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Pentax 645Z vs A7RII IQ and bang for the buck

markymarkrb

New member
Looking for a few preliminary opinions on a new system for myself. I do panoramic work and usually end up stitching. I sold my IQ180 and need a go to system that produces the best bang for the buck. Here is what I am currently thinking:


Sony A7RII with Cambo Actus/Rodenstock HR 40mm (great glass but tough portable system in the weather) or
Sony A7RII with Canon 24mm TSE (easy to use and good pano results) or
Pentax 645Z with DA 28-45mm (still a great camera and glass and it is MF so you must know what you are doing and just using it makes beautiful pictures no matter what you point it at, haha, right?)

Any opinions?

Mark
 

Paul2660

Well-known member
A few thoughts:

1. A7rII, still a lot to see from this. Will the new BIS design allow clean shifts? If not then I would not consider it for big movements. The A7r will show quite a bit of red cast on extreme shifts. I tested it last year with the following lenses:

35XL, 40mm Rodenstock, 60XL, 90HR.

Also, none of these are really that wide, as they are 35mm, 40mm etc. when used on a 35mm sensor.
The 35XL really could not be shifted past 5mm maybe 6mm. The 40mm Rodenstock would go to 15mm and showed a lot of color cast, but the LCC correction was able to fix a lot of it. You will also see quite a bit of color saturation loss, which actually was harder to fix for me.


2. The A7rII with the Canon's, will only go 12mm of shift, not really that much movement for a pano at least to me. You could combine shift and camera movement but you then would need to be level.

With all the new features the A7rII is adding in sensor and stability, it really could be a game changer and I am looking forward to the testing follows.

I don't have the Pentax, but have used the IQ150 which has the same sensor. Not a perfect solution for a lot of movement i.e. shifting due to color cast. The C1 LCC correction did a pretty good job in some cases, but with a solid blue sky it was hard to get back (at least for me). On center it's great and I would expect the 645z to be the same.

The 645z and the 28mm-45mm would be a great camera for landscapes for sure and you could easily nodal pan it with great results. Something I am considering going back to with the XF and 35mm LS, as the tech workflow is getting me down. Modern stitching software allows for a huge amount of leeway now.

Paul
 

Chris Giles

New member
Why not the 5Dsr? I was going to bite and get an A7rii but after my recent experience with the a7ii body I ordered a 5Dsr today.

The Pentax is a stellar option though and I love mine to bits although that 28-45 is an expensive lens but so is the Canon 11-24 I guess!
 
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Why not the 5Dsr? I was going to bite and get an A7rii but after my recent experience with the a7ii body I ordered a 5Dsr today.
Because of Canon dynamic range most likely, having used mainly Canon cameras for many years myself, being able to push shadows 4+ stops at a time is revolutionary. I have no idea how I could go back to a camera that can't do that. I suppose that if you're always shooting in ideal conditions or if dynamic range was never a problem for you, then the 5DS can work out.

On one hand, Canon has some mind-blowing lenses for the landscape/arch photographer, like the 11-24mm, 16-35mm f/4 IS, 17/24mm TS-E, 24-70 2.8 II and so on. On the other hand, it's not a particularly amazing sensor that you're putting these lenses on... 50mp? Yeah, whatever, give me 14 stops DR instead of 11.5 please Canon. Just my opinion.
 

jianghai

Member
Because of Canon dynamic range most likely, having used mainly Canon cameras for many years myself, being able to push shadows 4+ stops at a time is revolutionary. I have no idea how I could go back to a camera that can't do that. I suppose that if you're always shooting in ideal conditions or if dynamic range was never a problem for you, then the 5DS can work out.

On one hand, Canon has some mind-blowing lenses for the landscape/arch photographer, like the 11-24mm, 16-35mm f/4 IS, 17/24mm TS-E, 24-70 2.8 II and so on. On the other hand, it's not a particularly amazing sensor that you're putting these lenses on... 50mp? Yeah, whatever, give me 14 stops DR instead of 11.5 please Canon. Just my opinion.
I'm not sure I agree with you there completely. I think in the form of a D810 you would probably be correct (not having a D810 myself I cannot verify). Having recently procured a RX1 (yes older sensor but similar concept) I find that the ability to push Sony files in camera raw is greatly exaggerated, because of the lossy raw compression and the artifacts that it produces. Even a push of 2-3 stops for me has been sufficient to show the posterization that many have shown previously on high contrast edges (which seems to happen a lot in situations where I'd use the higher DR anyways).

OP: You didn't mention whether you flat stitch or nodal stitch, but I will presume nodal stitch since the 645z basically can't do flat stitching. In that case my vote would be for the 645z, if for nothing else but to avoid compressed raws. If you prefer flat stitching you can't beat the A7 series with either of Canon's newer TS-E lenses. That or that new 11-24.
 

algrove

Well-known member
I stitch with my 645Z and have no complaints. There is no taking away that whatever other 35mm sensor you are considering, the photo sites on the 645Z are what makes MF what it is. As for other cameras using the same Sony sensor as the 645Z, somehow the Pentax engineers have extracted more from that same sensor than the others-Hasselblad and Phase One. Must be in the translation-i.e., Sony=Japan and Pentax=Japan.
 

markymarkrb

New member
I will do flat stitching or nodal stitching, it doesn't really matter. While I agree that the photo sites are bigger on the 645Z and to this point, this has been tremendously advantageous to MF, the new BSI sensor allows smaller photo sites to get more light than the old technology so it is interesting to see what this may bring. This is a tough decision. It will be interesting to see what the comparison of A7Rii and 645Z files brings.
 

tcdeveau

Well-known member
If you don't care about flat vs nodal stitching, then I'd skip the Actus solution for the weather/portability reasons and stick with nodal stitching and the A7rii/canon combo or Pentax.

As far as a7rii vs Pentax, I'd wait for more reviews/samples on the a7rii and make the decision from there. I've also not been terribly impressed with the lossy compression scheme Sony employs that another member mentioned which gives me pause for the a7rii. I prefer the files from my d800e and d810 over my a7r currently and don't find the a7r files as malleable as the Nikon files. There's talk of firmware upgrades that allow for uncompressed raw but it's not a reality yet as far as I know. A lot of people say artifacts from the sonys are neglible unless you're printing really large. That's probably true but to me that's the whole point of high megapixel cams - to print large when you can/need to. I'm really excited about the a7rii and on paper it checks almost all the right boxes and has great promised bang-for-buck, but until more people start shooting with it we won't know how well it delivers for landscape. The Pentax on the other hand has already shown that it delivers impressive results, especially with the 28-45.

Out of curiosity, why did you decide to sell the iq180 and move to the a7rii/645z?
 

markymarkrb

New member
I agree, I can't wait to see the results of the A7RII. I sold my ALPA STC and IQ180 for financial reasons and a change in career but I also thought it was time for it to go because I do think a CMOS wave is coming to high end Phase One digital backs. Not sure if I could ever get one but I did want to preserve what was left of my IQ180 monetary value before it dropped dramatically again. A 100MP MF full frame CMOS on an ALPA STC with an HR32mm would be perfect.
 

Ken_R

New member
Looking for a few preliminary opinions on a new system for myself. I do panoramic work and usually end up stitching. I sold my IQ180 and need a go to system that produces the best bang for the buck. Here is what I am currently thinking:


Sony A7RII with Cambo Actus/Rodenstock HR 40mm (great glass but tough portable system in the weather) or
Sony A7RII with Canon 24mm TSE (easy to use and good pano results) or
Pentax 645Z with DA 28-45mm (still a great camera and glass and it is MF so you must know what you are doing and just using it makes beautiful pictures no matter what you point it at, haha, right?)

Any opinions?

Mark
Bang for the buck? No question the A7RII. Well, at least from what we know about it now. The Sony has yet to be thoroughly tested but on paper it seems killer.

A great advantage of the Sony is that one can use almost any lens on it due to its very short flange focal distance (lens mount to sensor dist.). That is a huge plus.

Can't wait to see tests with Leica glass. The BSI sensor design should, in theory, all about eliminate issues with light entering the sensor at steep angles.

As a System the 645z with the 28-45mm lens is an awesome choice due to the proven quality and integration. But with the Sony you get to use the awesome Canon TS-E's including the 17 and 24mm's.

I love the Pentax with it's optical VF and overall build quality and feel but it is a beast.

Honesty the A7RII's spec sheet reads like a wish list for a LOT of photographers so it's a must to at least try it out if one is in the market.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

Pentax 645Z is a great value. The new lenses are pretty expensive. Lloyd Chambers has tested a lot of the older lenses and he found that most were not really great.

The Pentax 645Z doesn't have T&S if you need that. There may be an old Pentax 67 shift that may be adapted, tough.

Personally, I will go the Sony A7rII route. Part of that is because I am an old Minolta/Sony user and have a lot of lenses for that system. Another reason is that I am pretty sure that mirrorless/EVF is where we are going. So, I don't want to buy into old technology.

Chris Barret a well known architecture photographer made the shift from IQ-260 to Sony A7r, he uses both Canon T&S lenses and a lot Hasselblad CFx (Zeiss) glass. He seems very happy with the Zeiss lenses. check here: ...and I'm out.

Personally, I have a bunch of things on order:

  • A Sony A7rII
  • A Canon 24/3.5 T&S
  • A Zeiss Batis 85/1.8 lens
  • A Metabones adapter for Canon
  • A Sony adapter for my older Sony lenses.

Hopefully I get delivery first week of August (according to estimates). I will share my findings when I get the stuff.

Like Chris Barret I mentioned before, I have a bunch of Zeiss lenses for my Hasselblad/P45+.

I plan to get the H-Cam Master TS adapter to use with the Hassy lenses. It has been reviewed by Jack Flesher, the image below is from that article.



This comes with a Canon mount. So I will need another adapter from the Canon bayonet to Hasselblad V.

Must say, I am a bit skeptical about the Hasselblad lenses on high resolution sensors, not least as I think I see some significant chromatic aberration which may not be easily corrected on a shifted lens.

On the other hand the Master TS adapter comes around 1000€ (including tax) and having T&S for 6-lenses would be a nice thing.

Just to mention: The Master TS adapter is mostly based on Mirex adapaters. Mirex has Canon to Hasselblad adapter, which is cheaper than the Master TS, but the Master TS is probably less crammed and has a tripod mount, meaning that we can tilt the camera and not the lens.

So the Master TS is clearly on my shopping list.

The original A7r had some problems with vibrations from the shutter. Those should have been eliminated by the electronic first shutter curtain (EFSC) on the A7rII. Without the EFSC the shutter needs to close before exposure, so EFSC improves reaction time significantly.

Best regards
Erik





Looking for a few preliminary opinions on a new system for myself. I do panoramic work and usually end up stitching. I sold my IQ180 and need a go to system that produces the best bang for the buck. Here is what I am currently thinking:


Sony A7RII with Cambo Actus/Rodenstock HR 40mm (great glass but tough portable system in the weather) or
Sony A7RII with Canon 24mm TSE (easy to use and good pano results) or
Pentax 645Z with DA 28-45mm (still a great camera and glass and it is MF so you must know what you are doing and just using it makes beautiful pictures no matter what you point it at, haha, right?)

Any opinions?

Mark
 

tjv

Active member
Can Leica S lenses be used in some way with the Aptus, or is there a problem with the electronic control of the aperture? Would offer more limited movements than actuall tech lenses, but pretty amazing edge to edge performance I imagine.
 

Chris Giles

New member
Because of Canon dynamic range most likely, having used mainly Canon cameras for many years myself, being able to push shadows 4+ stops at a time is revolutionary. I have no idea how I could go back to a camera that can't do that. I suppose that if you're always shooting in ideal conditions or if dynamic range was never a problem for you, then the 5DS can work out.

On one hand, Canon has some mind-blowing lenses for the landscape/arch photographer, like the 11-24mm, 16-35mm f/4 IS, 17/24mm TS-E, 24-70 2.8 II and so on. On the other hand, it's not a particularly amazing sensor that you're putting these lenses on... 50mp? Yeah, whatever, give me 14 stops DR instead of 11.5 please Canon. Just my opinion.
I agree and disagree at the same time. I totally hear you about the dynamic range but the A7 files are nothing to shout home about, not really. The Pentax on the other hand, superb. Maybe if Sony unlocked their raw files to be uncompressed then things would be different.

Jumping back to Canon at ISO100 you can really push all hell out of the files. It's when the ISO bumps up to around 800 that pretty much most cameras start to level out and things like lens options, usability, build quality and so on start to influence the purchase, that was my reasoning at least for stepping from the a7 to the 5dsr.
 

algrove

Well-known member
I will not try a Sony until they offer DNG or similar files. As we all know the 645Z one can choose from various RAW formats, but to me DNG is what I look for OOC.
 

turtle

New member
Regardless of the lossy Sony RAWs, I find them vastly superior to my 5D III files in DR and flexibility in post. Its not even close IMHO.

Yes, the 645Z are another substantial step up, but the A7R's files are much closer to the 645Z than the 5D III's are to the A7R to my eyes.

the A7R II will offer the best bang for the buck, surely. But a Panny GM-1 offers a better bang for the buck still. I would question whether this is the right way to look at such a purchase: isn't it more about whether the additional cost and weight of the 645Z is worth it over the A7R II?

One cannot be sure without having an A7R II to play with, but with optics included in the equation, I do not see the Sony kit fully rivalling the 645z based on my experiences with the 645Z and the A7R. My 28-45 SR on the Z is unmatched by some margin by anything in my Sony bag.

For some full-rez 645Z example files and commentary, I wrote up on the 645Z and some of the lenses here. It may help.

IMHO for most travel/landscape applications, the Sony route would be my choice. For getting the last bit of performance for v large prints and the finest results after heavy processing, the 645Z is likely to come out comfortably ahead. Just my 2 cents.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

I would agree on DNG being preferable to oddball raw formats, but on the other hand I convert my Sony images direct to DNG on import. I do it with an option so the original raw is imbedded in the DNG, so I can both eat the cake and save it. The cost is larger files…

Best regards
Erik

I will not try a Sony until they offer DNG or similar files. As we all know the 645Z one can choose from various RAW formats, but to me DNG is what I look for OOC.
 

Ken_R

New member
The more I think about the more I believe the Sony A7RII is a 645z killer. Specially for landscapes. The Sony is much smaller/lighter and accepts a huge range of lenses including tilt/shift lenses. Resolution and Dynamic range of the new Sony sensor should be quite close to the 645z. It is obviously a newer generation sensor with a BSi design so it is possible that it might even be better.

Yes, I prefer an optical viewfinder when photographing people handheld, specially in the studio when working with flash where light levels are pretty low for EVFs. But in the studio I much prefer a Hasselblad or Phase camera (much better tethering and software integration) or even a 5DS/R. So the 645z is somewhat the oddball choice once the A7RII is out (if it performs as expected or better). Not that any of this will change the fact that the 645z is an excellent camera but it factors in when making a purchasing decision.
 

Chris Giles

New member
The more I think about the more I believe the Sony A7RII is a 645z killer. Specially for landscapes. The Sony is much smaller/lighter and accepts a huge range of lenses including tilt/shift lenses. Resolution and Dynamic range of the new Sony sensor should be quite close to the 645z. It is obviously a newer generation sensor with a BSi design so it is possible that it might even be better.

Yes, I prefer an optical viewfinder when photographing people handheld, specially in the studio when working with flash where light levels are pretty low for EVFs. But in the studio I much prefer a Hasselblad or Phase camera (much better tethering and software integration) or even a 5DS/R. So the 645z is somewhat the oddball choice once the A7RII is out (if it performs as expected or better). Not that any of this will change the fact that the 645z is an excellent camera but it factors in when making a purchasing decision.
The A7rii is certainly an interesting camera with a high possibility to rip a decent share of the MF market but all the time the sensor is 135 it'll miss a certain look and feel to the image.
Saying that, ask me in two weeks when I've done side by sides of the 5Dsr and the 645z at a few weddings because if I can dump the 645z for the lighter setup and am able to go back to a single line of lenses I will. Just so long as the images don't lose something.
 

turtle

New member
I think in all round terms the A7R II will be a gem and even more compelling with the new lenses slowly being released, but a lot of this resolution potential comes down to lenses. I have not found anything on the Sony wide side that can compete with the 28-45 lens on the 645Z, prime or not. I don't think 6 extra MP will change that. The 25mm Batis looks like it might just do so, but its a 25mm, whereas the 28-45mm is a 21 to 35 equivalent, which means its a much more flexible tool.

The 645Z has bigger pixels and if you are a fan of 4:3, the A7R II's 42MP drops to 38. More MP and better lenses has inevitable consequences and I find the images from the 645Z look smoother overall and have more processing potential. While the A7R II will surely close the gap somewhat, I will be very surprised if it can truly match the 645Z for performance. I am ready to be amazed however!
 

markymarkrb

New member
I think in all round terms the A7R II will be a gem and even more compelling with the new lenses slowly being released, but a lot of this resolution potential comes down to lenses. I have not found anything on the Sony wide side that can compete with the 28-45 lens on the 645Z, prime or not. I don't think 6 extra MP will change that. The 25mm Batis looks like it might just do so, but its a 25mm, whereas the 28-45mm is a 21 to 35 equivalent, which means its a much more flexible tool.

The 645Z has bigger pixels and if you are a fan of 4:3, the A7R II's 42MP drops to 38. More MP and better lenses has inevitable consequences and I find the images from the 645Z look smoother overall and have more processing potential. While the A7R II will surely close the gap somewhat, I will be very surprised if it can truly match the 645Z for performance. I am ready to be amazed however!

The elephant in the room that no one is considering is that up to this point, we have all seen and witnessed that when a sensor has bigger photosites, it takes smoother "nicer" looking pictures but her comes BSI technology and I do think it has the potential to change that thinking as now the photosites are closer to the surface of the sensor and can gather more light. Time will tell.
 
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