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So, where is the Leica S2?

I can second your observation. My 54LV loves light and I usually expose I stop more. When I bought my first eMotion 22 four years ago the lowest ISO was 25. Than I upgraded to the 54LV and the chip behaves the same regardless of the nominal ISO they (Sinar) make us to believe.
My interest in the S2 is motivated by the better sensor response and higher ISO they claimed the S2 would have.

Yevgeny
54LV -- I am not sure if it is just my particular back, but when exposed according to a meter or the camera meter, the resulting file is 1 full stop (or more) underexposed, so the ISO 50 is actually 25. It has beautiful results when properly exposed, but ISO 25 in daylight here is just too slow to get a good exposure. If you crank up the ISO, then the noise makes it such that there is not much point shooting a medium format back, as 35mm digital results in much cleaner files.

.
 

carstenw

Active member
Where should it be? There are prototypes at PMA, and the release is scheduled for sometime this summer.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Where should it be? There are prototypes at PMA, and the release is scheduled for sometime this summer.
There were prototypes at Photokina in September 2008 and the release was scheduled for sometime this summer…

Servicing locations and turnaround, back-up arrangements, rental outlets, pricing...?
 

carstenw

Active member
... Some time this summer. Why do you expect them to pre-announce these? In my experience this is not the way things work.
 

Bob

Administrator
Staff member
They should ship when ready and not a moment before.
They took it on the chin with a too early shipped M8 and I think that it would be VERY bad for Leica to repeat that experience.
-non
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Why do you expect them to pre-announce these?QUOTE]

Why not, they are apparently targeting the pro market, why pre-announce specifications and not pre-announce the equally important information that pros want to hear?

Phase One customers know the levels of servicing, servicing locations/turnaround, back-up arrangements, rental outlets etc. they wiil be getting on forth-coming product. Same goes for Hasselblad, Nikon, Canon...
 

carstenw

Active member
"Why not"? Because no one does it that way. The early preview of the S2 prototypes was already exceedingly unusual. When was the last time you saw a 1Ds3 or D3x prototype one year in advance? For the early A900 prototypes, how many details to the service and rental programs did Sony release? How much did Phase leak about the rental program before they released their very first back? How much did Hasselblad leak? Answer to all of the above: none. The extent of the early info has always been the prototype camera.

I repeat: I have no idea why you expect early leaks. Leica said some time in the summer. Expect it then.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Well I think we can make educated guesses about service and rental.
Service will be in New Jersey, Solms and maybe the other major Leica offices like Tokyo, UK and so on. I don't think there is any reason to expect that you will be able to service this complex of a camera anywhere outside the major hubs. This is also the case with other MFDB manufactures -- Hasselblad will service in Redmond WA, and if it can't be done there it will go back to Sweden/Denmark. You can't just walk into a mom and pop service center in Schenectady and expect them to fix the back. The turnaround time and loaner availability is another story. They will probably sell different service packages like other medium format digital back makers -- you can buy the package with the loaner and the 2 day turnaround if that is a business necessity for you, but that bill will not be extended to customers for whom that is not as high a priority.

As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. You can probably expect it at boutique shops like the Photo Village before it shows up on the shelves at Calumet and Adorama.

Pricing will be announced when the camera is ready -- it is a huge gamble announcing pricing far in advance. 1. You are committed to the price you say, so if the euro, dollar or pound goes crazy, that can throw off your calculation dramatically. Then if you have to adjust the price up, people will scream bloody murder. Also, who knows where the economy will be by then. I am sure they will price it as high as they dare without putting off too many potential customers...just like any other product.
 

Forrest Black

New member
...

As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. ...
The S2 is supposedly targeted at professionals, remember. Pros will only buy into it if the rental houses carry it and rental houses will only carry it if the professionals want it. So it is a Catch-22.

The best thing Leica could do in the US is to appoint MAC as its S2 distributor.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
carstenw, you're right, I'm impatient.

The danger with this kind of marketing is that potential customers become impatient. Sadly my patience has run out.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Well I think we can make educated guesses about service and rental.
Service will be in New Jersey, Solms and maybe the other major Leica offices like Tokyo, UK and so on. I don't think there is any reason to expect that you will be able to service this complex of a camera anywhere outside the major hubs. This is also the case with other MFDB manufactures -- Hasselblad will service in Redmond WA, and if it can't be done there it will go back to Sweden/Denmark.
Thankfully I live within 20 miles of an excellent Hasselblad service centre in the UK.

As for rental houses -- I don't see how that has anything to do with Leica. When the camera is out, if they like it they will buy it. That's their choice and it is unlikely that Leica could create that sort of thing ahead of time, since this is a brand new product. I doubt the rental market will be that large to start. You can probably expect it at boutique shops like the Photo Village before it shows up on the shelves at Calumet and Adorama.
Jesus, is this really how rental works in your part of the world. Thankfully here in the UK rental is handled by main dealers.
 

Stuart Richardson

Active member
Thankfully I live within 20 miles of an excellent Hasselblad service centre in the UK.



Jesus, is this really how rental works in your part of the world. Thankfully here in the UK rental is handled by main dealers.
Well, it seems very clear that the S2 is not for you! But anyway, if you lived within New York city limits, you would be 20 miles from the main Leica service center, but 2500 miles from the Hasselblad digital service bureau (the camera bureau is right near the Leica one). Either way, it is not something that will affect everyone equally.

As for rental -- yes, it is primarily run by main dealers like Calumet and Adorama. The reason I suggested that they might not have the camera immediately is because it is a brand new system. People like the Photo Village (also in NYC) who specialize in Leica but also rent are more likely to offer it for rental right away since it is their bread and butter type of product. Calumet and Adorama may see how it sells first before they begin to offer it. Then again, you might see it for rental quickly at Calumet and Samy's (LA)...they rented the Hy6 almost immediately.

But anyway it always sounds to me like Leica is damned if they do and damned if they don't. People complained for years that they were not offering anything innovative or risky, and now that they are, those same people are proclaiming it to be a risky proposition and likely to be DOA. I think we should at least SEE what the product is like and how it is priced when it is available.
 

carstenw

Active member
carstenw, you're right, I'm impatient.

The danger with this kind of marketing is that potential customers become impatient. Sadly my patience has run out.
Well, I would love to know the details too, and I feel impatient, but Leica will not release anything earlier than that because of people like us. They will release when they are ready, and there almost certainly won't be any unplanned leaks in advance. They are very secretive.

If you need to make purchase decisions in the time-frame of this summer, then I doubt the Leica S2 would be a good bet anyway. I expect things to run well, but counting on it is another matter. If the service doesn't function and something goes wrong, it could affect someone's livelihood. I wouldn't bet like that.

The more I hear about the camera, the more I am tempted to somehow find the money for it. I already have a relatively complete Contax 645 system, and wanted to buy a Sinar back for it, but I will move very cautiously in that direction now, given the sad Franke & Heidecke news.

I expect that Jenoptik have taken many precautions, knowing that F&H was unstable financially, which was no secret. One way they took precautions was to ensure that they held all the rights, even though F&H almost certainly designed the system. The rooms and machines used for manufacturing were rented, so that end shouldn't pose problems either. I expect that one of the remaining precautions is that they already had someone else in mind to take over manufacturing in case F&H should fail, but they have only a limited window to make this happen before people start losing faith in the system, and with it being so new, this could prove fatal. I hope that they come through. It would be a shame for the only modern 6x6 on the market to fail so soon.

Anyhow, if something goes wrong with Jenoptik and Sinar, I can either get a Phase back, or think about a Leica S2. I am not terribly keen on Phase, to be honest. I respect their backs and their software, but find their business methods only slightly more savory than Hasselblad's. Leica is in my mind pretty much beyond reproach. They have had short-comings but it is clear to see that they always try to find ethical solutions. The whole DMR/Imacon disaster they handled by taking over firmware writing, and way beyond the point where it made economic sense to do so, they released an update. With the M8 problems, they gave out free filters, and updated firmware to handle the IQ problems, even if the workflow suffered somewhat. Each time there has been problems, and aren't there always, for every company, but they have come through and found acceptable solutions for the vast majority of their customers. I believe that they will make the S2 a success.
 
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PeterA

Well-known member
You guys are FAR too serious!

Looking forward to the early adopters singing praises loudly from the rooftops! I am thinking - to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof - you know..."IF i were a rich man a dadadadadaada etc etc "

I want videos of the cartons being openned and the white gloves going on to each hand - lets do it right - total fetishistic symphony required with Wagner in the background. Get some of the Teutonic block head type models to pose using it to make snaps of their castles. I loved that marketing campaign - bring it back!

Segue to 1000's of pros dumping their Hasselblads and Phases One backs into local garbage bin as they CUE up jostling each other, nAY kicking and screaming at each other..to buy the sleek, sexy balck S2. Pan out to poor amateurs soaking up used MFD backs at prices LOWER than CaNikon DSLR's whilst wistfully dreaming about - the best.:ROTFL::ROTFL:
 

fotografz

Well-known member
You guys are FAR too serious!

Looking forward to the early adopters singing praises loudly from the rooftops! I am thinking - to the tune of Fiddler on the Roof - you know..."IF i were a rich man a dadadadadaada etc etc "

I want videos of the cartons being openned and the white gloves going on to each hand - lets do it right - total fetishistic symphony required with Wagner in the background. Get some of the Teutonic block head type models to pose using it to make snaps of their castles. I loved that marketing campaign - bring it back!

Segue to 1000's of pros dumping their Hasselblads and Phases One backs into local garbage bin as they CUE up jostling each other, nAY kicking and screaming at each other..to buy the sleek, sexy balck S2. Pan out to poor amateurs soaking up used MFD backs at prices LOWER than CaNikon DSLR's whilst wistfully dreaming about - the best.:ROTFL::ROTFL:
:ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:

Talk is indeed cheap. When it comes time to shell out the cash, while burning a pile of lost cash on existing systems, will be when the rubber meets the road.

This economy does sober you up when it comes to the reality of what you need verses what you want.
 

PeterA

Well-known member
Too true mate - and when two gearheads like us start takin it easy ...what else is there to say? -:)
 
D

DougDolde

Guest
To cut to the chase ... who wouldn't love to have a 37 meg near Medium Format sensored focal/leaf shutter camera with Leica quality optics sitting in their gear vault? I sure the heck would.
I have something very close...an Aptus 75S (ok it's only 33 megapixels) on a Contax 645, Leica quality Zeiss glass, focal plane shutter, and the ability to use film if I want to.
 

Forrest Black

New member
To cut to the chase ... who wouldn't love to have a 37 meg near Medium Format sensored focal/leaf shutter camera with Leica quality optics sitting in their gear vault? I sure the heck would. :thumbs:

But as a supplement, not a replacement. It replaces nothing. It can't replace my Nikon/Sony for what I use that gear for. And it can't replace my MFD system which I can use on multiple platforms including my full featured T/S Rollei Xact2 sporting Digital APO lenses that are second to none. That's not to say that there aren't specialist out there for whom this system will do all they need done. I'm not one of them. And many so called "specialists" are altering their business plan to diversify in order to survive ... so neither are they. "Leica" and "Survival" is a financial non sequitur wrapped in a conundrum.
And that is the worrying part: the S2 is as much needed as a third leg. It replaces nothing and is a nice-to-have rather than a need-to-have. Just whom is Leica going to sell to? Not the fanboys and blowhards who do not have the money. Look at the Hy6 as a chastening example. Too many who say "good idea" that did not translate into sales.
 
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