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Thread: So, where is the Leica S2?

  1. #101
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    You guys are forcing me to go to PMA and actually get the S2 demo presentation. LOL

    Keep twisting my arm , BTW I am putting everything on Black this time.
    Finally getting the hints!!! Seriously, if there is any way to start prying more real and useful information from the folks at Leica about the S2, and even the R10, it would be very nice to have and share some of that. We may all be surprised with an announcement, and that could settle things quickly, but it would also be nice for another trusted hands-on look, see what other lenses besides the 70mm are ready to rock, take a few snaps to let folks know what seems to be working or not. You now have enough experience with your Phase/Mamiya to make some fair comparisons.

    If you have the time, it could be worth the trip to either placate your own curiosity, and/or to "take one for the team" and let the rest of us know if we should start saving lots of pennies, or start looking elsewhere. Come on, Guy, you KNOW you want to go

    LJ

    Taking donations for the craps table. LOL

    I am curious

  2. #102
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    ... let the rest of us know if we should start saving lots of pennies, or start looking elsewhere...
    Well, LJ, the tanking stock market has put paid my savings plan for the S2.

  3. #103
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post

    One last thing:

    I had this discussion before on another place, somehow the relationship between Hasselblad and Carl Zeiss was damaged and we will propably never find out why (I suspect the usual stuff: cutting costs, not willing to pay for new developements...) and they switched to Fuji.

    After seeing their (Zeiss) production facility (the most sophisticated in the world)....
    Carl Zeiss simply could not offer what we wanted on a technical level, so we chose the partner who could, Fujinon. If you don't wish to believe so, that is your wish.

    I too hope Leica has a success with the S2. It would be sad to see the brand disappear.

    Best,



    David

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Forrest,
    I hear you on that!! Part of the brewing "problem" I am wrestling with right now is that I am needing to update gear. No matter which route I may go....stick wih Canon 1-series for all the things I now need to do, or move to S2 or whatever and make adjustments accordingly in both business and shooting....it is going to be very expensive. Not looking forward to that part either way. However, if Leica is able to bring the S2 out at a manageable price point, and it delivers what is promised, it might be worth finding the way to get there for me. I really do not want to keep dealing with the Canons, but the new 17mm f4 TS-E lens they just popped out is looking interesting to fill some gaping holes in shooting needs. Sigh....

    LJ

  5. #105
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    Carl Zeiss simply could not offer what we wanted on a technical level, so we chose the partner who could, Fujinon.
    The suggestion that Zeiss could not offer what 'blad wanted; the suggestion that Nikon could not offer what 'blad needed, the suggestion that only Fujinon could impresses me as someone talking out of their arse. All of those companies, and Canon included, produce phenomenally high-quality optics; optics well beyond the lower quality of optics that is the realm of our photography needs. All of those guys can produce optics of a quality acceptable to Hasselblad's needs.

    The fact is the world is shrinking; a world-class education is available to more people from every corner of the planet. Extremely talented people are now everywhere. Cutting edge technology is studied and shared around the world overnight via the internet. The best raw materials from country A are shipped to manufacturing in country B and refined into final product in country C, happens all day, every day, in every segment of every industry. And it is all done IN THE NAME OR CORPORATE PROFITABILITY, nothing else. Any suggestion otherwise is stupidity beyond belief.

    'blad hooked up with Fujinon because Fuji offered the PRICE that 'blau could work with, Zeiss couldn't/wouldn't. Zeiss could just as easily provided the quality optics 'blad wanted, and would have lent the Zeiss name to the 'blad product, a huge marketing plus realized by anyone except the genuinely stupid. How would 'blad's marketing been affected by promoting new optics by Canon? You can bet the farm someone at Hasselblad weighed that consideration and decided, for whatever reason, Fijinon offered a better profit margin for where 'blad wanted to go.

    You want to try and convince me this isn't all about money, you got yourself an uphill battle.

  6. #106
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    The suggestion that Zeiss could not offer what 'blad wanted; the suggestion that Nikon could not offer what 'blad needed, the suggestion that only Fujinon could impresses me as someone talking out of their arse. All of those companies, and Canon included, produce phenomenally high-quality optics; optics well beyond the lower quality of optics that is the realm of our photography needs. All of those guys can produce optics of a quality acceptable to Hasselblad's needs.
    It's never a good idea to insult someone over such nonsense, but it's particularly bad form when you don't know what the facts are. Could the H series lenses have been Zeiss? Could they have been Nikon? Canon? Who cares? They are what they are, and you either like the system and buy them or you don't.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    It is ALWAYS about the money. Over the last 10 years MFD back makers and all the associated suppliers have been able ( like everyone else) to make a lot of 'easy' money. Sure, no one wants to say it was easy money - after all one had to get out of bed and go to work - but the money was 'easy'.

    Now?

    Just try selling something at 2007 prices in a 2009 world - good luck and best wishes. Try to sell somethign with 2007 prices and 2007 technology at 2009 prices - hahahahahhahaha

    Looking forward to all the glossy brochures and internet chatter from self proclaimed pro shootin gun totin rubber on the road pro shooters, dealers, quasi dealers, friends of dealers and other insightful commentators...

    The ONLY way to see if something works for you is to rent it or buy it and suck the lemon yourself. The worst advice you can get is from the person who has bought something, consiedring buying somethign , pretending they have something, and is carrying that bias - with a very scarce number of exceptions to this rule.

  8. #108
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    The suggestion that Zeiss could not offer what 'blad wanted; the suggestion that Nikon could not offer what 'blad needed, the suggestion that only Fujinon could impresses me as someone talking out of their arse. All of those companies, and Canon included, produce phenomenally high-quality optics; optics well beyond the lower quality of optics that is the realm of our photography needs. All of those guys can produce optics of a quality acceptable to Hasselblad's needs.

    The fact is the world is shrinking; a world-class education is available to more people from every corner of the planet. Extremely talented people are now everywhere. Cutting edge technology is studied and shared around the world overnight via the internet. The best raw materials from country A are shipped to manufacturing in country B and refined into final product in country C, happens all day, every day, in every segment of every industry. And it is all done IN THE NAME OR CORPORATE PROFITABILITY, nothing else. Any suggestion otherwise is stupidity beyond belief.

    'blad hooked up with Fujinon because Fuji offered the PRICE that 'blau could work with, Zeiss couldn't/wouldn't. Zeiss could just as easily provided the quality optics 'blad wanted, and would have lent the Zeiss name to the 'blad product, a huge marketing plus realized by anyone except the genuinely stupid. How would 'blad's marketing been affected by promoting new optics by Canon? You can bet the farm someone at Hasselblad weighed that consideration and decided, for whatever reason, Fijinon offered a better profit margin for where 'blad wanted to go.

    You want to try and convince me this isn't all about money, you got yourself an uphill battle.
    Why would anyone what to convince you of anything?

    Your arguement makes absolutely no sense. You say all these different companies can make excellent optics then imply Fuji can't. It's a mental circle jerk. This wasn't the first partnership with Fuji, look to the XPan and it's lenses

    Even though I have a lifelong passion for photography and the tools of photography, I'm pretty pragmatic about all this.

    I do not give a flying (you know what) how they got there or who they did it with ... the Hasselbald tools work, and continue to work.

    Most of the rest of these pronouncements sound like fairy tales to me. Not of the real world I live and work in.

    Leica has stiffed me one two many times to entrust them with upwards of 30K for a new MFD system at the expense of one I KNOW works ... Leica has given me a cheapened "flagship" rangefinder with a focusing patch that whited out (money saving move); the interesting, but ill fated DMR which they abandoned almost immediately; a couple of $2K+ R lenses that had really rough spots in the focusing; and the M8 fiasco which almost drove me insane... and is a camera I STILL will not trust my livelyhood to ... not to mention 5 out of 9 M lenses that needed focus calibration ... some as many as 3 trips to fix. Who has the time and energy to deal with such nonsense concerning their tools?

    In short, Leica has worked my last nerve.

    So, I'll let all you folks beta test this stuff for me this time around. And I sure as hell won't listen to internet chatter by people supporting their purchase decisions ... I will talk to people who are as pragmatic as I am when it comes to stuff that you can trust your career to.

    Meanwhile, my trusted Hassey Hs keep on truckin' ... cranking out job, after job, after job ... and not one client has said "Whoa there Marc, you aren't using Zeiss lenses, I gotta have Zeiss lenses or I'll go elsewhere."

  9. #109
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    If anyone is interested in getting a hands-on demo of the S2 at PMA, I have set up a time with Christian from Leica USA (a good friend to many here). He will make sure that we can get a private audience with the several key S2 team members including the product manager. The meeting is tentatively scheduled for Thursday, March 5th at 10:30 AM.

    Christian said that they will give an in-depth demo, then hold a Q&A session regarding the S2 and other Leica products in the pipeline. This is a really great opportunity to get first-hand info.

    If you are interested in joining us, please let me know ASAP so I can give Christian some numbers.

    Thanks,

    David
    David Farkas
    Leica Store Miami

  10. #110
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Your arguement makes absolutely no sense. You say all these different companies can make excellent optics then imply Fuji can't. It's a mental circle jerk. ...

    You could benefit from re-reading what I wrote.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    You could benefit from re-reading what I wrote.
    I did. Let's let go at "we see things differently" and agree to disagree.

    BTW, I admire Zeiss products very much. I currently have and use a substantial arsenal of Zeiss lenses ... ten CFE/CFi/CF lenses on a 503CW; six ZF lenses on my Nikons; five FE lenses on my 203FE; and four ZA AF lenses on my Sony A900s)

    I'd say that using 25 Zeiss lenses currently (and a bunch more previously on my Contax 645 and 35mm cameras), proves that I admire their products and voted with my hard earned money. However, I admire some of the Hasselblad optics, and some of the Nikon lenses just as much.

    With that all said, my current over-all favorite MF lens is the Hasselblad 100/2.2, and in 35mm AF some of my favorites are the Nikon 200/2VR, and the Minolta/Sony 70-200/2.8 APO; none of which Zeiss made.

    I will readily admit that had Hasselblad continued it's relationship with Zeiss for the H camera, I would have still selected them for my MFD solution ... as long as the AF was substantially better than what I experienced with my Contax 645 and the price tag wasn't in the territory of the lenses for the Hy6 since I have a business to run and a bottom line to feed.

    The Leica S2 will have the optics I have no doubt in my mind what-so-ever.

    The two issues that have not been fully addressed is price and service. Both of which Leica has a history to over-come. How they do that will be the measure of the camera's eventual success IMHO.

  12. #112
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I don't quite understand why this thread got so poisonous. FTR, I am with Oxide Blu in my disbelief that Zeiss was rejected by Hasselblad due to technical flaws or lacks. I however in no way believe that David, who seems to be an upstanding citizen, is lying. Rather, I think that the real reason has gotten long lost in the mists of time, and no true accounts exist any more. I have, for example, heard that Zeiss rejected the request, since they do not market two lines of lenses in the same market at any given point in time, and the H lenses would have competed against the Contax 645 lineup. I have also heard other accounts, all wildly different.

    I know that Zeiss makes great lenses, but they have also made some less spectacular ones, and I don't adore Zeiss the way some people do. I love my Contax 645 35/3.5 and 120/4 Macro lenses, and the 80/2 is nice too. I also adore my 110/2. I have no experience with Fuji lenses, but know that they have good reputations. I am skeptical that I would like them as much as my Zeiss lenses, but admit that the possibility is there.

    Perhaps we could all return to facts and personal preferences, and to the S2?
    Carsten - Website

  13. #113
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I don't quite understand why this thread got so poisonous. FTR, I am with Oxide Blu in my disbelief that Zeiss was rejected by Hasselblad due to technical flaws or lacks. I however in no way believe that David, who seems to be an upstanding citizen, is lying. Rather, I think that the real reason has gotten long lost in the mists of time, and no true accounts exist any more. I have, for example, heard that Zeiss rejected the request, since they do not market two lines of lenses in the same market at any given point in time, and the H lenses would have competed against the Contax 645 lineup. I have also heard other accounts, all wildly different.

    I know that Zeiss makes great lenses, but they have also made some less spectacular ones, and I don't adore Zeiss the way some people do. I love my Contax 645 35/3.5 and 120/4 Macro lenses, and the 80/2 is nice too. I also adore my 110/2. I have no experience with Fuji lenses, but know that they have good reputations. I am skeptical that I would like them as much as my Zeiss lenses, but admit that the possibility is there.

    Perhaps we could all return to facts and personal preferences, and to the S2?
    I think it doesn't matter why any of this happened, which was Peter's point and also mine. Who cares? Can't change history. It is what it is, no matter why.

    And in my experience, history is exactly what Leica needs to address with the S2.

    Preserve the long history of excellent optical performance while migrating to MFD.

    Correct a recent history of poor service, less than stellar manufacturing QC, and design hiccups ... and swiftly rebuild the trust that took generations to build, and a few short years to unravel.

    All the luck and good fortune to them in doing that.

  14. #114
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Marc,
    I am a bit more aligned with you on the S2 vs. anything else. While I am maybe wishfully hoping that Leica has finally had that lightbulb go back on about quality build and service, I am also being realistic and will wait to see how things shake out a bit myself. I do not want to relive the early adopter M8 fiasco, and if there is any hint the S2 may have similar teething problems, I will write Leica off and probably get onto Hassy for MFD.

    With respect to all the static and chatter over who sleeps with whom on the lens lines, etc......all I can say is that from what I have seen Hasselblad is doing just fine with nice Fujinon glass, and Zeiss is doing its own thing with offering lenses of same design to several others as third party stuff. As Peter said....it is what it is, and all the speculation for why or why not really matter very little.

    As for Oxide Blu's comments about vertical integration and manufacturing.....I actually think it is more company dependent than anything. If a company is well run, has the capability and resources to control all the parts, good for them. Few can do that today, especially with costs and build deadlines being all over the map. So, my perspective is that it does not really matter who builds what parts for whom, and under what arrangements, as long as the stuff works the way I need, and the price is competitive for the quality. Fujinon glass in Hassy lenses is NOT a shortfall from what I have seen, and Zeiss glass is very good, but not always perfect either.

    LJ

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    well it's the 20th of February,
    maybe we'll get a bit more news today.
    I (like most people here) think more than anything, Price will determine the faith of this system.
    I'm in a position to upgrade, so looking forward to more info.
    Thanks for the good read, 114 posts, I guess lots of us are interested in the S2
    am

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I'll be watching the roll-out of the S2 carefully for several simple reasons. I'm sucker for great glass ... I spent quite a bit of time with R and M lens kits ... using and trying a large variety of the lenses offered in each group. I have always liked the way Leica glass draws and am confident that the new S2 lenses will probably live up to the fanfare. I didn't realize how much I missed using a bag full of lenses with great character until I recently picked up a Hasselblad 110/2 to use on my Phase body via adapter. While Phase/Mamiya lenses are workman-like in their ability to get the job done, the 110/2 rocks the house. Not all clients seem to notice the differences in lens characteristics ... but I do. And, for me, that's all that matters as I have a need to see what those few extra percentage points of image clarity, intangibles or whatever are going to do for me.

    The second reason that I'll watching the S2 is to see what the images coming out of the system look like. Leica, in my opinion, hasn't been praised enough for the job they have done in delivering excellent digital image quality. Maybe it's the lack of AA filter or combination of other bits of voodoo, but the images from the DMR and M8 have been gorgeous and easy to work with in post processing.

    I understand all the rest of the caveats (M8 introduction, IR problem, price, support, etc.) But, lens quality and the image quality coming out of the camera are a potentially potent combination of the things that matter most to me.

    Kurt

  17. #117
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Leica needs to "swiftly rebuild the trust that took generations to build?"

    Is that not an oxymoron, or like one? I don't know what went wrong at Leica, but I've seen no evidence that it was based on their deciding to cut back here or there. I think there were unforeseen consequences of decisions they made. Maybe these consequences taught Leica how to avoid similar hiccups in the production of the S2 and maybe not. But I think the very high cost of the system (combined with the M8's history) will make many people cautious.

    If someone asked me (I know: who would?) I'd advise waiting until the camera proves that it doesn't have hidden problems, and that it offers a degree of reliability that allows it to be trusted. I don't think Leica can "swiftly" meet those criteria.

    Admittedly, I'm not likely to buy an S2 because I don't want such a large heavy camera, but I am a Leica fan and have defended them in the past over the service I've received. Of course, before the M8 I never needed service, but I can get over that.

    Steve

  18. #118
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I think that what went wrong for Leica was that the tolerances of film were masking a number of simmering inaccuracies in their designs.

    The mechanical rangefinder system is clearly beyond its "best before" date, and in a recent interview, Herr Doktor Kaufmann has discussed some alternative directions there.

    Leica's lens designs are highly stressed, meaning that the smallest error will lead to visible flaws. Tim found this out the hard way when he took what is perhaps the most stressed of the current M lineup, the 35 Lux ASPH, to Venice, and found it focus-shifting when stopped down. The DMR delivery problems and the Imacon fiasco has also been a separate school of hard knocks.

    IMO, after this debacle, Leica has learned 1) to design less stressed lenses whose tolerances are realistic with digital, 2) to be more forthcoming with the existence of problems, and quicker with solutions, and perhaps more crucially 3) to evaluate the quality of a system as a whole, and not assume the sufficiency of any part.

    I also do think that Leica is taking the whole service-for-pros problem very seriously, and the agreement with Phase is presumably all about this. Whether all of this translates into success is not a given, but I feel mildly optimistic that the S2 will end up establishing a firm third pillar in Leica's photographic foundation. I doubt it will knock anyone else out of business though. It will just steal away some D3x/1Ds3 sales (people who are frustrated with the limitations on quality), as well as a few MF sales (those for whom most MF systems are too slow, or who want higher quality from certain lenses). These sales will not be many, but then, the market for the S2 is small, so probably enough.
    Carsten - Website

  19. #119
    Senior Member LCT's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    ...The R10 will be somewhere in the neighborhood of 18-21MP (depending on 6um or 6.8um pixel size) on a FF 35mm CCD with no AA filter and 16-bit capture. Basically, a baby S2...
    So the S2 would be 16-bit as well? I thought that LFI said 14-bit about the latter. Could you please elaborate?

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    The S2 is a 16bit-system, just like the other MFDBs but the A/D-converters always have 14bit in these systems - the sensors don't have enough DR to justify more bits.

    The DMR (I'm talking about the digital/electronics/firmware) was manufactured/developed by Imacon, the M8 by Jenoptik (Sinarbacks) - the S2 (I think the S1, too?) was developed by Leica (using some ordinary ICs) - this S2 is quite different to DMR/M8.

    We will never find out why Hasselblad chose Fuji - propably even Zeiss didn't want to work on the consumer-sector anymore?
    Zeiss has many older or conserative (many elements, big, no asphericals...) designs which are manufactured by Cosina, some were also manufactured by Kyocera (for Contax) or now by Sony (I think they use their manufacturing sites?). This is not truly Carl Zeiss!

    Going back to this topic one last time:

    Zeiss has unique know-how in designing (even the software isn't given to anyone), manufacturing, assembling, testing (with many exclusive Zeiss-machines) - they even own the biggest and most advanced glass-manufacturer (Schott). When Zeiss designs to their limits (which they done rarely in their photography-business lately) they reach are a standard, which cannot be reached by others - they don't have serious competition for their Master Primes in the film-industry or their optical devices for lithographics.

    This is a very complex topic, which cannot be explained with a few lines (especially not with my English...) but just let me say, that even the company I've worked for showed the problems of outsourcing/off-shoring and the different characteristics of different production sites (different experience, education, wages...) - we even had to use different manufacturing devices for the same products, because the more complex devices couldn't be handled by less experienced/educated workforces (why give them a certain education which takes 3 years for 100.000 when I'll only pay the worker 5000 a year and I will fire him the next chance i get and move to workers which only cost 1000 a year?)!

    Fuji doesn't produce Hasselblad-lenses in low-wage-countries (at least I hope so) but it isn't Zeiss either - we're not talking about comparing old Zeiss or Kyocery-manufactured lenses with the Fuji-lenses, but state-of-the-art new designs which Zeiss could have made for Hasselblad (300SA and 40IF may give an idea)?

    Leica also has many unique factors (also their well educated, skilled and experienced workforce) and I don't think Hasselblad will be able to match the S-quality with Fuji-lenses.

    Do they come up with new infos on the PMA? They wanted to tell more about their pro-service in January... Well, marketing and communication never was their strength...

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    It was a very interesting thread with loads of useful information.

    I am very interested in the S2 first because of the lenses, and secondly I would like to have one camera to use high sync leaf lenses and the fast in-camera focal shutter on one platform. Now I have to use my Sinar-M as a focal shutter camera and the Hy6 for high sync. I'd prefer to have a DSLR type robust body to shoot outside and the S2 looks like a camera to consider. I am pretty sure that the resolution will be enough, I am satisfied with my 22mpx. eMotion 54LV.

    The Zeiss versus Fuji discussion was interesting as well. I do not own a Hasselblad-H and cannot comment on the lenses (I know that they are very good with the 39mpx. multi-shot back). I do own the Sinaron Zeiss AF lenses for my Sinar-M and they are outstanding even with the Sinarback 54H in 16-shot mode (88mpx.) and the 40mm AF IMHO is above the excellent copy of the 40mm f/4 CFE IF I have. The Sinaron AF line has showed that Zeiss is capable to build the AF lenses to very good specs , if pricey.

    Yevgeny

  22. #122
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    Do they come up with new infos on the PMA? They wanted to tell more about their pro-service in January... Well, marketing and communication never was their strength...
    They've got eight days and counting...

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    I also do think that Leica is taking the whole service-for-pros problem very seriously, and the agreement with Phase is presumably all about this.
    They may be, but in my opinion, the only way for Leica to be able to offer the support I need is to have a dealer network devoted to the product locally. I mean really, if I have a job, and my Phase one back goes down, there is a dealer who can rent me a replacement, deliver it to my job site with charged batteries, fed ex out the bad one for repair and communicate directly with the factory as to the status.

    I love my little M8, but let's face it, it's a toy I use for fine art and snapshots. When it comes to making a living, I use tools designed for professionals, from companies that treat them as such.

    The M8 was my 1st experience with Leica. As much fun as I've had with it, I'd be hard pressed to go down that road again. Like somebody else said earlier, you guys go ahead and beta test for me. I think I'll just make some popcorn and watch the drama unfold

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I believe that the Phase network will also support the S2, presumably in a similar way. At least, that is the plan. Let's see how it unfolds.
    Carsten - Website

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by jklotz View Post
    They may be, but in my opinion, the only way for Leica to be able to offer the support I need is to have a dealer network devoted to the product locally. I mean really, if I have a job, and my Phase one back goes down, there is a dealer who can rent me a replacement, deliver it to my job site with charged batteries, fed ex out the bad one for repair and communicate directly with the factory as to the status.
    This can get interesting. Ever notice the FTC's required boiler plate statement included with all product warranties that says something to the effect "you may have other rights that vary from state to state ..." ?

    Well, Calif is one such state. Its consumer protection laws include a mandate that manfrs of any item that operates on electricity and has a wholesale value in excess of $100 (I think that would include a S2 ) is required to maintain warranty repair in close proximity to where the product is sold. The alternative is that every retailer of that manfr's product becomes a warranty drop off station. In Calif support is as close as a retailer. We never need to pay to return something for repairs.

    Calif also requires the manfr to maintain parts to fix anything for 7-years after the product is sold, regardless of the length of the manfr's warranty. So an S2 will be repairable and usable for at least 7 years. Oh, and if the manfr does not repair something with 30-days, you can compel them to buy the product back from you, less fair depreciation for use when the product was working.

  26. #126
    Howard Cubell
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    This can get interesting. Ever notice the FTC's required boiler plate statement included with all product warranties that says something to the effect "you may have other rights that vary from state to state ..." ?

    Well, Calif is one such state. Its consumer protection laws include a mandate that manfrs of any item that operates on electricity and has a wholesale value in excess of $100 (I think that would include a S2 ) is required to maintain warranty repair in close proximity to where the product is sold. The alternative is that every retailer of that manfr's product becomes a warranty drop off station. In Calif support is as close as a retailer. We never need to pay to return something for repairs.

    Calif also requires the manfr to maintain parts to fix anything for 7-years after the product is sold, regardless of the length of the manfr's warranty. So an S2 will be repairable and usable for at least 7 years. Oh, and if the manfr does not repair something with 30-days, you can compel them to buy the product back from you, less fair depreciation for use when the product was working.
    Nothing excites me as much as the prospect of a good lawsuit as the backup plan for securing first class service on a new, as yet untested camera system.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    "Nothing excites me as much as the prospect of a good lawsuit as the backup plan for securing first class service on a new, as yet untested camera system."

    hahaha, so true. If you think the S2 will be expensive, wait until you have to pay for a German speaking Johnnie Cochran to get it serviced!

    This is not meant as a dig at the S2 -- I hope it is great and the service is better than it was for the DMR, and M cameras (well, if not better, then quicker at least). I am excited to hear about Leica's intentions about this and the pricing. It will likely make a lot of these pontifications redundant.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Oxide,

    You say "Calif is one such state," providing seven years warranty on electric products, and that a digital camera would be covered.

    Being a California lawyer, I was curious whether that was right, and couldn't find any such provision. Do you have a code section (or toher source) for a law setting forth those requirements?

    Thanks, Steve

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Ahhhh the S2.....if only I hadn't taken the bait on that come-on from Hasselblad for the 503CWD-II kit with the 40mm lens, I might be dreaming of an S2 body (I probably couldn't afford a lens too). In this economy....I wonder how many amateurs like me are willing (or able) to pony up the big bucks for an S2. Unlike the pros, we are the only ones who could tolerate mediocre service without a direct hit to our income stream.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Being a California lawyer, I was curious whether that was right, and couldn't find any such provision. Do you have a code section (or toher source) for a law setting forth those requirements?

    Well, what did you find, lawyer Steve?

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    @Yevgeny NP
    You have the Sinar M? I'm curious, is the 40mm Zeiss for the Sinar the same optical formula as the 40IF for the Hasselblad or is it the older 40? Has Sinar ordered a new AF-design and that's why Hasselblad came up with the 40IF years after the last new design for this system?

    It's a theoretical discussion, because we can barely compare real lenses (because of the differences in age, image circle...) but speculate on the possibilities of lens manufacturers. Zeiss designed the 38mm Biogon 55 years ago, a spectacular lens, but nearly fourty years later, other manufacterers came up with comparable perfomances, while Zeiss only used more advanced WA-designs for cinematography because nobody in the photography industry ordered a better WA. But that's exactly the point: Most Zeiss lenses are designed for other customers, as long as they're (Hasselblad, Rollei, Sinar, ARRI...) happy, they won't create new ones and as long the Hasselblad-customers are happy with specific drawbacks or cost cutting, they will continue this strategy and new Zeiss-designs will only be available to cinematographers or military...

    We will never find out, unless Franke&Heidecke orders a new set of high-end-lenses for >60MP-backs...

    That's something I wish for: more alternatives, different approaches, different designs, production... in the professional market. The Leica S2 and the Hy6 seem more interesting to me as just another 645-system, although they're not the ideal choice for everyone, of course.
    Last edited by georgl; 27th February 2009 at 06:12.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post
    @Yevgeny NP
    You have the Sinar M? I'm curious, is the 40mm Zeiss for the Sinar the same optical formula as the 40IF for the Hasselblad or is it the older 40? Has Sinar ordered a new AF-design and that's why Hasselblad came up with the 40IF years after the last new design for this system?


    That's something I wish for: more alternatives, different approaches, different designs, production... in the professional market. The Leica S2 and the Hy6 seem more interesting to me as just another 645-system, although they're not the ideal choice for everyone, of course.
    Yes, I do have a Sinar-M with the set of AF lenses. AFAIK the optical design of the 40mm.AF and 40IF is the same. I have just bought a 40 mm. IF lens (to use on the Flexbody) and tested the lens. I do not know why, but my copy of the IF is worse that the AF version, if only marginally: less even in the corners.
    The Af is fast and accurate.
    The Sinar-M is the only current body with the focal plane shutter to use the fast 2000 series lenses and I do not plan to part with the M.
    I still do not understand why Sinar decided to go in the Hy6 direction, IMO it would be easier to manufacture the new AF Mudule with the Rollei mount and use both the in camera and leaf shutters as Leica and PO plan to do.
    Yevgeny

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post

    ...Zeiss designed the 38mm Biogon 55 years ago, a spectacular lens, but nearly fourty years later, other manufacterers came up with comparable perfomances, while Zeiss only used more advanced WA-designs for cinematography because nobody in the photography industry ordered a better WA. But that's exactly the point: Most Zeiss lenses are designed for other customers, as long as they're (Hasselblad, Rollei, Sinar, ARRI...) happy, they won't create new ones and as long the Hasselblad-customers are happy with specific drawbacks or cost cutting, they will continue this strategy and new Zeiss-designs will only be available to cinematographers or military...
    The Zeiss Biogon was a great lens THEN but is very unsuitable for digital capture now. The medium of digital is different and therefore requires a new design consideration.

    David

  34. #134
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by David Grover / Hasselblad View Post
    The Zeiss Biogon was a great lens THEN but is very unsuitable for digital capture now. The medium of digital is different and therefore requires a new design consideration.David
    David

    Are you saying that Hasselblad wouldn't recommend the use of the SWC series in combination with Hasselblad digital backs?

    Keith

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    David

    Are you saying that Hasselblad wouldn't recommend the use of the SWC series in combination with Hasselblad digital backs?

    Keith
    There are certainly plenty of people using it with great results. However, for 'optimum' performance it can be compromised.

    Smaller apertures should be fine - fully open might be a different story.

    Same applies for any digital back, not just Hasselblad. See attached PDF!

    Hope that explains better than my too brief comment!

    David

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    The old 38mm Biogon isn't as perfectly corrected as the new Digitars/Rodenstock HR-lenses - we're still talking about a 50 years older design!

    To destroy the myth of "digital-optimized"-lens design:

    Biogons are true WA-designs (distance sensor/film->aperture = focal length), while Distagons are retrofocus-designs (the opposite of a tele-design). Todays sensors often have problems with true WA, but the lenses are better (easier to design, smaller, more possibilities...) so it would be better to focus on improving sensors to use Biogon-like designs in the future again (that's what Leica is waiting for their full-frame M9). But sensors without microlenses shouldn't have these problems, the best digital WA-images I've ever seen were made with ALPA + Rodenstock HR-lenses (they're also true WA).

    The optical effects caused by the cover-glass are another problem (the Rodenstock/Scheider-lenses also were designed with the glass in mind), that's why the M8 has a very thin cover-glass with low IR-absorption.

    The Leica S 2,5/35 seems to be superior even to these true WA (although comparing different MTFs with smaller image circle), but I was shocked when I saw the lens on the Photokina: it's huge (also the front lens diameter) and propably will be bloody expensive!

    So we can hope that sensor/microlenses/cover-glass-technology will improve and these fantastic designs will be more usable again (lenses like the new super-fast M-designs are not even possible with stronger retrofocus-designs).

    @Yevgeny NP
    Sinar is now owned by Jenoptik and they financed the Hy6 for Franke&Heidecke...

  37. #137
    Senior Member KeithL's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    David

    Thanks for your reply, appreciated.

    Rather than hijack this thread I'll start another asking for user's experiences of the SWC series in combination with DBs.

    Keith

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post

    To destroy the myth of "digital-optimized"-lens design:
    No wish to argue with you.

    Please see my above PDF. I tend to trust the mathematics of our Lens Design team as opposed to anyone else.

    Best,


    David

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by jonoslack View Post
    HI There
    Well, Frankly I'm not so convinced by all this talk of cost-sensitivity. I think there are various points, but here are a couple

    Supposing it costs $9000 to make and market the S2, if they sell it for $10000, they'll have to sell 5 times as many as if they sell it for $15000. I know it sounds screamingly obvious, but it's worth remembering when speaking of pricing.

    If you're a truck driver, you need a truck, I don't know how much a truck costs, but I'd have said that an S2 system pales into insignificance in comparison.

    Seems to me that for many working professionals (who have both MF and dSLR kits), assuming that it does live up to it's promise, it's going to allow them to ditch their MF gear and their dSLR gear for 1 combined system - expensive changeover, but cheaper afterwards.

    Added to which the whole kit is beautiful and cool. Which will probably put off many of the PJ photographers, but for fashion and advertising and fine art work it'll be fairly irresistible.

    What this says to me is that if the S2 delivers it's promise (i.e. MF image quality with dSLR convenience and performance). Then it will sell easily at Hassleblad kind of prices. If it doesn't, then it's dead at ANY price.
    This kind of thinking discounts the over-all expense of running a professional photographic service. While the camera systems are of major importance, there are a hell of lot of other costs involved ... just look at the price of good strobe gear now, and insurance costs are sky-rocketing. So the "cool factor" is just not in the business plan, no matter how cool it is.

    Dslr convenience? Maybe. Performance? I seriously doubt it.

  40. #140
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    This kind of thinking discounts the over-all expense of running a professional photographic service. While the camera systems are of major importance, there are a hell of lot of other costs involved ... just look at the price of good strobe gear now, and insurance costs are sky-rocketing. So the "cool factor" is just not in the business plan, no matter how cool it is.

    Dslr convenience? Maybe. Performance? I seriously doubt it.
    This was exactly the concept that I have been talking about. The typical working pro that would be using MF gear and be attracted to the S2 has to support a lot of other pretty costly gear also. One may argue that they already have their studio outfitted, or have what they need, but the recent advances in lighting gear, as your example, is worth considering, and it is NOT cheap, so more money spent on the S2 means less available for the other stuff needed. This also applies to the folks considering the move from DSLR to S2 as their lever for commercial shooting. If you do not already have that business, and gear, the costs will be crippling. If you do have the other gear, the cost of the S2 is still something that has to work into the overall financial plan. Just buying the body and a lens or two is not going to work for most pros, but may be all that the more casual, well-heeled user may want. Leica has to get a "pro" headset on and think about all of the business issues and how their product will fit in for those they are trying to get to buy it. The cool factor is great, and I am sure the gear will deliver, but only if it is affordable for the target group. Hasselblad and even Phase have started to recognize this....Leaf and Sinar seem a bit slower on the response. Will be interesting to hear how this is going to be priced. Right now, my wishes for the S2 and lenses is on the same list as Profoto D1s, a new MacBook Pro and monitor, and other things that need to get swapped out, PLUS the other operational and marketing expenses. Price sensitivity is real to me.

    LJ

  41. #141
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    My biggest issue is a lot of money in ONE system when I actually need two. Let's face it I am already pretty heavy in the Mamiya /Phase stuff and some lenses are very cost effective like the 35mm, 55 and my 300 mm. Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF which is a bit tougher to work with and obviously I don't need the MF horsepower here. So even though the S2 may solve the 1 system setup it is a lot to put on one very expensive system and this also limits some backup 35mm system being had in your kit. I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package than trying to stretch out for a whole S2 kit. Even though the S2 may cover both systems it still puts a lot of weight on one kit. Obviously doing that today but my cost out for a 35mm kit to add to what I already have makes more ROI sense and given business is down. You start scratching your head, sure I am a major gear slut but common sense is something I pride myself on too. This is a very careful weight balance that at least I need to employ and I know many others sit in the same kind of chair as i do. We walk into a camera dealer treading very lightly these days.
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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Having used several MF solutions (Hasselblad, Contax, Rollei) in the analog area I found recently while scanning my work with an Hasselblad Fextight X5 that the quality from the Hasselblad system is (was) by far exceeding the other systems. This is true for optical performance as well as camera performance and system handling.

    BTW I can only recommend the Flextight X5, as I found this to be the best film scanner available (and I did quite extensive tests before I bought).

    Back to MF Digital and the S2 now: I meanwhile know the H System very well, and have done a lot of tests with the H3DII and mostly the 39MP back, but also with the 50MP back. I only can say that the quality is stunning, the optical, mechanical and electronic quality of the whole package (system). And the handling at least for me is superb and far beyond what one can expect from a classical design as the S2 is going to have - the one of a supersize DSLR

    Plus you get a well thought and designed and proven Pro Service from Hasselblad and you get one of the best image processing tools - Phocus

    http://beta.hasselblad.com/products/phocus.aspx

    available today. And it is very crucial to state for an Apple Aperture lover like me, that I recognized the benefits of a great tool like Phocus together wit PS being miles away from any solution like Aperture or Lightroom, just because of achievable quality and reproduction of results!

    So what can we expect from Leica? The S2 is their first step into the digital world developed solely by their own, as is all the lenses for a digital system and the processing SW - even if this is done in cooperation with Phase One. As is their Pro support. In all these areas they are doing their first steps. And the quality of the final product will only be good or stellar, if the quality of ALL these pieces is good or stellar.

    So this gives the answer by itself: I simply cannot believe that Leica can achieve this goal - not in all areas. What we most probably will see is a great idea, and a resulting system which probably will mature over the next 4-5 years and then it could become a competitor to guys like Hasselblad or others.

    Just my 5c

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    Workshop Member ptomsu's Avatar
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    My biggest issue is a lot of money in ONE system when I actually need two. Let's face it I am already pretty heavy in the Mamiya /Phase stuff and some lenses are very cost effective like the 35mm, 55 and my 300 mm. Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF which is a bit tougher to work with and obviously I don't need the MF horsepower here. So even though the S2 may solve the 1 system setup it is a lot to put on one very expensive system and this also limits some backup 35mm system being had in your kit. I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package than trying to stretch out for a whole S2 kit. Even though the S2 may cover both systems it still puts a lot of weight on one kit. Obviously doing that today but my cost out for a 35mm kit to add to what I already have makes more ROI sense and given business is down. You start scratching your head, sure I am a major gear slut but common sense is something I pride myself on too. This is a very careful weight balance that at least I need to employ and I know many others sit in the same kind of chair as i do. We walk into a camera dealer treading very lightly these days.
    While I am fully with you Guy on the 1 system philosophy - I also do not believe this works - I cannot understand why you are looking into Sony or Nikon if there is such a beautiful Canon system and especially the new 5D2 out there. I have this camera and I love it. Even more than my Nikon D3

    And since I do not belive in the 1 system philosophy I also do not believe in the S System and thus most probably my MF system will be an H System based on a H3DII.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Peter , I know but Canon left me with a very bad taste in my mouth in the lenses and there damn AA filter. Nikon I am not crazy about the color and the Sony looks a lot like the DMR but I have not fully decided yet and reason I have not pulled the trigger on anything. All the 35mm setups are still a little short in my mind on glass. Okay i did get a G10 for fun so i have not left them by the side of the road completely. LOL

    When at PMA i will get them all in my hands again and see what is comfortable. I'm also waiting on some MF announcements and see what those bring.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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  45. #145
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ...Right now looking at a Sony for more of the event type work that I have been doing with MF ... I am more inclined to sit pat in a lot of ways and just add a small Sony or Nikon basic event package ...
    Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!?

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    "Please see my above PDF. I tend to trust the mathematics of our Lens Design team as opposed to anyone else."

    What I've tried to say: "Digital" lenses are compromised (WA) to compensate today's sensor shortcomings, a very popular example is the 4/3-system which caused gigantic lenses (in comparison to the sensor size). Of course sensor-technology will advance very quickly (Iit already did - the M8 was impossible 4 years ago, DALSAs new microlenses are further improved) while the laws of optical design will stand for decades, retrofocus lenses will be much more complex/heavier/distortion-prone... than true WA.

    Mass-producers now claim coming up with "digital-optimized" lenses which are improved on resolution, CA... Of course, sharp lenses are sharp, whether they're used on digital or not...

    That's the kind of marketing is was talking about - good lenses are good lenses, period.

    Only considering the optical effects of the cover glass is some kind of true "digital-optimizing" of the lenses.

  47. #147
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!?
    LOL How embarrassing though. Oh sure can you hand me that 10k check please.
    Actually that is true and false. Be surprised sometimes where this stuff winds up but I agree you do not need 24mpx 98 percent of the time. But it's use for this type of camera can and will go beyond the events only category. Believe me I have had clients take a PR shot up to complete wall size with a M8 and it was not pretty.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    The old question of how many MP you need - right?

    You can answer this very easily, consider 300dpi as the standard print resolution for high quality and then you can do the math yourself. With the H3DII and 50MP back you get 6132 x 8176 Pixel. This means with 300 dpi you can get up to 20.44 inch x 27.25 inch or 51.91 cm x 69.22 cm output size in print without any SW manipulation and upsampling.

    If you are happy with 150dpi, you can double this. Now one can argue, you easily can do upsampling in whatever SW (RIP, PS, etc) but any of these upsampling processes are adding artificial calculations to the image, so you finally do not get what you really took as photo. So at least for Fine Art Photography (and I assume the word ART implies real art) this is not the way to go - maybe for normal PR or advertising work this might be ok, although if I am the client and pay the photo, then I would ask for the highest quality if I belief I need it.

    Thus higher resolutions are always welcome and we currently see the trend towards the 6 micron sensors and 50 - 60MP backs. And this will not be the end of course as we will see further enhanced sensors with maybe 80 or even 90MP for MF. And then take into account that we are still working with rectangle not square, so if good old 6x6 is supported by sensors, we will then be in the range of 100 to 120MP.

    Too much, too high data volumes? Just think back 5-10 years and the computers we used to have then and not being able to think about today's file sizes and storage needs. But today Terabyte storage is nothing and thus in 5-10 years from now we will be in the range of Exabyte and then these data volumes produced by 100MP backs or cameras will be just a joke.

    So what is Leica doing? They today limit themselves to a format which can capture 37MP on 30 mm x 45 mm, using current 6 micro sensor technologies. Although the current evolution already points clearly ahead of this! I call this not very wise at least and it ensures that their S system - however great it will finally be - will be a "only mee too" systm because of these limitations. Which might be the perfect system for many, despite of the high price tag of course

    I for myself better jump on the real MF train with a 39MF promotion from Hasselblad, or maybe even a 50MP back if I can bring the money together, be happy for the next 3-4 years with that solution and then upgrade to the next technology level in MF with maybe 120MP And this is what I have learned from the past digital photography years - you need to be ready for a major upgrade every 3 - 5 years if you want to use the state of the art product line.

    We have an exciting future in front of us
    Last edited by ptomsu; 28th February 2009 at 23:00.

  49. #149
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
    I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.



    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    The old question of how many MP you need - right?

    You can answer this very easily, consider 300dpi as the standard print resolution for high quality and then you can do the math yourself. With the H3DII and 50MP back you get 6132 x 8176 Pixel. This means with 300 dpi you can get up to 20.44 inch x 27.25 inch or 51.91 cm x 69.22 cm output size in print without any SW manipulation and upsampling.

    If you are happy with 150dpi, you can double this. Now one can argue, you easily can do upsampling in whatever SW (RIP, PS, etc) but any of these upsampling processes are adding artificial calculations to the image, so you finally do not get what you really took as photo. So at least for Fine Art Photography (and I assume the word ART implies real art) this is not the way to go - maybe for normal PR or advertising work this might be ok, although if I am the client and pay the photo, then I would ask for the highest quality if I belief I need it.

    Thus higher resolutions are always welcome and we currently see the trend towards the 6 micron sensors and 50 - 60MP backs. And this will not be the end of course as we will see further enhanced sensors with maybe 80 or even 90MP for MF. And then take into account that we are still working with rectangle not square, so if good old 6x6 is supported by sensors, we will then be in the range of 100 to 120MP.

    Too much, too high data volumes? Just think back 5-10 years and the computers we used to have then and not being able to think about today's file sizes and storage needs. But today Terabyte storage is nothing and thus in 5-10 years from now we will be in the range of Exabyte and then these data volumes produced by 100MP backs or cameras will be just a joke.

    So what is Leica doing? They today limit themselves to a format which can capture 37MP on 30 mm x 45 mm, using current 6 micro sensor technologies. Although the current evolution already points clearly ahead of this! I call this not very wise at least and it ensures that their S system - however great it will finally be - will be a "only mee too" systm because of these limitations. Which might be the perfect system for many, despite of the high price tag of course

    I for myself better jump on the real MF train with a 39MF promotion from Hasselblad, or maybe even a 50MP back if I can bring the money together, be happy for the next 3-4 years with that solution and then upgrade to the next technology level in MF with maybe 120MP And this is what I have learned from the past digital photography years - you need to be ready for a major upgrade every 3 - 5 years if you want to use the state of the art product line.

    We have an exciting future in front of us

  50. #150
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Oxide Blu View Post
    Just as a reminder, there is nothing going on with event photography that cannot be covered with a cell phone camera. You do have a cell phone, don't you?!?
    Not even close to true.

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