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Thread: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

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    Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Hello All, this is my first post so hopefully I don't make a fool of myself. I recently purchased a second hand Mamiya Leaf Credo 40 Kit. I have been playing around a bit with the camera and it seems to me that the AWB of the Credo is absolutely horrendous. I have reset the camera to it's factory default to make sure there was not some strange setting that had been tweaked. Maybe there is something that I am overlooking.

    I am going to attach a couple images to show you how the images are coming straight out of the camera in terms of color (not the best photos, just showing the color). These were shot in almost direct sun coming through a window and the leaves were outside shot through the window. Everything seems to be going a blue/cyan color. The 3rd image is a bit better, but slight adjustments in Lightroom made the image look 50x better in terms of color.

    Is this normal? Might my Camera be having an issue? It is second hand after all.

    Thanks all!

    Chase

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Yes, that's normal. Auto WB is not very good.

    I would suggest selecting a specific white balance instead.

    Also as a new Credo owner you should take some time to run some files through both Capture One and LightRoom. You may be surprised the quality of results that come from co-developed hardware/software.

    Congratulations on your new back.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Best for me is a individual wb before shooting with a gray card.

    And yes; it's really not fine. But same with Phase One. And you should see what your back would do if you shoot with a technical camera.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    I have always just picked the "daylight" setting. Seems to give the best start for WB in post. However Phase back's and WB is very basic compared to a DSLR, at least IMO. Never have understood this.

    I try to remember to bring a color checker with me and make at least on shot with it. However I also have a "feel" for where I want the WB to be in C1, as Phase seems to default to 5000K for the starting point.

    It's just like C1 always defaulting to "flash" as the WB when you open a file, never have understood that either, I guess Phase One seems to think most of the backs are still used "in studio".

    My point being, WB on a Phase Back is wide open, and there really is no easy way to dial it in at capture, plus C1 will always default to flash even if the camera was set to auto or daylight. There is a way to set the defaults for your camera so this won't happen, but it's still a bit primitive to me.

    Paul

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    My IQ180 does this all the time.....some frames are just total blue. Sometimes, I'd shoot a set where one or two are way off.

    Set to daylight and it is better, but for critical work, always shoot a grey card.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    I always select a specific WB with my p24+. Phase just does not have good AWB.

    Also, always process your files through Capture One. Phase/Leaf has no intension of working with Adobe to get their profiles working well with Lightroom or Photoshop. I would never open my Phase RAW in Photoshop--I have done it and it is horrible. I will process the opened file in Photoshop later, though. If you go the Phase/Leaf route, you are just going to have to use c1. And simply set the WB there.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Thanks for all the replies guys! Coming from Canon & Sony, whos WB seem to be stellar, this is a bit of a change. I have a rather large shoot tomorrow so I will be sure to pick up a grey card and color checker. I've never used them in my work before, but as everyone says it seems MF is a different ball game in terms taking time and doing everything right. I guess I'll get even better images because of it!

    I don't know if I should start a different thread, but another thing I have noticed (and its not a big deal) is that when I turn off my DF+ the digital back turns off as well (as intended). However when I turn on the camera it seems the back is not getting the signal and has to be turned on manually. I updated the firmware to the most current and it seems since the update the back has not been responding. Any info on how to sort this out?

    Thanks again all, you've been a big help already!

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    The back should turn on when the body does. Contact your dealer and they will help you resolve the issue. You updated the firmware of the back but maybe you did not upgrade the firmware in the body.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post

    It's just like C1 always defaulting to "flash" as the WB when you open a file, never have understood that either, I guess Phase One seems to think most of the backs are still used "in studio".
    ....

    Paul
    Btw Paul, you can override the default for the ICC profile from Flash to something else. This was added to C1 a while ago - it's on the ICC section menu IIRC.

    To the OP, yes auto WB sucks on any of the medium format backs in my experience. I just leave it on daylight or shoot a custom WB and then adjust in C1 from raw later. Don't bother with the adobe raw converters with Leaf/Phase files if you want ultimate quality and colour fidelity ... C1 everytime.
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Chase,

    In case you did not purchase from a dealer, the DF+ body firmware can only be updated with the V Grip as there is USB port in the grip. Unlike other integrated systems, the DF+ can't be updated from the MF back and needs an input device, in this case the V grip. This issue will more than likely be resolved with the "new" Phase One camera body when it's announced.

    If you purchased from a dealer, they should have a V grip and can install the upgrade, however they should have upgraded the DF+ before shipping to you. If you purchased from a third party, maybe a dealer in your area can assist you for a fee.

    In the US, the two major dealers for Phase One are Capture Integration, based in Atlanta, and Digital Transitions based in NY. You cannot really contact Phase One directly in the US, all support is done initially from the dealer channel.

    BTW, many of the more modern Phase One/Mamiya lenses also have firmware that have to be updated through the DF+/V grip. Lenses that come to mind are the LS28mm, and non LS28mm, the 240mm, and the 75-150mm LS and non LS.

    Paul

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Btw Paul, you can override the default for the ICC profile from Flash to something else. This was added to C1 a while ago - it's on the ICC section menu IIRC.

    To the OP, yes auto WB sucks on any of the medium format backs in my experience. I just leave it on daylight or shoot a custom WB and then adjust in C1 from raw later. Don't bother with the adobe raw converters with Leaf/Phase files if you want ultimate quality and colour fidelity ... C1 everytime.
    Graham:

    Thanks I did forget that feature in C1 7 and above. I have used it before but it seems to forget after a while on my PC and goes back to flash.

    Paul

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Thanks for all the responses guys. I had my shoot this past weekend and actually used an expodisk for WB and loaded the files into C1. I must say these images do look pretty awesome! I still am not completely familiar with C1 but it seems pretty simple to learn and understand. Wondering if I should try using it for my canon/sony files but not sure if its worth the $300 over using Lightroom.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    I can't speak to the Canon differences but certainly I've found rendering of all of my Nikon files, Sony files, Fuji files and all MFDBs (except my CFV-16 ) have been far better in C1 than the dual illuminant based Adobe profiles in ACR/LR.

    If colour & detail matter then I'd say try it. For the rest of the workflow certainly LR has many advantages and there are plenty of folks who have a mixed C1 raw processing / LR index and post processing base scheme for managing their images.

    In my case with my Nikon files it was like getting a $2000 camera upgrade just by processing old NEF files. You might want to try and contrast some of your older and current images through C1 as you'll be surprised at how good it is with those non Phase/Leaf files.

    My $0.02 ...
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sideeffects View Post
    Thanks for all the responses guys. I had my shoot this past weekend and actually used an expodisk for WB and loaded the files into C1. I must say these images do look pretty awesome! I still am not completely familiar with C1 but it seems pretty simple to learn and understand. Wondering if I should try using it for my canon/sony files but not sure if its worth the $300 over using Lightroom.
    You should try it for your Canon/Sony files. You'll be surprised. Like a drug dealer they let you try it for free for a reason . If you're feeling a bit overwhelmed with the newness remember that you didn't learn Photoshop in a day. Consider the free P1 Youtube videos or our paid C1 classes.

    Everyone has to make their own determination on what things are worth, but to me software is a multiplier. That is, if you have terrible software then it greatly reduces the productivity, quality, and enjoyment of every piece of gear you own; if you have great software it greatly increases the productivity, quality, and enjoyment of every piece of gear you own.

    Many photographers spend 25-75% of their total photographic time in software; a small increase in spending there (in plugins that automate things you do over and over, or software that gets you to your end goals faster, or that allows you to produce work that you otherwise couldn't) often has a very very high ROI.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Seeing as this is a photography forum, I thought I would throw up an image from the shoot. I am actually extremely impressed with both MF Digital and C1... (Not sure which is coming more into play here) This was my first ever experience with MF aside from some old Film Cameras. Literally just pushed 2 sliders and this is the rendition from C1. Can't wait to see how these will look after a full edit!

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sideeffects View Post
    Seeing as this is a photography forum, I thought I would throw up an image from the shoot. I am actually extremely impressed with both MF Digital and C1... (Not sure which is coming more into play here) This was my first ever experience with MF aside from some old Film Cameras. Literally just pushed 2 sliders and this is the rendition from C1. Can't wait to see how these will look after a full edit!
    Beautiful shots!

    There is no practical meaning in trying to suss out one from the other.

    I wrote an article CMOS Fully Realized that tangentially touches on the R+D workflow at Phase One. The hardware and software teams work together on any new product, from early in the prototyping stage all the way until quarters after the product is released.

    It's one big happy development family, and, IMO, it really pays off in areas like skin tone and grain rendering; two areas where it is easier for hardware+software teams to work together on an end aesthetic rather than working independently.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    I shoot a Credo 60 tethered to a laptop running C1. However, I process my images in Lightroom. Each one has to decide for themselves the best tools to use for their imaging needs. Having said that, I simply have not realised this supposed superiority of image processing through C1 compared to LR.

    Background, I used C1 in production back in 2002 for a couple of years until Lightroom came out in
    '05 I believe. Phase One was always tardy with upgrades to support new cameras, so I switched. From the beginning I found LR's program logic to be much more intuitive to me and it's workflow superior. However, those earlier versions weren't as fast as C1. It wasn't until Phase One dramatically changed C1 with version 3 I believe did LR "catch up" in speed (actually LR didn't catch up but C1 slowed down). Anyway, over the years I kept tabs on C1 and kept upgrading to the latest versions even though I didn't use it in production.

    Two years ago I bought my first MFD system. A 645DF and a Mamiya RZ67 Pro IID. I can shoot my back with either system. However, I discovered that my eyesight simply is not good enough for consistently accurate manual focus, so I have up shooting the RZ. For the past 2 years I've consistently forced myself at times to use C1 to process my Leaf images, but I always defaulted back to LR because the work flow remains better IMO, it operates faster on my oldish desktop computer (I immediately see changes as I manipulate sliders in LR unlike in C1 which can take a second to update my display), and I just don't see any IQ superiority differences. None. Often times I process a shoot in both C1 and LR simultaneously side by side. The resulting images can look different, but to say one is superior to the other I haven't found to be true. They both produce outstanding results.

    Like I previously stated, each one has to decide for themselves. I want to use C1 because estheticly, I like the way the UI looks better (very shallow reason I know). But I can achieve a similar great result with LR and the work flow is better and it's faster. So until something in that equation changes, I'll continue driving LR. Just wanted to post a countering viewpoint on this C1 vs LR issue.

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    What is the WB workflow with regard to landscape photography, where use of a grey card and subsequent removal of so-called 'golden hour' light is anything but desireable? Forget about a grey card, select 'daylight' WB and adjust to taste in post?

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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Yes, that's what I do. The images especially from a tech camera will look terrible, way to warm (Lcc plate shots will most likely be yellow). But I just stay on daylight and go from there.

    I was hoping with the new XF and at least the IQ350 Phase might be working on a better solution, something more akin to how most DSLR cameras do it.

    I like to say the raw file from a CCD is really raw, and the WB is the first thing I will try to resolve. In my experience, Phase loads everything from the 260 at 5000K, by default if you set the camera to daylight. You can try taking a custom WB off say a colorchecker. This actually works very well on the IQ backs you can use the great LCD on the back. It takes a bit of getting used to but can be done.

    However after doing that for a while, I just went back to 'daylight" and worked it up in C1. Most times on a shoot where I am in the same light or fading light I just create a C1 style for that afternoon and apply it to all the images as it's a great place to get started.

    The files do allow for a huge amount of leverage in WB, one aspect of the CCD raw I do love. And now with C1 allowing local WB adjustments with the Local adjustment layers you have excellent tools set to fine tune an image and these can overlap, unlike color selection layers.

    Paul
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    Re: Mamiya Leaf Credo Auto WB... Horrible?

    Paul,

    The files do allow for a huge amount of leverage in WB...
    If memory serves, changing WB value has no adverse effect on RAW data.

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