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Thread: 28mm on a 180

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    Super Duper
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    28mm on a 180

    I'm doing research on how well a Schneider 28mm will perform using a Cambo WRS and IQ180 combo.

    I read Guys comparison write-up between the HR & SK that was several years ago and back then it appears the SK might not have been well suited on the 180. But things change; such as C1.

    So the question is - will a SK 28 work well on a 180 using a WRS. How much movement is there? (I'm not expecting much if any) What are the issues and are they correctable in C1. I'd also expect the CF is a must.

    If the SK is a bust I'll have to rethink the HR but I'd like to hear from those who have actual experience.

    Don
    Don Libby
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    One other thought - As good as the 32 looks I have a 40HR which is too close to the same focal length and I have no desire selling it so looking towards the 28.

    Don
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    are you kidding us? you are concerned about a measly $9 or $10,000?
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    No joke and Ken didn't put me up to this ...

    There really isn't that much of a price difference between the HR and SK 28, the reason I like the SK lens over the HR is the lack of that internal hard stop that you encounter with movements. I also believe the SK has a larger image circle.

    Again, the 32 is too close to what I already have in the 40 and I have no wish to get rid of the 40 which is something I'd want to do if I got the 32. That leaves me getting an even wider lens such as a 23 or 28 and I think the 23 might be too wide for me. So all this reasoning brings me back to the 2-28 lens and the question of whether the SK 28 will play well with a 180.
    Don Libby
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    Workshop Member Bryan Stephens's Avatar
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Don

    Guy did a full review of the two lenses here :

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/lens-acc...itar-28xl.html

    I know his tests were done on an IQ160, but it should give you some idea.

    ps.. I hated when he did it as I was very tempted to buy one.
    Bryan

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    CI did a test way back with the SK28 and IQ180 - here's the link. The post is kind of broken (originally appeared on CI's old website), but I'm sure they probably still have the RAWs kicking around. IIRC it was fine unshifted, but couldn’t be shifted much if any. But, that was then, this is now - would be interested to see how much C1 v8 can help.

    BTW the SK 28 ('Super Digitar') is a gem of a lens - hugely underrated due to limited shifting with the IQ180-era ‘full frame’ sensors (when it was released), but from what I've seen it deserves to be part of the conversation with legendary lenses like the Zeiss Biogon T* 4.5/38 (1st gen) etc.

    Enda Cavanagh has used it extensively on a Cambo (on a HB back IIRC, not sure which one).

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Bryan, thanks I read that a couple time yesterday before posting.

    And on other news -

    When in doubt call your dealer, in this case Capture Integration...

    Seems that Cambo has or will shortly discontinue offering the SK28 so that leaves me with a choice of the HR28 or if I really wanted to go wild and wide the HR23. It also appears that if anyone is using a SK28 on a 80-megapixel they're keeping quite as no one at CI had any information.

    They did however tell me both the 28 and 23 HR work well with a 80 megapixel. I'm just not a big fan of the internal stop but then again I don't expect to do any shifting with either lens.
    Last edited by Don Libby; 6th March 2015 at 10:24.
    Don Libby
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    With no shifting you will love the Rodie 28mm.

    One glorious lens. I would consider the CF. I Use it on mine.

    Paul
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    just found this on Phase Knowledge base for Phase One and Mamiya Leaf users in looking at this both the HR23 & 28 play well with the IQ180 just can't expect much/any shift.

    Now my question for me is which one do I want?
    Don Libby
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    If you want wide get the 23mm especially if you are not going to shift. It's a bit more flare prone than the 28mm.

    Paul
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Don, the 40HR with shifts can easily cover the 28mm FoV. You are right in that the 40 and 32 are quite close, but the 32HR does give you close to the FoV of the 23HR with shifts. If you're keeping the 40HR, and you like the wides, I'd go for the 23HR. It is a princess, but when the corners are nothing short of incredible.

    I find the 23/40 combo works well for me. If I had to pick only one in the trio, the 32HR any day.
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    After thinking and doing more research I'm leaning closer to the 23 since the 40 can with movements get close to a 28 and I'm looking for a lens that will produce wide files without the need of movements. I find myself in situations with fast moving light/skies that would be great in a large panorama if only there was enough time to properly move the lens and capture LCCs (though the LCC can be any time). The use of a lens that when centered would give me the single frame kickass file I want for a pano would also allow me the chance to shoot multiple frames as the sky develops. Anyway, this makes perfect sense to me.

    Now to find a good copy of the 23 and find a center filter as I sure I'll need one as well.

    Thanks for listening to me as I think this out loud today!
    Don Libby
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    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    After thinking and doing more research I'm leaning closer to the 23 since the 40 can with movements get close to a 28 and I'm looking for a lens that will produce wide files without the need of movements. I find myself in situations with fast moving light/skies that would be great in a large panorama if only there was enough time to properly move the lens and capture LCCs (though the LCC can be any time). The use of a lens that when centered would give me the single frame kickass file I want for a pano would also allow me the chance to shoot multiple frames as the sky develops. Anyway, this makes perfect sense to me.

    Now to find a good copy of the 23 and find a center filter as I sure I'll need one as well.

    Thanks for listening to me as I think this out loud today!
    I tried the 23, and it was just too wide for my taste. I traded for the 28mm and am much happier. Since the only time I use it is when I can’t shift the 40mm it seems to be about the right focal length for my taste.

    I use it with the center filter, but may have to revisit that on occasions where the dynamic range isn’t that great because it really does increase exposure times dramatically (about 2.5 stops or so it seems). Sometimes that’s OK ... but sometimes maybe not so good.
    wayne
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    No doubt when the light is low off comes the CF on the 28mm. It's a 2.5 stop difference as Wayne mentioned.

    Paul

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Hi Don,
    If you own ALPA, the 23mm would be very useful in unique situations. However, since you own Cambo, the 28mm is quit unique since it is the widest angle lens with tilt and swing capability. Thus in your current technical camera system, the 28mm in T/S mount would be extremely versatile and complementary to your other lenses and having similar functionalities (T/S) that you are so used to work with; familiar setting helps us work better. Like they say old habit dies hard. Ideally if you can own all of them you should since they are all very nice lens especially in the wide end.
    Last edited by PSon; 6th March 2015 at 17:10.
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Quote Originally Posted by PSon View Post
    Hi Don,
    ....Ideally if you can own all of them you should ...
    Ok, well I guess that's the end of this thread for Don.

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Don, I have HR 28 on Arca. You can test it during April 17th - 19th in "Don, Ken & CI in Tahoe".
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Ken, I'm shocked that you hadn't already suggested that Don should get the 23HR, 28HR and 32HR - that would be the GetDPI Blessed approach

    As per the other recommendations and private emails we've had, be aware of the fickle nature of the 23HR and also the need for the CF which ironically CI got for me cheaper from Alpa than Rodenstock or Cambo. wtf??? (But still $800)

    With a full frame sensor I'd be tempted by the Rodie 28 but you'll still need the same filter.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Don
    I Had the 28XL just when it came out paired with an IQ180 and to make a long story short its not usable . Even unshifted it creates enormous colour cast and light fall off
    I made a test against the 32HR And immideately sold the 28XL as mich as i Love the Form factor and minimal distortion . I also have the 23HR which sometimes is a life saver for my type of work ( interior and architecture) but its top wide for my taste
    I also have the 43XL and had to see it due to colour cast and got the 40HR which I traded for a 50hr. If you need 28 go for the Rodenstock I think you'll. Be happier given the 180 back IMO
    www.rupho.com
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    I found the test I made a few years back definitely check it out and your save yourself a bucket load of cash:
    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...on-32hr-w.html
    Test were done on my Alpa max with the 28xl and somebody 's Arca with the 32HR side by side

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    I guess the only way to personally solve this problem yourself is to have a second digital back that would work with these ultra wide lens. If you don't have a second digital back, it makes you appreciate the 40mm even more.
    Last edited by PSon; 6th March 2015 at 21:58.
    ALPA (MAX, STC, TC) | CAMBO (Actus DB2, WRS-AE) | CONTAX | HASSELBLAD | LEICA | DB (CFV-16, CFV-39, IQ180, IQ360, IQ3100, P45+) | Lens (Canon, Fujinon, Leica, Nikon, Pentax, Rodenstock, Schneider, Zeiss)

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Quote Originally Posted by rupho View Post
    I found the test I made a few years back...
    Since your testing was done in June 2011, you won't have had access to the 28 XL's custom CF (released around March 2012) ?

    The CF can make a significant difference on a back like the 180, though shifting will still be limited. That said, so it is with the R/S 28, since it only has a 70mm IC with a hard vignette.

    Would be interesting to see the test done again with the CF and C1 v8.

    (OT: Darlene ('Darr') uses the 28 with a CFV-50c - it would be interesting to hear how she is getting along with it since the new CMOS sensor is reported to be 'difficult' with symmetrical WA lenses).

    Jim

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    32 and 40 aren't that close !

    Don't forget that the IQ180 sensor is quite large... i have a 35xl and a 45 with a 36x48 sensor, really different angles of view !

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    I've got a Cambo and IQ260. I originally bought the SK 28 after reading guy's review. Unfortunately, with 10mm of shift, certain scenes had uncorrectable colour casts, and the (huge) centre filter caused quite a bit of ghosting, even in only lightly backlit scenes - again, uncorrectable.

    So, I ended up swapping for the 28 HR on a T/S base. It's a far sharper lens BUT there is more distortion, which is clearly visible on architectural scenes and I don't use more than 5mm shift as the hard vignette appears in the corners. I use LCC on all images - the back doesn't show it, but there is colour cast visible when you open the files up in C1.

    I don't use the centre filter on the 28 HR, though I do have it. I haven't found it a problem. LCC seems to correct it easily and I quite like a little vignetting in some images.

    I would dearly like a 28mm lens with at least 10mm shift but these are the two choices. Overall, the 28 HR is a stunning lens, especially used at F8, with a little tilt - startling front to back sharpness right across the frame.

    The above is for an IQ260. I would imagine the problems will be the same or worse for a 180. I couldn't recommend the SK28 for it.

    Had I realised the above, I would have bought the 32 HR, even though it's got a narrower FOV. It has less distortion and over 10mm of shift so somewhat making up for being less wide.



    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    I'm doing research on how well a Schneider 28mm will perform using a Cambo WRS and IQ180 combo.

    I read Guys comparison write-up between the HR & SK that was several years ago and back then it appears the SK might not have been well suited on the 180. But things change; such as C1.

    So the question is - will a SK 28 work well on a 180 using a WRS. How much movement is there? (I'm not expecting much if any) What are the issues and are they correctable in C1. I'd also expect the CF is a must.

    If the SK is a bust I'll have to rethink the HR but I'd like to hear from those who have actual experience.

    Don
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    Member Richard Osbourne's Avatar
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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    I should add that the 28 HR handles flare reasonably well - big orange blob opposite the light source in worst case but can easily be dealt with by masking the sun and combining files in PS. If you have the sun in the frame (which I include in a lot of my work), there can be bad ghosting - but no worse than most W/A lenses. Certainly better than the Phase 28 lens.

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    Wonderful lens, and if it came with a 90mm IC, well, enough said.

    There are some unique optical issues besides flare that will sometimes occur, in the attached image, I have shown the main ones. Note these are all when you shift the lens, on center none of this shows up. I numbered the areas of the image to try and make it clear.

    1. Is a strange ghosting, that seems to happen with my lens on shifts much past 3mm, if I have a situation where I am working with gaining light on the side of the shift. It's a lighted curve that matches the curve of the IC but starts within 2mm of shift.

    2. This is what I believe is penumbra of the IC, On the 28 HR you will almost always see it if you see the hard edge of the IC. This can really only effect the topmost part of the shift. This image I shifted to 7mm or so. 5mm and you will not see the black hard vignette.

    3. This is the mark left by the IC indicator installed by Rodenstock (never have figured that one out). It creates all kinds of weird issues and you will not be able to correct it with the LCC. Sometimes depending on the file, content aware can remove it. As you can see on a 7mm shift, it's not too much of the overall image. It's also very easy to crop into the overall stitched image to get more of panorama.

    I have tried shifting without the CF on and sometimes the strange ghosting of the IC edge doesn't show up, but the other issues still happen.

    This shot was taken with the CF installed and a thin CL-PL on the CF.

    My 28HR with 1/2 of a degree of tilt will most often have a hyperfocal distance in the range of 8 feet to infinity @ f8 +1 (copal talk) aperture.

    Paul

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    Re: 28mm on a 180

    This is the full shot, taken last fall, IQ260, 7mm of shift left and Right, 28HR F11. I am a lover of the vast hyperfocal range of this lens. I always make 3 full shifts, as the light may change so fast that I may just run with L and R or use all three, and or create the shot and pull in pieces that help create the look I wanted to start with. These were taken a 1/4 to 1 sec of exposure at iso50, thus a bit of movement in the leaves as it was not dead calm, however the detail is still there.


    As usual the sRGB conversion has killed my sky a bit, but the effect is still there.

    Paul

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