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Thread: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    New record: HCam B1 Medium Format Camera
    with Canon EF-L 11-24mm modified by Hcam
    14mm focal length and full image circle on an IQ250
    15mm focal length and full image circle on a P45+
    17mm focal length and full image circle on an IQ380
    all longer focal length Zoom settings cover, so this is the superwideangle zoom for all MF Backs.
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    That is great news :-). No more center filters and Custom White for wide angle images.
    I was also wondering if the Hartblei Mamiya RZ to Pentax 645 adapter already is available.
    Best, Peter.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Sorry the Mamiya RB/RZ adapter is cancelled. The Helicoid simply would have become so expensive , that we wouldn´t have earned any money with it.

    But: we are on the way to get an alternative solution (with much more potential) for all RB-RZ Lens owners. ........soon.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    New record: HCam B1 Medium Format Camera
    with Canon EF-L 11-24mm modified by Hcam
    14mm focal length and full image circle on an IQ250
    15mm focal length and full image circle on a P45+
    17mm focal length and full image circle on an IQ380
    all longer focal length Zoom settings cover, so this is the superwideangle zoom for all MF Backs.
    Hi Stefan -

    Based on the shift and rise/fall measurements you posted in the earlier thread, the following are the image circles at various focal lengths:



    Diagonals of the backs (and so, image circles needed to cover them):

    IQ250 - 55mm
    P45+ - 61mm
    IQ380 - 67mm

    I don't see how this lens can cover the P45+ or IQ380 sensors at the focal lengths you are now mentioning?

    What has changed (all of this is from your figures - I've not done any testing myself)?

    (also, an unanswered question from the previous thread - Why are the landscape vertical shifts and portrait horizontal shifts different?)

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Hi Stefan -

    Based on the shift and rise/fall measurements you posted in the earlier thread, the following are the image circles at various focal lengths:



    Diagonals of the backs (and so, image circles needed to cover them):

    IQ250 - 55mm
    P45+ - 61mm
    IQ380 - 67mm

    I don't see how this lens can cover the P45+ or IQ380 sensors at the focal lengths you are now mentioning?

    What has changed (all of this is from your figures - I've not done any testing myself)?

    (also, an unanswered question from the previous thread - Why are the landscape vertical shifts and portrait horizontal shifts different?)

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    Quite simple: as the maximum movements on the adapter are not indicating that it means the image circle is not even bigger than this,
    I used a sony body where the mount is also a limitation, and I used the HCam Master TS which also has a limited diameter (which is ok as it is made for the Sony)
    so a larger sensor with a much larger bajonett (as the EOS is compared to e-mount) and no TS adapter can take full advantage of it.
    And : I have simply tried it on the HCam. Have done some shots and will post later.
    The P45+ was easily covered at 15mm.
    the image circle was even growing further (icould see this in my finder on the HCam as this is the full 58x58mm of the blads format)
    so I can safely say it covers even the large chips, even the Aptus 10 shouldn´t be a problem.
    And the IQ250 is a tad smaller than the P45+ so I can also say it works on 14mm.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Sorry the Mamiya RB/RZ adapter is cancelled. The Helicoid simply would have become so expensive , that we wouldn´t have earned any money with it.

    But: we are on the way to get an alternative solution (with much more potential) for all RB-RZ Lens owners. ........soon.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    I'm sorry to see it confirmed, that you had to cancel the RB/RZ lens adapter.

    Did you see this thread I posted last week, where I fashioned my own RB/RZ lens adapter for the Mamiya/Phase One 645 camera? Not up to Hartblei standards of course, but it does the job for me.

    Ray

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Here as Promised 4 shots HCam B1 with P45+ at 11mm,15mm,20mm and 24mm - if any TS mechanics would exist for the Canon EF-L 11-24mm (onMF)
    from 16mm and Up it could even be shifted......if there would be no additional vignetting, by the mechanism and the bajonett mount.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Here as Promised 4 shots HCam B1 with P45+ at 11mm,15mm,20mm and 24mm - if any TS mechanics would exist for the Canon EF-L 11-24mm (onMF)
    from 16mm and Up it could even be shifted......if there would be no additional vignetting, by the mechanism and the bajonett mount.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Stefan, thanks for the image samples.

    We see that the image just starts to be 'unclipped' in the P45+ sensor corners with the zoom set to a focal length no shorter than 15mm. The sensor is 49.1 x 36.8 mm so this gives a diagonal field of view of 127.9 degrees; call it 128 degrees.

    Shooting the 11-24mm at 11mm on a Canon fullframe DSLR (36.0 x 24.0 mm sensor) gives a diagonal field of view of 126.1 degrees; call it 126 degrees.

    So there's very little difference really in FOV. The test shows that Canon did not build in any 'excess' image circle for their lens - at its shortest setting, it is designed to cover the 36 x 24mm format with nothing to spare. This is not one of those lenses that yields much wider images on medium format than it can on its native 35mm format.

    But at less short settings, there is something to be gained from using it on a medium format sensor - you retain more of the angular field of view while detecting more photons and/or sampling the image with more pixels. There's also the change in aspect ratio which some may prefer - 4:3 vs 3:2 -, and the usual differences in dynamic range & colour response between Canon and medium format Kodak/Dalsa/Sony sensors.

    Best regards,
    Ray

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    Stefan, thanks for the image samples.

    We see that the image just starts to be 'unclipped' in the P45+ sensor corners with the zoom set to a focal length no shorter than 15mm. The sensor is 49.1 x 36.8 mm so this gives a diagonal field of view of 127.9 degrees; call it 128 degrees.

    Shooting the 11-24mm at 11mm on a Canon fullframe DSLR (36.0 x 24.0 mm sensor) gives a diagonal field of view of 126.1 degrees; call it 126 degrees.

    So there's very little difference really in FOV. The test shows that Canon did not build in any 'excess' image circle for their lens - at its shortest setting, it is designed to cover the 36 x 24mm format with nothing to spare. This is not one of those lenses that yields much wider images on medium format than it can on its native 35mm format.

    But at less short settings, there is something to be gained from using it on a medium format sensor - you retain more of the angular field of view while detecting more photons and/or sampling the image with more pixels. There's also the change in aspect ratio which some may prefer - 4:3 vs 3:2 -, and the usual differences in dynamic range & colour response between Canon and medium format Kodak/Dalsa/Sony sensors.

    Best regards,
    Ray
    Look at it from the workflow: first it´s a zoom, you got 14-24mm usable Image sizes for an IQ250.
    second: a Pricing issue: a 23mm Rodenstock is how much - 7900 $ ? And it cannot zoom nor does it have much excess image size for shifting.
    third: you wont need a whiteshot nor a centerfilter for this - look at the samples I didn´t do anything with vignetting - or colorcast - as there is none.
    fourth: save weight and volume, use only one lens for MF and 35mm, even AF on the 35mm.

    fifth: For many a 17mm is already too short, but the 24mm is too long. A 20mm with juice even for shifts is probably a killer focal length.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    Last edited by Stefan Steib; 14th August 2015 at 06:05.
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Quite simple: as the maximum movements on the adapter are not indicating that it means the image circle is not even bigger than this,
    I used a sony body where the mount is also a limitation, and I used the HCam Master TS which also has a limited diameter (which is ok as it is made for the Sony)
    so a larger sensor with a much larger bajonett (as the EOS is compared to e-mount) and no TS adapter can take full advantage of it.
    And : I have simply tried it on the HCam. Have done some shots and will post later.
    The P45+ was easily covered at 15mm.
    the image circle was even growing further (icould see this in my finder on the HCam as this is the full 58x58mm of the blads format)
    so I can safely say it covers even the large chips, even the Aptus 10 shouldn´t be a problem.
    And the IQ250 is a tad smaller than the P45+ so I can also say it works on 14mm.

    Regards
    Stefan
    Ahhh.. so there were adapter limitations then. All makes perfect sense now. Thanks!

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Here as Promised 4 shots HCam B1 with P45+ at 11mm,15mm,20mm and 24mm - if any TS mechanics would exist for the Canon EF-L 11-24mm (onMF)
    from 16mm and Up it could even be shifted......if there would be no additional vignetting, by the mechanism and the bajonett mount.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    How is the IQ at the corner of this lens? is it use-able?

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    As much as I can say now, this 11-24mm is much sharper in the corners than the TS-E 17, from 11mm onwwards and even wide open. Less Astigmatism ( better Focus plane flatness)
    Very few vignetting and keeping up excellent sharpness even to the long end at 24mm.
    I don´t know what kind of Sushi the Canon Lens designers got to eat, but I also want that.
    Tremendous lens. Outstanding. And even better: sample Variation nearly zero. I now had about 8 of these in my hands. One like the other.

    Probably this lens knowhow is a reason why Canon has their customers. And as long as they build stuff like this: well deserved !
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Stefan - Can post 100% crops from the edges with something containing meaningful detail. Considering how soft this lens is in the corners on a 5D3 or 5DS at 11mm, and it never ever gets even close to sharp in the corners, I can only surmise that it gets even worse the farther away from the center you get.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by pfigen View Post
    Stefan - Can post 100% crops from the edges with something containing meaningful detail. Considering how soft this lens is in the corners on a 5D3 or 5DS at 11mm, and it never ever gets even close to sharp in the corners, I can only surmise that it gets even worse the farther away from the center you get.
    I have no idea what you are talking about. The lens is tack sharp corner to corner, also and especially at 11mm.
    Example: Sony A7R + Metabones, Canon EF 11-24f4 L @*11f11

    full pic at 1200x800
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    100% crop lower left corner
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    100% crop upper right corner
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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about. The lens is tack sharp corner to corner, also and especially at 11mm.
    Example: Sony A7R + Metabones, Canon EF 11-24f4 L @*11f11
    That's certainly impressive. But perhaps pfigen's contrary observations might be explained by this: both corners of your shot are in the foreground. Some wideangle lenses have field curvature which bends the focal surface in a way that favours the foreground. Just wondering if pfigen's "it never ever gets even close to sharp in the corners" conclusion is derived from shooting distant objects in the corners.

    Ray

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    The lower left corner of the first crop is not sharp at all. The other one is pretty good. I've been shooting a lot of test images with the lens on a 5DS R and it's a real mixed bag. Focus is extremely critical to get sharp, well focused images, but subject matter is just as important. I shot out in the alley behind my studio and put some chain link fence in the extreme corner and it was what I would say - okay. Pretty good, but not great. I have a huge - something like eight feet by thirteen feet lens test chart on one wall in the studio - y'know, just for the hell of it, and when I put part of that to the corner of the frame, well, it just looks like **** no matter how it's focused or what aperture is used - at about twenty feet away. The black and white alternating resolution lines are pretty harsh on showing what a lens can really do. Acceptable resolution all depends on print size and viewing distance, so for many applications this lens will appear great, but for critical work, I'm not yet convinced. And I have yet to see any full res complete frames posted by Stefan or anyone else using Stefan's system. The reason I'm so skeptical of this application of use for this lens is that the far corner performance is already marginal and I can't see how it's going to get any better shifted. I've asked Stefan about full res frames and have never seen one that he has posted or linked to.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    At 11mm this lens actually resolves more detail in the corners than it does in the center.

    We did some extensive tests of this lens to assess its suitability for shooting (spherical) panoramas on the 5DsR.

    I'm out at the moment but will post samples later.

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    maybe ur lens is not "perfect"

    here another left lower corner crop for your evaluation
    i call this "sharp"

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    and like another dpi fellow said, you might have to focus at the corner via lifeview to optimize the image for corner sharpness due to evtl. field curvature of the lens

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Here are the comparisons to show how this lens actually resolves more detail towards the corners than it does towards the center.





    It's all down to the rectilinear projection that is captured at the sensor.

    The same object will be projected over more pixels towards the corners of the lens than it will towards the center. When you then re-project the image in spherical space to correct for the distortion of the rectilinear projection, the results are clear.


    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    In addition: setting the sony a7rii with the 17tse vertical and shifting with the hcam/mirex left and right to the edge of the image circle (which is app. 18mm left & right ) this results in a 85Mp image with a ratio of 2:3 and a field of view very similar than the 11mm lens and you can still shift up and down with the tse app. 5mm. Interesting setup too, at least in arch. and landscape photography with not moving subjects, the practical need for fov wider than 17mm is rare, but in this way even without having a wider lense in the bag this ultrawide range down to 11mm is easily (and shiftable) covered with the 17tse and the genial accessory of a second shift layer. The 17tse is really sharp all over the frame, as is the 24tse and the contax 35pc.

    Interesting is also, that the 17tse seems to have a very similar image circle than the 11-24mm, i dont have the zoom but the front element of this both lenses looks very similar as well.
    Last edited by rainerv; 6th September 2015 at 03:22.

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Quote Originally Posted by rainerv View Post
    In addition: setting the sony a7rii with the 17tse vertical and shifting with the hcam/mirex left and right to the edge of the image circle (which is app. 18mm left & right ) this results in a 85Mp image with a ratio of 2:3 and a field of view very similar than the 11mm lens and you can still shift up and down with the tse app. 5mm. Interesting setup too, at least in arch. and landscape photography with not moving subjects, the practical need for fov wider than 17mm is rare, but in this way even without having a wider lense in the bag this ultrawide range down to 11mm is easily (and shiftable) covered with the 17tse and the genial accessory of a second shift layer. The 17tse is really sharp all over the frame, as is the 24tse and the contax 35pc.

    Interesting is also, that the 17tse seems to have a very similar image circle than the 11-24mm, i dont have the zoom but the front element of this both lenses looks very similar as well.
    17mm on FF MFDB is - as near as makes very little difference - the same as 11mm FoV on 35mm. I've been shooting with the 17TS-E on IQ180 for several years now (starting with the H-Cam, and then the Alpa FPS).

    So yes, if you're going to shift the sensor of a 35mm camera around the lens' image circle, then the end result is indeed going to be very similar to 11mm on 35mm. Of course it is far more advantageous to us it on MF and capture everything in a single shot.

    It should be noted that the 17TS-E is absolutely NOT "really sharp" all over the frame. It does start to fall apart in the corners at any aperture under around f/11 or so. The 24 TS-E is a lot sharper than the 17 across all apertures.

    What's interesting is that with the introduction of the 11-24, there are now "11mm FoV 35mm equivalent" options for all formats -

    17 TS-E on the IQ180
    11-24 at 14mm on an IQ250
    11-24 at 11mm on 35mm.

    The front elements of the 11-24 and the 17TS-E, whilst superficially similar, are very different sizes.

    Kind regards,


    Gerald.

    /edit
    (Should probably mention that it's the diagonal FoV that I'm referring to. Obviously you have to consider the different aspect ratios as well - 35mm will give you wider horizontal but shorter vertical FoV.)

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    Re: HCam B1 with Canon EF-L 11-24mm New wideangle records

    Just to give a short life sign, actually I am right now in the middle of my next articles for german digit!, doing a comparison of several lenses (also the 11-24mm) on a 5Dsr and a A7RII. The next batch of adapters is soon showing up and that is right now my main focus. The Most interesting test would be to do the modded 11-24mm on an HCam or Alpa FPS with the largest possible chip = Leaf Aptus 10. I don´t have one, so I have to rely on others to check that.

    About the 11-24mm and higher resolutions than the actual 50 Mpix Canon. I am looking into superresolution right now and that is probably where the juice will be very soon.
    The olympus already does it with an MFT Chip in camera. I am right now looking into doing it with my Sony A7RII. when I have some results I will post.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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