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Sinar lenses are rebadged Rodenstock?

Steve Hendrix

Well-known member
Also - my historical impression has been that a Sinaron lens (vs an off the shelf Rodenstock) benefits from more extensive quality control (good ones stay in, not so good ones go back). I'm sure most of them are good - but the process likely catches some of the versions that might appear ok, when in fact one side is out more than the other, for example. It's difficult for an end user, with a single copy to assess this, especially the lenses that are in the grey area between good/not good. In this case, relativity is an equalizer.


Steve Hendrix
CI
 
Also - my historical impression has been that a Sinaron lens (vs an off the shelf Rodenstock) benefits from more extensive quality control (good ones stay in, not so good ones go back). I'm sure most of them are good - but the process likely catches some of the versions that might appear ok, when in fact one side is out more than the other, for example. It's difficult for an end user, with a single copy to assess this, especially the lenses that are in the grey area between good/not good. In this case, relativity is an equalizer.


Steve Hendrix
CI
Thanks for checking out the mount and for this info, Steve. It makes sense that any company purchasing a rebrand would add their own layer of quality control. While it probably won't mean as much on my used copy, at least I'll know it probably started out in perfect shape. ;)
 

scho

Well-known member
One more question, Carl. Can you get to infinity on the WA bellows with the 55? If so, have you checked to see what your MFD is with the lens?
Yes, the 55 will also focus to infinity on the ACB-310. I did not check the MFD.
 
So it arrived and it's a green-banded Grandagon. The junker Caltar II N 65/4.5 I bought for the doner shutter arrived as well, and I'm confident I could make this solution work with a little shimming between the rear element of the 55 and the shutter.

However, the "junker" Caltar is actually beautiful. The Sinar's in good optical condition, but the Caltar is flawless. I'll find out tomorrow if the 65 shoots as good as it looks, but if it does, should I expect a big performance delta between it and the 55 or is it just going to be a slightly wider angle of view?
 
It was closer than I actually thought it would be, and both are excellent lenses. Even at larger apertures, both were impressive. The 55's just a bit too long to be my widest lens and I prefer the 65's focal length for closer stuff. So I'm keeping the bargain 65 and sending the good-deal-with-some-work 55 back. I think I'll take this as an excuse to try out a Schneider 47 XL, which is apparently the widest lens that will achieve infinity with the standard bellows and Sony rotating mount. If I can make that work, then I'll be set for the summer.

Here's one of the test shots with the 65 wide open. I haven't quite gotten the sharpening routine down. I started with the same thing I use for the Mamiya 120/4 macro and modified a bit until I got some detail in the leaves, but there's room for improvement there.

a7_Actus_Rode65_GrowingThrough by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr
 
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scho

Well-known member
It was closer than I actually thought it would be, and both are excellent lenses. Even at larger apertures, both were impressive. The 55's just a bit too long to be my widest lens and I prefer the 65's focal length for closer stuff. So I'm keeping the bargain 65 and sending the good-deal-with-some-work 55 back. I think I'll take this as an excuse to try out a Schneider 47 XL, which is apparently the widest lens that will achieve infinity with the standard bellows and Sony rotating mount. If I can make that work, then I'll be set for the summer.

Here's one of the test shots with the 65 wide open. I haven't quite gotten the sharpening routine down. I started with the same thing I use for the Mamiya 120/4 macro and modified a bit until I got some detail in the leaves, but there's room for improvement there.
A couple of comparison shots using the 45 and 55 mm Rodenstock APO Grandagons on the Actus with A7r. Click for full size to compare sharpness across frame and evaluate relative FOV of each lens. I prefer the performance of the 55 over the 45, but I am also looking at replacing the 45 (with the required ACB-310 rear standard/bellows) and the 55 for the 47 Schneider, if it can do as well as the 55. A sample 2 shot stitch with the 55 on the Actus is also below.

45mm Grandagon


55mm Grandagon


55mm Grandagon, 2 shot stitch (half size original)

 
Thanks for posting those, Carl. It seems like the 45, 55, and 65 are all fairly consistent, so it does come down to choosing your focal length.

After remembering what I'd seen on Steve's blog post for the Actus last year (https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus/) I decided to skip the SA XL, since I'm not sure I wouldn't end up with some clearance issues with the diameter of the rear element. I also didn't want to pop for a new APO-Digitar without knowing that using hyper focal distances instead of straight infinity will allow for easier movement on the rear standard. KEH had an SA MC that has the same specs as the APO-Digitar so far as size and flange distance, so it seemed like a good test candidate. I'll let you know how it works out after it arrives.
 

scho

Well-known member
Thanks for posting those, Carl. It seems like the 45, 55, and 65 are all fairly consistent, so it does come down to choosing your focal length.

After remembering what I'd seen on Steve's blog post for the Actus last year (https://captureintegration.com/first-look-cambo-actus/) I decided to skip the SA XL, since I'm not sure I wouldn't end up with some clearance issues with the diameter of the rear element. I also didn't want to pop for a new APO-Digitar without knowing that using hyper focal distances instead of straight infinity will allow for easier movement on the rear standard. KEH had an SA MC that has the same specs as the APO-Digitar so far as size and flange distance, so it seemed like a good test candidate. I'll let you know how it works out after it arrives.
Yes, I forgot about the 47mm rear element issues that Steve pointed out in his blog post. I'll just hold for now with my Grandagons and see how your SA MC works out.
 
Well, Carl, I'm sorry to report that I don't think the 47 is the answer if you want much movement at infinity on the standard bellows. You get a couple of mm in any direction and that's it.

I didn't have much time to play with it, but for this first sample, I set the aperture to f/11, set the focus so the rear element had just enough clearance, pointed it at the edge of the building and walked backward until the edge of "usable" focus was right at the edge of the building. I'm terrible at estimating distances, but I'd say it's 150-200m. I had the camera tilted up slightly, so there were some very slight adjustments on the front standard. I also had the camera rotated 90 degrees, so the a7 was able to reach the maximum 38mm edge and then took a 6 shot pano with a hefty amount of overlap.

So, aside from the terrible framing and the dramatic shift in lighting mid-shoot, I'm very encouraged by what I see. Good center sharpness. I think I can pick up some improvement on the top edge with Kolari thin-filter mod (I'm sending the a7 off tomorrow). The fairly serious vignetting behaves as a grad ND in this case. There's a little color shift, though the changing light exaggerated the effect. Click through for a larger size.

a7_Actus_Schn47_Test2 by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr

So then I moved in closer (7m or so) and normalized the Actus. I shot a six shot 63x64 pano and it looks good. Very manageable color shift. The vignetting is making me think that, if I keep it, a center filter might be a good idea. So then I gave it some (unnecessary) swing, up to the first mark. The color shift changed dramatically, significantly altering the amount of usable frame without correction.

a7_Actus_Schn47_Test1 by Bradley Clemens, on Flickr

Something to consider if you use tilt and swing much. I can't imagine that it would be easy to create a correction profile for every given situation, because focus distance and the amount of movement change the behavior quite a bit. My uses for those movements are fairly limited on a lens this wide, so I can get by with a few profiles for my typical use-cases.

I can't say I'm overwhelmed with the lens, since making it as useful as I want it to be will require the wide rear standard and likely the single most expensive filter I will have ever purchased, but there are four things that make me want to keep it. 1. Where it's good, it's very, very good. 2. Low distortion. 3. Very well color corrected. 4. Feakin' tiny. It's like a fifth the size and weight of the Hassy 40. So I'll wait until the a7 comes back from Kolari and see if that makes a difference.
 

RodK

Active member
Thanks for the info, Ken. I also think I'll be okay with the 55. If it works out well, though, then the next lens will probably be the APO-Grandagon 35, but I plan to have the a7 moded with the Kolari thin cover glass before that. That won't do anything for the color cast, which will still have to be profiled out in LR or CornerFix, but it should stop any smearing. The people who have had it done report fantastic improvements with oblique rays from RF lenses, so the response should be the same with an UW tech lens.
The 35mm from Rodenstock is not nearly the lens that the 55mm is. It exhibits a large amount of focus shift that does not get hidden until F11+
So it is not critically sharp across the image circle until stopped down to that F11 stop. This also makes the lens a problem for 80mp backs, which often exhibit a high degree of diffraction when wide to standard focal length lenses, are stopped down past F8.5. Diffraction shows up much quicker the smaller the pixel pitch. 60mp and 40mp backs are around 6 microns, while an 80mp back is currently at 5.2 microns. (By the way the D800-810 Nikon uses a pixel of 4.8microns.)
That, in my opinion, is why Rodenstock went into the 32mm Apo-Digaron HR W, which is a true digital design. It not only has far less of the focus shift problem, it has a large image circle, and can handle the smaller pixel pitch.
The 35mm Apo-Digaron was a derivative of the 35mm Apo-Grandagon.
As such it worked with backs of 22-40mp OK, but when backs got into the 56-80mp range it really was not up to it.

As far as the 55mm goes, it is excellent, and even the 55mm Apo-Grandagon, its predecessor, is a good digital performer.

The 60mm from Schneider blows both 55mm's away, but more dollars...

Be well,
Rod
 
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The 35mm from Rodenstock is not nearly the lens that the 55mm is. It exhibits a large amount of focus shift that does not get hidden until F11+
So it is not critically sharp across the image circle until stopped down to that F11 stop. This also makes the lens a problem for 80mp backs, which often exhibit a high degree of diffraction when wide to standard focal length lenses, are stopped down past F8.5. Diffraction shows up much quicker the smaller the pixel pitch. 60mp and 40mp backs are around 6 microns, while an 80mp back is currently at 5.2 microns. (By the way the D800-810 Nikon uses a pixel of 4.8microns.)
That, in my opinion, is why Rodenstock went into the 32mm Apo-Digaron HR W, which is a true digital design. It not only has far less of the focus shift problem, it has a large image circle, and can handle the smaller pixel pitch.
The 35mm Apo-Digaron was a derivative of the 35mm Apo-Grandagon.
As such it worked with backs of 22-40mp OK, but when backs got into the 56-80mp range it really was not up to it.

As far as the 55mm goes, it is excellent, and even the 55mm Apo-Grandagon, its predecessor, is a good digital performer.

The 60mm from Schneider blows both 55mm's away, but more dollars...

Be well,
Rod
Thank you so much for the info, Rod. I have pretty much eliminated the Grandagon 35 due to it's short flange distance and relatively long rear group. I think I'd have clearance issues even with the wide Sony rear standard. After some research, I'm thinking the Schneider 38 XL is probably the widest analog lens I'll be able to use with movement and, from what I've read, it's also one of the least problematic lenses so far as color shift and smearing go thanks to its 50mm+ flange distance.

The pixel pitch problem is one the reasons I stuck with the a7 for this solution. It's pitch is roughly the same as a 40mp 33x44 sensor and, once the sensor stack is thinned down, I'm hoping it'll perform like a smaller version of the Kodak sensor in the 645D/H4D-40 (but with workable live view and better high ISO performance). The smaller size should help, too, since I can't dig as far into the edges and corners of the image circle.

The modern digital lenses look great, particularly the Digitar 60 XL, but I can't say I've been terribly disappointed with any of the analog lenses. Even with being on the fence about the 47, my talent and desires have a good bit to go before I hit the lens' limitations. So for now I think it's a good idea for me to content myself with the leftovers.
 
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