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Thread: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    The difference is quite striking, even on an internet post. I'm a bit surprised.
    I agree, and the differences look very obvious to me too - in favour of the Pentax. IMHO, details from the Pentax have more texture and bite to them, whereas the Sony looks like there was a sheet of plastic in between the camera and the scene.

    Is this due to the larger sensor size, ie, larger pixel size (from the MF camera) driving better acuity? Or is the 16 bit files lending more texture to the image? Or is diffraction also coming into play earlier for the Sony by cramming a huge number of pixels into a very small space? Maybe all ...?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Warwick View Post
    I agree, and the differences look very obvious to me too - in favour of the Pentax. IMHO, details from the Pentax have more texture and bite to them, whereas the Sony looks like there was a sheet of plastic in between the camera and the scene.

    Is this due to the larger sensor size, ie, larger pixel size (from the MF camera) driving better acuity? Or is the 16 bit files lending more texture to the image? Or is diffraction also coming into play earlier for the Sony by cramming a huge number of pixels into a very small space? Maybe all ...?
    A similar difference was noted in the IQ180 vs 645Z thread, with the larger sensor having an even higher increase in the qualities you've mentioned. It seems to be the nature of going up in sensor size.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    A similar difference was noted in the IQ180 vs 645Z thread, with the larger sensor having an even higher increase in the qualities you've mentioned. It seems to be the nature of going up in sensor size.
    I saw that test as well, and was surprised at how close the 645Z got to the IQ180. The IQ180 file was downsized, but the margin was much narrower than I would have guessed, especially considering the IQ was using the new 35LS.

    I am really quite impressed here by the Pentax.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    I made another comparison now that my 120 macro got in.

    Same process, RAW conversion in LR, no other adjustments output to JPEG.

    One Note: Man am I annoyed by the speed difference between LR and C1. I'm going to need to send some hate mail to C1 to get their S#%$ straight with Pentax, and do some research on how to get the 645Z files into C1.

    Here are the specs for this test:
    A7R2 - C/Y 100-300 @ 100mm, F8
    645Z - 120 A Macro, F8

    With the A7R2 and C/Y lens, there was no difference between F5.6-F8 for diffraction, they were identical.

    A7R2
    _DSC5485 by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    645Z
    IMGP0032 by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    A7R2 Center
    _DSC5485_C by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    645Z Center
    IMGP0032_C by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    A7R2 Bottom
    _DSC5485_B by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    645Z Bottom
    IMGP0032_B by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    In this comparison the A7R-II looks to perform even a little bit better than 645z (sharper, better local contrast), so lens has definitely a lot to do with it.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    In this comparison the A7R-II looks to perform even a little bit better than 645z (sharper, better local contrast), so lens has definitely a lot to do with it.
    Exposure and processing seem to different, so it's hard to say, the shadow levels on the Z shot are much darker than the A7 that's for sure. For some reason the A7 shot actually looks somewhat processed while the Z example is more of what I'd expect SOOC. It probably has to do with the defaults that Lightroom applies for each camera.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Torger, I'm not convinced this result is attributable to the lenses used. Based on my experience with the Pentax lenses, the 120mm should be even better than the 75mm used in the first test. I don't know Sony lenses, but I would expect a 55mm prime to out perform the zoom used in the second test; so the results are opposite what I would expect based on the lenses used. I wonder if this is a focus issue. Looking at the Flicker images, the bushes in the lower right (closer to the camera I assume) are sharper in the Pentax shot, whereas the cars in the distance appear softer, perhaps indicating a closer focus with the Pentax.

    Tom

    PS Thanks for the profiles you've posted.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    I'm also surprised given the results of the pentax 75 vs sony 55. I thought the 120 macro would clearly outperform anything I put on the A7R2. As per many reviews the 120 macro should be even sharper than the 75. Perhaps my copy of the 120 isn't quite up to snuff? Although it's pretty uniform across the image, I've never had a bad lens copy that behaved like that so idk. Maybe I'll try to get an AF version and see how that compares, even thought they should be identical.

    For reference, the focus was on the center of the first electricity pole. The trees on the sides are just literally 1-2 ft. in front of the pole and I'm over 100ft away. So at F8 the pole and the trees should be in the same plane of focus.

    I took several shots in live view zoom to be sure the focus was as accurate as possible. So if there is something off, it may be due to possible shutter shake? Perhaps wind?

    Regardless on the other hand, man the Contax 100-300 is spectacular, I don't know why it isn't a more popular lens for the A7 cameras. In the 35mm world I've never had a telephoto lens of any kind that's as sharp as this, and now combined with IBIS it's even better.

    Quote Originally Posted by tsjanik View Post
    Torger, I'm not convinced this result is attributable to the lenses used. Based on my experience with the Pentax lenses, the 120mm should be even better than the 75mm used in the first test. I don't know Sony lenses, but I would expect a 55mm prime to out perform the zoom used in the second test; so the results are opposite what I would expect based on the lenses used. I wonder if this is a focus issue. Looking at the Flicker images, the bushes in the lower right (closer to the camera I assume) are sharper in the Pentax shot, whereas the cars in the distance appear softer, perhaps indicating a closer focus with the Pentax.

    Tom

    PS Thanks for the profiles you've posted.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Yes both vibration and slightly out of focus could cause the effect if the 645z lens should be better. Or a faulty lens...

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by rhern213 View Post
    I'm also surprised given the results of the pentax 75 vs sony 55. I thought the 120 macro would clearly outperform anything I put on the A7R2. As per many reviews the 120 macro should be even sharper than the 75. Perhaps my copy of the 120 isn't quite up to snuff? Although it's pretty uniform across the image, I've never had a bad lens copy that behaved like that so idk. Maybe I'll try to get an AF version and see how that compares, even thought they should be identical.

    For reference, the focus was on the center of the first electricity pole. The trees on the sides are just literally 1-2 ft. in front of the pole and I'm over 100ft away. So at F8 the pole and the trees should be in the same plane of focus.

    I took several shots in live view zoom to be sure the focus was as accurate as possible. So if there is something off, it may be due to possible shutter shake? Perhaps wind?

    Regardless on the other hand, man the Contax 100-300 is spectacular, I don't know why it isn't a more popular lens for the A7 cameras. In the 35mm world I've never had a telephoto lens of any kind that's as sharp as this, and now combined with IBIS it's even better.
    I accept that the zoom is of exceptional quality. Still, we are talking about a telephoto zoom, with an adapter no less, compared to what should be an exceptionally sharp lens. Is it possible that, as a macro lens, it is not optimized for focusing and resolving at infinity?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    I have heard some claims on forums that this particular lens may not be optimal at infinity, yet others say it's a myth. I'm gonna try to take some closer focusing shots and try to compare it that way.

    I have a Mamiya 120 macro adapted to the A7R2 for comparison, such my luck.

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I accept that the zoom is of exceptional quality. Still, we are talking about a telephoto zoom, with an adapter no less, compared to what should be an exceptionally sharp lens. Is it possible that, as a macro lens, it is not optimized for focusing and resolving at infinity?

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by rhern213 View Post
    I have heard some claims on forums that this particular lens may not be optimal at infinity, yet others say it's a myth. I'm gonna try to take some closer focusing shots and try to compare it that way.

    I have a Mamiya 120 macro adapted to the A7R2 for comparison, such my luck.
    FWIW, my 120mm FA is pretty bad compared to the 150mm at infinity focus, at any aperture. The 150mm doesn't do macro, so there's nothing to compare against. The 120mm is still vastly sharper than a macro on my old Canon.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Yes both vibration and slightly out of focus could cause the effect if the 645z lens should be better. Or a faulty lens...
    Of course, if vibration and/or difficulty focusing are part of the package with how the lens performs out in the wild, then that's part of how we evaluate performance.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    So here's another sample:

    A7R2 - Mamiya 120mm Macro @ F8
    645Z - 120mm Macro @ F11

    A7R2
    _DSC5492 by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    645Z
    _IMG0046 by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    A7R2
    _DSC5492_C by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr

    645Z
    _IMG0046_C by Richel Hernandez, on Flickr
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Thanks for the post. To my eye, sharpness is a wash, but I prefer the contrast in the Pentax image.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Hi,

    The Mamiya lens is a floating point design corrected for both near focus and infinity and so is then Sony 90/2.8G.

    Exposures and processing are different, and I know from experience that it is very difficult to match processing between different systems. Having a studio setup and including a colour checker helps.

    If we check out the watch samples, the view angle is a bit different between the two shots and that would affect the rendition of shiny areas.

    What I would say is important for me is that both systems make a very good job. If you would make a wall side print and display on two different walls you wouldn't see the difference. But, you may still prefer one over the other. All small changes put together make for a difference. A bit higher contrast here, a bit of better shadow detail there, a slightly better composition. In all probability, the first exposure would be the best one. Because you build the scene and the image. When you take the second shot you essentially replace the camera and take another shot.

    Best regards
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    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by rhern213 View Post
    I have heard some claims on forums that this particular lens may not be optimal at infinity, yet others say it's a myth. I'm gonna try to take some closer focusing shots and try to compare it that way.

    I have a Mamiya 120 macro adapted to the A7R2 for comparison, such my luck.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    This thread is an incredibly interesting and revealing read! Thanks for all the previous posts so far. I know mine is VERY lengthy but I hope some of you will gain some insights from my 10 year professional career...

    I'm looking for a new camera system and considering the 645Z. I shoot interiors and architecture. Time is money for me and my requirements are (in no particular order):
    • Lens profiles which perfectly correct lens distortion;
    • Sharp files, corner to corner, minimum CA or fringing;
    • Efficient workflow (stable tethered connection/fast processing/good profiles that require minimum colour correction in post);
    • Great handling camera. I'm looking to do more personal work so weather sealing would be a bonus (solid build quality/efficient operation).


    PREVIOUS SYSTEM
    H3DII 22MP
    • Very solid. Always shoot on tripod so size was not a problem.
    • Phocus software corrected all distortion in a single click. Colour profile seemed to require less post production than any other system I've used since.
    • Film like quality to files. Not soft, but more natural than every other digital system I've used.
    • The sensor died and its not worth spending the $5000 required to replace the power board.


    CURRENT SYSTEM/S
    CANON 5DIII
    • Solid build but the USB connection is not as solid as the firewire connection on the Hasselblad leading to frequent drop outs. Canons 1DX and Nikons D4 have ethernet connections which are secure but both cameras are targeted at sports shooters with low resolutions and high frame rates.
    • Better dynamic range than H3D.
    • Discovered 17 and 24mm TSE lenses which are stellar performers for their price. Unfortunately when shifted you need to resize the canvas correctly around the image before applying CA/fringing corrections for them to work correctly. This requires me to remember the exact amount of shift used but unfortunately I'm often so rushed that I forget to do this.


    SONY A7R
    • Built like a plastic toy. The mount would flex leading to images that had a tilt effect.
    • Stellar dynamic range.
    • Worked well with 17 and 24mm TSE via Metabones but every other Canon lens looked terrible. Much softer than on the Canon. Returned the Canon 24-70 2.8 MKII because it was mushy and smeared.
    • Sony's 24-70 F4 is a joke and not worthy of the Zeiss label. Returned it also.
    • USB port even worse than Canon. Embarrassing to tell a client 24 times a day to hold on a second because I need to jiggle the cord to reconnect.
    • EVF is a joke! I know you get things like focus peaking and exposure zebras but I cant possibly see how any of this makes up for the low quality of an EVF.
    • Fly by wire focus is a DOG! I can focus a traditional lens by instinct, by using my eyes, or if necessary by looking at the distance on the focus ring. It's also easy to calculate the hyperlocal distance looking at the distance scale. Sony's Fly by wire focus systems either require you to autofocus (which requires you to pick 1 of 4 different focus options, then 1 of 12 different focus modes, THEN move your focus selection point around the screen; or focus manually for which the EVF is not sharp enough requiring you to turn on focus peaking which is not always accurate, and then to turn it off again so you can view the image without it being covered with red pixels.
    • I have to admit though that the EYE AF is great for the occasional portrait, but in my opinion/field not worth the trade off.
    • Batis and Loxia lenses holds some promise but still no/very limited availability in Australia and gaps in the lens lineup without having to mix the two different ranges!


    SONY A7RII
    • Mount is much better than A7R but camera still feels like a toy and still has all the problems associated with EVF and fly by wire focus.
    • Too many features hidden under too many menus. I'm a professional; time is money; I don't need 99% of the cameras features but the features I do need are sometimes a pain to activate.
    • 17mm performs well but the 24mm TSE doesn't perform as well as it did on the A7R!? Anyone else have the same experience? I even updated to the latest Metabones and no change. The drop in quality is so significant that I shooting with the 17mm TSE and cropping results in a sharper file than using the 24mm!


    RECENTLY TESTED
    LEICA S006
    • Beautiful build quality.
    • Just the right feature set for my needs.
    • Lemo connector is secure. Not a single dropped connection when shooting tethered.
    • Like the idea that it's weather sealed.
    • Generally STELLAR lens performance except for the following which is unfortunately a deal breaker:
    • The lens profiles do not adequately correct lens distortion based on focus distance. I have seen a number of reports to this effect since the introduction of the S system but Leica have so far failed to resolve this fairly simple problem. The attached shot of my kitchen shows moustache distortion along the lower edge of the bench even with the lens correction profile applied. There is no way I could give this image to a client!
    • I cant understand why Leica leave file conversion to Adobe. Would you buy a Bentley and take it to the guy around the corner for a service? I believe that if Leica developed their own convertor with 1 click corrections (like Phocus) they could extract even higher quality from their files as well as attract even more customers.
    • Leica have only introduced the 120mm Tilt/Shift Schneider into their system but what about the 28, 50 and 90. Why and just who is the 120mm intended for?


    H5D50C
    • Loved the HTS, gave me the tilt/shift I'd come to love from the Canons but because Phocus does all corrections automatically, not having to resize the canvas around the shifted image to apply corrections was a real time saver.
    • Unfortunately with 1.5 crop factor on top of the 1.3 of the CMOS sensor I would no longer have a true wide angle lens for architecture.
    • Everything I loved about my old H3DII 22MP but the lenses simply aren't good enough for 50MP. I'd wondered why Hasselblad didnt have an 80MP back like Phase One and now I know!
    • Unfortunately a real disappointment because I thought this would be the answer.


    PHASE ONE XF IQ260
    • Stunning camera.
    • Tested the 35mmLS which had STELLAR performance. The 28mm had mushy edges and even my 24TSE on 5D MKIII outperformed it!
    • Files look a little over processed/digital without a bit of tweaking.
    • Capture One is a nice piece of software, at least in terms of extracting maximum quality from their backs.
    • PROHIBITIVE price. The XF system and lenses would cost $75,000 here in Australia and I would then need to add an Alpa FPS (another $20,000 without any lenses) in order to get some shift action!!!


    SO...
    • They were just some thoughts on my experience using different systems. Everyones needs differ but as a professional interiors and architecture photographer the 2 systems that I've tried and liked are either unsuitable (Leica S lens distortion) or require me to sell my soul to the devil (Phase One).
    • From everything I've read the 645Z could be perfect. Unfortunately I don't know anyone who owns one; the dealers down here have the bodies but no lenses in stock; AND they won't even let me test the camera in-store because to do so would make the camera a demo unit which would require selling at a discount!
    • So until I manage to convince them to get a lens in stock and allow me to test the camera, can anyone/everyone please tell me whether the 25mm and 28-45mm profiles completely remove distortion? I often shoot buildings/interiors front on and any amount of distortion is really obvious.
    • I'm also a little concerned about the lack of decent mid range lens. From all reports the 55mm is pretty average.


    Thanks again and appreciate any feedback...
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Have you looked at the Actus DB and Rodenstock digital lenses? All movements for significantly less than the cost of the Alpa FPS and add a CMOS MFDB for quality and live view. It's an outstanding system and cheaper than other tech solutions with their helicoid taxes.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    From the examples I've seen the 55 is a dud in the corners.

    However I have the 75 2.8, and it's great edge to edge at optimum apertures, you won't be disappointed with that one.

    I'm now waiting to receive the 45-85 zoom to see how that is, the reviews have been good.

    I have the new 35-D on pre-order, so hopefully soon I can compare it to the older 35-A I have now.

    Unfortunately I can't afford to spend the loot on the 28-45, and likewise the 90mm macro which is also supposed to be spectacular.

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    I'm also a little concerned about the lack of decent mid range lens. From all reports the 55mm is pretty average.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Although the Leaf Credo 50 is $27,000, you can get it with the Cambo Actus DB Plus and a lens, for only $20,000. They are trying to compete with the Hasselblad CFV-50c, so you have to get it in Hasselblad V-mount.

    https://www.digitalback.com/product/...tus-db-bundle/


    --Steve.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    That is quite a deal!!
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Speaking of deals.

    http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...rmat_dslr.html

    I believe this is close to a 3K savings over purchasing the parts individually. Note they now have a value add style warranty 3 years.

    Paul C

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Thanks for the comment so far. I've managed to find some raw files to download and have to say I'm astonished by the quality of files from the 645Z!

    If the profiles fully correct geometric distortion of the prime lenses based on focus distance and the zoom lenses based on focal length as well then I'm sold. I'm surprised though that no one else seems to have mentioned or discussed this. Again in something as simple as the attached shot, the residual moustache distortion from the Leica S 24mm lens is noticeable and disturbing.

    Can anyone with any experience with the following lenses provide any information on how good the lens profiles are? 25, 28-45, 45-85 FA, 55, 75, 90, 120. I know everyone jokes about shooting brick walls to test lenses but as an interiors and architecture photographer I do strangely do find myself shooting brick walls!

    Thanks
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    The A7rii is certainly an interesting camera with a high possibility to rip a decent share of the MF market but all the time the sensor is 135 it'll miss a certain look and feel to the image.
    i have seen impressive photography done for movies by dop´s like michael ballhaus shot on the rather small 35mm cine format so maybe the format is not too important at all...

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Thanks for the comment so far. I've managed to find some raw files to download and have to say I'm astonished by the quality of files from the 645Z!

    If the profiles fully correct geometric distortion of the prime lenses based on focus distance and the zoom lenses based on focal length as well then I'm sold. I'm surprised though that no one else seems to have mentioned or discussed this. Again in something as simple as the attached shot, the residual moustache distortion from the Leica S 24mm lens is noticeable and disturbing.

    Can anyone with any experience with the following lenses provide any information on how good the lens profiles are? 25, 28-45, 45-85 FA, 55, 75, 90, 120. I know everyone jokes about shooting brick walls to test lenses but as an interiors and architecture photographer I do strangely do find myself shooting brick walls!

    Thanks
    Hi Alexander,
    Have you considered trying the Adobe Lens Correction profile generation tool? It seems as though your requirements are incredibly stringent in this regard, so I don't think it is too likely that you will find many manufacturers who have provided software corrections to the degree you are looking for. http://www.adobe.com/support/downloa...jsp?ftpID=5489
    As a landscape photographer, I look at your attached photo and see a very minor distortion in the table at front, and given that this is one of the very widest lenses available in medium format, and a retrofocal SLR lens, I would be pretty impressed by its performance. In my own work, I often turn off the lens correction in the S lenses, as I find that the distortion is so minimal that the loss in sharpness and increase in digital artifacts* is not worth the correction.

    I have only seen this one picture from you demonstrating the issue...is it equally problematic in other compositions?
    In any case, I would think that since this is your full time job, it would probably benefit you more to work with a camera that fits your needs on a shoot (like the Leica, Pentax or Hasselblad), and then accept that you might have to do some post processing or profiling work yourself to get it to meet your exact needs for output. If you make the lens profiles yourself, you probably have a bit more flexibility to make them correct things exactly how you want. Or perhaps you will have better luck with the Pentax! My guess is that their profiles will be fairly similar to Leica's, since they are also generated by Adobe.

    *I have sometimes found that the "remove chromatic aberration" options in lightroom can do more harm than good in certain high contrast lighting situations. The CA is so low in the S lenses that I generally keep the lens profiles off by default and only turn them on when needed.
    My photos are here: http://www.stuartrichardson.com and more recent work here: http://stuartrichardson.tumblr.com/ Please have a look at my book!
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    @justalxander

    i never experienced connection problems with the sony but i use right/left angle connectors like http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-M.../dp/B001AR4NC8

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    That is quite a deal!!
    Graham, only if you must have the Leaf back. If you buy the Actus DB+ piece parts, eliminate the kit back and buy a CFV-50c (essentially the same as the Leaf) you would save $4K. Now THAT would be a deal.
    John
    PS. I hope you have some luck in getting your equipment back. I'd try a classified offering a reward for "return" of your lost gear, no questions asked.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Seems like a pretty good solution. But I've been looking for LH and RH connectors for some time. A much smaller market here. Sony came to their senses and provided a jigger which hls the cord in place, but the connector themselves are still flimsy requiring disconnection/reconnection tight at the most inopportune time!


    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    @justalxander

    i never experienced connection problems with the sony but i use right/left angle connectors like http://www.amazon.com/StarTech-com-M.../dp/B001AR4NC8

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    On the subject of the 120mm macro, I agree... its like most older macro lenses: can be great at distance, but needs more stopping down than a non-macro. My newly acquired 150mm f2.8 eats the macro for breakfast at wide apertures for distant subjects and remains superior at f11.

    The 150mm f2.8 FA has a bit of a glow wide open, but still has excellent cross frame resolution, but by f4 its pretty well at the top of its game already. By f5.6-8 there is a very slight improvement in corners and edges, but its already close to perfect at f4. Its an amazing lens and I was quite shocked how good it it, as I was with my new (used) FA 80-160. At the long end it is supposed to be a bit weaker. To all intents and purposes, mine keeps up with the 150mm prime at f8-11.

    A stroke of luck saw me pick up (all used) a 80-160 FA from Germany, a 150mm f2.8 from a UK store and a 45-85 FA (yet to arrive) from the UK within a week, all at brilliant prices. These 2 x zooms are the way to go.... and they perform noticeably better than any of the zooms for the FE system to day. I'll be posting reviews on my blog in due course. V impressed!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Hi Stuart, I appreciate your time in responding.

    I got spoilt using the Hasselblad because Phocus has over 200,000 profiles for every lens at every focal length at every aperture at every focus distance. Without the corrections the lenses are as crooked as question marks but with 1 click, geometric distortion is COMPLETELY removed. I spoke directly with the sales manager of the Phase One XF from Denmark and was told that not even Phase One/Capture One has this level of correction.

    Unfortunately I don't think Hasselblad ever expected digital backs to become so large because 50MP is pushing the limits of their lenses. To be fair though, no manufacturer expected this level of resolution. Leica had to develop the S range of glass from scratch. Zeiss have only just announced their third Otus lens and Schneider are in the process of redeveloping their range for Phase One.

    The problem is most obvious when shooting objects front on, which as an interiors and architecture photographer happens regularly. If I shot landscapes it wouldnt be a problem because the only perfectly straight line I can think of in nature is the horizon, and without another perfectly straight line either parallel or perpendicular to the horizon it's difficult to notice curvature across the entire frame.

    It takes lens designers years of research and a tonne of money to create a lens yet I believe a computer can generate a perfect (at least theoretical) lens profile in minutes using the simple lens cross section schematic that manufacturers publish in their lens brochures. It’s probably the least labor/money intensive task to perform in lens design. Every lens designer already has a profile so why not do it properly? The Leica Q relies heavily on lens correction Even Alpa created lens profiles for the legendary range of Rodenstock and Schneider used on its cameras.

    I've tried Adobes lens profiler but the general consensus is that its more miss than hit. Possible if you only ever shoot 1 lens at one aperture at 1 focal distance but to generate the 200,000 profiles Hasselblad have for their lenses would require a lifetime for a human but mere minutes for a computer. The problem might simply be that lens profiles used by Adobe aren't able to carry the amount of data for a a full lens correction.

    Either way, I'm contacting the local Pentax rep today to see if I can get my hands on a demo. The 645Z certainly looks like it provides a HUGE bang for its buck!
    Last edited by justalexander; 22nd November 2015 at 19:51.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Unfortunately I don't think Hasselblad ever expected digital backs to become so large because 50MP is pushing the limits of their lenses.
    Hasselblad has had a 200 mpix camera for some years now (multishot) and the people using it do not complain that the lenses are not fit to that resolution.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Hasselblad has had a 200 mpix camera for some years now (multishot) and the people using it do not complain that the lenses are not fit to that resolution.
    I'm glad to hear that Jerome but do you have any personal experience using the 200MP multi shot?

    I've shot with a H3DII 22MP for the last 10 years (with 28mm, 35mm, 50mm, 80mm and 50-110mm lenses) and absolutely love the quality of its files. It recently broke and I've been using a Sony A7RII while I look for another medium format system. I've just spent the past week shooting with the H5D50c and recently tested the Phase One XF and Leica S. In my opinion/experience I believe the Hasselblad lenses aren't up to scratch for a 50MP back.

    In support of my opinion, Hasselblad haven't updated their lenses (except the 50mm) since their release in 2002 (13 years ago!) at a time when Nikon and Canon had only just released 6MP cameras and Hasselblad hadn't even contemplated a digital solution. Now every 35mm manufacturer is scrambling to update their lens range to cope with the increasing MP count. Leica had to design the S range of lenses from scratch, Zeiss are releasing new ranges of lenses designed specifically for the demands of digital sensors and Schneider are redesigning their lenses for Phase One.

    I was working with the 16MP Sinar multi shot back in 2002 but these backs were used on tech camera with large format lenses. (large format symmetrical design lenses are generally considered to be sharper than retrofocal designs required by slur's) The Hasselblad 200MP requires 6 shots to produce its file.

    Michael Reichmann did a comparison between the Hasselblad H3D 50 II multishot and Phase One P65+/645AF in 2009 and even then concluded that in single shot mode the P65+ was superior and in multshot mode the H3D only just managed to beat it.

    If you have some 200MP multishot files I'd love to see them!
    Last edited by justalexander; 23rd November 2015 at 04:48.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Michael Reichmann did a comparison between the Hasselblad H3D 50 II multishot and Phase One P65+/645AF in 2009 and even then concluded that in single shot mode the P65+ was vastly superior and in multshot mode the H3D only just managed to beat the P65+.
    While LuLa has great reviews concerning usability etc, I don't trust them much when it comes to pure technical image quality analysis. They've had some strange claims through the years, such as DSLRs have 6-7 stop DR and MFDBs 12-13 stops. Multishot is much about getting rid of aliasing artifacts and I think you need to appreciate that specifically to like it.

    In the D800e review if I remember correctly mr Reichmann claimed that there is no aliasing issues despite no moire filter and if you think that you probably are not in position to appreciate multishot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    In the D800e review if I remember correctly mr Reichmann claimed that there is no aliasing issues despite no moire filter and if you think that you probably are not in position to appreciate multishot.
    I've been working with multi shot technology since its inception (over 13 years) including working closely with the Sinar importers. I've used Sinar and Leaf multi shot backs on rail/tech cameras as well as the Sinarcam which had lens boards for 35mm and medium format lenses. I believe I have sufficient knowledge of multi shot technology.

    Not only is multi shot designed to get rid of aliasing artefacts (moire) by capturing red, green and blue values at each pixel (overcoming the design limitations of bayer designs) it gains resolution by shifting the sensor by half a pixel for 2 extra shots to capture information that would ordinarily fall between each pixel. Hasselblad multi shot takes 6 shots which differs from Sinar's backs which took 4 or 16 shots in multi shot mode. Only by combining these 2 techniques to overcome the limitations in the bayer design can it produce higher res files.

    Physics dictates that a multi shot back will produce a sharper image than a single shot back using the same lens but the same laws of physics dictate that some digital backs out resolve some lens designs. I've compared the same 50MP sensor from Hasselblad and Phase One where the key differentiator is the lens and I personally believe Hasselblad's 13 yr old Fuji designed lenses cannot match Sony's state of the art 50MP cmos sensor or Schneider's new lens designs. If you look for Capture Integrations comparison of the new Schneider 35mmLS with the old Phase One 35mm lens you'll clearly see why 13 year old lens designs might need updating.

    Regardless, I can discuss both the engineering of multi shot technology and also my personal experience using the H3DII 22MP, H5D50c, Sony A7RII, Leica S and Phase One in back to back use over the last month... but this thread is intended for people wanting to discuss Pentax 645Z, the A7RII and bang for buck!

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    I'm glad to hear that Jerome but do you have any personal experience using the 200MP multi shot?
    No, I use an H4D-50. But I gather that we would know it if lenses were not usable on the multishot backs.

    In support of my opinion, Hasselblad haven't updated their lenses (except the 50mm) since their release in 2002 (13 years ago!)

    Many lenses are more recent than 2002:
    HCD 28 (2006)
    HCD 35-90 (2008)
    HC 50-II (2010)
    HC 120-II (2010) and
    HCD 24 (2012).

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Can anyone with any experience with the following lenses provide any information on how good the lens profiles are? 25, 28-45, 45-85 FA, 55, 75, 90, 120. I know everyone jokes about shooting brick walls to test lenses but as an interiors and architecture photographer I do strangely do find myself shooting brick walls!

    Thanks
    Of the ones you've mentioned I only have the 55 & 120mm. The 55mm is decently sharp, but the outer parts of the image circle suffers from lots of plane curvature, which many people immediately react to as being soft. I suppose that effectively it may as well be so.

    Here's an image I shot at f/8 and the red circle marks where the building stops being sharp; the transition is fairly obvious up close.



    I can't say much about the 120mm because I seem to have a bad copy of it, as it's considerably less sharp than my 150mm at any aperture; it's still fine for the macro stuff I do, so I'm not in a hurry to replace it.
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Of the ones you've mentioned I only have the 55 & 120mm. The 55mm is decently sharp, but the outer parts of the image circle suffers from lots of plane curvature, which many people immediately react to as being soft. I suppose that effectively it may as well be so.

    Here's an image I shot at f/8 and the red circle marks where the building stops being sharp; the transition is fairly obvious up close.

    I can't say much about the 120mm because I seem to have a bad copy of it, as it's considerably less sharp than my 150mm at any aperture; it's still fine for the macro stuff I do, so I'm not in a hurry to replace it.

    Thanks, thats much appreciated. That's exactly the kind of subject matter I'm likely to be shooting so it's very interesting to know.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Thanks, thats much appreciated. That's exactly the kind of subject matter I'm likely to be shooting so it's very interesting to know.
    And here's a 100% crop of the far left detail just outside of the red circle, followed by the second one just inside of it.
    I was shooting freehand, so it's not as overall sharp as it could have been, but you can still tell the difference.



    The ground was sharp out to the corners which is why I believe this to be curvature, maybe if I had shot at f/14 or even f/22 I could have alleviated this, but had no tripod with me at the time. You can always square-crop your images
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    No, I use an H4D-50. But I gather that we would know it if lenses were not usable on the multishot backs.

    Many lenses are more recent than 2002:
    HCD 28 (2006)
    HCD 35-90 (2008)
    HC 50-II (2010)
    HC 120-II (2010) and
    HCD 24 (2012).

    Do you wish to contribute something RELEVANT to this thread Jerome or just sledge me for taking the time to provide other readers with my personal EXPERIENCE based on testing numerous camera systems BACK TO BACK over the last month? I am genuinely interested in your personal opinion and experience, in fact that's what everyone is here for, but please save everyone's time by not sledging me based on mine or posting pointless off topic-comments based only on what you GATHER we would know...

    I've spent $75,000 on Hasselblad equipment so far and have LOVED every minute shooting with it, resisting the urge to swap brands on numerous occasions despite very poor support for the brand in Australia so I hold no grudge against the camera system. But before I spend ANOTHER $40,000 on the H5D50c I would like to hear about other peoples personal EXPERIENCE whether their might be a camera system with more BANG FOR THE BUCK than the Hasselblad, which in this case as the thread clearly says is the Pentax 645Z and A7RII.

    I've recently spent $10,000 on an A7RII and now just wondering whether its worth putting together a 645Z system for $20,000 which is just 1/2 the price of a new back alone. In my personal EXPERIENCE assisting fashion photographers, Pentax was often preferred for its beautiful rendition of skin tones and bokeh and I'm wondering whether this is still the case.

    Kolo-Pikker has taken the time to provide an example (including enlargements) of the 55mm (very interesting by the way and thank you) and it appears it might indeed still be perfect for portraiture and fashion photographers but less so for architecture and interiors. So what is an asset for one photographer is a liability for another.

    Rhern213 also took the time to show readers how good the 120mm Macro is on the 645Z while ErikKaffehr provided a polite (and relevant) reply in response. Rhern213 (and if I read his post correctly, and to my astonishment) showed how good the 75mm is on the Pentax compared to the 55mm on the A7RII because in my personal EXPERIENCE owning the 55mm and A7RII it's a stellar performer so no mean feat for the Pentax to match let alone better it! (again many thanks for the example).

    So now that we've got that unpleasantness out of the way please enlighten me on your experience with either the Pentax 645Z and/or A7RII...

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    And here's a 100% crop of the far left detail just outside of the red circle, followed by the second one just inside of it.
    I was shooting freehand, so it's not as overall sharp as it could have been, but you can still tell the difference.



    The ground was sharp out to the corners which is why I believe this to be curvature, maybe if I had shot at f/14 or even f/22 I could have alleviated this, but had no tripod with me at the time. You can always square-crop your images

    I assisted a lot of fashion photographers and their preferred brand was Pentax. Despite being temperamental and often having shutter problems requiring as many as 2 back up bodies for a shoot (at least in the case of the Pentax 67) the lenses produced the most beautiful skin tones and bokeh. Is the field curvature of the 55mm a common trait of Pentax lenses and therefore an explanation for Pentax popularity amongst fashion photographers???

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    I assisted a lot of fashion photographers and their preferred brand was Pentax. Despite being temperamental and often having shutter problems requiring as many as 2 back up bodies for a shoot (at least in the case of the Pentax 67) the lenses produced the most beautiful skin tones and bokeh. Is the field curvature of the 55mm a common trait of Pentax lenses and therefore an explanation for Pentax popularity amongst fashion photographers???
    No, it's just this lens, at least by what I know. The 55mm wouldn't be notorious for it's field curvature if it were a common trait among Pentax lenses. I rarely shoot images like the one above, so it's not a big problem. For "3D" subjects like this one it's even advantageous: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...6/_IMG2170.jpg

    What I do find as a common trait is a high level of LoCA, that is magenta/green fringing of detail in front of or behind the plane of focus, all of the Pentax lenses I've used have it, even when stopped down a little. The 150mm is the worst offender (wide-open), but at f/8 it's also the sharpest lens I've ever used, with an absolutely flat field; because of this I use it for art reproduction whenever possible.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Given your applications you might consider using the Pentax 67 55mm (last version, widely regarded as one of the best 67 lenses) along with a Zoerk shift adapter.

    http://www.zoerk.com/pages/p_pshift.htm

    I have no experience with the new DFA 55mm, but the old 55mm A and the 67 55mm have flat fields. Most copies of the 120mm are superb. The 28-45, 75 and 45-85 are also very good in that order. I have no experience with the 90mm or 25mm.

    Tom
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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    Do you wish to contribute something RELEVANT to this thread Jerome
    You are the one who hijacked this thread and started to post about Hasselblad lenses, which are neither relevant to the 645z nor relevant to the A7RII. I just tried to correct the most obvious inaccuracies without hijacking the thread.

    Now you asked the question whether I can contribute something relevant. To this specific thread, which is about the 645z and the A7RII, probably not. I don't have these cameras. About Hasselblad lenses, I contributed this and that, in lula at the time. You'll find the same test pictures in that other forum, which will still be accessible for free after lula will hide behind a paywall in 7 days and also this. Is that relevant? I don't know, you tell me.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You are the one who hijacked this thread and started to post about Hasselblad lenses, which are neither relevant to the 645z nor relevant to the A7RII. I just tried to correct the most obvious inaccuracies without hijacking the thread.

    Now you asked the question whether I can contribute something relevant. To this specific thread, which is about the 645z and the A7RII, probably not. I don't have these cameras. About Hasselblad lenses, I contributed this and that, in lula at the time. You'll find the same test pictures in that other forum, which will still be accessible for free after lula will hide behind a paywall in 7 days and also this. Is that relevant? I don't know, you tell me.

    I gave my opinion based on the personal experience I had reviewed based on the equipment I had been using. This would help readers understand the differences between the different formats and what it was in particular I was hoping to find in the 645Z. All legitimate. You post useless unsubstantiated comments that are just plain rude. You didnt even have the decency to divulge what camera system you were using!

    A polite reply might have gone something like this.... 'Well I've been using the H4D50 for X years and I'm curious to know WHY you feel the 50MP sensor isn't up to scratch." And you might have done it using a private message so as not to littler this thread with irrelevant conversation. So if you cant contribute anything relevant to the thread why bother wasting everyones time???

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Hasselblad has had a 200 mpix camera for some years now (multishot) and the people using it do not complain that the lenses are not fit to that resolution.
    Just my two cents. The 200ms is nothing more than the 50c sensor that combines several images internally (if you so choose that setting), or you can shoot it the same way (single shot) that the 50c back works. It is not a 200mp sensor. There is a world of difference. If the lenses work on the 50c then they will work on the 200ms
    Bryan

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    You are the one who hijacked this thread and started to post about Hasselblad lenses, which are neither relevant to the 645z nor relevant to the A7RII. I just tried to correct the most obvious inaccuracies without hijacking the thread
    Actually you can use the Hassy V lenses on the Pentax 645z and the Sony a7rII with an adapter so these could be part of the dicussion, but I believe there was a separate thread dedicated to that (at least with regards to the Pentax system that I know of).
    Bryan

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    Just my two cents. The 200ms is nothing more than the 50c sensor that combines several images internally (if you so choose that setting), or you can shoot it the same way (single shot) that the 50c back works. It is not a 200mp sensor. There is a world of difference. If the lenses work on the 50c then they will work on the 200ms
    x megapixels emulated from multishot are just as taxing on the lenses as x megapixels natively captured.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by justalexander View Post
    I gave my opinion based on the personal experience I had reviewed based on the equipment I had been using. This would help readers understand the differences between the different formats and what it was in particular I was hoping to find in the 645Z. All legitimate. You post useless unsubstantiated comments that are just plain rude. You didnt even have the decency to divulge what camera system you were using!

    A polite reply might have gone something like this.... 'Well I've been using the H4D50 for X years and I'm curious to know WHY you feel the 50MP sensor isn't up to scratch." And you might have done it using a private message so as not to littler this thread with irrelevant conversation. So if you cant contribute anything relevant to the thread why bother wasting everyones time???
    What I see is that you posted this bizarre idea that H lenses would not be fit for a 50 mpix sensor. You also posted the incorrect statement that H lenses had never been upgraded since 2002 as "evidence". I though it beneficial to the thread to put these statements in doubt.

    Now, if you had bothered to clic the links I gave in my previous message, you would have found supporting evidence to my statement about the H lenses, as I have personally tested each H lens between 24mm and 100mm and posted the results.

    You are also telling us that you photograph architecture. If this is your line of work, I don't understand why you even consider changing brands since the distortion correction of Phocus is a unique feature quite essential to that particular line of work, as you explained yourself. Maybe the reason you consider changing brands is because of that bizarre idea that H lenses would be too poor for 50 mpix? If such is the case, maybe you would benefit from testing these lenses again. OTOH, if you think that my posting are just wasting your time, simply ignore them and I won't have to post anything more to that thread myself.

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    x megapixels emulated from multishot are just as taxing on the lenses as x megapixels natively captured.
    If I am not mistaken, it is the SAME sensor as in the 50c, so if the lenses work on the H5D-50c they will work on the 200ms.

    With regards to your other post, I have shot the h4D-50 and used the H lenses and they seemed to work fine on that back, at least in my opinion.
    Bryan

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    Re: Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    If I am not mistaken, it is the SAME sensor as in the 50c, so if the lenses work on the H5D-50c they will work on the 200ms.

    It is the same sensor, but the multishot process emulates a higher resolution sensor and increases the sample frequency. One will see better the limitations of the lenses.

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