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Thread: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

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    Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Dear Phase One,

    I have been committed to our relationship for 10 years now, faithfully through D800's, A7R's, but am starting to look at other wome... camera options, because they are giving me things you are failing to provide:

    I need a modern back, that has 'Live View' EVF out option, so I can set an EVF on my camera, enlarge focus and nail it.
    I need focus peaking on the screen & EVF to confirm that
    I need modern really clean ISO up to 1600. No, Sensor+ does not hack it.
    I need full frame, and at least 80Mp, preferably 100mp

    I would love dedicated AF sensors built into the sensor too (like all the latest Sony ones) but can make do if you give me EVF out.

    Yes, "I", "I" "I", but this relationship is about me and my work, my $, and most important: my creativity.

    In plain speak: Divorce is on the cards if you can't get with the times, announce an IQ3-100 with FF Sony Sensor this year. Sorry, but that's how it looks.
    Last edited by narikin; 30th July 2015 at 13:21.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Shouldn't that be EVF, not OVF?

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    their CMOS backs come close, with the exception of the crop factor

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Dear Phase One,

    I have been committed to our relationship for 10 years now, faithfully through D800's, A7R's, but am starting to look at other wome... camera options, because they are giving me things you are failing to provide:

    I need a modern back, that has 'Live View' OVF out option, so I can set an OVF on my camera, enlarge focus and nail it.
    I need focus peaking on the screen & OVF to confirm that
    I need modern really clean ISO up to 1600. No, Sensor+ does not hack it.
    I need full frame, and at least 80Mp, preferably 100mp

    I would love dedicated AF sensors built into the sensor too (like all the latest Sony ones) but can make do if you give me OVF out.

    Yes, "I", "I" "I", but this relationship is about me and my work, my $, and most important: my creativity.

    In plain speak: Divorce is on the cards if you can't get with the times, announce an IQ3-100 with FF Sony Sensor this year. Sorry, but that's how it looks.
    Shouldn't your salutation include Sony, Dalsa, etc.?

    Alvin
    La gallina vecchia fa buon brodo

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I don't even dare to think how much such a back will cost.
    Perhaps a Hassi CFV version of it, for us Tech-cam shooters ?

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Shouldn't that be EVF, not OVF?
    whoops, yes, have corrected. thanks.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    I don't even dare to think how much such a back will cost.
    Perhaps a Hassi CFV version of it, for us Tech-cam shooters ?
    at over $35,000 for an IQ380 I think we deserve a far, far more modern sensor & the associated abilities that come with that price.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    their CMOS backs come close, with the exception of the crop factor

    Crop factor, no EVF option, no focus peaking and not enough MP.
    Canon is at 50Mp now, Sony 42, so - really, it's not enough to distinguish the investment required and compromises you need to make without double the Mp of those cameras.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    XF + IQ250/IQ350 has three of the four...

    iOS device (attached or freely held) for EVF including live view at up to 400% magnification

    Focus Mask after capture for focus peaking (though I agree having it in live view would be nice, and I suspect you'll see that at some point). Also at 400% visually focusing with high-frame-rate live view on a large bright iOS device (i.e. iPhone 6 Plus or iPad mini) is very very good.

    Very good ISO

    It is not full frame. Though it's still twice as big as a full frame 35mm. You could say it's fuller frame (my instagram handle!).

    It also offers a WLF, customizable exposure warning, true raw-based clipping warning, zone system heat map, long exposure calculator, sensor heat monitor, movable grids and guides, wireless or on screen ratings (1-5 stars) carried into raw import, GPS geotagging, a range of Schneider leaf shutter lenses with native sync up to 1/1600th, compatibility with tech cameras and wide angle Rodenstock HR lenses, and a host of other things that distinguish it from a Canon with lots of pixels crammed in.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Apparently my new XF and IQ380 has just arrived at my dealer. The wait is nearly over!

    For me, 80 mpx is perfectly sufficient - it's the new body I really need.
    Bill CB

    www.billcaulfeild-browne.ca
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    I need a modern back, that has 'Live View' EVF out option, so I can set an EVF on my camera, enlarge focus and nail it.
    I need focus peaking on the screen & EVF to confirm that
    I need modern really clean ISO up to 1600. No, Sensor+ does not hack it.
    I need full frame, and at least 80Mp, preferably 100mp

    Is the situation so bad?

    I mean: I would not mind a better camera, back, etc... but is any of this necessary? Basically, you want:
    1: better focus control abilities (through an EVF)
    2: iso 1600
    3: full frame with more pixels

    So I wonder:
    1: is focus so difficult? I find the AF on my camera accurate enough
    2: does everybody shoot in darkness? I find that I mostly use iso 50-200 on all my cameras.
    3: I can't see much difference between 2 cameras under at least 50% more pixels.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Apparently my new XF and IQ380 has just arrived at my dealer. The wait is nearly over!

    For me, 80 mpx is perfectly sufficient - it's the new body I really need.
    Bill,

    Are you ready to report with a mini type review??

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Then, on the other hand:

    Looking at car manufacturers and see what they can deliver at 35'000 bucks, it's very clear that there IS a gap.

    Everybody may have different flavors of what he/her is missing, but the level of technology delivered in a Digital Back is really not that complicated.
    Imagine a car, manufactured from - lets say - 100'000 single pieces - you get an idea that there is still a lot room for improvement.
    Imagine a standard laptop, with screen, Wifi, SSD-Disk, and on and on and on.

    Let's start with in-body image stabilisation for Digital Backs. Should not be impossible. My newly aquired Olympus EM-5 MkII has this new 5-axis stabilisation, and after one shot in the almost dark night to a compay logo (just for fun, but tack sharp) I can clearly say that there is application for such technology.

    Dear Phase One - it IS 2015. It's not only Megpixels anymore.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan ROX View Post
    Then, on the other hand:

    Looking at car manufacturers and see what they can deliver at 35'000 bucks, it's very clear that there IS a gap.
    If you look at the cars which are manufactured with production runs similar to the ones of MF cameras, they cost a premium as well.

    Everybody may have different flavors of what he/her is missing, but the level of technology delivered in a Digital Back is really not that complicated.
    Imagine a car, manufactured from - lets say - 100'000 single pieces - you get an idea that there is still a lot room for improvement.
    Imagine a standard laptop, with screen, Wifi, SSD-Disk, and on and on and on.
    You don't have to go that far. Manufacturing a Nikon or Canon DSLR is just as complex mechanically as manufacturing a MF SLR, yet the MF costs a lot more, because the production run is much smaller.

    Let's start with in-body image stabilisation for Digital Backs. Should not be impossible. My newly aquired Olympus EM-5 MkII has this new 5-axis stabilisation, and after one shot in the almost dark night to a compay logo (just for fun, but tack sharp) I can clearly say that there is application for such technology.
    I sure would like that, but would it make sense? Would it be really useful for the kind of pictures one gets a MF camera for? Wouldn't it make more sense to use a general DSLR like your EM-5 or a Sony A7-II for the kind of pictures one needs stab for?

    I mean: I would appreciate more features in my camera as much as the next guy, of course. But I don't actually need these "modern" features in my MF. I did not buy a MF for that and probably neither did you. I bought a MF because it is not a "modern" camera. I bought a MF because it is a different, specialised tool. I would not mind that particular tool to be more universal, but I don't need it. I bought it for what it can do that no other camera can, not to do what other cameras can.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Some good points. Focus peaking will let you down though, it's not accurate enough thus far in my experience.

    My question would be, how long are people going to put up with these insanely inflated prices? If Pentax can make a Z for $8500 dollars which has many components, not all, but many that are better constructed and thought out vs Phase and Hasselblad, why does a back still cost as much as a really nice car? It's such a joke. They're expensive because they're low volume, but they're low volume because they're expensive! I guess it would put the rental businesses out if they don't just buy what Phase has available so they have to pay the 35 grand for an IQ380, and then there are maybe 100 studios and Sheikhs in Dubai that buy them... Why doesn't Hasselblad want to dominate the high end wedding market with the H5D-50c? I know and work with some folks that really are the highest paid in the industry here in NYC and elsewhere, and they're not buying one, no way. They're looking at the Z a lot, but the crop factor is more of a limiter than the actual price. If they wanna go MFD they want a real 645 at least. Considering 16mp is enough for a wedding, we want sensor size and high ISO more than detail. I know a lot of people that would consider the CVF-50C, but again, it's more expensive than the Pentax by almost double, and there is just no reason for that. (Don't get me started on Hasselblad's 10 year old scanners that somehow still cost the same as in 2007).
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I bought a MF because it is not a "modern" camera. An idea too often ignored in these threads.

    What if you want a manual transmission in your car? It seems that paddle shifters are "better," so everyone has to have them or be outdated.

    It's possible that some people don't want their digital back for video, don't you think?
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    What if you want a manual transmission in your car?
    I actually have a manual transmission and gear stick in my cars. But I don't live in America and in Europe this is still the case for the majority of cars.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    i'm pretty good with a manual trans, shift lever operated or foot (either foot) for motorcycles.

    had paddle shifters on my bmw sport automatic car; never got the hang of them

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Dear Sony:
    Please read OP's post.
    Thank you.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    i'm pretty good with a manual trans, shift lever operated or foot (either foot) for motorcycles.
    Standard or reverse shift?
    La gallina vecchia fa buon brodo

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    Dear Sony:
    Please read OP's post.
    Thank you.


    Why not Dalsa? Could Dalsa make medium format CMOS sensor with:


    full frame, and at least 80 Mega Pixels
    multiple frames per second
    live view with focus peaking
    clean ISO up to 6400

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by aztwang View Post
    Bill,

    Are you ready to report with a mini type review??
    Haven't got it yet and Monday is a holiday here so delivery unlikely til mid next week. But I will report!

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I was under the impression that Dalsa was only a CCD maker. And if they started today fabricating cmos sensors, I find it rather difficult they would manage a full frame sensor at first try.


    Quote Originally Posted by steve_cor View Post
    Why not Dalsa? Could Dalsa make medium format CMOS sensor with:


    full frame, and at least 80 Mega Pixels
    multiple frames per second
    live view with focus peaking
    clean ISO up to 6400

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    I was under the impression that Dalsa was only a CCD maker. And if they started today fabricating cmos sensors, I find it rather difficult they would manage a full frame sensor at first try.

    DALSA also makes CMOS chips, but not for medium format. *I wonder if they're working on that. This is an article about Dalsa from 2009:


    https://luminous-landscape.com/an-afternoon-at-dalsa/
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    The things that I would like are full frame, 60+ megapixels, 24 fps live view on back and 800 ISO that is usable at large print sizes. I personally don't have a problem with current CCD technology, but the above mentioned things would make it easier to work with on a technical camera.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    It's coming next year from Sony

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Yes, preferably a good one.

    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by Arjuna View Post
    Shouldn't that be EVF, not OVF?

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I just looked in the tea leaves and can see that a DB with a full-frame CMOS chip will be with us sooner rather than later. Surprisingly soon as it happens. What won't be with us is realistic pricing (sadly), so start saving now.

    Which means, no more tea for me - just hot water with a twist of lemon juice from now on. That said, I still want to see how the A7RII performs on an Aptus with R/S and S/K glass.

    Jim

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Where do you source you "tea leaves"? There are rumours Hasselblad has an imminent announcement, but I've only read that of forums...

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    I just looked in the tea leaves and can see that a DB with a full-frame CMOS chip will be with us sooner rather than later. Surprisingly soon as it happens. What won't be with us is realistic pricing (sadly), so start saving now.

    Which means, no more tea for me - just hot water with a twist of lemon juice from now on. That said, I still want to see how the A7RII performs on an Aptus with R/S and S/K glass.

    Jim

    Over on LuLa, it seems Hasselblad has a new 80MP CMOS coming within less than 2 weeks? at least that what is being said. I could see it being a 80MP CCD with the same chip as the IQ380 as some feel that the Phase One/Dalsa exclusivity agreement has expired. If it truly is a full frame CMOS, then Kudos for Hasselblad.

    Paul

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Where do you source you "tea leaves"? There are rumours Hasselblad has an imminent announcement, but I've only read that of forums...
    I typically prefer a nice cup of Söderblandning ...
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    All it is going to take is for Sony to release an MF camera with interchangeable lenses. They have thrown Nikon and Canon a curve ball in that you can now mount Canon and Nikon glass and get similar performance on the Sony A7RII. Now, they release a mirrorless MF camera without to many native lenses and guess what, all the other MF glass fits on it with an adapter. This would be game over for Phase One and Hassy because you know they wouldn't charge $35K for it although it would still be pricey.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Over on LuLa, it seems Hasselblad has a new 80MP CMOS coming within less than 2 weeks? at least that what is being said. I could see it being a 80MP CCD with the same chip as the IQ380 as some feel that the Phase One/Dalsa exclusivity agreement has expired. If it truly is a full frame CMOS, then Kudos for Hasselblad.

    Paul
    80MP CMOS would be amazing from anyone, but especially from Hasselblad. Hasselblad hasn't led Phase One in the sensor stakes since the H4D-40 vs. the P40+...the Kodak 40MP 6 micron CCD in the Hasselblad was markedly better on ISO and long exposure noise than the Dalsa 40MP 6 micron CCD in the Phase One.
    My gut feeling is that it will turn out to be just the regular Dalsa 80MP CCD in a Hasselblad back, but I hope to be proven wrong.

    Ray

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by steve_cor View Post
    DALSA also makes CMOS chips, but not for medium format.
    Yes they do, but making CMOS sensors is relatively easy - the industry is full of lesser known manufacturers like Aptina and STMicroelectronics. Making large, really low noise CMOS sensors (like Sony's or Canon's) is a lot harder. Samsung have recently moved up to that level of performance. I doubt that Dalsa are anywhere near it.

    Ray

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    ... It's such a joke. They're expensive because they're low volume, but they're low volume because they're expensive!
    I don't know the market to the last detail, but I am VERY sure, they are not expensive because they are low volume.

    Something is wrong with the MFD market - we all knew it since Hasselblad brought the CFV-50 which was a total different price point compared with a H5D-50 minus the camera price.

    Pricing of the Pentax 645Z is another fact. You may say that they need to sell it at this low price because their ecosystem in not "that professional", but I would say that Hassi and Phase have these high prices because they have such a big number of professionals in they ecosystem.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I kind of wish Phase would stop thinking we can continue to afford astronomical pricing. I'm a working pro photographer, and I LOVE my Phase/Arca system, but the price differential compared to Sony/Canon is just so crazy now it makes it almost impossible to think of staying with Phase after my trusty P65 gives out. By that time it's replacement will probably be some 100 Megapixel full frame CMOS that will cost over $60K. They are just becoming too expensive.
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Digital 35mm became the new medium format. Digital MF became the new large format. I think this had to do a lot for the pricing scheme.
    But now D35mm is dangerously aproaching DMF image quality while maintaining the basic prices.
    I'm affraid a DMF mirrorless body would be like Skynet becoming true.

    Eduardo

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Not to mention that the various Sony rumor/news sites haven't talked about their making an MF camera in a long time.

    I'd love an MF version of the RX1, but don't see in happening.

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by Stan ROX View Post
    I don't know the market to the last detail, but I am VERY sure, they are not expensive because they are low volume.
    Stan,
    Not to belittle your comment, but a lot of people in the silicon wafer industry would probably disagree. As I understand chip (and sensor) making, small production series and those gigantic sensors is certainly a part of the problem. Ask any chip maker how production volume affects pricing of anything that comes out of a chip fab. Ask any chip maker how chip area affects yield and thus cost per unit.

    Of course MF makers (perhaps with the exception of Pentax) have identified their core market as not being price sensitive, which affects pricing as well.
    Last edited by Lars; 3rd August 2015 at 19:36.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Dear Phase One,

    I have been committed to our relationship for 10 years now, faithfully through D800's, A7R's, but am starting to look at other wome... camera options, because they are giving me things you are failing to provide:

    I need a modern back, that has 'Live View' EVF out option, so I can set an EVF on my camera, enlarge focus and nail it.
    I need focus peaking on the screen & EVF to confirm that
    I need modern really clean ISO up to 1600. No, Sensor+ does not hack it.
    I need full frame, and at least 80Mp, preferably 100mp

    I would love dedicated AF sensors built into the sensor too (like all the latest Sony ones) but can make do if you give me EVF out.

    Yes, "I", "I" "I", but this relationship is about me and my work, my $, and most important: my creativity.

    In plain speak: Divorce is on the cards if you can't get with the times, announce an IQ3-100 with FF Sony Sensor this year. Sorry, but that's how it looks.
    At least PhaseOne finally has a modern (full frame capable) Medium Format Body in the XF, and backs to match. Not your full frame CMOS yet but man, everything else. Superb System.

  41. #41
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Not to mention that the various Sony rumor/news sites haven't talked about their making an MF camera in a long time.

    I'd love an MF version of the RX1, but don't see in happening.
    Yeah, looks like Sony is focusing on their full frame FE system. The A7RII looks like the camera that might make people drop their full frame pro DSLRs. The next generation of the A7 will surely finish the job.

    I also do not see Sony stepping in the MFD manufacturer's toes. They are happy with them as their clients, for now.

  42. #42
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I was just out shooting with my Linhof Techno, using my trusty loupe to focus on the ground glass. Then sliding in the CCD shooting at ISO50. Damn I'm old school!

    Did I say I used a grad filter too?
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  43. #43
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    I guess you and I are kindred spirits. I'm loving using the Techno with bright GG. I'm yet to miss focus, at any aperture, under a range of light. Like you, I'm welded to 50iso. No grad filters, though!

    And for the record, the DR of the Dalsa CCD is brilliant. I'm yet to run out of headroom or plug up the shadows.

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    I was just out shooting with my Linhof Techno, using my trusty loupe to focus on the ground glass. Then sliding in the CCD shooting at ISO50. Damn I'm old school!

    Did I say I used a grad filter too?

  44. #44
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    I guess you and I are kindred spirits. I'm loving using the Techno with bright GG. I'm yet to miss focus, at any aperture, under a range of light. Like you, I'm welded to 50iso. No grad filters, though!

    And for the record, the DR of the Dalsa CCD is brilliant. I'm yet to run out of headroom or plug up the shadows.
    I'm probably overusing my grads a bit, but I find them kind of fun to use. I like to shoot in stable light conditions when I can work.... very.... slooow...

    I think the old-school tech cam ways are disappearing rapidly now though, soon anything but CMOS live view will be unthinkable to new users. And sure, when I get one where I can do movements without worrying about casts and crosstalk then I'll be very interested. Phase One's pricing has always been impossible for me though, but maybe Hassy will continue the CFV pricing strategy.

    Although I for my current focal lengths really love the old 49x37 size, I think I can live with 44x33 by adding another wide. Just give me live view and a CMOS that doesn't suffer from crosstalk as much.

    I'm not sure if the 645 full-frame will survive in the longer term, the returns of the larger size is really diminishing and production costs may not motivate it. If we have live view and electronic viewfinders the size of the viewfinder can be as large as we'd like regardless of sensor size. In the short term Phase One needs to get one though as their current camera system is designed for 645, and it will come I'm sure, it will be super-expensive, and it will almost totally kill off the CCD range for new sales unless they do a radical price cut.

    That a full-frame CMOS probably will make their CCD range obsolete (except possibly for old-school tech cam users that still care about movements) I guess makes it not so easy to launch.
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  45. #45
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    Re: Dear Phase One - it's 2015! Where is my modern FF back??!

    +1

    Which type of sensor gives the best IQ under optimal conditions is open to debate (I still think that, bathed in light, the image from a CCD chip has a certain something), but in terms of ease of use, CMOS is just so far ahead.

    Which means that when a full-frame CMOS chip appears, it's going to be the one 99% of people want, either to buy or hire. In a stroke it could totally undermine the rationale of continued CCD MFDB manufacture. Which presents a bit of a quandary if you're business has been built on selling CCD backs.

    Jim

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