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Thread: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

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    IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    I have recently upgraded my back from a phase one p25+ to an iq160 and am having issues with the wide angled lenses when stitching.
    I have a Rodenstock apo sironar 35mm and 45mm.

    The 45 is sometimes ok not quite sure why it varies, the 35mm is fairly hopeless and has incorrectable cast at the edges.

    Would the 35 mm and 47mm Schnieders xl s be any better. Or how about replacing both with the Rodenstock 40mm HR?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated

    Thanks

    David

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    40HR is your best bet, if you need wider, 32HR.

    The 35 and 47 SK are not really usable on the IQ180, though there are people that do use them on the IQ160.

    I tried the new 43XL on my IQ180, and was not too thrilled, but I think it would be ok on the IQ160, but ask around on this forum.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Thanks for that.
    Anyone tried the Schnieders with iq160 and stitching?

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    It's hard to beat the HR40 t/s, particularly in the focal range you have

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Thanks. It's looking like that's the way I'll go. Will it need a centre filter? I can't see one on the dealer's site.

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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    I faced the same issues when upgrading from Leaf Aptus-II 7 (33mp) to IQ160. I had the 35XL and 47XL and decided to sell them both and get the Rodenstock 40HR and Schneider 60XL instead, both in T/S mounts. Expensive yes but worth it (to me)
    For stitching I wouldn't recommend the 35 and 47XL with the IQ160, not only because of the color cast but also due to issues with tiling when shifting, especially left/right.
    Peter
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    That's great to hear Pemihan. Thanks
    I'll get onto the dealers immediately!!

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Do you use a centre filter with it?

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    There really isn't a CF available from Rodie, but even with the IQ180, I have never felt I needed one

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Much information here:
    DT Tech Camera Tests
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcchurchill View Post
    Do you use a centre filter with it?
    With the 35xl and 47XL I did. With the 40HR I don't feel the need for a CF and if fact Rodenstock doesn't have one, but I think Dave (dchew) is using another CF for it.
    I have a CF for the 60XL but have never used it.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcchurchill View Post
    I have recently upgraded my back from a phase one p25+ to an iq160 and am having issues with the wide angled lenses when stitching.
    I have a Rodenstock apo sironar 35mm and 45mm.

    The 45 is sometimes ok not quite sure why it varies, the 35mm is fairly hopeless and has incorrectable cast at the edges.

    Would the 35 mm and 47mm Schnieders xl s be any better. Or how about replacing both with the Rodenstock 40mm HR?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated

    Thanks

    David
    Here is a run down of the wides I have used on a 160/260 on tech.

    28 Rodie. Excellent on center, amazing hyperfocal, max shift 7mm and that's a push. If you have a lot of blue sky it's more like 5mm max. I use the Rodenstock CF with this lens. Big lens, and heavy.

    35 SK Schneider, Excellent on center, Best I feel a F11 to F16. Shift max 10mm, 8mm better. 10mm will show a good bit of color shift, so if blue sky is involved, can be hard to correct. Lens can tile and will give you microlens ripple, which C1 can't always totally correct. Very small footprint.

    40mm Rodie, Excellent on center, in my use, best from F5.6 to F11. Will easily shift to 20mm on the 160, however due to internal IC indicator, 15mm is about max. After that the IC indicator will create a hard vignette. If working with sky, very hard to correct, if not sky, sometimes I can get creative, other wise you are cropping quite a bit. I sometimes use a CF on this lens with the 260, as in low light extreme shifts are noisy on the CCD backs. Expect to bracket in low light. Hyperfocal is great and with a bit of tilt about 12 to 15 feet to infinity. This lens seems to tile less on the 260/160, but still gets microlens ripple at times. C1 does a good job of correcting ripple IMO on this lens, better than Schneiders. However I STRONGLY feel that C1 does not do a great job on the color cast on shifts, I still see red cast in blues on 12mm to 15mm of shift at times. As mentioned great all round lens. I bit heavy.

    43 SK, Excellent on center, a bit less hyperfocal distance than 40mm Rodie, 18 feet to infinity. Needs a CF IMO. Shifts, up to 18mm on the 260/160, but expect a bit of detail loss on 15mm out. Color shift can be intense and expect tiling and microlens rippling. C1 again doesn't totally seem to correct for this on the 43SK. Past 15mm of shift a bit of detail smearing, but not as bad as on the 180 back. I feel best from F11 to F16. Very light weight and compact, nice to carry in the field.

    60SK, so far my best around lens, on the CCD 60MP. I use the CF on it, others don't but I feel it helps on shifts. You can shift this lens to 25mm on the 160/260. At this much shift, color casts can be extreme and microlens ripple may cause issues. I use this lens to around 20mm most of the time. No internal IC indicator, so no hard vignette. Really very little detail fall off out to 20mm, by 25mm starting to show a bit. Color casts can be correctly by C1 pretty well, and from what I have seen microlens ripple. However this lens doesn't seem to have as much ripple issues as the 35 and 43SK. Really hoping that this lens plays as well or close with the CMOS sensors. Testing is a bit vague on this. Light weight package, and compact.

    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    +1 on the 60XL, best all rounder - price, size, no extension box, sharpness, IC size, colour, colour shift

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Great thanks guys. All really useful. I've just ordered the Rodie 40mm and will see how I go.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Dcchurchill View Post
    I have recently upgraded my back from a phase one p25+ to an iq160 and am having issues with the wide angled lenses when stitching.
    I have a Rodenstock apo sironar 35mm and 45mm.

    The 45 is sometimes ok not quite sure why it varies, the 35mm is fairly hopeless and has incorrectable cast at the edges.

    Would the 35 mm and 47mm Schnieders xl s be any better. Or how about replacing both with the Rodenstock 40mm HR?

    Any thoughts would be appreciated

    Thanks

    David

    I recently went from a P40+ to a Credo 60. The SK 35 xl was useable but a CF was used and the LCC was doing a lot of work even with the lens centered. I sold the 35 xl and replaced it with a 40HR. I briefly considered the 32HR but realized I didn't really live on the wide end of things enough to justify the cost, size, and de facto requirement for a CF, the last item being what I have gleaned from the crowd sourced intel of GetDpi.

    I am in the early stages of learning the 40HR and my initial observations are the LCC does very little work with the lens unshifted, I was very pleasantly surprised! When shifted the LCC does a bit more work, but it's mostly for vignetting, color casts are still well controlled. 10mm shifted stitches are easy work for the 40HR, and I believe the general consensus in Dantes inferno is that 20mm shift works well also, but I haven't really worked that very hard yet.

    My summary so far is that the 40HR is worlds better and more versatile on a 60mp (Dalsa) sensor than than the 35xl and will offer you equal or greater angle of view when stitching capabilities and limitations are balanced between the two. You and your IQ 160 will be much happier with the 40HR. Only downside is that the 40 HR is quite a bit larger than the diminutive 35xl.

    Fred

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    One of my oldest and most used lens on the WRS was a SK35 (with CF). The closer I got to getting a IQ180 I knew that I'd have to drop it (used it well with a P45+, P65 and IQ160) so I went with the 40HR and love it. No need for a CF and very forgiving as far as LCC goes with the 160 although I've found I need to do more with the 180. I've been very pleased with the movements both on the 160 and 180 so if you're in a place where you might need to go wide then you can go really wide. That also helps in keeping the weight down as you hike out someplace - no need for dual lens.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    With the 35xl and 47XL I did. With the 40HR I don't feel the need for a CF and if fact Rodenstock doesn't have one, but I think Dave (dchew) is using another CF for it.
    I have a CF for the 60XL but have never used it.
    That was Paul with the center filter I think. I do have (and use) one for the 60xl though. I echo your comments and Paul's regarding both the 40hr and 60xl.

    I used to have the 43xl. Although I miss the size, the 40 is the more useful option.

    Dave
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    35 SK Schneider, Excellent on center, Best I feel a F11 to F16. Shift max 10mm, 8mm better. 10mm will show a good bit of color shift, so if blue sky is involved, can be hard to correct. Lens can tile and will give you microlens ripple, which C1 can't always totally correct. Very small footprint.
    Paul
    I have to second the 35mm usage. I was just at a client's studio where they had two 60mp Credo backs with a 35mm Sinaron lens, and the tiling was driving them insane. They were using it specifically for a client who required something with that perspective, but the color casting tiling they were running into was ruining their workflow. I recommended they either use a smaller crop sensor back (like their Credo 40) or move to a 40mm Rodenstock HR lens.
    Chris Valites
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Thanks everybody. You are all reinforcing my decision. Now eagerly awaiting the arrival of the lens. Hopefully soon......I'll do an update on how I get on with it.

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Valites View Post
    I have to second the 35mm usage. I was just at a client's studio where they had two 60mp Credo backs with a 35mm Sinaron lens, and the tiling was driving them insane. They were using it specifically for a client who required something with that perspective, but the color casting tiling they were running into was ruining their workflow. I recommended they either use a smaller crop sensor back (like their Credo 40) or move to a 40mm Rodenstock HR lens.
    35mm Sinaron or 35mm Digitar?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    What do you guys mean by "tiling" in this context? I understand seeing tiling of the 6-sensor structure, but I find that is not related to lens or pixel structure (I have an image with that type of tiling from a P65+ / DF / 150mm lens - which definitely does not have acute angles to the sensor).

    Dave
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    I faced the same issues when upgrading from Leaf Aptus-II 7 (33mp) to IQ160. I had the 35XL and 47XL and decided to sell them both and get the Rodenstock 40HR and Schneider 60XL instead, both in T/S mounts. Expensive yes but worth it (to me)
    For stitching I wouldn't recommend the 35 and 47XL with the IQ160, not only because of the color cast but also due to issues with tiling when shifting, especially left/right.
    Ditto with 35/47 -> 40 HR. The schneiders were good but both needed centre filters with the IQ160. Loved both lenses for a long time but the 40HR is significantly better overall IMHO.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Any chance someone could post an example of micro lens ripple? I've heard it mentioned but never seen what it looks like.

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by dchew View Post
    What do you guys mean by "tiling" in this context? I understand seeing tiling of the 6-sensor structure, but I find that is not related to lens or pixel structure (I have an image with that type of tiling from a P65+ / DF / 150mm lens - which definitely does not have acute angles to the sensor).

    Dave
    As I understand it, tiling is only going to be seen in the Dalsa sensors that have the readout lines. The readout lines are there to speed up the processing of the image on the 60 and 80MP sensors. However this readout has to be calibrated to keep the image even from all the sections. At times you will see a vertical line in your shot, this is from one of the readout's not being in calibration with the others. The issue is most of a concern on a solid subject, sky, water, etc and can be worse in a B&W conversion. The LCC taken during the process should give C1 the information to help remove this and the back is calibrated also. However many times a back, the 80MP seem more prone to this, needs to be re-calibrated. Sometimes this can be done by a dealer over the phone other times, the back goes back to Phase One.

    At times, if you are zoomed into 100%, you can actually see C1 process out the readouts in that as you move around, you may see a large portion of a piece of sky seem darker or see a vertical line and then it will disappear. Most times, you won't see the tiling on the LCC at time of capture.

    Some lenses are more prone to have issues with tiling on the Dalsa sensors for example, my 43SK did it almost everytime on a rise of 5mm but did not seem to have the same problem with shifts of up to 18mm.

    Microlens ripple, is an issue with movements and most times is only seen on the edge of the shfited image. Very distinctive effect, hard straight lines looking like banding about 1/8 of an inch apart. The more the shift, the more the ripple. You tend to see these with all tech lenses, again the Schneider ones seem a bit more prone to it i.e. with a lot of movement. Here you WILL see the ripple in the LCC taken after the shot, if you zoom into 100%. However when you process the LCC in C1, the ripple should be taken out. Does it work all the time, no. On my 35SK, the ripple was very harsh and C1 never really got it out. On my 43 SK, it could be depending on the shot. With the 40 HR-W, you will get it, very faintly with large movement on a 60MP or 80MP sensor but C1 does an excellent job of getting it out. So much that you really can't see the effect of it on a solid color, like sky. I will try to post a shot later.

    Paul
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Thanks Paul,
    I guess we are talking about the same thing, but I've just never seen an association with specific lenses. Maybe because I have not shifted the 40hr much. But as I mentioned above, I occasionally see tiling on a random list of lenses including a shot from a DF / moderate telephoto on a P65+. I'm not sure I can work out in my head why a more acute angle to the sensor fron closer exit pupils would make tiling worse. I totally understand lens cast, crosstalk and ripple. Just not the link between tiling and lens. I suppose there could be a larger gap where the sensors are joined together which might explain it.

    Dave
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    35mm Sinaron or 35mm Digitar?
    Sinaron. Older lens they had around, wanted to get remounted. Pretty gnarly color issues with the smaller circle, as well as some pretty obvious looking, almost quadrant like cut images.
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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    My new 40mm HR arrived yesterday and I am extremely happy with it. It has enough image circle for the stitches I like to do and is much more usable right to the edges than my old 35mm and 45mm APO sironars. Thanks for the advice.
    Does anyone have any experience with a SK Super Angulon 90mm XL with IQ 160? I would look at the rodenstock digital 90 but the image circle is too small for me.

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Congrats! Always eager to help others spend their money wisely

    The new Rodie 90HRSW has a 125mm IC and is sharp well into the corners. The other option may be the SK 120 ASPH. it has a 150mm IC and here a very large FoV with movements. It is also very sharp and quite small, and "relatively" cheap.

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    As I understand the 90mm HR-SW It has a 120mm IC as Rodenstock backed off the 125mm IC of the older 90mm HR and HR-W. The 90mm HR-SW also needs the back extension which adds a bit of complexity.

    The 120mm Digitar APO is a much lighter lens, still needs the back extension however. As Schneider has stated they are getting out of the digital kens business, not sure how much longer this excellent lens will be available.

    As the the 90mm Schneider, I am considering one of these myself. I have read good things about it but never used one. It's also very light and compact.

    Paul

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    Re: IQ160 wide lenses for stitching with tech camera

    Well I have now ordered a SK SA 90mm xl. Hopefully should arrive tomorrow. I'll keep you posted.

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