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Thread: Comparison of MF lenses

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    Comparison of MF lenses

    Would anybody know a site comparing the MF DLSRs lenses between brands: Mamiya/Schneider for Phase1, Leica S, Hasselblad HC and Pentax?

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    This is a subject I was interested in too before jumping into MF, but didn't find anything suitable, it seems that these camera systems are just uncommon enough not to receive standardized testing. Sometimes you'll find the occasional review by someone who also has another system or DSLR, or a test by a dealer, but nothing where you can cycle though comprehensive data sets of lenses at different apertures and focal lengths.

    Since testing has to be done under unchanging conditions, it would have to be performed by an entity that has ready access to all these systems, something that not many dealerships can do, let alone independent users.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Even if it is not "standardized testing", I would not mind some links to comparison reviews, in particular of wide-angle lenses...

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Even if it is not "standardized testing", I would not mind some links to comparison reviews, in particular of wide-angle lenses...
    This is old, but here's one:


    http://www.16-9.net/lens_tests/pentax645_fa35mm.html
    Last edited by tsjanik; 5th May 2015 at 16:28.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    This is old, but here's one:
    Pentax 645 FA 35mm Review
    Indeed it is old.

    Since "standardized testing" web sites are not to be found, anyone is aware of a site showing comparison images? For example, the same pictures taken with the Pentax 25mm, PhaseOne and Schneider 28mm and HCD28 would be interesting.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Maybe threads should be created for the most requested lens examples (i.e., SK 28xl images, Pentax 25mm images, HCD28 images, etc.).

    I think most dealers do not have a large stock of lenses sitting on their shelves (maybe B&H) or the initiative to do such tests for sale purposes (the less desirable lenses may become doorstops), so this would leave it to owners/users.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Hi,

    All those companies except Pentax publish MTF curves. When Leica published their curves, they were calculated and not measured.

    Leica, Hasselblad and Zeiss use 10/20/40 lp/mm. Leica usually adds 5 lp/mm, too.

    Rodenstock and Schneider use different schemes, it is often 15/30/60 lp/mm.

    There are some problems with those curves:

    1) They usually are calculated at infinity
    2) They apply to flat field
    3) They don't show out of focus rendition

    On the plus side, they are good indication of lens performance under the conditions they are applicable for.

    As an example, many lenses have significant field curvature. Field curvature may often work in our favour. Foreground is often peripheral, so a field that curves towards the photographer may bring foreground detail in focus although the camera is focused near infinity.

    That also mean that sharpness is lost at the edge.

    Your tests with landscape shots covering the diagonal should match MTF curves pretty well.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Would anybody know a site comparing the MF DLSRs lenses between brands: Mamiya/Schneider for Phase1, Leica S, Hasselblad HC and Pentax?

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    Maybe threads should be created for the most requested lens examples (i.e., SK 28xl images, Pentax 25mm images, HCD28 images, etc.).
    For HC lenses, there is hasselbladdigitalforum.com, but it does not offer comparisons with other brands.

    I think most dealers do not have a large stock of lenses sitting on their shelves
    Quite on the contrary, many dealers have a full or almost full collection of lenses for rental.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    All those companies except Pentax publish MTF curves.
    Leica, Hasselblad and Zeiss use 10/20/40 lp/mm. Leica usually adds 5 lp/mm, too.

    Rodenstock and Schneider use different schemes, it is often 15/30/60 lp/mm.
    I was not able to find MTF data for the central shutter lenses made by Schneider Kreuznach for the PhaseOne / Mamiya cameras. Rodenstock and Schneider Kreuznach only publish MTF data for their lenses designed for technical cameras and indeed traced for different values, which makes comparison difficult.


    There are some problems with those curves:

    1) They usually are calculated at infinity
    2) They apply to flat field
    3) They don't show out of focus rendition
    Indeed.


    As an example, many lenses have significant field curvature. Field curvature may often work in our favour. Foreground is often peripheral, so a field that curves towards the photographer may bring foreground detail in focus although the camera is focused near infinity.
    This is only valid for simple lens designs. Modern wide-angles often behave in the opposite manner, with maximum corner sharpness rejected beyond the focus distance chosen for the centre point.

    Your tests with landscape shots covering the diagonal should match MTF curves pretty well.
    It does, but I only did these tests for HC or HCD lenses in MF (I did some Minolta, Sony and Nikon lenses in 24x36) and no-one has ever shown any interest in doing the same tests for other brands although:
    -it is a test which is comparatively very easy to set up
    -it is a test which removes most potential sources of errors
    -it is a test which gives results which are useful for landscape photographers.

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    Senior Member darr's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Quite on the contrary, many dealers have a full or almost full collection of lenses for rental.
    I disagree, as I have had to wait on delivery when a lens was ordered from a distributor/supplier because it was not sitting on a dealer shelf. This was also the case back in my 4x5 days. I found if I was looking for a Rodenstock or SK lens without a specific mount, B&H was the best supplier, if a specific mount was necessary (Alpa, Arca Swiss, etc.) call the dealers and cross your fingers. The dealers I have dealt with in the US do not sell all the brands, so what you are looking for may not be possible if you could talk a dealer into doing it. Then a few years goes by and there is a new lens line-up.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    All those companies except Pentax publish MTF curves. When Leica published their curves, they were calculated and not measured.

    Leica, Hasselblad and Zeiss use 10/20/40 lp/mm. Leica usually adds 5 lp/mm, too.

    Rodenstock and Schneider use different schemes, it is often 15/30/60 lp/mm.

    There are some problems with those curves:

    1) They usually are calculated at infinity
    2) They apply to flat field
    3) They don't show out of focus rendition

    On the plus side, they are good indication of lens performance under the conditions they are applicable for.
    In the real world those MTF charts are just theoretical and don't address the real issue of assembly and calibration - which is abominable for the price paid for Rody's and Schneider Digitars. The biggest culprit for me is lens skewing with one side or top/bottom not in alignment with the other side. One side will focus near and the other side will focus far. Schneider corrected two of my lenses for free but it took a fairly long time and the lenses had to be sent back to Germany. You won't know this problem exists without testing the lens yourself. They are all different..... I corresponded with another forum member who had just purchased a Rody 32mm only to find out that it was horribly out of alignment. My recommendation is to test any Rody/Schneider lens for alignment..... they all have the potential for greatness as long as they are aligned and assembled properly.

    Victor

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Quite on the contrary, many dealers have a full or almost full collection of lenses for rental.
    Yes and no... You can expect a smaller dealer like Digital Transitions to carry a full suit of Phase and tech lenses, but no Hass or Leica. They're willing to dig into details, but they can only compare products they have in stock.
    A big retailer like B&H is worried a lot more about profit, so good luck getting them to open the box of a $5000 lens, heck they have almost no medium format glass on display except for some H lenses.

    In any case, I've thought about the possibility aggregating lens data from various forum members, but it seems that even finding a sufficiently high-density test chart for printing is proving to be difficult, currently I only found a 2000 line ISO12233 vector that hardly seems suitable for 40~80mp resolutions, and Imatest seems to want you to buy their overpriced software to print and measure their targets.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    I know that dealers do not want to open boxes. I was talking about rentals, who have a large amount of lenses.

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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Hi,

    All you need for Imatest is a bit of black tape. There are some options to Imatest that are using the same basic principles.

    You may look at this one: http://sourceforge.net/projects/mtfmapper/

    There is another commercial product around 99$ but I cannot recall the site. If I find it I will post.

    Best regards
    Erik






    QUOTE=Kolor-Pikker;639992]Yes and no... You can expect a smaller dealer like Digital Transitions to carry a full suit of Phase and tech lenses, but no Hass or Leica. They're willing to dig into details, but they can only compare products they have in stock.
    A big retailer like B&H is worried a lot more about profit, so good luck getting them to open the box of a $5000 lens, heck they have almost no medium format glass on display except for some H lenses.

    In any case, I've thought about the possibility aggregating lens data from various forum members, but it seems that even finding a sufficiently high-density test chart for printing is proving to be difficult, currently I only found a 2000 line ISO12233 vector that hardly seems suitable for 40~80mp resolutions, and Imatest seems to want you to buy their overpriced software to print and measure their targets.[/QUOTE]

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I know that dealers do not want to open boxes. I was talking about rentals, who have a large amount of lenses.
    Now that I think about it, Lens Rentals carries just about everything under the sun, in multiple copies, and does regular testing of rented lenses to ensure that they're working as they should, so I do wonder why they don't share their findings...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    All you need for Imatest is a bit of black tape. There are some options to Imatest that are using the same basic principles.

    You may look at this one: MTF mapper | SourceForge.net
    Hmm... that's actually pretty clever, I may try it out sometime.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Now that I think about it, Lens Rentals carries just about everything under the sun, in multiple copies, and does regular testing of rented lenses to ensure that they're working as they should, so I do wonder why they don't share their findings...
    Lens Rentals http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/medium-format/
    only list Pentax MF.
    They do post comparisons in the blog of 35mm gear which can be fascinating.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisLivsey View Post
    Lens Rentals http://www.lensrentals.com/rent/medium-format/
    only list Pentax MF.
    They do post comparisons in the blog of 35mm gear which can be fascinating.
    I could've sworn I've seen them list other camera systems... then, who does carry all the major MF brands?

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    As far as rental agents goes, it is difficult in the US to rent digital backs due to insurance requirements (this has been discussed in this forum previously), and being able to find a dealer with various lenses from different manufacturers within the same focal length is far reaching. If a dealer published the differences between similar focal length lenses, it would not be prudent for future sales as only one lens may come out on top.

    What would be a great project for forum members to do is contribute to threads where individual images shot with specific focal length lenses could be looked at. But as someone that has been shooting large format and medium format professionally and personally for over 30 years, all I can say is, technique can have a lot to do with the results as well as the condition of the lenses themselves. "C'est la vie."
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    What would be a great project for forum members to do is contribute to threads where individual images shot with specific focal length lenses could be looked at. But as someone that has been shooting large format and medium format professionally and personally for over 30 years, all I can say is, technique can have a lot to do with the results as well as the condition of the lenses themselves. "C'est la vie."
    So far this is my conclusion too, but besides technique there are other factors that narrow down the range of shooting environments, outdoors you have atmospheric effects that can do a number on your judgement. Get an 80MP back & 150mm+ lens and watch the heat distortion destroy your hopes and dreams.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Darr, is absolutely correct about technique. A too small tripod, holding a cable release wrongly, or doing a test in a windy area are all problems.
    The higher the megapixels, the more issues crop up as well. Also the aperture and focal length, are factors. You need to stop down a minimum of one stop to counter curvature of field, and more if you are shifting the lens. But the higher the MP of the back the less you can stop down with standard to wide angles. Also if you miss focus the contrast as well as the sharpness is affected.
    Stopping down also steps up focus shift. The red, especially, really starts coming forward, and if you are using a wide lens, say a 35mm, but are using a 80mp back, you may have less than stellar results being you really are fighting diffraction as you get to F8.5-F8.75. 60mp and lesser backs, allows use of F11.75 so the increase in depth of focus, as well as, depth of field, covers the focus shift and all is well.
    My recent tests of 135mm to 210mm lenses have shown that F 11.5 to F16 is fine with these focal lengths and 80mp backs, and F22 can be spectacular with 60mp backs when couple with these focal lengths. The 90mm to 120mm gains a bout 1/2 stop over the above quoted settings, but one should test these apertures with their own backs to determine best quality setting with the long focal lengths.
    Many people have been disappointed with a lens, when the problem is more with the chosen aperture, technique, etc.

    I have just been shooting with my 210mm and 150mm Apo-Sironar S Rodenstocks.
    As i said before, at F22, with a 40mp and a 60mp digital back, they are stellar!
    And the Schneider Apo-Symmar L are quite similar in results.
    The Previous series from both manufacturers are less successful with digital backs, so look for S Rodenstocks, or L Schneiders.

    If anyone wishes to discuss this further contact me, and I will be happy to talk about it.
    Rod
    US Representative, Arca-Swiss International
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Hi Rod,
    So are you saying that the Schneider APO-DIGITAR 5.6/210 T 32degree MC is a less desirable lens?
    Stanley

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by darr View Post
    What would be a great project for forum members to do is contribute to threads where individual images shot with specific focal length lenses could be looked at. But as someone that has been shooting large format and medium format professionally and personally for over 30 years, all I can say is, technique can have a lot to do with the results as well as the condition of the lenses themselves. "C'est la vie."
    I have posted a simple test and results for Hasselblad H lenses here:
    http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/...?topic=94852.0
    (I can't do the same here because of image size restrictions, but there is a link at the end to get the images when one is not a member of luminous-landscape).

    I would be interested in results of a similar test for Pentax, Leica or PhaseOne.

    As people have noted here, this particular test is not adapted to longer focal lengths, because of atmospheric turbulence and haze. This is why I only tested lenses up to 100mm focal length.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I was not able to find MTF data for the central shutter lenses made by Schneider Kreuznach for the PhaseOne / Mamiya cameras.
    Actually, I found this page with some data about these lenses today:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/redirect...-one-mamiya%2F

    I tried to scale the curves available for the 28mm lenses so that they can be directly compared (at f/8 and with the limitation that Schneider Kreuznach uses higher values of 15, 30 and 60 lp/mm instead of 10, 20, 40):

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    For HC lenses, there is hasselbladdigitalforum.com, but it does not offer comparisons with other brands.



    Quite on the contrary, many dealers have a full or almost full collection of lenses for rental.

    You are correct Jerome.

    The bigger issue is not whether we have them on the shelf, but dedicating the time to do a proper test. It's easy to do a test. But quite difficult and time consuming to do a proper test with equivalent conditions for all the participating products that is of a quality that qualifies for publishing.

    And it isn't that we (or any responsible, service-oriented dealer) would wish to hide a lens that doesn't perform well - as was mentioned in one post. We certainly know which lenses don't perform well, even if we don't have an appropriate publish-ready test available. I've performed many, many lens tests that just weren't quite up to the level of a publishable test for various reasons, but gave me enough information to be able to know which lenses perform better or worse than others, and in which situations.

    We specifically test internally to know which lenses to recommend or not. If a lens isn't a good performer, there's no..... darn way in the world we're going to hide that information from our clients.

    Do you think _____ (fill in the blank for any number of online merchants) cares if someone buys a crappy lens from them?

    I have many lens comparison files that I personally send to my clients who are considering various lenses. And further, we perform custom tests for individual clients - I will ask what type of scene/subject matter, and then will shoot the lenses in question and share the files with that client.

    So - unfortunately, a comprehensive, all things equivalent lens comparison across numerous product lines up and down doesn't exist. But it is definitely possible to find out what you need to know. There's many resources out there, forums, end users, manufacturer data, and yes, (some) dealers.


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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Hendrix View Post
    And it isn't that we (or any responsible, service-oriented dealer) would wish to hide a lens that doesn't perform well
    I dont think that there are many MF lenses which do not perform well. There may be better lenses than other, but my experience with MF has always been reasonably satisfying. My idea is not to find a "perfect" lens, but rather to learn about the design choices of the various brands involved.

    I have many lens comparison files that I personally send to my clients who are considering various lenses. And further, we perform custom tests for individual clients - I will ask what type of scene/subject matter, and then will shoot the lenses in question and share the files with that client.
    I am not a client. I am generally satisfied with the lenses I have (Hasselblad H) and do not need further ones. Neither am I likely to get equipment from a dealer in America, while I live in Europe. Under those circumstances, I would not think it fair to require custom tests from a dealer I have no intention to buy equipment from.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I dont think that there are many MF lenses which do not perform well. There may be better lenses than other, but my experience with MF has always been reasonably satisfying. My idea is not to find a "perfect" lens, but rather to learn about the design choices of the various brands involved.
    That may be true, but there certainly are lenses that we will simply not recommend, depending on what the application is. And whether any would be considered "poor performers" (someone else's words, not mine) or not, there certainly are differences in performance, which is really the jist of what you're after. My comment regarding poor performing lenses was more focused in response to whether a dealer would conceal such information from a potential client. Didn't mean to confuse things.


    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    I am not a client. I am generally satisfied with the lenses I have (Hasselblad H) and do not need further ones. Neither am I likely to get equipment from a dealer in America, while I live in Europe. Under those circumstances, I would not think it fair to require custom tests from a dealer I have no intention to buy equipment from.
    I understand - again, this is in response to the broader question for others of how to get performance data for these lenses. In your case though, I would expect any dealer that is in a vicinity you do business in that is focused on medium format solutions to have a similar inventory and a similar willingness to provide custom examples.


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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Now that I found some MTF curves, I tried to compare them. Of the curves available for wide-angle MF lenses, only the ones for Hasselblad H and Phase One / Mamiya lenses can be directly compared and only at f/8. Since the only wide-angle lenses with the same focal length between the two brands are the 28mm and 35mm, there is not much data which can be compared directly. For the Hasselblad HCD 28mm, the curve only goes to 31mm (the corner of the x1.1 sensors): the lens does not cover the x1 sensor size. Still, the comparison is useful for people using the smaller sensor sizes, including the new cmos based offers.

    The curves for the 28mm and 35mm at f/8 have been scaled and stacked on top of each other for direct comparison. Hasselblad curves are black and Phase One / Mamiya curves are coloured. It would seem that the Hasselblad lenses are more homogenous from centre to corner.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Hi Rod,
    So are you saying that the Schneider APO-DIGITAR 5.6/210 T 32degree MC is a less desirable lens?
    Stanley
    Not at all. But these are no longer made apparently, and the quality of the Apo-Symmar-L is exceptional, and similar, if you cannot find one of the T series.
    The Rodenstock Apo-Sironar-S series is also in this class of superb performers if used at correct apertures.
    Rod
    US Representative, Arca-Swiss International
    R-Line Technical Cameras, Large Format View Cameras, Tripod Heads D4, D4m, P1, P0, Z1, Z2, C1 Cube.
    http://www.rodklukas.com/arca-swiss 480-755-3364
    Instagram @arcaswissusa Facebook @arcaswissusa

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Now that I found some MTF curves, I tried to compare them. Of the curves available for wide-angle MF lenses, only the ones for Hasselblad H and Phase One / Mamiya lenses can be directly compared and only at f/8. Since the only wide-angle lenses with the same focal length between the two brands are the 28mm and 35mm, there is not much data which can be compared directly. For the Hasselblad HCD 28mm, the curve only goes to 31mm (the corner of the x1.1 sensors): the lens does not cover the x1 sensor size. Still, the comparison is useful for people using the smaller sensor sizes, including the new cmos based offers.

    The curves for the 28mm and 35mm at f/8 have been scaled and stacked on top of each other for direct comparison. Hasselblad curves are black and Phase One / Mamiya curves are coloured. It would seem that the Hasselblad lenses are more homogenous from centre to corner.
    They tend to use F8 because diffraction starts to show up past F8.5 with 80mp backs and so they test and graph all the lenses there so they only need do one set of graphs. This is even though a lower megapixel back may allow use to F11.5-16 with little or no apparent diffraction showing up. A usaer needs to test for their personal GE factor.(GOOD ENOUGH)
    The longer lenses will also show far less than the standard to wide angles. So with an 80mm and a 120-150mm, and longer, you may be happier at F16 and with a 40-60mp back F22 may be outstanding.

    Rod
    US Representative, Arca-Swiss International
    R-Line Technical Cameras, Large Format View Cameras, Tripod Heads D4, D4m, P1, P0, Z1, Z2, C1 Cube.
    http://www.rodklukas.com/arca-swiss 480-755-3364
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Traditionally, MTF curves are presented at full aperture and f/8. This is also true for 24x36 lenses and was already done before the advent of digital photography. I think the reason is not because it is expected that the photographer will use f/8, but because that aperture minimises the aberrations of large apertures, while still showing some useful differences.

    As to the effects of diffraction, theory predicts some loss of contrast between f/8 and f/11 on my 6 µm back and my tests confirm that effect. But the loss of contrast will not show on prints at that aperture, even large prints.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    This is a very nice discussion and very informative. Any information about the quality of Schneider Kreuznach 120mm TS f/5.6 lens compared to mamiya 120mm f4 macro D MF lens. They advertise the tech camera image quality with this lens. Is that true?

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Hi,

    Just as a small comment. Even on a system degraded by diffraction there is still benefits to high resolution backs. Quite true, if the image is viewed at actual pixels, the effect of diffraction would be more noticeable. But, would the higher resolution image be downscaled, the image would be better than the larger pixel image.

    The other aspect is that unless MTF goes below say 5-10%, detail can be restored with adequate sharpening.

    Another consideration is that 40 MP backs are mostly crop frames, so a 40 MP back may have smaller pixels than a full frame 60 MP back.

    Regarding MTF curves, you are absolutely right that any really good lens is affected by diffraction at f/8, truly excellent lenses may be affected by diffraction as early as at f/4. But this is all, "the more you have the more do you have to loose". A lens that becomes limited by diffraction at f/5.6 will be sharper than a lens limited by diffraction at f/8 at most apertures.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by RodK View Post
    They tend to use F8 because diffraction starts to show up past F8.5 with 80mp backs and so they test and graph all the lenses there so they only need do one set of graphs. This is even though a lower megapixel back may allow use to F11.5-16 with little or no apparent diffraction showing up. A usaer needs to test for their personal GE factor.(GOOD ENOUGH)
    The longer lenses will also show far less than the standard to wide angles. So with an 80mm and a 120-150mm, and longer, you may be happier at F16 and with a 40-60mp back F22 may be outstanding.

    Rod

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Oamkumar View Post
    This is a very nice discussion and very informative. Any information about the quality of Schneider Kreuznach 120mm TS f/5.6 lens compared to mamiya 120mm f4 macro D MF lens. They advertise the tech camera image quality with this lens. Is that true?
    The problem I had with this lens is vibration. The foot on it is quite small and when combined with the massive shutter on the DF, it was unusable in anything less than 1/250. This was a few years ago, Phase may have changed the design now. I was using MUP so, that was not really an issue.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    The problem I had with this lens is vibration. The foot on it is quite small and when combined with the massive shutter on the DF, it was unusable in anything less than 1/250. This was a few years ago, Phase may have changed the design now. I was using MUP so, that was not really an issue.
    Hi,
    Shutter vibration will be an issue. But I am doing flash photography and do not think the shutter vibration affects my kind of shoot. May be I'm comparing images from the tech cameras. Before going to the tech cam, I wanted to know about the 120mm TS lens. If it's really great, I will not have to go to tech cam area. I'm mainly doing products such as jewellery and fashion.
    Thanks.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Does the new XF body improve the situation with regards to vibrations ? I think I read somewhere that with it, you can just use the LS by itself, and avoid vibrations (almost) completely.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Does the new XF body improve the situation with regards to vibrations ? I think I read somewhere that with it, you can just use the LS by itself, and avoid vibrations (almost) completely.
    Jim Taskett and P1 rep touches on this @ 9:55 and @24:00 (pretty cool)
    PhaseOne XF Camera System - Photo Aesthetics - Photo Aesthetics
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Does the new XF body improve the situation with regards to vibrations ? I think I read somewhere that with it, you can just use the LS by itself, and avoid vibrations (almost) completely.
    I have asked my dealer about this, i.e. can you defeat the focal shutter on the XF and just use the LS shutter? That would be great, as on the DF+, this was not possible.

    The XF supposedly has a vibration sensor that from what I have read, will delay the shutter (focal) until the vibrations have reached an acceptable level. It has a seismic type sensor built in. But I have not really read that much on this feature yet, as I have only been able to find the marketing literature. However if you could defeat the focal and only use the LS shutter that would be a great new feature.

    Paul

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I have asked my dealer about this, i.e. can you defeat the focal shutter on the XF and just use the LS shutter? That would be great, as on the DF+, this was not possible.

    The XF supposedly has a vibration sensor that from what I have read, will delay the shutter (focal) until the vibrations have reached an acceptable level. It has a seismic type sensor built in. But I have not really read that much on this feature yet, as I have only been able to find the marketing literature. However if you could defeat the focal and only use the LS shutter that would be a great new feature.

    Paul
    With current firmware the focal plane shutter is disabled 100% when shooting from live view.

    In future firmware I would expect to see additional options for locking the focal plane shutter including the vibration mode you mention. But those options are not in the current firmware and are therefore in the believe-it-when-you-see-it category.

    In general purpose usage the XF will always fire the focal plane shutter as this allows faster maximum recycle times (for technical reasons). But in slower tripod based non flash work there are significant advantages to isolating the exposure to just the leaf shutter and I expect a variety of options (in addition to the one option present in today's firmware) in the future addressing this need.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Oamkumar View Post
    Hi,
    Shutter vibration will be an issue. But I am doing flash photography and do not think the shutter vibration affects my kind of shoot. May be I'm comparing images from the tech cameras. Before going to the tech cam, I wanted to know about the 120mm TS lens. If it's really great, I will not have to go to tech cam area. I'm mainly doing products such as jewellery and fashion.
    Thanks.


    Very good lens optically but kind of a hassle to use as you must manually open-up/stop-down the lens manually. Also you'll need extension rings to do any macro work and you'll need to mount the lens to the tripod rather than the body to minimize the change in POV when making optical movements.

    It's one of the lenses we prefer not to sell until someone has tried it hands on.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Very good lens optically but kind of a hassle to use as you must manually open-up/stop-down the lens manually. Also you'll need extension rings to do any macro work and you'll need to mount the lens to the tripod rather than the body to minimize the change in POV when making optical movements.

    It's one of the lenses we prefer not to sell until someone has tried it hands on.
    Doug is right about this lens (SK 120 TS). We had high hopes for the 120TS for exact same reasons (small product shoots with some movements for focus plane adj); but the dang thing was a pia to even do movements with. It requires rotation of lens body and then counter rotation to achieve desired tilt movements....Even after a week of using it (on loan from DT...thanks to Lance at DT, really appreciated that it was not a viable solution. and thats not even taking into account the manual settings and/or the extension rings for macro.
    We were hoping it would be designed like Canon's TS-E lenses but it is not. Canon's TS-E lenses are great functionally, but not good enough glass for our mfd sensors plus didn't want to get too complicated trying to make them work on the DF+'s

    recently we tried tech cam route and purchased SK 120mm ASPH/Copal-0
    Unfortunately, there is a high frequency vibration in the Copal shutter that only allows sharpness at flash durations of 1/6000th sec or faster (we tested it out...Don't ask...we are getting it repaired ....in any case, the 120 ASPH appears sharp enough compared to our PhaseOne 120 AF Macro but man, the tech cam version is a lot smaller! ( at least 1/4 the size) I was expecting more glass for that kind of money
    Anyway, when the shutter comes back from SK we will see how it stacks up.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    The XF supposedly has a vibration sensor that from what I have read, will delay the shutter (focal) until the vibrations have reached an acceptable level.
    That's an interesting statement, considering the fact that it's totally impossible.

    The focal-plane shutter opening is what causes the vibrations (unless your hands are shaking).

    So how can you delay its opening based on vibration that has not yet occurred?

    - Leigh

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    That's an interesting statement, considering the fact that it's totally impossible.

    The focal-plane shutter opening is what causes the vibrations (unless your hands are shaking).

    So how can you delay its opening based on vibration that has not yet occurred?

    - Leigh
    I don't know Leigh I don't design them just use them. You can read more about it in the Phase One marketing literature. It may be vibrations due to the mirror. Phase made quite a statement about the built in "edit" accelerometer sensor to allow the camera not to fire or fire again until all vibrations are gone.

    However I also don't know anything on the timing with a LS lens. With the DF+ both shutters fire not sure on the timing.

    Anything would be an improvement over the DF+ in regards to mirror shake.

    Here is more detail pulled from Brian Hirschfeld's blog that covers the feature.


    "The PhaseOne XF also features an accelerometer and 6-axis Gyro. Which I understand will become powerful tools as new features are added to this body through firmware upgrades. At release, an interesting feature resulting from these components is the “Seismographic mode”. This mode, uses mirror lock up (MLU) + a timer, with the aforementioned sensors to reduce vibrations when taking long exposure images. It does this by monitoring vibrations until they are reduced and then fires the camera shutter at this optimal moment. I believe this feature may only work with Leaf Shutter lenses, but I will update when this has been confirmed for me. Either way, really cool feature that takes advantage of these fancy new components, it will be exciting to see what else they will be able to do in the future (maybe tracking motion, so that a image-stabalization like de-blur feature can be used in C1?, after all once you have the movement data, its just math SEE BELOW).

    Update: Seismographic mode can be used with all lenses, however it will be most effective with leaf shutter lenses, given the vibration reduction inherent in not using the focal plane shutter.

    Also, we should be very excited about the possibilities of the accelerometer, at the time of my initial writing I was not aware of this, however a US Patent #US6747690 B2 entitled Digital camera with integrated accelerometers filed by PhaseOne a number of years ago suggests in its abstract that “Data relating to static and dynamic accelerations are stored with recorded image data for further processing, such as for correcting image data for roll, pitch and vibrations … Data may also be used on-the-fly for smear suppression caused by vibrations.” There are other PhaseOne patents that deal with the accelerometer, but this one would suggest that what I alluded to above could very much be on the menu in the not too distant future, and would certainly be a modern feature!"

    Paul
    Last edited by Paul2660; 18th July 2015 at 15:18.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Hi Paul,

    Well, I screwed up. I had been in a conversation about mirrorless cameras, and that mindset carried into this thread.

    Certainly the mirror would be a major source of vibration.

    Apologies for the error.

    - Leigh

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    I suppose that the XF cameras do the following:
    -close the leaf shutter
    -raise the mirror and open the focal plane shutter
    -wait till the vibrations have settled
    -then fire the leaf shutter for exposure.

    On H cameras, there is a function to keep the mirror raised and auxiliary (rear) shutter open after exposure. That allows to take a series of pictures without moving mirror or rear shutter, so without vibrations. The aperture can be adjusted in that mode, I often use it to take a series of pictures at different apertures. It can also be used to take a series of pictures at different exposures for HDR, etc...

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Hi Paul,

    Well, I screwed up. I had been in a conversation about mirrorless cameras, and that mindset carried into this thread.

    Certainly the mirror would be a major source of vibration.

    Apologies for the error.

    - Leigh
    Leigh,

    No apologies needed Phase has not really placed that many of these bodies yet, so a lot is yet to be determined. I always seemed to have vibration issues with my DF body especially with the camera in the vertical. From what I have heard from others, the shutter is much softer when fired in the XF, and the mirror is dampened a bit.

    I am not even sure if the accelometer feature to check for the vibrations is enabled at this time, and if it works with the IQ1, IQ2, and IQ3 backs or only the IQ3. From what I can tell, it seems the IQ2 backs will eventually get most of the "current" new features of the XF, besides the histogram display (not sure why on that) and the power share (2 more pins on the back). But as Phase adds new features, I am not sure if they will include the IQ2 backs.

    Paul

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Oamkumar View Post
    This is a very nice discussion and very informative. Any information about the quality of Schneider Kreuznach 120mm TS f/5.6 lens compared to mamiya 120mm f4 macro D MF lens. They advertise the tech camera image quality with this lens. Is that true?
    It's true of the SK 120 since the lens is a slight redesign of the SK APO-Digitar ASPH 120 VC lens in a fancy self-contained bellows.

    I haven't shot the SK at all, and have only used the older Mamiya A 120 Macro (which I still own and love), but I will say that if you have the time to put the movements to use, a PC lens or tech camera can provide a more rewarding result when close focusing than a dedicated macro, even if it weren't optically superior.

    You don't have to spend $5k to get tech-camera quality out of a camera with a Mamiya 645 mount, though. You could pick up the Mamiya auto-bellows N, which gives you rise, fall, tilt and swing on the front standard with a rotating mount on the rear, and then rig up a lens board by drilling a hole in a Mamiya body cap (a little bigger than 35mm diameter for Copal 0, and I think it's 42mm for Copal 1). That may be a bit long to get to infinity with a 120, but 135 to 180 should be the sweet spot for infinity to relatively high magnification ratios, and there are plenty of excellent view camera lenses in that range that won't brake the bank. The bellows will run you between $500 and 600 new, and then it's whatever you want to spend on a lens or lenses.
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by freaklikeme View Post
    (a little bigger than 35mm diameter for Copal 0, and I think it's 42mm for Copal 1)
    Proper diameers for Copal shutter mounting holes are:
    #0 34.8mm
    #1 41.8mm
    #3 64.2mm

    as given in the Copal shutter datasheets.

    The actual diameter of the mounting flange is 0.2mm smaller than those values for all shutters.

    There is no #2 Copal shutter.

    - Leigh
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Leigh View Post
    Proper diameers for Copal shutter mounting holes are:
    #0 34.8mm
    #1 41.8mm
    #3 64.2mm

    as given in the Copal shutter datasheets.

    The actual diameter of the mounting flange is 0.2mm smaller than those values for all shutters.

    There is no #2 Copal shutter.

    - Leigh
    Thanks for the correction, Leigh.

    I didn't mention the 3 because I don't think there's enough usable area on a Mamiya body cap to support it. Also most of the lenses I've seen mounted in 3's have focal lengths that are too long for the bellows without an extension. I also should've mentioned that the Mamyia-branded caps aren't well-suited for the purpose because of the thick ridges on the edge. It's better to look on eBay for the flat generics.

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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by freaklikeme View Post
    I didn't mention the 3 because I don't think there's enough usable area on a Mamiya body cap to support it.
    I included the #3 just to make the table complete, in case somebody searches for such info in the future.

    There are certainly LF shooters here, and probably others with lensboards large enough for the #3.

    - Leigh
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    Re: Comparison of MF lenses

    Thanks for the replies..
    Mamiya auto-bellows N is a great option I think. Its very cheap and good. I do not have to get a sinar for my kind of work.
    As Doug's advice I do not think, I can use the 120mm TS lens comfortably. So I do not want to take risk.

    regards,
    Oamkumar

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