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Thread: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

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    Senior Member alajuela's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    For the simple reason that Canon's business model isn't built around having to provide significant margins to a totally unnecessary dealer network.

    And dealers are not doing you a favour by offering you a trade-in value of $2K on a DF+. You can be sure of that.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    It is a shame Gerald that you feel that way and paint all dealers with the same brush, I deal with Capture Integration, and am a Happy Camper, they certainly have gone to bat for me and they have allot more pull and credibility with Phase than I do.

    I agree that 2K is not going to be an incentive, but I assume this is Phase thing and not a dealer issue. Talk to your dealer, if they don't help, get a new one. In short I feel my dealer earns their money.

    I cant think of many manufacturers that go direct to the public and anyways, would be a high maintenance bushiness model, and doubtful it would lower the cost.

    Thanks

    Phil
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by danlindberg View Post

    I do wish Phase best of luck, I think they have a great cam there that could serve many for years to come. Just not for me....
    It really seems to be targeting onto applications where one would normally use a DSLR promising (much) better performance doesn't it? From that POV, its marketing positon is the same as with the DF+ having the additional advantage of offering a WLF and improved operation/ergnomics....

    As H5X will undeniably be the major competition for plarform, P1 seems to have balanced the camera as to serve their later or new customers of the backs, while H5X offers compatibility with the previous customers and third party makers and even film users having only IQ3 users out of the equation.

  3. #153
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by alajuela View Post
    It is a shame Gerald that you feel that way and paint all dealers with the same brush, I deal with Capture Integration, and am a Happy Camper, they certainly have gone to bat for me and they have allot more pull and credibility with Phase than I do.

    I agree that 2K is not going to be an incentive, but I assume this is Phase thing and not a dealer issue. Talk to your dealer, if they don't help, get a new one. In short I feel my dealer earns their money.

    I cant think of many manufacturers that go direct to the public and anyways, would be a high maintenance bushiness model, and doubtful it would lower the cost.

    Thanks

    Phil
    Hi Phil -

    It's the business model that I don't agree with here, not the performance of any particular dealer. Clearly any dealer that has been in business for a number of years can only be successful if they are keeping their customers happy.

    Phase One is sold by a completely different business model to "regular" brands such as Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sony, et al. Products from those companies are sold in an internationally transparently open and competitive market that benefits the consumer. I can go online right now and buy products from any of those manufacturers from practically anywhere on the planet.

    At the end of the day, it's just gear in boxes. Shift boxes with reliable contents. That's all that's needed. I'm not talking about direct from manufacturer, just dealerships selling boxes to the consumer filled with reliable products at a reasonable margin and with decent warranties, and without any FUD.

    Phase One gear is way, way simpler to learn, understand & operate than any of the high-end offerings from the other brands I have mentioned. Why? Because functionality-wise, it is extremely basic. Compare functionality and manuals for the DF+ (or XF when it becomes available) to those for the 1Dx.

    To reiterate. There is nothing special whatsoever about Phase One gear that requires a complex and costly support structure selling products to consumers through what are more akin to franchise partnerships than manufacturer>distributor>retailer.

    I have worked (in retail) on both the franchisor and franchisee side of the business (same brand on each), and also built financial planning systems for both sides of the relationship. I know how these business models work and the additional margins that have to be added in to support such a structure.

    Why should you need a dealer to "go to bat" for you with the manufacturer? If there's a problem with any equipment (not of your doing) and it's under warranty, then it gets fixed. That's the law.

    I have 6x 1Dx's at work. One of them died after about 6 months of use. I didn't have to wait months for it to be fixed whilst using a loaner camera. It got replaced. Immediately. No one had to go into bat on my behalf with Canon.

    Why should Phase One equipment be any different? I had an issue with my IQ180. The calibration seemed to have drifted out somewhat over the time since I owned it (I bought it second hand sight-unseen from half way across the world without ever having met the guy who sold it to me. Saving myself a ton of money in the process.). It was still under warranty. It went to my local dealer, who forwarded it on to Phase One. Who fixed it, and returned it to me via the dealer.

    The dealer was nothing other than a post box. Apart from when buying stuff, it's the only thing I've ever needed from them.

    The XF is a great looking camera. We will be getting one for work without any doubt whatsoever. My local Phase One dealer is fantastic. Great guys. I am happy to buy gear from them (not only Phase One).

    But at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned they are just shifting boxes. That's all I need them for. Why - if I want Phase One products - should I have to pay additional margins to support a business model that provides no benefit to me whatsoever?

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hi Phil -

    Phase One gear is way, way simpler to learn, understand & operate than any of the high-end offerings from the other brands I have mentioned. Why? Because functionality-wise, it is extremely basic. Compare functionality and manuals for the DF+ (or XF when it becomes available) to those for the 1Dx.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.
    Yeah... but that's not exclusive to Phase One, It is rather a traditional characteristic of all MF, after all Leica is even simpler and Contax 645 is still considered the simplest of all, yet offering all the functionality one needs...

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    To kinda piggyback on to what Gerald wrote, I don't like the pricing on Phase One backs. But they are best in class so, oh well. If you want to get onto the game you have to pony up. I don't like the pricing on SK LS lenses. Well, they do resolve the super high resolution backs allowing for awesome detail. So of you want to play you've got to pony up. Now here is where I have the problem. The camera bodies. The DF/DF+ brought nothing to the camera body party. Not only were they not best in class, they weren't even competitive with cheap DSLR camera bodies, let alone the best in class DSLR bodies. Yet, Phase never moved on their $6k price. And I'm totally with whoever wrote about rejecting the "who buys a body by itself" argument. Sorry, that's lame. Price the thing at $1500 and be done with it. If the XF is heavily discounted when bought with a back, just give your current customers who only need a functional body a real price instead of an inflated price. The IQ3 looks great, but I don't need a new back. What I need is a functional body that I can actually use in all my studio applications. Requiring another $8k or $6k (for a product that will still fall short of your average $1000 DSLR body in some key areas) to make that happen is taking advantage of your customer base IMO. Paying a premium for the absolute best is how the cookie crumbles. So for backs and lenses we just suck it up. But Phase One camera bodies are not that. And only citing Hasselblad selective comparing. When comparing image quality you use the entire market. So use the entire market when comparing camera bodies.

    When I decided to buy into a Phase system, I thought I'd pay a high price to enter, but after that things would be reasonable via upgrades. But I'm discovering I was wrong. I'm more than disappointed by this revelation.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Doug, you mentioned letting Phase know what we'd like to see in the XF. I'd assuming their reps read this forum, but what's the best official avenue for feedback to them?

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    To kinda piggyback on to what Gerald wrote, I don't like the pricing on Phase One backs. But they are best in class so, oh well. If you want to get onto the game you have to pony up. I don't like the pricing on SK LS lenses. Well, they do resolve the super high resolution backs allowing for awesome detail. So of you want to play you've got to pony up. Now here is where I have the problem. The camera bodies. The DF/DF+ brought nothing to the camera body party. Not only were they not best in class, they weren't even competitive with cheap DSLR camera bodies, let alone the best in class DSLR bodies. Yet, Phase never moved on their $6k price. And I'm totally with whoever wrote about rejecting the "who buys a body by itself" argument. Sorry, that's lame. Price the thing at $1500 and be done with it. If the XF is heavily discounted when bought with a back, just give your current customers who only need a functional body a real price instead of an inflated price. The IQ3 looks great, but I don't need a new back. What I need is a functional body that I can actually use in all my studio applications. Requiring another $8k or $6k (for a product that will still fall short of your average $1000 DSLR body in some key areas) to make that happen is taking advantage of your customer base IMO. Paying a premium for the absolute best is how the cookie crumbles. So for backs and lenses we just suck it up. But Phase One camera bodies are not that. And only citing Hasselblad selective comparing. When comparing image quality you use the entire market. So use the entire market when comparing camera bodies.

    When I decided to buy into a Phase system, I thought I'd pay a high price to enter, but after that things would be reasonable via upgrades. But I'm discovering I was wrong. I'm more than disappointed by this revelation.
    I remember seeing an interview in Mexico with M.R. in video some years back... they promised to keep the system "open" there... didn't they? They even criticized Hasselblad (heavily) for closing theirs at those days.... Now it turns the other way around... XF is the "closed" system and H5X by far the most "open" platform....

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Just curious, what do you think the XF would bring you, that the Cambo doesn't, in landscape applications ? I am also a tech cam user (Arca Swiss Factum), and don't have a Phase one SLR at all.
    The only thing I think the SLR would be good for, is long lenses. The long SLR lenses are as good (almost ?) as on the tech cam, but perhaps a bit more easy to handle, and framing is easier.
    Sometimes it also feel a bit a pity that I cannot use my back on an autofocus body (I use my Canon system for those applications).
    Still, for me, the XF is overkill. But perhaps there will be "good deals" on DF or DF+ bodies now...
    You hit on some of the answers. When I went to the Cambo it wasn't to eliminate the Phase body/lenses setup, but to fill the wide-angle gap. I enjoy both ways of shooting so sometimes I enjoy the quicker workflow and autofocus, w/o the Leica Disto, LCC, along with being able to use the longer lenses. Weight is often the major consideration of which gear I'll use. If the hiking is long and it's hot, no way I'm bringing the Phase body and 3 lenses plus the Cambo to cover wide. Tried that - not fun.

    Great to have choice, and the XF looks like a more modern body that may just work better.
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I think for most folks here that have put up with the PoS called the DF for 5,6 or even more years, with the promise of a new body coming soon, an 8K price is tough to swallow. In most cases, the camera is a DF and not part of the upgrade offer. It does appear based on what Doug has written that DT is offering upgrades on the DF as well, but this appears to be a DT exclusive.

    My main concern with the XF would be that it is another stop gap camera. FF CMOS will is certainly on the 12-24month horizon, and with that, I'd think a radically new camera design is possible. Both IQ2 and IQ3 backs have had marginally incremental capabilities and with the exception of LE and CMOS in the IQx50 series, no real changes in image quality. So again, stop-gap releases to keep product life cycles in check.

    The 80MP Dalsa sensor showed up in the Aptus 12 five years ago. That is a long time for tech in this area, and that really has not been anything that comes near it so far, so I think we will see something that is a step-change soon and my concern would be buying into another bandaid.
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Just curious, what do you think the XF would bring you, that the Cambo doesn't, in landscape applications?
    Faster. Can hand-hold!
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    I think for most folks here that have put up with the PoS called the DF for 5,6 or even more years,....
    I think that calling the DF body a "PoS" is a bit harsh. I come from a time of using the original Mamiya 645AF and 645AFD (film), and even used the original 645AFD with a MFDB.

    You just need to lower your standards.

    The significant generational improvements did not appear until the Phase AF and finally the DF body. Using the rechargeable Li-ion battery pack and making sure that both DF firmware and MFDB firmware are compatible (up to date), the DF is a good platform, not the best, but it works.

    I really don't need all the bells and whistles that the XF offers, except the basics, such as much improved AF performance. The XF will stay closer to studio and no way do I plan on lugging that body around on landscape excursions. Cambo all the way!

    The bottom line is if you want all that medium format digital has to offer, you're gonna pay. Plain and simple, it costs money to be in Dante's world. And at the same time, it's all part of business. If I get a $2K trade-in, I'm happy. I think.

    ken

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by mediumcool View Post
    Faster. Can hand-hold!
    Same applies to other (older) MF and most DSLRs these days...

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    It's the business model that I don't agree with here, not the performance of any particular dealer.
    (...)
    To reiterate. There is nothing special whatsoever about Phase One gear that requires a complex and costly support structure selling products to consumers through what are more akin to franchise partnerships than manufacturer>distributor>retailer.

    I have worked (in retail) on both the franchisor and franchisee side of the business (same brand on each), and also built financial planning systems for both sides of the relationship. I know how these business models work and the additional margins that have to be added in to support such a structure.

    Why should you need a dealer to "go to bat" for you with the manufacturer? If there's a problem with any equipment (not of your doing) and it's under warranty, then it gets fixed. That's the law.

    (...)

    But at the end of the day, as far as I'm concerned they are just shifting boxes. That's all I need them for. Why - if I want Phase One products - should I have to pay additional margins to support a business model that provides no benefit to me whatsoever?
    You are saying that MF dealers are only used for warranty repairs and that sales are simply shifting boxes. I don't think it is true for most of the intended customers. I believe that most of the customers require a very hight amount of pre-sales services: loaners and demo, re-sale of used equipment, maybe even some basic courses about the manufacturer's software. This kind of service can only be supported by the additional margins built into the franchise model. It is not because you do not need these services that the majority of the customers is in the same situation. Apparently, you are not Phase's core market, that's all.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    I think that calling the DF body a "PoS" is a bit harsh. I come from a time of using the original Mamiya 645AF and 645AFD (film), and even used the original 645AFD with a MFDB.

    You just need to lower your standards.

    The significant generational improvements did not appear until the Phase AF and finally the DF body. Using the rechargeable Li-ion battery pack and making sure that both DF firmware and MFDB firmware are compatible (up to date), the DF is a good platform, not the best, but it works.

    I really don't need all the bells and whistles that the XF offers, except the basics, such as much improved AF performance. The XF will stay closer to studio and no way do I plan on lugging that body around on landscape excursions. Cambo all the way!

    The bottom line is if you want all that medium format digital has to offer, you're gonna pay. Plain and simple, it costs money to be in Dante's world. And at the same time, it's all part of business. If I get a $2K trade-in, I'm happy. I think.

    ken
    +1

    Once you use a tech camera for landscapes there is no going back to lugging around a MF SLR for landscapes. The tech camera lenses are much more compact and easy to filter. Never mind the huge movement capability, image quality improvements and much lighter weight of the whole setup.

    That said the XF body looks amazing and the increased functionality is just superb. It is a camera platform for many years to come. Kudos to PhaseOne.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    .....the XF body looks amazing and the increased functionality is just superb. It is a camera platform for many years to come. Kudos to PhaseOne.
    It most certainly does... the problem with it is rather a marketing one than a functional one... it aims to exclude photographers that want a (current & future) "freedom of choice" for the progress of their photography... there is a threat to turn them into "factory financial victims" as far as their future plan is concerned... Same as Hasselblad tried in the past...

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    It most certainly does... the problem with it is rather a marketing one than a functional one... it aims to exclude photographers that want a (current & future) "freedom of choice" for the progress of their photography... there is a threat to turn them into "factory financial victims" as far as their future plan is concerned... Same as Hasselblad tried in the past...
    With Hasselblad it is very different. You basically needed to buy and use the back mated with that particular body. You could not buy an H back without a body (new). And of course Hasselblad does not make their backs with other mounts. With phase you can buy the XF separately and use it with any Phase/Mamiya mount IQ1xx/IQ2xx back ever made. New or used. (And of course with the new IQ3xx backs and soon any Leaf Credo back) and Phase is making the IQ backs in other mounts still. Even the new IQ380 is available in Hasselblad H and V mount.

    That is being pretty open IMHO.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    With Hasselblad it is very different. You basically needed to buy and use the back mated with that particular body. You could not buy an H back without a body (new).
    Actually, if you try it, you will find out that Hasselblad backs are not linked to a given body. I know that the official word is that the back is matched to a single body, but it appears to work nevertheless.

    You cannot buy a new back without a body, that is true.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I have to agree with Ken R, I don't think it's quite as conspiratory as some may claim, Phase does provide backs for other mounts, surely it would be down to other manufacturers to make their backs available in the Phase mount?

    The fact that P series backs won't work must be simply down to connectivity, they were designed and built in a very different technological era, the IQ series were obviously updated to reflect the future camera design and so work in a very different way. Sad for existing owners of these backs but there are still lots of options, they haven't just stopped working!

    The XF looks to be fantastic for one important reason, the fact that they have built it with the view to it being upgradable via firmware rather than the cycle of upgrade that most other manufacturers go in for, it looks like a body that will last for many generations of back.

    I am not in the market for one because personal preference sees me absolutely love the Leica S but if it was a body I wanted it would be a business expense and amortised over 3 years would be perfectly doable, if I wasn't expecting to earn enough money to cover it over that time I'd be in trouble!

    I know we are all passionate about our business/hobby/passion but sometimes the posts on here are pretty aggressive, I wonder if that's strictly necessary?

    Have a nice evening!

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Il commendatore once said: "A Ferrari is a red twelve-cylinder car".
    I guess nothing is sacred anymore.

    Eduardo


    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    I remember seeing an interview in Mexico with M.R. in video some years back... they promised to keep the system "open" there... didn't they? They even criticized Hasselblad (heavily) for closing theirs at those days.... Now it turns the other way around... XF is the "closed" system and H5X by far the most "open" platform....

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    With Hasselblad it is very different. You basically needed to buy and use the back mated with that particular body. You could not buy an H back without a body (new). And of course Hasselblad does not make their backs with other mounts. With phase you can buy the XF separately and use it with any Phase/Mamiya mount IQ1xx/IQ2xx back ever made. New or used. (And of course with the new IQ3xx backs and soon any Leaf Credo back) and Phase is making the IQ backs in other mounts still. Even the new IQ380 is available in Hasselblad H and V mount.

    That is being pretty open IMHO.
    Ι Βelieve you aren't well informed Ken... you can't use a P series back on the XF, neither you can use a third party back made for m645 mount... and I doubt you can use IQ3 with H or V bodies... (although I'm not sure...)... it is a closed system (as a platform) for IQ backs only... no multishot, no film, not an ability to retain an older back... all that H5X does offer.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    the H1 and H2 and i think the Hx will all take phase backs as will the V series (with a cable connection)

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    Wink Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Il commendatore once said: "A Ferrari is a red twelve-cylinder car".
    I guess nothing is sacred anymore.

    Eduardo
    Hi Eduardo... Enzo did say that once, and even decided to paint all the cars "Maranello red wine" for a couple of years if I remember well back in late 70s or very early 80s.... but again there are some differences with the subject we are discussing here...
    1. There is no Enzo with P1... 2. It is a camera offered in one color only... 3. It never had 12 cylinders in tradition... 4. It was never an Alfa Romeo once upon the time.... 5. It comes from a company that made no cameras up until recently... I'm sure you understand the humor behind all this...

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I must say that my DF (and the AFD before it) has been a good camera. Sure, it doesn't have the bells and whistles of modern DSLRs, but I never use those things anyway. I just need easily set speeds and aperture.

    The autofocus is admittedly slow and antediluvian but who really needs autofocus outside of sports? I spent 40 years before I got my first AF camera and I don't think non-autofocus held me back at all. Even now most of my images are manual focus.

    So I'm an old fogey who remembers 4 by 5 inch and Rollei photography and can't quite believe the ease that modern cameras bring - even the DF.

    As for the trade-in value of $2000, that seems pretty fair to me. My DF has been very well used, the paint rubbed in a few places, is quite a few years old and has thousands of actuations. I couldn't sell it for that price.

    At the end of the day, you don't have to trade if you think $2,000 isn't good enough.
    Bill CB

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Oops. For a minute there I thought this was LuLa.

    Theodoros, why the different name here?

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Oops. For a minute there I thought this was LuLa.

    Theodoros, why the different name here?
    Hi Stephen... Its the original I started on all other forums with... I'll change it to "Theodoros" as long as I will bother to search how to do so....

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post

    It's the business model that I don't agree with here...
    +1

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    The autofocus is admittedly slow and antediluvian but who really needs autofocus outside of sports?
    I DO! I don't care about speed. I care about predictable accuracy. Ever tried to capture a 150mm f2.8 shot with focus on the left eye? I can't do this manually and I find this to be nearly impossible of the 645DF. With the 5D3 I can nail this every time. Additionally, I have a RZ67 Pro IID that I can also shoot with my Credo back. But my eyesight isn't good enough to consistently manual focus the camera. So I can't use it. I depend on AF for this reason. I shoot ZERO sports. So yea, there are non sports people who require good AF performance.

    As for the trade-in value of $2000, that seems pretty fair to me. My DF has been very well used, the paint rubbed in a few places, is quite a few years old and has thousands of actuations. I couldn't sell it for that price.

    At the end of the day, you don't have to trade if you think $2,000 isn't good enough.
    Bill, what you've said is based on your needs, requirements, and experience. Please be aware that there are other valid needs, requirements, and experiences. If the XF was $4k, then $2k trade in would be fair IMO. But at $8k, I think a $2k trade in is woefully insufficient. And that $2k is not universal. If the DF was a solid performer, then my opinion would be different. But IMO, the DF is and has been a flawed product. So to command a premium to replace a flawed product with a hopefully competent product is not right. Just my opinion.
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    I DO! I don't care about speed. I care about predictable accuracy. Ever tried to capture a 150mm f2.8 shot with focus on the left eye? I can't do this manually and I find this to be nearly impossible of the 645DF. With the 5D3 I can nail this every time. Additionally, I have a RZ67 Pro IID that I can also shoot with my Credo back. But my eyesight isn't good enough to consistently manual focus the camera. So I can't use it. I depend on AF for this reason. I shoot ZERO sports. So yea, there are non sports people who require good AF performance.
    Same here. Although I have very good eyesight and can focus manually with the necessary accuracy, I find it extremely convenient that I just need to point my camera to the subject and get it in focus. My H4D does it relatively slowly compared to a 5D3, but faster than me and with very good accuracy (within millimetres for portraits). I never shoot sports and mainly shoot static subjects.

    I am a bit surprised to hear that the 645DF cannot focus correctly. Maybe your particular camera needs to be adjusted? On the H4D with the 100mm f/2.2, I have no problem focussing on the left (or right) eye.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Jerome, when I first got my camera, I couldn't believe nothing was wrong with it. I sent it in to the MAC Group for service. I them sent it to Capture Integration for service. But times I was informed it was performing ad designed. After conversations with CI personnel and other users, I finally convinced myself nothing was actually wrong with my camera. But my experience with 35mm SLRs, both film and digital, skewed my expectations. I honestly couldn't believe the medium format community accepted thus level Of focusing. But I then realized that there were a TON of landscape photographers. Their priorities were different than mine. I also realized that many shot MF and didn't rely on AF. On hindsight, I probably should've gone the Hasselblad route with True Focus. But the prospect of using the RZ and the DF won me over. I knew the AF performance of the DF wasn't DSLR level. But I didn't expect it to be as bad as it is. The main problem is the focus point is just too big for pinpoint accuracy. I have to pump the shutter 3 sometimes 4 times to make sure I'm locked on what I want to be locked on. And sometimes that's still not good enough.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    To clarify the eyesight thing, I wear varifocals. I have to raise and lower and head to find the sweet spot for focused scenes. Even then, I struggle with whether I'm seeing things accurately or not. It's gotten on my nerves so much I'm seriously considering Lasik surgery. So AF is critical to me successfully capturing in focus images.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I have to say the XF camera comes at a perfect time for me, shooting landscapes with a DF camera currently. I usually shoot with mirror-up, and also tend to bracket exposures. The DF does this, but it requires continuos work in the menus to make it happen. The new camera appears to make these functions far far more simpler, and I anticipate, improve the flow of my work. I have also spent time recently comparing Tech cameras to the Phase cameras, and wondering if vibrations play a role in the final image quality for an 80mp back. The new seismic sensor in this camera will be very helpful in assessing camera movements and image quality. I hope eventually this will translate into some type of image stabilization function. I am compelled enough to already order the XF from the dealer.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Is the 645DF focus really that bad? I have no problems with my old H4D and its single focus point.

    As to the price of the XF, the H5x is similarly priced: $7,800.00 with a viewfinder. I suppose PhaseOne believes that is where their real competition is and they chose a similar price point.
    Focus: It's not great compared to any 35mm DSLR that's for sure but as a landscape shooter it's fine. The bigger issues in the past were reliability with the backs in the field and dumb film carry over features like linking bracketing & exposure compensation to the same increment - i.e. you couldn't separate them. Also metering is 'meh' but I hardly ever use it anyway.

    I'd would say that the XF is far more worthy of it's $8k price tag than the $5/6k DF/DF+ bodies were at their list price. You do seem to be getting a lot more for your money.

    (Btw, it's worth watching the XF video interview over at LuLa to really get a better character of the new body. The specs are fine but seeing it really does make a difference. I'll wait to try one ... )
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    My 2c worth. Congratulations to Phase for a NEW body.. We have been waiting for this for quite a number of years now and for me its a welcome addition to the world of photography.
    So far as i'm concerned this body will be the workhouse for many, and for many years to come and whilst it could be regarded as expensive think about how long you will have it and amortise its cost then see how 'in-expensive' it really is.
    For me, I will place my order tomorrow, for the body and WLF which will replace my beloved Contax. My work is mostly on the Cambo so many of the features are irrelevant but oh how it will improve my workflow over the Contax in the studio. - Mamiya when will we see the Credo firmware update?

    Cheers from down under...
    Just good to be here....

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Like I've written, I fully expect to upgrade even though I will continue to harp on the cost. But whatever. Here's my current quandary. As Obeone mentioned, when can we expect the firmware upgrade for Credo backs to be ready? I want to upgrade my DF body but can't until the firmware is ready as I have to use my camera until then. So, if anybody has any credible information on this please let us know

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    Ι Βelieve you aren't well informed Ken... you can't use a P series back on the XF, neither you can use a third party back made for m645 mount... and I doubt you can use IQ3 with H or V bodies... (although I'm not sure...)... it is a closed system (as a platform) for IQ backs only... no multishot, no film, not an ability to retain an older back... all that H5X does offer.
    The IQ380 is made in Hasselblad V and H mounts. The IQ250 and IQ260's also. The IQ350 and IQ360 are similar but made for the XF only for now. All of the IQ1xx's are made in Mamiya/Phase, Hasselblad H and V mounts.

    All Leaf Credo's will soon work with the XF.

    Yes, all Phase P and P+ backs are left out of the system for now and the older Leaf backs, the Mamiya 645ZD and the old Kodak DCS Pro backs. The Hasselblad HxD's were all sold as a back/camera units and the Hasselblad backs were obviously never offered in other mfg mounts.

    I mean Phase offers more digital back options for the discontinued Hasselblad V system than Hasselblad. Crazy that you can slap on a state of the art IQ380 back on an old Hassy. Phase could have easily dropped making the newer IQ backs in Hasselblad H and V mounts to make people adopt their camera/lens system but they did not. That is pretty cool.

    Haters gonna hate.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Haters gonna hate.
    Exactly. No point arguing with the haters/trolls.

    It all looks positive to me, and I'm probably going to be one of the late adopters if at all. Looks great and I really want one but I want a 32HR on Alpa more ...
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    From what I've seen of threads over at LuLa and here, the loudest critics are those who don't currently shoot with Phase cameras, never had an intention to shoot with a Phase camera, and won't be shooting a Phase camera in the future either.

    If it works for you---great. If it doesn't, find something that does.

    For those of us that actually use Phase DF bodies (and earlier generations), I think it's safe to say we all look forward to progress, though there is always always always room for improvement. I've always said that there is no free lunch. And so it is with the XF.

    My name is already on the list for the new Phase XF. Sure it costs some money, but that's the cost of doing business too. I look forward to enjoying the advancements in AF performance and other perks.

    ken

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Ken, maybe I'm missing something. But in reading through this thread, it seems to me the most critical ones do shoot Phase gear. Also, IMO, all most people seem to be arguing for is value. I'm willing to pay a premium. I already have. However, I don't want to be taken advantage of. I feel that the pricing on this body exceeds "a premium". Especially in light of the fact that it's replacing a faulty body. IMO, others should be grateful there are those willing to be called haters and trolls when they raise a stink when they see something that doesn't seem right. If Phase is sensitive to the needs of their customers then they'll take all of this in.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I guess we'd all love it for Phase One to come along and say listen folks, our previous DF/DF+ bodies had some flaws and didn't integrate well with your digital backs. I'll tell you what, we'll let you exchange your IQ1/IQ2 series backs and DF/DF+ cameras for the new cameras for, oh say, free or maybe $500 or $1k or $3k. Wouldn't that be nice.

    Well, it isn't going to happen. Not only that but I challenge anyone to come up with any other commercial situation where this type of situation has come up? It doesn't happen.

    I don't mean to sound like an apologist for Phase One but as someone in the commercial field generally I can tell you that organizations just don't give away new hardware technology for free. Anyone who says that they do are just paying for it in another way such as through paid maintenance/support programmes.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Ken, i'm with you. I suspect that not too many people complain about the latest model vehicle price and just happen to part with the money easily (or make the old model work just a little longer if they cannot afford to upgrade).
    The XF body i'm sure will not be the 'Edsel' of camera bodies and is a platform designed to be built upon over several years and generations of backs - a workhorse for serious photographers.
    Just as a builder may want the latest truck (ute in Aussie speak) a photographer may want the latest in camera bodies. I have a DF+ that has hardly fired a shot in anger because I really need a WLF and thus still use as my favourite studio camera a Contax. This new XF is a generational change and I for one welcome it as a breath of fresh air.
    Just good to be here....

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    Jerome, when I first got my camera, I couldn't believe nothing was wrong with it. I sent it in to the MAC Group for service. I them sent it to Capture Integration for service. But times I was informed it was performing ad designed. After conversations with CI personnel and other users, I finally convinced myself nothing was actually wrong with my camera. But my experience with 35mm SLRs, both film and digital, skewed my expectations. I honestly couldn't believe the medium format community accepted thus level Of focusing. But I then realized that there were a TON of landscape photographers. Their priorities were different than mine. I also realized that many shot MF and didn't rely on AF. On hindsight, I probably should've gone the Hasselblad route with True Focus. But the prospect of using the RZ and the DF won me over. I knew the AF performance of the DF wasn't DSLR level. But I didn't expect it to be as bad as it is. The main problem is the focus point is just too big for pinpoint accuracy. I have to pump the shutter 3 sometimes 4 times to make sure I'm locked on what I want to be locked on. And sometimes that's still not good enough.
    That is a bit surprising. I don't think that the focus point is much smaller in H cameras, but it can focus on an eye reliably enough for a portrait.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    To clarify the eyesight thing, I wear varifocals. I have to raise and lower and head to find the sweet spot for focused scenes. Even then, I struggle with whether I'm seeing things accurately or not. It's gotten on my nerves so much I'm seriously considering Lasik surgery. So AF is critical to me successfully capturing in focus images.
    Lasik surgery will not correct your vision completely if you need varifocals.

    How strong is your correction? Do you have astigmatism (does your correction has a figure saying "cyl." or something similar)? If your correction is not too strong and you don't have much astigmatism, you may be better looking in the finder without glasses and using the built-in adjustment. Else, you may want to consider a pair of single focal glasses, they are not very expensive.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Well I have a 645DF with and IQ180 back - 95% landscape is the use.

    So it is good to see the new XF - yes it has been awhile but now it is a matter of seeing if it is the next new camera in my camera bag.

    Maybe, maybe not.

    I feel the information on the camera is still a bit thin on the ground so I am in the wait and see group.

    Must admit as a Canon user with a substantial number of high quality Canon lenses, I am also looking with interest at the soon to be released 5Dsr - 50 Mp camera - maybe that will come before an XF.

    It is a good time to be patient.


    Mal
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    ...............

    When I decided to buy into a Phase system, I thought I'd pay a high price to enter, but after that things would be reasonable via upgrades. But I'm discovering I was wrong. I'm more than disappointed by this revelation.
    Absolutely the reason why I bailed out. Much happier with the Pentax.
    Too much to list, let's just say I have a bad case of GAS.........
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I normally lurk in the background on this forum, but the release of the XF and accompanying conversation has driven me to add my opinion to this thread.

    Let me provide a use case, which will be a common scenario:

    Background

    I own a P40+ and 645DF. The back is fantastic. The body is poor. I upgraded the battery, and that solved many issues. However the focus capability is poor at best and I often have to turn off/on the body/back to get things working again. It can be unbelievably frustrating. In a landscape scenario I can imagine that this would not be too bad. However if you work with people, things can go south very very quickly.

    I have made an overall investment of 20,000.

    I have waited patiently for a new body since 2010. I am perfectly happy with the P40+.

    Upgrade

    I am now in a situation where I cannot upgrade just the 645DF and Phase are retiring the DF+. I have been waiting for several years having invested in what I thought was a MODULAR camera system.

    So ok, lets consider upgrading the body and back. I contacted a dealer and have been told the price to upgrade to an IQ350 / XF is 20,000 (ex taxes).

    Twenty. Thousand. Pounds

    In US$ thats more than $30,000 (ex taxes). And that is only if I trade in my perfectly good P40+ / poor 645DF.

    I am put in this situation because Phase have cut off an upgrade for the P/P+ owners. I must be amongst many hundreds of photogs who have spent some time considering this, and have only one conclusion. That this is a deliberate business tactic by Phase One and not a technological issue. I mean come on. Get real Phase One. We can read between the lines on this one. Show us the technical reason that you cannot make the body / P/P+ backs work.

    Conclusions

    This is where Phase One are making a mistake. I, amongst many hundreds of P/P+ users, now know where we stand. To stay on the Phase One roadmap, long term, will cost at least 20k. I've been pushed into looking at the competition, by a business decision of Phase One. Crazy. I am now getting quotes for a Hasselblad H5D-50c and a Leica S (type 007). Remember. If I could buy a Phase One XF for my P40+, I would do it, immediately. However Phase One have made this not possible.

    I'm now in a position where changing platform is back on the agenda. It really is. I cannot for the life of me work out why they would do this.

    Feedback

    So if any dealers / Phase One employees are reading:

    1. Not allowing P/P+ owners to upgrade their bodies is creating a scenario where the competition comes back into play.
    2. To avoid an equivalent Hasselblad "closed platform" PR disaster, you guys need to fully explain why the P/P+ backs won't work.
    3. You should have made the XF work with P/P+ backs, but with very limited functionality. People would get that. They would buy the body and work with it. Phase would keep people invested in their system and those people would eventually be driven to upgrade. However at a pace that didn't ostracise them.

    Disclaimer

    I am not a "hater" or "troll". I am someone who is working logically through the outcomes of the Phase One XF announcement. I am describing a real life scenario that I'm sure is common amongst the photog community.
    Last edited by 6x6; 8th June 2015 at 04:19.
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    in my experience with Phase, if you want to stay current, expect it to cost at least $10,000 per year on top of your initial investment. Think of it as a subscription plan. what is also a tough one is bailing out; as many have found, resale of used backs, not to mention the DF, is a difficult proposition, and you regain maybe 30-40% of what you spent only a year ago

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    The IQ380 is made in Hasselblad V and H mounts. The IQ250 and IQ260's also. The IQ350 and IQ360 are similar but made for the XF only for now. All of the IQ1xx's are made in Mamiya/Phase, Hasselblad H and V mounts.

    All Leaf Credo's will soon work with the XF.

    Yes, all Phase P and P+ backs are left out of the system for now and the older Leaf backs, the Mamiya 645ZD and the old Kodak DCS Pro backs. The Hasselblad HxD's were all sold as a back/camera units and the Hasselblad backs were obviously never offered in other mfg mounts.

    I mean Phase offers more digital back options for the discontinued Hasselblad V system than Hasselblad. Crazy that you can slap on a state of the art IQ380 back on an old Hassy. Phase could have easily dropped making the newer IQ backs in Hasselblad H and V mounts to make people adopt their camera/lens system but they did not. That is pretty cool.
    I think you understand different what I'm saying Ken... Every photographer would like compatibility with everything... Now we can't have that with lenses (if one uses mamiya for instance he can't use a Contax lens) as mounts differ, but traditionally, from the film days one could use whatever film he would like on his body... this lasted with MFDBs too until Hasselblad decided to "close" the H system, but they always offered a body (H2F, H4X, now H5X) that was open to all other backs as a base platform... That was true for Phase one too up until recently and now changes.... One that uses third party back, or sometimes uses film or uses multishot "true colour" backs, he can't use the XF as a platform... So the only alternative (if he wants new) is to buy an H5X...

    Now, because Hasselblad has financial problems, one may be affraid to invest on Hasselblad... So there is a "pressure" (done on purpose) from Phase One as for one to change his back too... It would be too easy for them as to retain P backs compatibility, but if they would, it would also allow older backs from Sinar & hasselblad/imacon CF to work on XF... So what they do (or plan to achieve), is 1. To put "pressure" in the market for people to change their older backs (epecially those people that use discontinued camera platforms... even Mamyia AFD) for a modern P1 back and 2. To "trap" IQ3 back users (much like Hasselblad did in the past) as to use an XF body... Now, that is what I call "closing the system" and IMO, as it happened with Hasselblad, it is a very risky thing to do because photographers (usually) want their freedom and it can turn completely to the opposite direction...

    I am using Contax myself and 2 MFDBs (both multishot)... and although I have 3 bodies in perfect working order (and another listed for sale), it is reasonable to look for an alive system as a platform (both my backs have interchangeable mounting plates), I can't just change platform to ΧF though, because if I do I will also have to change the backs for phase one which is out of the question since I can't decrease the quality or detail that multishot provides.... Our point of view is different... see?

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    Quote Originally Posted by 6x6 View Post
    I am not a "hater" or "troll". I am someone who is working logically through the outcomes of the Phase One XF announcement. I am describing a real life scenario that I'm sure is common amongst the photog community.
    I think that this is the inevitable outcome of having to modernize the entire system in one fell swoop, if what Phase wants is a modern camera, as the DF and AFD before that were based on decades-old design that was being kept alive through an artificial heart machine. The older backs were not meant to work with a digital camera so to speak, up until now back and camera were two separate entities that simply told each other when a shot was being taken. At some point Phase had to axe film backs too.

    As of late some users seem to be jumping ship to Pentax, and I myself bought a 645Z a while ago, still sitting on the fence for what is now the Canon 5DS, glad I didn't wait. With the S007 probably being released soon, I'd wait to see how it performs compared to the 645Z, but it is a good 3x the price... and the lenses are also expensive. If I had a lot more income than I do now, I wouldn't mind owning one too though, every lens is of incredible quality and feels like it's made of a solid chunk of steel.
    Pentax already has an amazing 28-45 zoom, and a 45-80 and 80-160 on the horizon, all with stabilization and a constant f/4.5 aperture, so they're going in a different but interesting direction. Leica has leaf shutters though. It all depends on your needs.

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    I guess what I am saying is that through the release of their XF body, Phase One have created a scenario where a host of their users (P/P+ owners) now have to reconsider their backs too. This raises the possibility of some of these people moving to the competition during this process.
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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    6x6, any reason you can't upgrade your P40+ to an IQ140 which will work on the XF? I'm sure that would be a lot cheaper way of entering the XF system than going straight to a 350, especially if you are happy with the P40+ files, I believe its a better UI but the same sensor, could be wrong though.

    Mat

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    Re: Phase One News: XF Body, IQ3 backs, 35LS, 120LS, C1 8.3, Website

    @mjr - that could be an option. Although I am essentially getting the same sensor at considerable extra cost (cost assumed).

    Its still all cards back on the table instead of a simple body upgrade.
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