue has slumped since its peak a few years back, but it is increasing as the new model gets taken up.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    When I consider what my gear cost in the first place the incremental subscription cost for PS CC 2014 etc is inconsequential. I don't really understand the reluctance to use the best tools when considering the overall workflow and expenses we already pay for. Ok, I get that people are averse to subscriptions generally but in the enterprise commercial software world (which pays my salary), software comes with mandatory maintenance for ongoing support and upgrades.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 28th February 2015 at 19:22.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I have the monthly 11$ subscription and as long as they offer it, I think it is good value. I would easily have paid this amount for a new upgrade. Of course, the 50$ a month thing is a different story.

    Back to your question, I do as much as I can in C1. Version 8 is getting there in terms of local adjustments. I also find working on the RAW file gives me better results.

    I use C1 mostly if I need to use Nik or some other plugin, for stitching and for printing. I can do all these with pretty much in LR if I want to.

    Longer-term, I'd like C1 to offer a capability to apply LCC and stitch a RAW file and keep it in one file or a "file package" as they do today, except they currently do not support stitching across multiple files. If printing was improved along with this, I would have no need for PS.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    Adobe does have concerns about supplying products and services that people, businesses and governments will want to use and pay for, so thatís not, um, correct.



    Good for you; I use CS6 too.



    I am not clairvoyant, so Ö



    As long as you have a computer, OS and application software that can adequately handle the work, youíre sitting on velvet. Of course, Adobe has lost you as a customer. One justification for the subscription model is that it evens out cash-flow for the vendoróAdobeís revenue has slumped since its peak a few years back, but it is increasing as the new model gets taken up.

    From CS4 to CS6, the spot healing tool is much improved & the distortion correction tools do a better job of holding pixel quality.
    95% of my needs are done with masks & adjustment layers which have remained pretty much the same.
    The Content Aware Fill feature with CS6 has limited use IMO and complex object removal & re-building of a scene is best done manually.
    Tony Kuyper has a nice set of Luminosity Mask actions with a full panel for CS6, but cant fully be loaded in CS4.
    For me, I dont see much benefit going forward with CC & like you said, as long as the computer, OS & software program can handle the file load..I'm set.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    My dislike for the Adobe model is they are effectively making me lease my work from them. In order to get into the house I built, I have to pay rent on the keys.
    Will

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    When I consider what my gear cost in the first place the incremental subscription cost for PS CC 2014 etc is inconsequential. I don't really understand the reluctance to use the best tools when considering the overall workflow and expenses we already pay for. Ok, I get that people are averse to subscriptions generally but in the enterprise commercial software world (which pays my salary), software comes with mandatory maintenance for ongoing support and upgrades.
    I think the issue is that not everyone can justify continual updates on photoshop. While the pricing structure may be equivalent to the traditional model if one upgrades every time an update is issued, this is not true for the more typical user, who may have skipped a couple of versions in between, and who could save money by skipping a few versions (i.e. perhaps from CS to CS4 to CS6).

    In effect, what adobe is doing is *forcing* all their customers to become the same as the first case Ė where everyone is forced to continually pay for incremental improvements rather than having the choice to upgrade or hold off. That's what irritates most.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I love the subscription service. For 11.00 a month a can run the latest code from Adobe on both macs and PC's. The cost is way less then paying the 550 or so I would be paying every year and not be limited to running the software on only 2 machines.

    Paul
    Agreed. When you look at cloud services in general and what you get with the Adobe Photographers pack (PS, LR, dropbox like storage space, sync between computers, plus a few other perks) itís a steal. I pay $13 a month just to play a stupid computer game that I probably need counseling for to try and overcome the addiction, my rationalization is Iím doing that instead of watching tv like many others. I pay $6 a month for Neat Cloud, which is amazing and something I cannot live without. So $10 a month to Adobe for all I get and avoiding big upgrade payments every year or so ... no problem. I donít begrudge adobe at all for trying to ensure they are economically viable.

    I use C1, LR, and PS. Nearly every single image of mine ends up making a trip to Photoshop. So to answer the question, for me yes. If I had to choose between the 3 and could only use 1 (thankfully I donít have to) it would be using Bridge/PS/ACR.

    But it could be a few more features and improvements in LR (such as better sharpening and better healing) might change things, but IĒm not sure I could say the same about C1. I struggle with itís workflow, seems cumbersome and complicated, and I much prefer LRís approach to local adjustments. I use C1 some of the time because I can milk more quality out of my IQ180 files, but quite often LR handles the job just fine.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    If there is a post program that reaches as deep as PS does, I'm not aware of it.

    A commercial retoucher once told me that you can get the basics of PS down in a reasonable amount of time, the rest will take a lifetime to fully understand, if at all. I now believe he was right.

    The cumulative time I've spent mastering what I need from PS is part of its value. As I progressed, I never really ran out of program to keep pace. Just recently a retoucher showed me a new way to do something that would have saved me a zillion hours in past.

    I am a LR user, so the subscription that gets me LR and PS for $11 a month seems a bargain. I already own PS-6 as a back-up if I can't afford that $11 some day in future ... but if that ever happened, I'd have bigger problems than a $11 subscription.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    My dislike for the Adobe model is they are effectively making me lease my work from them. In order to get into the house I built, I have to pay rent on the keys.
    I suppose you could apply that thinking to a lot of things.

    We may own a TV, computer, phone, but we "lease" it's use from the power company, cell company and cable company.

    Heck, even if you own your own car, you are "leasing" it's use from the Oil companies.

    - Marc

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I refuse to pay the subscription charges to Adobe but not because I'm apposed to subscription services. Can someone please tell me apart from the background save feature in CS6 has Adobe released any must have new tools, performance enhancements or quality improvements since my last payed upgrade (or probably since CS3) that make CC a must have upgrade?

    I'm not sure of the compulsive need to have the latest Adobe "code" on my machine, and pay monthly for it when it offers no added benefit over CS6 (which still receives camera updates)?

    So please this is a genuine question, what does paying a monthly fee for CC give me over CS6 that is making all the posters in this topic so bemused why us none payers haven't signed up already???
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Subscription is the future regardless of what we think about it. Adobe is early out because they have a strong position, and their software is so mature they can't just add more and more features, but more will follow. If I was a pro I would pay and use PS. As an enthusiast photographer with low volume work I use alternative tools though. Photoline instead of Photoshop and Rawtherapee instead of Lightroom or Capture One, and various small specialised tools. I can get high end results just as with the standard tools, but it takes a bit more work I guess.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I refuse to pay the subscription charges to Adobe but not because I'm apposed to subscription services. Can someone please tell me apart from the background save feature in CS6 has Adobe released any must have new tools, performance enhancements or quality improvements since my last payed upgrade (or probably since CS3) that make CC a must have upgrade?

    I'm not sure of the compulsive need to have the latest Adobe "code" on my machine, and pay monthly for it when it offers no added benefit over CS6 (which still receives camera updates)?

    So please this is a genuine question, what does paying a monthly fee for CC give me over CS6 that is making all the posters in this topic so bemused why us none payers haven't signed up already???
    I donít care if anyone signs up. Itís more about those that donít sign up seem to think Adobe is ripping people off and it violates some ethical principle of doing business so they are making sure everyone knows why they donít sign up. simple fact is itís a really good deal.

    If you are using LR and PS, then you pay $5 a month each to use them, and there is a lot more to the CC cloud than just using those. Sure maybe you donít need them, but how much cheaper could it be?

    As far as CS6 vs CC there are several features, but to me the most important is the ability to use ACR as a filter, and if I do it on a smart object it becomes editable. Interface elements are vastly improved (no more little tiny dialog boxes for most things), healing and and patch tool are improved and better, smart sharpening added some functionality and is improved. Speed wise I canít really say because itís been so long since I used CS 6, but CC 2014 seems snappier than the original PS CC. There are a ton of other features, but as photographers we only tend to use a fraction of what it offers so upgrades may not provide much usefulness.

    But adobe does seem to be enhancing the product constantly. Hereís a list of things added to PS CC since it was released and at the bottom a list comparing features with older versions of PS.

    things move ahead but certainly if what someone is using is getting the job done and they want to stay there fine. I donít think CS6 ACR will support all new cameras forever, at some point adobe will cut it off. Not to force people to do anything but hard to finance support of something that doesnít offer any revenue to offset the expense of providing that support. And some day processor and OS advancements will create hardware that will probably not run CS 6. Nothing new with that, Iíve tossed tons of old software that wonít run on anything anymore.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I just don't get it. Bitching and moaning about $11/month when that's less than a glass of wine in a bar, probably way less than people spend on coffee a week (I'm being charitable - my coffee friends do more than that a day), the price of a single lunch, or ... Well you get the point. In return you get ongoing support of the ultimate version of PS/LR and let's face it you probably already have that perpetual license for CS5/6 or earlier anyway so it's not like you'll never be able to open your files.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I refuse to pay the subscription charges to Adobe but not because I'm apposed to subscription services. Can someone please tell me apart from the background save feature in CS6 has Adobe released any must have new tools, performance enhancements or quality improvements since my last payed upgrade (or probably since CS3) that make CC a must have upgrade?

    I'm not sure of the compulsive need to have the latest Adobe "code" on my machine, and pay monthly for it when it offers no added benefit over CS6 (which still receives camera updates)?

    So please this is a genuine question, what does paying a monthly fee for CC give me over CS6 that is making all the posters in this topic so bemused why us none payers haven't signed up already???
    Personally, I think this is a legitimate question ... but the answer depends on how current one wishes to be with any refinements without bothering to track each update or wait for a new release to get those refinements ... as opposed to not feeling a need for every little tweak, or even every new release.

    I simply went back and reviewed my financial outlay for PS and LR over a few years and found the subscription plan to work for me, where I could see it being different for others.

    The unknowns are how long PS6 will be supported ... and how long Adobe will keep the CC subscription at a reasonable cost per month.

    - Marc

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    Senior Member Ed Hurst's Avatar
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I think there is a tendency to conflate whether the price of the subscription (as it currently stands) represents good value (based on our own personal criteria) and whether the compulsory subscription model is something that people like. To me, the former is true (I find it reasonable value for what I do) and the latter is not (I don't like being forced to pay a subscription). I don't think it's morally wrong or a rip off - after all, it's a free market and no one is forcing me to use their products; they are free to charge as they wish, and I am free not to buy it. However, there is something about the feeling of buying something outright and feeling "that is now mine, outright" versus feeling that buying something involves permanently having to pay money to a corporation. Certainly an emotional response and not totally logical, since in the end I pay the same (or perhaps less). But I do understand why it feels wrong. Because if you buy something outright, you are then free to do what you want with the product, including using it, without ever having to do anything in particular.

    So I am in the position of understanding why people object - on an emotional level - whilst deciding, in the end, that it doesn't matter much logically and paying up!
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I just don't get it. Bitching and moaning about $11/month
    I have no issue with the monthly cost and do think it is good value if it actually had any great benefit over CS6. I looked at the list of improvements in CC and apart from not knowing what the camera RAW as filter means everything else looked very minor. I don't see how "workflow time-savers", "camera shake reduction", "font search" and "inproved guides" can be classed as upgrades? When Camera RAW no longer gets updates then it might be time to upgrade but still struggleing to see any reason yet? Possibly if I used Lightroom it would make more sence but being a C1 user I have no idea of the update history of that software.

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    When I first started out I was using a illegal version of Photoshop. Then I realised that It was going to cost me much less than a camera lens so I bought CS4 in full, upgraded to CS5, then CS6.

    I've no problem paying a subscription charge. It allows me to always have the latest version and updates and it's cheaper than upgrading every year. When you think about it, those who complain about paying a sub are often the ones who want a perpetual license and don't intend to upgrade anyway.
    Last edited by Chris Giles; 3rd March 2015 at 05:14.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Hi,

    I am much more a Lightroom user than a Photoshop user, so I considered looking for cheaper alternative to Photoshop. With the present pricing Lightroom and Photoshop combined I feel that the package is attractive.

    I do most of my work in Lightroom, that lets me work with small files. But, sometimes I need to do things Photoshop is good at. The present cost is not much higher than what I would pay for just Lightroom updates in the long run.

    Another point is that many Photoshop users didn't use "legit" version, the present scheme lovers the barriers of entry.

    Jeff Schewe, over at LuLa says that Thomas Knoll acted a lot to lower prices for Photoshop for photographers, and that is a very good thing that I may feel he deserves some applause for.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Hurst View Post
    I think there is a tendency to conflate whether the price of the subscription (as it currently stands) represents good value (based on our own personal criteria) and whether the compulsory subscription model is something that people like. To me, the former is true (I find it reasonable value for what I do) and the latter is not (I don't like being forced to pay a subscription). I don't think it's morally wrong or a rip off - after all, it's a free market and no one is forcing me to use their products; they are free to charge as they wish, and I am free not to buy it. However, there is something about the feeling of buying something outright and feeling "that is now mine, outright" versus feeling that buying something involves permanently having to pay money to a corporation. Certainly an emotional response and not totally logical, since in the end I pay the same (or perhaps less). But I do understand why it feels wrong. Because if you buy something outright, you are then free to do what you want with the product, including using it, without ever having to do anything in particular.

    So I am in the position of understanding why people object - on an emotional level - whilst deciding, in the end, that it doesn't matter much logically and paying up!

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    The title of this thread reads 'Medium Format Use: Is Photoshop Indispensible?".

    Given that it is for Medium Format users, I don't see the problem unless it is one of 'principle'. When we all have spent over $25K (in many instances over $50K) on camera equipment, what is $11 per month?


    I've been a photoshop user since PS6 in the 90s. Upgrades usually appeared every 18-24 months and cost around $150-200 (which in 2001 was a lot of money). A regular subscription now costs around the same overall.

    As far as need for processing is concerned, I think it is absolutely indispensable. Some degree of post is required for every image, even if it is just cropping and dust spotting. Today, LR and C1 can transform an image, pulling out shadow detail like you wouldn't believe it.

    Is there anything else that can do it? sure, but nothing else has as wide a user base, as robust an interface or as powerful a set of features. For those big into graphic design and video, there is a whole host of other programs in the Adobe stable that work seamlessly with Photoshop.

    For me it's a no-brainer.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Exactly. One MF lens would buy you way more than TEN years of use of the latest PS versions.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I suppose you could apply that thinking to a lot of things.

    We may own a TV, computer, phone, but we "lease" it's use from the power company, cell company and cable company.

    Heck, even if you own your own car, you are "leasing" it's use from the Oil companies.

    - Marc
    But I don't have to buy my electricity or oil from a single company. I could even install equipment to generate my own electricity.

    But this is a bit different. Perhaps it would be clearer this way. If you paint a picture, how would you feel sending a check to the paint manufacturer every month to view the painting?

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Exactly. One MF lens would buy you way more than TEN years of use of the latest PS versions.
    Right now...

    ...and I don't mean the prices of optics might fall.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    My situation might be a little different. I don't just use Photoshop, but InDesign and Illustrator. I am rather ambivalent about the whole thing. In some ways it takes away the hit of the upfront cost of paying for the package, but the idea that some company can pull the pug on your creative work anytime it wants is a bit too Big Brother. I can design a book or an illustration, but I have to keep funding Adobe to get to the design?

    Whether you need Photoshop is more personal. I use a lot of features and some seem rather unfeature like--color management, for example. I am sure photographers could get by without Photoshop, but in my work there is no substitute.
    Will

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    SO,

    In general, there's agreement that there is no viable software alternative to what can be done in photoshop. In my opinion, this makes it an even more difficult situation.
    $11 a month, a very good deal, yes. A few things that might further this discussion:

    1. CS6 is definitely good enough for me for now. But they have stopped selling it for newcomers who don't have it.

    2. A subscription for use is more, lets say "ethical" for content that changes all the time. eg. a magazine, a newspaper, a video rental. Here, people have to keep paying to use the same thing (almost, except for perhaps a few substantial updates here and there ).

    3. This is akin to artists charging a subscription to have their painting put to use (as Will pointed out).

    4. Ownership is not established. For eg, if someone is subscribing to 'my copy', how would Adobe feel if someone sublet the license ? We share and resell books and music and gear after all, so why not software ?

    5. Is there a guarantee that $11 will not become $30 a month ? No. ( At the same time, it might even reduce further ).

    6. If someone uses photoshop just once in a while, should the subscription price reflect that ? (I for eg. will get 10 keepers a year as an enthusiast photographer ). I hardly put in 30 hrs of photoshop work in a year. For me, $132 for 30 hrs a year is something to consider alternatives for. The truth is that CS6 is so good, that unless I change my gear and desktop ( 5-7 yrs ) I have no need for the subscription at all. Does adobe care about how that affects them? Au contraire, if they came up with another CC worth $500 to be bought outright in 3 yrs, I would actually consider 'upgrading".

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    ... If you paint a picture, how would you feel sending a check to the paint manufacturer every month to view the painting?
    I think the analogy is a little askew: you are 'renting' the tools from Adobe, not the end product.

    If you make a print, or save a .tiff file, then you don't really need Adobe PS again. You can view the print, and probably view and/or print the .tiff file, even if Adobe goes out of business and CC is gone.

    If you want to do some more work on the picture, i.e. if you want to make some changes to the picture that you painted, with rented brushes and paints, then yes, you need (to rent) the same (or newer and improved) brushes and paints in order to do some new work on the old painting. But that is a different issue from viewing the original painting/picture.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Well I think the painting analogy doesn't really work because it's more akin to a final output flattened jpg or TIFF file. You're one & done once it's produced.

    However, with a perpetual PS outfit your paints never truly dry.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Have you looked at the OnOne suite??

    They are pretty nice, relatively easy to use and the results are quite good. I have been using it quite a bit lately in an attempt to understand it better. That and the Niksoft suite of adjustment programs. I'm not ready to dump PS just yet but they are pretty damn nice.

    I traditionally used Photoshop for 10-20% of my post processing. Lightroom does most of the heavy lifting and then shoot into other programs for things that I can't do there, or are done better elsewhere. Photoshop is a fantastic program, and I would use it to maybe 1/10th of its potential. I just don't need most of the fancy stuff it can do. I did subscribe to the cloud as it was cheaper than updating my CS4 to CS6. However if I can get results from OnOne then I may change over to them.

    Then again for $10 a month with PS and LR it's pretty good value.
    Stop chasing gear, start chasing photos instead.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dogs857 View Post
    Have you looked at the OnOne suite??

    They are pretty nice, relatively easy to use and the results are quite good. I have been using it quite a bit lately in an attempt to understand it better. That and the Niksoft suite of adjustment programs. I'm not ready to dump PS just yet but they are pretty damn nice.

    I traditionally used Photoshop for 10-20% of my post processing. Lightroom does most of the heavy lifting and then shoot into other programs for things that I can't do there, or are done better elsewhere. Photoshop is a fantastic program, and I would use it to maybe 1/10th of its potential. I just don't need most of the fancy stuff it can do. I did subscribe to the cloud as it was cheaper than updating my CS4 to CS6. However if I can get results from OnOne then I may change over to them.

    Then again for $10 a month with PS and LR it's pretty good value.
    I've been an OnOne user for a while and have also used the Nik suite extensively. Lately I've been trying the excellent MacPhun package (never been a big fan of Topaz except the masking piece). Nik cannot do raw conversion and I doubt OnOne's raw conversion is good enough (in fact they recommend first converting them to tif or other formats). The package though is really good, better than any other I've come across.

    My biggest problem with OnOne is that it is too slow. Even on my MacPro 2013 with two graphic cards, 64G RAM, it is incredibly slow especially when the screen is a big 30" monitor. OTOH, MacPhun is super fast as is Photoshop. I've written to OnOne support and they admit their program is not optimized for speed.

    There is really no getting away from LR or Photoshop.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    "Is Photoshop Indispensible?"

    For Professionals: Yes, you must have it, use it, and practice

    For anyone else, I can't say, but if I were an advanced amateur or just an enthusiast, The first thing on my "want" list (ahead of any camera, lens, or gadget) would be a computer and Photoshop.

    The question is like asking a film photography enthusiast or pro back in the 70's: "Is processing your film indispensable? Is a darkroom indispensable?"

    That having been said, it is odd that there is virtually no competitive product to switch to. I can't think of any other software that so clearly dominates its market as Adobe Photoshop. I remember som promising alternatives back in the early 90's but they died rather quickly and not much has come out since. Conspiracy theories anyone?
    Last edited by Egor; 4th March 2015 at 07:25.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    The way I see it, if I have dropped the kind of cash that I did to reach the level of perfection I desire from my gear, then the images I deem keepers should also be worked to perfection, blowing off every tiny bit of dust that doesn't make the image.

    Thoughts like "but that's what it was actually like!" can ruin photographs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    That having been said, it is odd that there is virtually no competitive product to switch to. I can't think of any other software that so clearly dominates its market as Adobe Photoshop. I remember som promising alternatives back in the early 90's but they died rather quickly and not much has come out since. Conspiracy theories anyone?
    For digital artists there are still a few alternatives, but for photography I'm not entirely sure how anything else would work. What differentiating features could they possibly offer? How much more efficient would the workflow be? What would you do about cross-application integration?

    Photoshop already has a very efficient interface, more features than most people ever use, is highly expandable with plugins for those few features it does not have, and it's fully integrated into a suite of products where I can drag and drop stuff between programs and I know what I'm doing without having to learn a new interface since they all look the same.

    A monopoly is only a bad situation to be in if the only thing you get out of it is arrogance on the side of the developer, but Adobe keeps developing features and innovates in directions people didn't even know they needed. Content-aware technology? can't live without that anymore! but before it was introduced I didn't know if it was even possible and would have been happily cloning and stamping away till this day.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    I think the analogy is a little askew: you are 'renting' the tools from Adobe, not the end product.

    If you make a print, or save a .tiff file, then you don't really need Adobe PS again. You can view the print, and probably view and/or print the .tiff file, even if Adobe goes out of business and CC is gone.

    If you want to do some more work on the picture, i.e. if you want to make some changes to the picture that you painted, with rented brushes and paints, then yes, you need (to rent) the same (or newer and improved) brushes and paints in order to do some new work on the old painting. But that is a different issue from viewing the original painting/picture.
    But my end product is the Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign files. So you would be OK in a camera company charging a subscription to the camera's raw processor? I mean, once you have processed the images, you don't need access to the original file. As long as you continue to pay, you can keep using the raw files, including the xml file.

    If Adobe offered a choice, that would be one thing. But they are telling me I have to rent my work from them. They are saying what I create is not really mine. Perhaps it is because I make books. But I make the books, not Adobe. I have yet to see Adobe suggest that their files are just an intermediate file format to an actual product.

    Don't get me wrong, even in book production there is some benefit to subscription. It solves a lot of legacy issues. But it does being up the problem of who actually owns the work, the creator of the work or the tool maker? Lets just hope Adobe never goes bankrupt.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I entered a subscription to the cloud May 2013 for an introductory price of less than $20 per month for 12-months then last year they screwed up and quoted the same price for the second year. I received an email stating they were honoring that price so in the end I've been paying 1/2 what I should have if they hadn't stepped up and honored their mistake.

    A couple months ago I signed in and added another email address to my profile. The same time I deactivated the laptop to use CC on the SP3 for a quick trip I went on where I needed to pack ultra light. Returning home I deactivated the SP3 and reactivated the laptop however never really checking that I had done everything correctly.

    Turns out I screwed myself. First with the email change; Adobe thought I had opened a new account and my CC desktop would only offer ne "trial" and not "install". Secondary since I had deleted everything on the SP3 (to save space) without properly deactivating Adobe thought I had reached my max of 2-computers.

    I've been a little too busy to concern myself since my main studio computer continued to play and properly update all the needed programs. Monday I contacted Adobe on their chat. 3 1/2 hrs later I was back up and running on both the studio and laptop having fixed the email error sign-in I had caused and the screw up on activating/deactivating. The person I chatted with was highly professional and patient staying on the line as we fixed each problem and reloaded CC desktop onto my laptop. A lot of the time spent on the chat was me properly describing what I had done and then the slow process of downloading the software.

    I choose the full Creative Cloud to give me access to more than just Photoshop and Premiere Pro, Acrobat are just 2-programs that are well worth the price of admission. I can also visit and load another program use it then 6-months later delete if after I no longer have a need. I keep returning to LR thinking that I'll eventually learn to like it however it always ends up deleted.

    The one smart thing I've done is brought anther seat for C1-Pro to have on the SP3 giving me full access on all 3-of my computers without the need of any worry. In the end at least for me I see this as a price of doing business and it's a write-off.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But my end product is the Photoshop, Illustrator, and InDesign files. So you would be OK in a camera company charging a subscription to the camera's raw processor? I mean, once you have processed the images, you don't need access to the original file. As long as you continue to pay, you can keep using the raw files, including the xml file.

    If Adobe offered a choice, that would be one thing. But they are telling me I have to rent my work from them. They are saying what I create is not really mine. Perhaps it is because I make books. But I make the books, not Adobe. I have yet to see Adobe suggest that their files are just an intermediate file format to an actual product.

    Don't get me wrong, even in book production there is some benefit to subscription. It solves a lot of legacy issues. But it does being up the problem of who actually owns the work, the creator of the work or the tool maker? Lets just hope Adobe never goes bankrupt.
    You don't have to use any of Adobe's proprietary formats, TIFF has been around since digital scanners were invented almost 30 years ago and is openable by everything, and xml/dng are both open standards that a programer can write a program for if needed. So long as the method for decoding the data isn't kept in a state that may eventually be lost, there's nothing to really worry about, people have reverse-engineered stuff much more complicated in the past.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shashin View Post
    But I don't have to buy my electricity or oil from a single company. I could even install equipment to generate my own electricity.

    But this is a bit different. Perhaps it would be clearer this way. If you paint a picture, how would you feel sending a check to the paint manufacturer every month to view the painting?
    Might be a long ride for you unfortunately. You pay a monthly subscription to somebody to give you an IP address to reach the rest of us already, whether it is on your local loop or on a mobile device. This concept now extends to software. SW maintenance, and currency with new hardware, OS, standards etc. is an expensive proposition, and only gets more so with complexity. This is NOT including new features or improvements on existing ones. Subscriptions (or per per use) will be the norm for most sw companies going forward.

    I cannot say that Adobe went about this in the most customer friendly way, but it is an inevitable outcome.

    The painting analogy is fallacious. If your file is stored in JPG or TIFF, you can view it whenever and however you like. However, you are talking about not just viewing, when you extend this to .PSD format.

    I don't use PS too much, but extending the analogy to C1, i can say with certainty that when I take the same RAW file with C1 3.1 and C1 8.1, the later gives me much better results, and I am happy to pay P1 in the form of a subscription or upgrade for the improvement. I do the same with Adobe.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Good point on C1; I can't member the last time I had an actual disk to load...
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    Good point on C1; I can't member the last time I had an actual disk to load...
    Inevitable evolution
    I remember storing files on floppy, then Syquest, then MO, then Bernouli, then Jazz, then CD, then DVD, then hard drives and thumb drives, and now mostly cloud distribution (and I pay monthly for the privilege, btw)

    I remember a few clients who paid us to transfer from each new storage paradigm. When we got to CD I remember a few telling me that "this was it! This will be the final storage medium once and for all!" I remember telling them something to the effect of "don't count on it. Besides, its not the storage medium that matters but the machines and formats that can read it. I stopped listening after MO (Magneto Optical) anyway...I knew

    Now we use "the cloud" and pay subscription in one way or another. Is this the end of the line? Not listening!

    So I pay a monthly retainer for so many things: my software, my equipment leases, my studio leases, vehicles...etc. I don't get it. Its just a cost factor among many

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Good luck reading those Syquest, MO, Berouli, Jazz and first generation CD discs btw ... assuming of course that you kept the drives and legacy OS versions that would actually run the drivers.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Good luck reading those Syquest, MO, Berouli, Jazz and first generation CD discs btw ... assuming of course that you kept the drives and legacy OS versions that would actually run the drivers.
    Believe it or not, Graham, I did just that!
    I keep a bunch of legacy machines like old macs and PCs, and all those drives, and SCSI cards and connectors, as well as DDS tape and backup readers in a storage shed.
    An important client of mine came to me last year with a box full of Syquest 44,88, and the vaunted "200MB Syquest" cartridges. Said to me, "Our entire library of images and catalogues are on these, can you get them off and updated to a modern disc so we can use them?"
    I said "absolutely, but it will cost you $5k!" The guy looked at me like I was pulling his leg until I explained to him all that I had done over the years to keep and store and maintain that stuff, and how hard it would be to open and update each and every file (not just the bitmap image files, those are easy, but Pagemaker 5 files, Word Perfect Files, Freehand 3 files, Corel Draw files...etc ..I kept all that too! When I was done esplainin, he thought it was a fair price.
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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    What I don't understand is: If the subscription model is such a great value for consumers, and if there are a bunch of irrational emotional types who would pay the ridiculously high price of a permanent license, then why isn't it an option? It would, by these arguments, make Adobe a lot more money.

    On the other hand, if it is a much worse deal for consumers in the long run, I can see Adobe doing exactly what they're doing.

    Partial answer to my own question: Equity markets tolerate different valuations for companies with different cashflow models, and this has nothing to do with consumers and everything to do with stock price and its effect on executive compensation.

    As far as users' financial analysis, I don't think anyone is properly valuing the future odds of either price increases or corporate/server interruption. We all tend to believe in (and price accordingly) sunny days forever - until the crisis. Everyone thinks "I can just save everything to TIFFs", but when Adobe suddenly freezes you out due to technical glitch/bankruptcy/earthquake/whatever, it will suddenly seem different. Or a management shakeup puts someone in charge who thinks a 300% price increase is justified because there is no competition, or ... it's always the disaster that no one expects.

    We have all sold Adobe a basket of options, and we are valuing them at zero. This is historically a very very bad idea. Corporations love us for this.

    Oh, once I give in, I'll be giving justifications, too. We're all human.

    --Matt

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I'll hang on and use CS6 as long as possible. Photoshop and Dreamweaver.

    But a question, does anyone know how long Adobe will be issuing new camera updates or are committed to issuing new camera updates for Photoshop CS6?

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    If I sign up for the photographers subscription now (PS CC 2015 and LR5) what happens when Lightroom 6 gets released or CC 2016? I know maintenance updates are part of the CC service but do I have to pay to update to the latest program version?

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    Quote Originally Posted by MGrayson View Post

    Partial answer to my own question: Equity markets tolerate different valuations for companies with different cashflow models, and this has nothing to do with consumers and everything to do with stock price and its effect on executive compensation.

    As far as users' financial analysis, I don't think anyone is properly valuing the future odds of either price increases or corporate/server interruption. We all tend to believe in (and price accordingly) sunny days forever - until the crisis. Everyone thinks "I can just save everything to TIFFs", but when Adobe suddenly freezes you out due to technical glitch/bankruptcy/earthquake/whatever, it will suddenly seem different. Or a management shakeup puts someone in charge who thinks a 300% price increase is justified because there is no competition, or ... it's always the disaster that no one expects.

    We have all sold Adobe a basket of options, and we are valuing them at zero. This is historically a very very bad idea. Corporations love us for this.

    --Matt
    That is the big unknown question.. Abobe is a monopoly on the high end side with what they produce. They are holding the Ace in their back pocket. When they feel "enough" subscribers have jumped on board & they need to show better numbers for their quarterly earnings reports, chances are good (or better yet, certain), the subscription price will increase & continue to do so.

    For the hold outs..it's never been been about "$10/ month." It's the principal of purchasing a product for "X" and using it without the concern of the "deal" changing on them. Then making the freewill decision to pay again when they are ready.

    The choice between the two models would have been great, but Abobe didnt decide to offer us a choice.

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    Re: Medium format use: Is photoshop indispensable ?

    I think "what if" scenarios are not helpful. There are so many permutations. For instance, "What if" a solar flare emp takes out the electric grid? "What if" new net laws make isp's have to charge more than their customers are willing to pay? "What if" a camera company decides to give away its product for free and charge usage rights for every actuation of its shutter count? "what if" there is a zombie apocalypse? Will Get DPI still honor its commitment to keep its servers up??

    "What if" Adobe goes under or decides to charge more than the majority of its clients can afford to pay?
    Thats easy, the market has easy answers to that scenario and lean and hungry competitors are ready to pounce at every turn.

    None of that matters in the long run, as I said, "What if" scenarios are not helpful in day2day operation and enjoyment of the art.

    So iow, to quote my favorite Star Trek line: "Resistance is Futile, You will be assimilated"
    Don't sweat it, come to the dark side...we have cookies!
    Last edited by Egor; 5th March 2015 at 11:25.

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