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Thread: So, where is the Leica S2?

  1. #151
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
    I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.
    But one of the greater limitations of the S2 is the physical size of the area for that sensor. If the 6 micron "threshold" changes to an even smaller size without compromising things too much, then the fixed size area of the S2 might be able to accommodate a higher MP sensor. The same is actually true for the other MF backs, but they just have more potential area to play with up to 6x6. So while 50-60MP may be needed by a few, and be very attractive by a lot more folks, it still comes down to "is 37MP enough" for most applications? That is the gamble Leica is taking on right now. Personally, I think it will satisfy a lot of folks, both shooters and clients. If the tech develops more, and higher density sensors come along, as you say, Leica may only have to release a new camera....hopefully at the competitive price of the new backs that may keep coming.

    LJ

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Kodak predicted some while ago that a 5mikrometer-pixel-pitch is the maximum with the technologies we can expect within the next years (= same actual pixel size as today to deliver same noise/DR by increasing fill-rate).
    Schneider/Rodenstock guarentee an acceptable MTF up to this pixel-pitch (5mikrometers = 100lp/mm!) with their best designs (HR/Digitars). Delivering 100lp/mm with good contrast over a large image circle is not an easy task!

    So we can expect to hit the resolution-maximum for the next decade @54MP with the S-System and 91MP with 645-full-frame.

    When I want really GREAT IQ, I'll take 8x10inch Velvia with over 500MP real resolution... ;-)

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I think the issue is going to be more about the performance in other areas than resolution. 37mp with Leica lenses is going to suit almost any client until they start inventing new ways of using the file that requires something bigger. 37mp is just so much resolution that it is enough for almost any practical purpose, especially combined with excellent lenses. I think the real test will be -- is the camera reliable, well-priced and easy to work with? Is the service quick and effective? Does ISO 800+ look great? I think those questions will be more important than sheer resolution for most customers, as 37mp is already gigantic.
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  4. #154
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    To my knowledge, Leica has not clarified this, but I'm not convinced the S line is limited to 30x45mm sensors. If one makes the assumption that the S lenses cover a 645 frame (56x42mm), then there is room to expand the size of the sensor along with the resolution in future models.

    There are a few reasons to believe the S2's sensor size isn't the final word for the line, including:
    * cost limitatations (yield drops with larger sensor size)
    * Phase partnership (would Phase really want a 645FF 37MP imager out there competing with the P45+ on resolution and the P65+ on size?)

    If 45x30 is the size of the lineup, why would the standard lens be 70mm?? Diagonal of 45x30 is only 54mm, but the diagonal of 56x42mm is... whaddaya know? 70mm.

    Also, Leica's MTF charts are oddly specified on the X-axis. Like they're ready to be scaled to a different size.

    And what good would the rumored Leica lenses be on the Phase platform if they don't cover the 49x37mm sensor?

    Nothing definite, but just some thoughts to throw into the mix.

    -Brad

    Quote Originally Posted by t_streng View Post
    The do not limit the system to a certain resolution, only to a sensor size.
    I dont think a buying a new digital back to be much less money than buy a new ("updated") S2-body.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    People - dont get sucked into marketing BS. The economics for the S2 dont add up.

    You don't buy a MF lens for wide open capability - you buy it for quality @ F8-16, if it is fast @ wide open thats a bonus at the margin.

    If you want wide you go Rodenstock or Schneider - if you want tele you go 35mm format. If you want high ISO you buy 35mm. If you want SLR handling you buy 35mm. If you want architecture or product or reproduction you buy Sinar/Arca/lnhoff etc etc

    The S2 is a solution looking for a problem, an answer to a question that no one is asking except Leica nutz.

    I dont think ANY MF maker is quacking in their boots - if anything I would imagine that current economic condiitons as well as curent MF pricing and current declared new backs - is making Leica not so comfortable.

    The Dentists and Bankers and Doctors and fondlers will be their customer base - along with a tiny minority of self styled pros - who like bragging rights.

  6. #156
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Different strokes, I guess.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    For sure Bradley . I am no longer interested - at all. So ends my 'contribution' to the debate -

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    ...

    The S2 is a solution looking for a problem, an answer to a question that no one is asking except Leica nutz...

    The Dentists and Bankers and Doctors and fondlers will be their customer base - along with a tiny minority of self styled pros - who like bragging rights.
    That's harsh especially the "Leica nutz" bit but I gotta agree with you, Pete.

    Does the market for bragging rights even exists today? The stock market pretty much wiped it out.

    The S2 is either going to be all things to all people or neither fish nor fowl. Somehow, I fear that it is the latter.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    People - dont get sucked into marketing BS. The economics for the S2 dont add up.

    You don't buy a MF lens for wide open capability - you buy it for quality @ F8-16, if it is fast @ wide open thats a bonus at the margin.
    Even if many lenses and many purposes peoploe buy MF lenses for f8-16 quality, there are still people using a Zeiss110/2.0 or Rollei 180/2.8 or Mamiya 150/2.8 or Hassy 100/110mm and I would assume not only for using it at f8 and f16.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Time will tell but today's world, in many ways, requires flexibility which means either one tool that can do everything (impossible) or one tool that can do many things and leave some $$$ for some extra tools.

    A digital back can do more than an S2 because it can be used on different platforms, its sensor is easier to clean, its tethering is proven and it packs into a small pouch for carrying on a plane. Being the most expensive part of your kit, it leaves $$$ for a spare body or an additional camera, say a DSLR. It also has a solid resell/ trade-in value when the time comes to change.

    A DSLR can do more than an S2 because it is faster, has (most likely) better high iso, has plenty of good zoom lenses, has on-board Live Video, it's weather proof (proven) and its lenses can be used on a lesser, backup body. It is also likely to have a solid resell value when the time comes to change.

    Saying that, the S2 might do just about everything for its target market(s).

    Yair
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by yaya View Post
    ..

    A digital back can do more than an S2 because it can be used on different platforms, its sensor is easier to clean, its tethering is proven and it packs into a small pouch for carrying on a plane. Being the most expensive part of your kit, it leaves $$$ for a spare body or an additional camera, say a DSLR. It also has a solid resell/ trade-in value when the time comes to change...

    Yair
    I am not so sure about the solid resale value of digital backs. How much was the Aptus22 when it was launched and how much is its value today? Based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it is about a $20 000.00 loss between 2005 and 2009. That makes about $5000 each year.

    OK, here comes that "what about the savings on film and processing" bit. I may make more shots shooting digitally but the number of keepers I get remain the same. In other words, I may choose to press the shutter more often with digital but my clients require the same number of shots as before. So in terms of the number of shots I have to deliver, shooting film makes it cheaper as I don't see the need to increase my shutter count by 100 times if I know what I am doing.

    As an aside, the "look how much I am saving on film and processing" is the biggest red herring justification for shooting digitally because many times photographers forget that they do NOT have to press the shutter so many times more to get the shot they want. You see a scatter-shot approach ironically in those who do not know their craft and for this crowd, shooting digitally may make it cheaper.

    The illogical conclusion is to hit the shutter one million times or more and then calculate the equivalent cost in film and processing to justify an expensive digital back purchase. Just because you can does not mean you must. Shooting more frames does not make one a better photographer. It just makes one appear more industrious.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    I am not so sure about the solid resale value of digital backs. How much was the Aptus22 when it was launched and how much is its value today? Based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it is about a $20 000.00 loss between 2005 and 2009. That makes about $5000 each year.
    There are many ways to juggle the numbers....in some countries the back can be written off after 3 years so selling it for $10K will show a clean $10K profit...
    When trading an Aptus 22 now for a new Aptus-II 10 it is worth approx. $15K which is more than its resale value and again it can be already written off...so the actual cost of the new back is less than $9K...

    OK, here comes that "what about the savings on film and processing" bit. I may make more shots shooting digitally but the number of keepers I get remain the same. In other words, I may choose to press the shutter more often with digital but my clients require the same number of shots as before. So in terms of the number of shots I have to deliver, shooting film makes it cheaper as I don't see the need to increase my shutter count by 100 times if I know what I am doing.

    As an aside, the "look how much I am saving on film and processing" is the biggest red herring justification for shooting digitally because many times photographers forget that they do NOT have to press the shutter so many times more to get the shot they want. You see a scatter-shot approach ironically in those who do not know their craft and for this crowd, shooting digitally may make it cheaper.

    The illogical conclusion is to hit the shutter one million times or more and then calculate the equivalent cost in film and processing to justify an expensive digital back purchase. Just because you can does not mean you must. Shooting more frames does not make one a better photographer. It just makes one appear more industrious.
    In a perfect world you would hit the shutter x number of times for an X number of keepers, be it digital or film (with film it'll be a bit more since you cannot deliver a polaroid)

    Again there are many ways to look at it and you also have to look at the scanning/ retouching time+costs and who carries them.

    But anyway the S2 is digital so shooting film on it (or with its lenses) is not an option. Using your H1/ AFD/ RZ/ AFi/ 500CM/ Contax/ ETRSi/ 680 lenses with film/ however, still is...

    Yair
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    To cut to the chase ... who wouldn't love to have a 37 meg near Medium Format sensored focal/leaf shutter camera with Leica quality optics sitting in their gear vault? I sure the heck would.

    But as a supplement, not a replacement. It replaces nothing. It can't replace my Nikon/Sony for what I use that gear for. And it can't replace my MFD system which I can use on multiple platforms including my full featured T/S Rollei Xact2 sporting Digital APO lenses that are second to none. That's not to say that there aren't specialist out there for whom this system will do all they need done. I'm not one of them. And many so called "specialists" are altering their business plan to diversify in order to survive ... so neither are they. "Leica" and "Survival" is a financial non sequitur wrapped in a conundrum.

    So, I go all the way back to my original lament ... Leica is launching this wonderful supplemental system in the midst of the most crippling financial disaster in my lifetime. 2 years ago, heck maybe even one year ago, I would have already pre-ordered this entire system. Now, priorities have seriously shifted, and not just for me ... trust me on that.

    I had money earmarked for gear purchases that would have easily covered the S2 and 4 lenses even at an aggressive price point. I used much of it to buy out my Volvo CX90 lease, part of slimming down my monthly overhead nut.

    If money losens up in my case, then the competition for this S2 system would be a 60 meg MFDSLR to replace my 39 meg one ... which would provide a bit more sensor area for use on the view camera along with even more resolution.

    However, as the economy seems to be getting worse, my next back will most likely be 100 meg

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    100 meg,
    I sort of feel that way too, if there are any back makers to buy it from..
    We live in challenging times.
    -bob

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    I am not so sure about the solid resale value of digital backs. How much was the Aptus22 when it was launched and how much is its value today? Based on my back-of-the-envelope calculations, it is about a $20 000.00 loss between 2005 and 2009. That makes about $5000 each year.

    OK, here comes that "what about the savings on film and processing" bit. I may make more shots shooting digitally but the number of keepers I get remain the same. In other words, I may choose to press the shutter more often with digital but my clients require the same number of shots as before. So in terms of the number of shots I have to deliver, shooting film makes it cheaper as I don't see the need to increase my shutter count by 100 times if I know what I am doing.

    As an aside, the "look how much I am saving on film and processing" is the biggest red herring justification for shooting digitally because many times photographers forget that they do NOT have to press the shutter so many times more to get the shot they want. You see a scatter-shot approach ironically in those who do not know their craft and for this crowd, shooting digitally may make it cheaper.

    The illogical conclusion is to hit the shutter one million times or more and then calculate the equivalent cost in film and processing to justify an expensive digital back purchase. Just because you can does not mean you must. Shooting more frames does not make one a better photographer. It just makes one appear more industrious.
    IMO, film left the equation years ago for most professional work (except in some special cases). No one wants to pay for film and processing plus upwards of $70 a scan ... which for any type of volumn work is out of the question. 100 shots for a catalog can add up to 5 to 7K alone. Not to mention that clients want the stuff NOW ... and sure the hell aren't interested at all in re-shoots!

    Instead, like many pro shooters, we charge a digital capture fee which goes toward paying for the gear. Even at a measley $300. per day, a $30K MFD camera is paid for in 100 jobs ... spread that out over a 3 year upgrade cycle and it comes to about 34 or so days of rental fees a year. And that's not even factoring in that the back isn't completely worthless at the end of the 3 years. So, considering that resale conservatively, you probably only need 22 or 23 rental days a year ... or about two a month on average. If business slows down then the upgrade cycle extends to 4 years. ROI baby, ROI !!!!

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    100 meg,
    I sort of feel that way too, if there are any back makers to buy it from..
    We live in challenging times.
    -bob
    Well BOB, right now a 100 meg back is way over the horizon ... right where I like it to be since I wouldn't buy it if it did exist ... any more than the S2 even if it was available tomorrow morning.

    Hopefully, Mr. 100 Meg Solution is way out there in the future walking lock step with Mr. Economic Recovery.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Amen, lets hope so.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by georgl View Post

    When I want really GREAT IQ, I'll take 8x10inch Velvia with over 500MP real resolution... ;-)
    VERY TRUE!!!!

    This is actually one step I am considering, buying now a cheap Hasselbald for film with some cheap but great glass (should be between (5k - 7k$) and use my Flextight X5 to do high resolution scans.

    This will bring highest resolution, low addiional investment and great satisfaction

    And then in 4-5 years we will see where digital MF has arrived. And what can then be bought at a reasonably cheap price - say 50MP for 3k$

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    That's harsh especially the "Leica nutz" bit but I gotta agree with you, Pete.

    Does the market for bragging rights even exists today? The stock market pretty much wiped it out.

    The S2 is either going to be all things to all people or neither fish nor fowl. Somehow, I fear that it is the latter.
    Although I am basically a big Leica fan, I could not agree more with your words!

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    What Marc says is right though, instead of charging the client film and processing, you're charging 'Digital Capture Fee' to cover the depreciation talked about here and also your post time. There shouldn't be any 'loss' other than bad business practice discounting the value of said depreciation and post time. For a business, depreciation is tax deductable which together with the digital capture fee should negate any supposed loss. Oh, and by the time you've paid off your equipment, it's still earning you that capture fee which was not the case with film. Now some will say, 'yeah but the digital upgrade cycle' forgetting that their equipment still has resale or trade in value even once it's fully paid off. My present gear still has some of my very first camera (AE-1) embedded in it, however minute, the investment is still paying for itself long after the clients paid for it in the first place.

    What muddies the water is when expensive upgrades are made for equipment that cannot be justified by current charges to the client and the client is not paying for your equipment within the framework of a pricing structure. At that point the depreciation is going to hit hard. I think that this could be very true at present given the plateu reached in the high end equipment upgrade cycle. Unless Marc's clients are paying more for a 100 megapixel back, why not just stick with his H3D-39? If they were demanding higher quality but not paying more then that would be something else, a problem with the industry (it is), if they are doing neither then why would he bother?

    Of course this doesn't help amatuers but then it becomes comparible to high end cars which lose about the same amount and the depreciation is rarely offset against tax (outside of company cars of course). When you buy the Merc you know what it will be worth in 3 years time, why should a Phase P45+ or whatever be any different? It's a luxury toy and those come at a staggering price and they depreciate horribly fast.
    Last edited by Ben Rubinstein; 2nd March 2009 at 04:45.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Rubinstein View Post
    What Marc says is right though, instead of charging the client film and processing, you're charging 'Digital Capture Fee' to cover the depreciation talked about here and also your post time. There shouldn't be any 'loss' other than bad business practice discounting the value of said depreciation and post time. For a business depreciation is tax deductable which together with the digital capture fee should negate any supposed loss. Oh, and by the time you've paid off your equipment, it's still earning you that capture fee which was not the case with film. Now some will say, 'yeah but the digital upgrade cycle' forgetting that their equipment still has resale or trade in value even once it's fully paid off. My present gear still has some of my very first camera (AE-1) embedded in it...
    Thanks Ben, I was trying to say the same things without mentioning "bad business practice"
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Al Hakefak Yair...
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Oh well, thanks for the lesson in good business practice, Yair. Due to my lack of good business practice, I shall stay with film for anything larger than 24mmx36mm. The equipment is paid for and my clients don't mind.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    Oh well, thanks for the lesson in good business practice, Yair. Due to my lack of good business practice, I shall stay with film for anything larger than 24mmx36mm. The equipment is paid for and my clients don't mind.
    Forrest I'm glad to hear that this model works for you and I know more than one (successful) photographer who will support this model.

    Still the subject in hand was the S2 and not film, mind you...

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Forrest Black View Post
    Oh well, thanks for the lesson in good business practice, Yair. Due to my lack of good business practice, I shall stay with film for anything larger than 24mmx36mm. The equipment is paid for and my clients don't mind.
    Well, the theory of good business practice is all well and good ... providing you have the business rolling in at the rate you need to pay for the expensive gear.

    At this particular time, and economic environment, Forrest could be considered a business "genius". The difference between film and digital right NOW is that the digital costs were paid up front with the prospect of fees to help pay for it over 3 years or so. With film, the capture expenses are incurred ONLY when you have work that pays for it.

    BIG FREAKING DIFFERENCE.

    To elaborate, right now in this economic climate if I could have back the over-all 250K investment in my photographic business, and just shot weddings with pair of D700s and a few zooms and kept my F6, Hassey 203FE, and 949 Imacon for personal film work, I'd do it in a NY heatbeat. I'd bet I'm not alone in this perspective
    Last edited by fotografz; 3rd March 2009 at 01:30.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Yes, the amount I use my digital back is not nearly as high as I expected...it is just too slow to shoot people with natural light here. ISO 25 (marked as 50) and a f/4 lens does not cut it in the arctic light. Luckily I got it for comparatively little and already had the lenses, but still I am kicking myself since I shot basically everything between September and today with either a D3 or a 203FE.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Which back is that, Stuart?
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    54LV -- I am not sure if it is just my particular back, but when exposed according to a meter or the camera meter, the resulting file is 1 full stop (or more) underexposed, so the ISO 50 is actually 25. It has beautiful results when properly exposed, but ISO 25 in daylight here is just too slow to get a good exposure. If you crank up the ISO, then the noise makes it such that there is not much point shooting a medium format back, as 35mm digital results in much cleaner files.

    Don't get me wrong, it has great files when there is enough light, but more often then not I just leave it home because the extra 2 stops in ISO 100 film or the extra 3-6 stops on the D3 just make them so much more useful. Shooting someone at f/4 and 1/8th is a lot different than shooting at f/2.8 and 1/250th.
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  29. #179
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I'll be heading over to the Leica booth today and spending a lot of quality time with the S2. This afternoon I have a private meeting with the product manager. Be sure to check my blog later today for updates.

    If you have a question or anything you want me to check out, just leave a comment on the blog or send me a PM here. I'll be receiving those comments on my BlackBerry.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Thanks David,
    I look forward to reading your comments.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    I can second your observation. My 54LV loves light and I usually expose I stop more. When I bought my first eMotion 22 four years ago the lowest ISO was 25. Than I upgraded to the 54LV and the chip behaves the same regardless of the nominal ISO they (Sinar) make us to believe.
    My interest in the S2 is motivated by the better sensor response and higher ISO they claimed the S2 would have.

    Yevgeny
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    54LV -- I am not sure if it is just my particular back, but when exposed according to a meter or the camera meter, the resulting file is 1 full stop (or more) underexposed, so the ISO 50 is actually 25. It has beautiful results when properly exposed, but ISO 25 in daylight here is just too slow to get a good exposure. If you crank up the ISO, then the noise makes it such that there is not much point shooting a medium format back, as 35mm digital results in much cleaner files.

    .

  32. #182
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    So, where is the Leica S2?

  33. #183
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Where should it be? There are prototypes at PMA, and the release is scheduled for sometime this summer.
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  34. #184
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by carstenw View Post
    Where should it be? There are prototypes at PMA, and the release is scheduled for sometime this summer.
    There were prototypes at Photokina in September 2008 and the release was scheduled for sometime this summer…

    Servicing locations and turnaround, back-up arrangements, rental outlets, pricing...?

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    ... Some time this summer. Why do you expect them to pre-announce these? In my experience this is not the way things work.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    They should ship when ready and not a moment before.
    They took it on the chin with a too early shipped M8 and I think that it would be VERY bad for Leica to repeat that experience.
    -non

  37. #187
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    [QUOTE=carstenw;80909]Why do you expect them to pre-announce these?QUOTE]

    Why not, they are apparently targeting the pro market, why pre-announce specifications and not pre-announce the equally important information that pros want to hear?

    Phase One customers know the levels of servicing, servicing locations/turnaround, back-up arrangements, rental outlets etc. they wiil be getting on forth-coming product. Same goes for Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon...

  38. #188
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    "Why not"? Because no one does it that way. The early preview of the S2 prototypes was already exceedingly unusual. When was the last time you saw a 1Ds3 or D3x prototype one year in advance? For the early A900 prototypes, how many details to the service and rental programs did Sony release? How much did Phase leak about the rental program before they released their very first back? How much did Hasselblad leak? Answer to all of the above: none. The extent of the early info has always been the prototype camera.

    I repeat: I have no idea why you expect early leaks. Leica said some time in the summer. Expect it then.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Well I think we can make educated guesses about service and rental.
    Service will be in New Jersey, Solms and maybe the other major Leica offices like Tokyo, UK and so on. I don't think there is any reason to expect that you will be able to service this complex of a camera anywhere outside the major hubs. This is also the case with other MFDB manufactures -- Hasselblad will service in Redmond WA, and if it can't be done there it will go back to Sweden/Denmark. You can't just walk into a mom and pop service center in Schenectady and expect them to fix the back. The turnaround time and loaner availability is another story. They will probably sell different service packages like other medium format digital back makers -- you can buy the package with the loaner and the 2 day turnaround if that is a business necessity for you, but that bill will not be extended to customers for whom that is not as high a priority.

    As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. You can probably expect it at boutique shops like the Photo Village before it shows up on the shelves at Calumet and Adorama.

    Pricing will be announced when the camera is ready -- it is a huge gamble announcing pricing far in advance. 1. You are committed to the price you say, so if the euro, dollar or pound goes crazy, that can throw off your calculation dramatically. Then if you have to adjust the price up, people will scream bloody murder. Also, who knows where the economy will be by then. I am sure they will price it as high as they dare without putting off too many potential customers...just like any other product.
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  40. #190
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    ...

    As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. ...
    The S2 is supposedly targeted at professionals, remember. Pros will only buy into it if the rental houses carry it and rental houses will only carry it if the professionals want it. So it is a Catch-22.

    The best thing Leica could do in the US is to appoint MAC as its S2 distributor.

  41. #191
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    carstenw, you're right, I'm impatient.

    The danger with this kind of marketing is that potential customers become impatient. Sadly my patience has run out.

  42. #192
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    Well I think we can make educated guesses about service and rental.
    Service will be in New Jersey, Solms and maybe the other major Leica offices like Tokyo, UK and so on. I don't think there is any reason to expect that you will be able to service this complex of a camera anywhere outside the major hubs. This is also the case with other MFDB manufactures -- Hasselblad will service in Redmond WA, and if it can't be done there it will go back to Sweden/Denmark.
    Thankfully I live within 20 miles of an excellent Hasselblad service centre in the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. You can probably expect it at boutique shops like the Photo Village before it shows up on the shelves at Calumet and Adorama.
    Jesus, is this really how rental works in your part of the world. Thankfully here in the UK rental is handled by main dealers.

  43. #193
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    carstenw, you're right, I'm impatient.

    The danger with this kind of marketing is that potential customers become impatient. Sadly my patience has run out.
    Il'est mort.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    Thankfully I live within 20 miles of an excellent Hasselblad service centre in the UK.



    Jesus, is this really how rental works in your part of the world. Thankfully here in the UK rental is handled by main dealers.
    Well, it seems very clear that the S2 is not for you! But anyway, if you lived within New York city limits, you would be 20 miles from the main Leica service center, but 2500 miles from the Hasselblad digital service bureau (the camera bureau is right near the Leica one). Either way, it is not something that will affect everyone equally.

    As for rental -- yes, it is primarily run by main dealers like Calumet and Adorama. The reason I suggested that they might not have the camera immediately is because it is a brand new system. People like the Photo Village (also in NYC) who specialize in Leica but also rent are more likely to offer it for rental right away since it is their bread and butter type of product. Calumet and Adorama may see how it sells first before they begin to offer it. Then again, you might see it for rental quickly at Calumet and Samy's (LA)...they rented the Hy6 almost immediately.

    But anyway it always sounds to me like Leica is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People complained for years that they were not offering anything innovative or risky, and now that they are, those same people are proclaiming it to be a risky proposition and likely to be DOA. I think we should at least SEE what the product is like and how it is priced when it is available.
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  45. #195
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    carstenw, you're right, I'm impatient.

    The danger with this kind of marketing is that potential customers become impatient. Sadly my patience has run out.
    Well, I would love to know the details too, and I feel impatient, but Leica will not release anything earlier than that because of people like us. They will release when they are ready, and there almost certainly won't be any unplanned leaks in advance. They are very secretive.

    If you need to make purchase decisions in the time-frame of this summer, then I doubt the Leica S2 would be a good bet anyway. I expect things to run well, but counting on it is another matter. If the service doesn't function and something goes wrong, it could affect someone's livelihood. I wouldn't bet like that.

    The more I hear about the camera, the more I am tempted to somehow find the money for it. I already have a relatively complete Contax 645 system, and wanted to buy a Sinar back for it, but I will move very cautiously in that direction now, given the sad Franke & Heidecke news.

    I expect that Jenoptik have taken many precautions, knowing that F&H was unstable financially, which was no secret. One way they took precautions was to ensure that they held all the rights, even though F&H almost certainly designed the system. The rooms and machines used for manufacturing were rented, so that end shouldn't pose problems either. I expect that one of the remaining precautions is that they already had someone else in mind to take over manufacturing in case F&H should fail, but they have only a limited window to make this happen before people start losing faith in the system, and with it being so new, this could prove fatal. I hope that they come through. It would be a shame for the only modern 6x6 on the market to fail so soon.

    Anyhow, if something goes wrong with Jenoptik and Sinar, I can either get a Phase back, or think about a Leica S2. I am not terribly keen on Phase, to be honest. I respect their backs and their software, but find their business methods only slightly more savory than Hasselblad's. Leica is in my mind pretty much beyond reproach. They have had short-comings but it is clear to see that they always try to find ethical solutions. The whole DMR/Imacon disaster they handled by taking over firmware writing, and way beyond the point where it made economic sense to do so, they released an update. With the M8 problems, they gave out free filters, and updated firmware to handle the IQ problems, even if the workflow suffered somewhat. Each time there has been problems, and aren't there always, for every company, but they have come through and found acceptable solutions for the vast majority of their customers. I believe that they will make the S2 a success.
    Last edited by carstenw; 4th March 2009 at 10:47.
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    You guys are FAR too serious!

    Looking forward to the early adopters singing praises loudly from the rooftops! I am thinking - to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof - you know..."IF i were a rich man a dadadadadaada etc etc "

    I want videos of the cartons being openned and the white gloves going on to each hand - lets do it right - total fetishistic symphony required with Wagner in the background. Get some of the Teutonic block head type models to pose using it to make snaps of their castles. I loved that marketing campaign - bring it back!

    Segue to 1000's of pros dumping their Hasselblads and Phases One backs into local garbage bin as they CUE up jostling each other, nAY kicking and screaming at each other..to buy the sleek, sexy balck S2. Pan out to poor amateurs soaking up used MFD backs at prices LOWER than CaNikon DSLR's whilst wistfully dreaming about - the best.

  47. #197
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You guys are FAR too serious!

    Looking forward to the early adopters singing praises loudly from the rooftops! I am thinking - to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof - you know..."IF i were a rich man a dadadadadaada etc etc "

    I want videos of the cartons being openned and the white gloves going on to each hand - lets do it right - total fetishistic symphony required with Wagner in the background. Get some of the Teutonic block head type models to pose using it to make snaps of their castles. I loved that marketing campaign - bring it back!

    Segue to 1000's of pros dumping their Hasselblads and Phases One backs into local garbage bin as they CUE up jostling each other, nAY kicking and screaming at each other..to buy the sleek, sexy balck S2. Pan out to poor amateurs soaking up used MFD backs at prices LOWER than CaNikon DSLR's whilst wistfully dreaming about - the best.


    Talk is indeed cheap. When it comes time to shell out the cash, while burning a pile of lost cash on existing systems, will be when the rubber meets the road.

    This economy does sober you up when it comes to the reality of what you need verses what you want.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Too true mate - and when two gearheads like us start takin it easy ...what else is there to say? -

  49. #199
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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To cut to the chase ... who wouldn't love to have a 37 meg near Medium Format sensored focal/leaf shutter camera with Leica quality optics sitting in their gear vault? I sure the heck would.
    I have something very close...an Aptus 75S (ok it's only 33 megapixels) on a Contax 645, Leica quality Zeiss glass, focal plane shutter, and the ability to use film if I want to.

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    Re: So, where is the Leica S2?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    To cut to the chase ... who wouldn't love to have a 37 meg near Medium Format sensored focal/leaf shutter camera with Leica quality optics sitting in their gear vault? I sure the heck would.

    But as a supplement, not a replacement. It replaces nothing. It can't replace my Nikon/Sony for what I use that gear for. And it can't replace my MFD system which I can use on multiple platforms including my full featured T/S Rollei Xact2 sporting Digital APO lenses that are second to none. That's not to say that there aren't specialist out there for whom this system will do all they need done. I'm not one of them. And many so called "specialists" are altering their business plan to diversify in order to survive ... so neither are they. "Leica" and "Survival" is a financial non sequitur wrapped in a conundrum.
    And that is the worrying part: the S2 is as much needed as a third leg. It replaces nothing and is a nice-to-have rather than a need-to-have. Just whom is Leica going to sell to? Not the fanboys and blowhards who do not have the money. Look at the Hy6 as a chastening example. Too many who say "good idea" that did not translate into sales.
    Last edited by Forrest Black; 4th March 2009 at 21:57.

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