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Thread: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

  1. #51
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    You make me laugh Jono..Show some shots you made with the big boy.
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    It seems to me that no S007s have been shipped to customers yet... Only price announcements and reports from different photographers that where given to test pre production models...

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    It seems to me that no S007s have been shipped to customers yet... Only price announcements and reports from different photographers that where given to test pre production models...
    No surprise given that the official release date is august 31st,I'm waiting on one.

    Rob

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by RVB View Post
    No surprise given that the official release date is august 31st,I'm waiting on one.

    Rob
    But they haven't announced an "official" release date... have they?

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Leica Store Miami had one In Stock this week. It seems to be gone now...

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    But they haven't announced an "official" release date... have they?
    B&H say August 31st on the placeholder and my own dealer here in Europe says expected delivery is 1st week of sept.
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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Performance or not, me just want smaller lenses because it ain't practical. The camera itself is ok in size but with lenses + sunshade ... it start to represent a certain volume. Leica midgetized 35mm lenses for M system (and they are manual focus) I would like midgetized S lenses, Manual focus of course.

    I do not know when the 007 will land near me but sure my dealer will lend it to me for an afternoon in town, as usual. Can't wait.

    On a table it ain't small at all, on the shoulder it ain't comfortable at all (with the 70 so Imagine with the 120...).

    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Has diglloyd found a fundamentally bad aspect to the camera or obscure earth shattering fault yet? I'm waiting to hear ... He'll find something I'm sure.

    Just kidding of course!

    I used the predecessor on a few occasions and really loved the system but I'm too invested in Phase One glass to change the MF DSLR side of my gear.
    It didn't take long.. diglloyd: Sony A7R II: the EVF (and why Canon and Nikon suck and are clueless about what is useful)

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    It still is the smallest (in size) than any other "MF" (meaning with sensor larger than 35mm film)... isn't it? And the lenses aren't bulkier than direct competition...

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Do people actually pay money to read stuff like that?? I can't comprehend how anyone could read anything written in that style and then take the reviews as anything other than utter nonsense! I have never paid for someone's opinion, reading that passage justifies it for me, pointless.

    Mat

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    It still is the smallest (in size) than any other "MF" (meaning with sensor larger than 35mm film)... isn't it? And the lenses aren't bulkier than direct competition...
    I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it's size, I even find the 645Z to be pretty good in the hand. The S lenses are solid chunks of metal, compared to your typical plastic Mamiya or Pentax lens, and can be forward-heavy, especially the zoom lens.

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Do people actually pay money to read stuff like that??
    I don't visit his site either nor do I intend to, but people decide how much and what to spend money on, and I don't think it's ever right to judge, especially since this is a forum where we're talking about cameras that cost more than most people would ever consider spending on a car. A year's subscription to his site amounts to visiting a nice local diner twice for two people or once with four of us, or maybe skip picking up breakfast as the deli for a week.
    Last edited by Kolor-Pikker; 31st August 2015 at 08:52.

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    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Ok... Now he lost every bit of credibility. I thought, some years ago, that this guy was serious but when you read gross things like this... dunno what to think about, just sad. I give all credits to ken Rockwell and absolutely NOT to Gordon Moore...

    Canon and Nikon stay on OVF because they develop holographic prism projection (augmented reality), not because they are sleeping, and that take time.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    It still is the smallest (in size) than any other "MF" (meaning with sensor larger than 35mm film)... isn't it? And the lenses aren't bulkier than direct competition...
    Yes, it is. I always take reference in film. When you see the size of mamyia 7 lenses and especially the "sensor" behind those lenses (without vignetting... that mean it can go over 6x7), I think it is possible to miniaturize MF lenses. This have been done decades ago. Ok they are not that fast. But, based on Leica background of miniaturizing lenses, I thought it was possible for them to do it on the S line (given the fact that the sensor is all but not 6x7 !!).

    Actually, reporters won't use a M8/M9/M240 like they used a M6... they won't use M at all because it became extremely fragile in comparison to film day. The only "rugged" digital leica solution (even called "leica pro format") is the S system. The S ain't a camera you will lung around every where, especially because it is not discrete (so, prone to attract thieves) or that light.

    Leica might craft some f4 manual lenses, even pancakes, for those situations and maybe a SP, like the MP, without any sign of branding.

    This is just a wish not a rant
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Hulyss

    I carry the S everywhere and always with at least 3 lenses, I don't find it too heavy at all, I actually really like the weight and size, it's easy to hold steady and is built so well that you can just use it everywhere. I took the kit to Mali and for 2 months followed troops training and deploying in really bad conditions, weight is just at the bottom of my thoughts when compared to the images it supplies. I carry it every day and everywhere I go!

    We are all prepared to put up with different things but I can honestly say, weight and size just aren't an issue for me personally.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Yes, hopefully there is a reward, the IQ. Weight isn't an issue for me either. Balance is. On the shoulder without lenses it's perfect. With the lens it is not (not like a 35mm with a 50). I was not comfortable. But that's just me. I would feel even less comfortable shooting with it in certain towns, even in my country, without military protection You see what I mean; it's something you'll have hard time dissimulating. Roughly, you do not go out with this kind of gear "like this !". It need some organisation.

    Seen your assignment, nice work and glad you here in one piece
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hulyss Bowman View Post
    Yes, it is. I always take reference in film. When you see the size of mamyia 7 lenses and especially the "sensor" behind those lenses (without vignetting... that mean it can go over 6x7), I think it is possible to miniaturize MF lenses. This have been done decades ago. Ok they are not that fast. But, based on Leica background of miniaturizing lenses, I thought it was possible for them to do it on the S line (given the fact that the sensor is all but not 6x7 !!).
    This is a common topic, but the problem it seems here is one of incident light, as film didn't care what angle photons struck its surface, whereas sensors do.
    Smearing, color shifts, cross-talk, moiré, all of these things stem from lenses that do not utilize a retrofocus design, the very aspect that leads SLR lenses to be large, bulky and expensive. Symmetrical lenses can be tiny, but they will wreak havok on many modern sensors, especially wide angles in close proximity to the sensor plane.
    As a result, many cameras that do not even utilize a mirror still need lenses that project light perpendicular to the sensor plane, just to be able to record a usable image.
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Ok so telecentric lenses are mandatory... Sensor technology is not, yet, at the top. Hope that will change within 5 years or a decade max ...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    This is a common topic, but the problem it seems here is one of incident light, as film didn't care what angle photons struck its surface, whereas sensors do.
    Smearing, color shifts, cross-talk, moiré, all of these things stem from lenses that do not utilize a retrofocus design, the very aspect that leads SLR lenses to be large, bulky and expensive. Symmetrical lenses can be tiny, but they will wreak havok on many modern sensors, especially wide angles in close proximity to the sensor plane.
    As a result, many cameras that do not even utilize a mirror still need lenses that project light perpendicular to the sensor plane, just to be able to record a usable image.
    Interestingly, the Leica/CMOSIS designed sensor in the Leica S007 is based off of the same architecture as that in the M240. Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market. While S lenses are retrofocus designs in order to accommodate the 54mm flange-to-sensor distance (mirror box and mount), theoretically this sensor could be used for non-retrofocus designs if ever a mirrorless camera were developed. This sensor would also mitigate the issues inherent with movements, for the same reasons. For more info:


    http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Interestingly, the Leica/CMOSIS designed sensor in the Leica S007 is based off of the same architecture as that in the M240. Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market. While S lenses are retrofocus designs in order to accommodate the 54mm flange-to-sensor distance (mirror box and mount), theoretically this sensor could be used for non-retrofocus designs if ever a mirrorless camera were developed. This sensor would also mitigate the issues inherent with movements, for the same reasons.
    Yes, angled micro lenses do help to some degree, adding BSI would too, and curved sensors even more so. The M240 still uses software correction for artifacts, and some people are claiming better results with the new A7RII than the M240 with M glass if you take software out of the equation.

    I really want to see advancements in digital viewfinders that would do justice for a camera like this.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Yes, angled micro lenses do help to some degree, adding BSI would too, and curved sensors even more so. The M240 still uses software correction for artifacts, and some people are claiming better results with the new A7RII than the M240 with M glass if you take software out of the equation.

    I really want to see advancements in digital viewfinders that would do justice for a camera like this.
    The CMOSIS chip doesn't use angled microlenses. Leica previously employed offset microlenses on the M8 and M9. The CMOSIS chip changes the basic microlens shape from a flattened droplet to a conical peak. This catches the light at oblique angles and directs it down, without impeding light entering straight down. The Leica optical team provided the microlens design to CMOSIS for this chip.

    I've already shot a lot with the S007 (in excess of 4000 shots), all without LR support. No camera profile, and more importantly no lens profiles. I'd say the lenses/sensor did an admirable job with regards to corner sharpness, vignetting, color consistency, etc. without lens corrections.

    As far as viewfinders go, have you seen the one in the Q?
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market.
    Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Doug,

    You have to expect a bit of hyperbole when salesmen talk about their products.

    Don't you think?

    SG
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.
    You are correct that the S cannot be mounted like a MFDB to test the theory. But, with Leica's recent acquisition of Sinar, you never know what the future holds....
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    As far as viewfinders go, have you seen the one in the Q?
    I don't bother looking at cameras that feature integrated fixed-focal lenses, I'm sure that there is a demographic to which this has appeal, but it's not even a consideration for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    You are correct that the S cannot be mounted like a MFDB to test the theory. But, with Leica's recent acquisition of Sinar, you never know what the future holds....
    If it came down to choosing a digital-back type camera, I'd sooner want something utilizing Sony sensor tech than CMOSIS, especially since the former is already available, and that we have an early idea of the fact that the S007 sensor isn't quite as good the Sony IMX161. Wouldn't want to test that theory anyway.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Hi,

    Yes, I think so. Is the type 007 using the CMOSIS sensor? I would say present state info is less clear. The 15 EV of DR would not be compatible with the CMOSIS design and it seems that the Leica Q uses a non Sony sensor of undisclosed design.

    It may be possible that Sinar will release products based on the same sensor. It may also be possible that all horses left the stable.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    I don't bother looking at cameras that feature integrated fixed-focal lenses, I'm sure that there is a demographic to which this has appeal, but it's not even a consideration for me.
    I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.


    If it came down to choosing a digital-back type camera, I'd sooner want something utilizing Sony sensor tech than CMOSIS, especially since the former is already available, and that we have an early idea of the fact that the S007 sensor isn't quite as good the Sony IMX161. Wouldn't want to test that theory anyway.
    Sure, there are plenty of Sony-based DBs on the market, and Leica hasn't announced any plans for one at this point. But, with Leica's resources, it would be interesting to see how they might implement one. And, we don't know the full potential of the updated CMOSIS sensor in the S007 quite yet. Right now there are no camera profiles in LR for it. I saw a rather significant jump in IQ between versions of LR when I was testing the Q back in June, especially related to noise performance. Even still, the current S007 high ISO is nothing to sneeze at. Here is a test shot I did at ISO 6400, handheld at 1/30th of a sec, wide open on the 45mm.



    Here's a 100% crop.



    Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.


    To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    Yes, I think so. Is the type 007 using the CMOSIS sensor? I would say present state info is less clear. The 15 EV of DR would not be compatible with the CMOSIS design and it seems that the Leica Q uses a non Sony sensor of undisclosed design.

    It may be possible that Sinar will release products based on the same sensor. It may also be possible that all horses left the stable.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Erik you are a real surprise... You must be about the only person on earth that doesn't know that 007 is Cmos and also the only on earth that doesn't know that Leica CMos sensors are developed with CMOSIS and are made exclusive for Leica by CMOSIS... Why you say CMOSIS is incapable to make a sensor with 15 stops of DR capability? Did you ask them to make one of 15stops exclusive for you, payed them and they refused? ...it wouldn't surprise me if you did!

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Yes,

    That was reported at Photokina. But the latest report I have seen said undisclosed vendor but not Sony. The Leica Q does not use the CMOSIS sensor. Just to make it clear, CMOSIS is chip design company, they don't make sensors. The Leica M (240) sensor is made at ST Microelectronics in Belgium. As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

    So the question is justified.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Ps. Michael Reichmann has previewed the S (typ 007) and he writes:

    The sensor in the Leica S(007) is a new CMOS design. Leica has not mentioned who the manufacturer is, but it is definitely not Sony.




    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    Erik you are a real surprise... You must be about the only person on earth that doesn't know that 007 is Cmos and also the only on earth that doesn't know that Leica CMos sensors are developed with CMOSIS and are made exclusive for Leica by CMOSIS... Why you say CMOSIS is incapable to make a sensor with 15 stops of DR capability? Did you ask them to make one of 15stops exclusive for you, payed them and they refused? ...it wouldn't surprise me if you did!
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 1st September 2015 at 22:20.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Hulyss

    I carry the S everywhere and always with at least 3 lenses, I don't find it too heavy at all, I actually really like the weight and size, it's easy to hold steady and is built so well that you can just use it everywhere. I took the kit to Mali and for 2 months followed troops training and deploying in really bad conditions, weight is just at the bottom of my thoughts when compared to the images it supplies. I carry it every day and everywhere I go!

    We are all prepared to put up with different things but I can honestly say, weight and size just aren't an issue for me personally.

    Mat
    Mat

    You will change your mind when you get older and then you will be longing for a camera with the 1/10 of the weight of your LEICA but the same product and image quality .
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Yes,

    As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

    So the question is justified.

    Best regards
    Erik
    So... what you are saying is that the sensor is not a CMOSIS design because: 1. If it was, they wouldn't design a new sensor, but use an up-sized one from the M240... 2. CMOSIS doesn't design new sensors, only uses the ones before... right?

    Well... I'm sure Aristoteles (the founder of the fundamentals of the logical theory) would consider such an assumption not supported by enough to be accepted as a conclusion....

    A logical approach would be that the M240 FF sensor was a first attempt from Leica to use CMos sensors looking at the general path (and the results) that the competition achieves and now, they are after a new generation of new sensors (that would include a modern replacement of the M240 sensor) that would challenge the better of the sensors that the competition uses...

    There are some hints to support this argument, here is a few (out of the many) one would consider as being common sense...

    1. Is that being a leader for image quality, is what is expected from Leica as their tradition suggests.
    2. Is that larger sensors can be cropped to smaller ones, but there was never a small sensor used in industry that was up sized into a larger one (for example, never an APS-c sensor was up-sized and used on a FF DSLR)...
    3. Is that Leica is now a big group of companies that are all of leading technology in the imaging industry... Thus, It is necessary for them to have full control over the capabilities that the sensors that will be used in their designs will have...

    Personally based on the above assumptions, I'm very sure that a version of the new sensor will be used on the M240 replacement and that the future Sinarbacks will use another version of the new generation of sensors...

    I also expect an MF platform that will be a modular design with removable backs to be integrated into the Leica group of companies as to "bridge" Sinarbacks with the S-system... IMO, this platform will use lenses that (via an adapter) will be compatible with Leica S and the same lenses will be able to be used on a compact new view camera (much like the size of the Universalis or the Actus) that Sinar will make...

    That new MF platform, I expect it to be an existing one rather than them investing on a new design... And (due to the "C" or "H" adapters), I expect it either to be a resurrection of the Contax 645 system (with some modern modifications on the body and some additional lenses) or end up Leica buying Hasselblad and use the H system.... It all depends on my opinion with what the status will be by the end of the year, where (under international law) Kyocera is excluded from financial rights out of the Contax system (ten years after they stopped production).

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by jotloob View Post
    Mat

    You will change your mind when you get older and then you will be longing for a camera with the 1/10 of the weight of your LEICA but the same product and image quality .
    Well of course that is entirely correct although I have just turned 43, hardly over the hill but not a spring chicken either! I'm not a Leica guy, never had one before and have no interest in the history, it just happens that out of all the cameras that I tried, the one best suited to everything I wanted from a camera happened to be made by Leica, I honestly couldn't care less if it had been made by any other manufacturer, it is just of no importance to me. If there was a camera available now that gave me what I wanted at 1/10th of the weight or even better, cost, I'd have already bought it!

    Here's to not getting old and knackered! Now where did I put my glasses?

    Mat
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.
    I see, well, the resolution isn't as much of interest (to me) as the responsiveness ( esp. in low light), if I want focus accuracy I'd use magnification anyway. This is of course partly a problem of the CPU being able to quickly and efficiently pull an image off the sensor, which I believe is hard to do on large and high-res sensors. I know of one local Leica boutique so I could at least take a look at (through) it to see the state of this tech.

    Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.

    To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?
    The noise does look dangerously similar to what I get with the 645Z, which is a good thing, it also has nearly all-monochromatic noise even at high ISOs. Except I'd expect that level of noise at 12,800 not 6400. I'm not banging on the S at all here, I was fully expecting it to do worse

    I can also hand-hold the 645Z with 55mm at 1/30th well enough, although 1/125th is probably a better idea for guaranteed sharpness, also keep in mind that camera shake is a factor of pixel density, so at 51mp the Z invariably needs higher speeds to start with. The hot topic right now is image stabilization, so I'm disappointed to see Leica not take initiative in this direction since the S seems so heavily focused on hand-held use, what with Sony already showing everyone that IBIS can be done even in a compact mirrorless full-frame camera. Pentax already has two IS lenses out, but Leica could have their entire lineup with stabilization if they go this route.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Yes,

    That was reported at Photokina. But the latest report I have seen said undisclosed vendor but not Sony. The Leica Q does not use the CMOSIS sensor. Just to make it clear, CMOSIS is chip design company, they don't make sensors. The Leica M (240) sensor is made at ST Microelectronics in Belgium. As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

    So the question is justified.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Ps. Michael Reichmann has previewed the S (typ 007) and he writes:

    The sensor in the Leica S(007) is a new CMOS design. Leica has not mentioned who the manufacturer is, but it is definitely not Sony.
    Misinformation does no one any good. Let me clarify:

    The sensor in the S007 is the same Leica/CMOSIS architecture as the one in the M240, manufactured by ST Micro. It features updated D/A electronics, new readout hardware and new algorithms in the Maestro II image processing engine. The base ISO has also been dropped one stop. Cumulatively, these changes allow it to achieve a higher DR of 15 stops.

    It is not a new design, just a tweaked one over the one used in the M240.

    The information that you quoted Michael on would apply to the Q, not the S. I have talked to the product managers of the S and to the head of R&D at Leica. My information is accurate.


    Photokina 2014: Day 2 – Everything you need to know about the Leica S (Typ 007) | Red Dot Forum

    Why Leica is staying at 37.5MP for the S (Typ 007) | Red Dot Forum
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.
    Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    I see, well, the resolution isn't as much of interest (to me) as the responsiveness ( esp. in low light), if I want focus accuracy I'd use magnification anyway. This is of course partly a problem of the CPU being able to quickly and efficiently pull an image off the sensor, which I believe is hard to do on large and high-res sensors. I know of one local Leica boutique so I could at least take a look at (through) it to see the state of this tech.
    With the Maestro II processor, the refresh rate is 60 fps, which results in very smooth, lag-free live view. The LV on the S007 is particularly smooth, with no redrawing necessary as you scroll around the image at 100%. Exposure simulation is also instantaneous. In low light, LV still works great. I used it when using ND filters for long exposures. You can't see anything in the optical viewfinder, but the picture looks totally normal on the LCD. Very helpful. If you do go see the Q, you'll find that its LV at night is very, very good.


    The noise does look dangerously similar to what I get with the 645Z, which is a good thing, it also has nearly all-monochromatic noise even at high ISOs. Except I'd expect that level of noise at 12,800 not 6400. I'm not banging on the S at all here, I was fully expecting it to do worse
    And, we still don't know what official Adobe support for the camera will bring relative to noise and high ISO.


    I can also hand-hold the 645Z with 55mm at 1/30th well enough, although 1/125th is probably a better idea for guaranteed sharpness, also keep in mind that camera shake is a factor of pixel density, so at 51mp the Z invariably needs higher speeds to start with. The hot topic right now is image stabilization, so I'm disappointed to see Leica not take initiative in this direction since the S seems so heavily focused on hand-held use, what with Sony already showing everyone that IBIS can be done even in a compact mirrorless full-frame camera. Pentax already has two IS lenses out, but Leica could have their entire lineup with stabilization if they go this route.

    I have another shot that's sharp at 1/15th handheld, if that would help illustrate my point any better.

    Leica has shied away from IS on the S because of its inherent image quality loss. Even on the Q, which is aimed at a totally different segment, the manual states that IS is off by default as it offers better image quality to not use it. Leica is emphatic on this point. They will not purposely degrade IQ, even if it is a small amount, for the sake of features.
    David Farkas
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by thrice View Post
    It is pretty clear to me that Leica acquired Sinar in order to gain professional credibility and be the first brand to offer solutions in every category of camera. I have seen no growth, no extra product development and certainly a very disruptive influence on the product distribution that Sinar had.
    One thing is for sure... none invests money in our days to lose money!!! IMO Leica has invested on to Sinar and additionally counted for the (sort future) loses before they will apply any changes... IMO it will all start (with Sinar) after the new sensor will be implemented in the next to come series of Sinarbacks... I'm pretty sure that Sinar is a very important part of of all their pre-calculated and very carefully planned future to dominate all high end photography and professional photography...

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can.
    That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    I thought insulting posts about people's ignorance were frowned upon here.

    I guess I'll have to watch out for ignorant comments (and commenters) so I can point out their error.
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    Leica has shied away from IS on the S because of its inherent image quality loss. Even on the Q, which is aimed at a totally different segment, the manual states that IS is off by default as it offers better image quality to not use it. Leica is emphatic on this point. They will not purposely degrade IQ, even if it is a small amount, for the sake of features.
    If the IS system is causing quality loss, it's probably as a result of a poor implementation, rather than something that's inherently wrong with the system. Does the Q's stabilization work like Olympus and Sony's 5-axis or is it digital? the latter is obviously a poor choice. There was never a time when I purposefully disabled IS on any of my Canon lenses, even when shooting at higher shutter speeds and in good light.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I have talked to the product managers of the S and to the head of R&D at Leica. My information is accurate.
    Just a quick thank you to David Farkas who shares all this info here, and on other forums.

    Much appreciated!
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
    Sorry ....

    Heads up !!!!

    Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

    He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

    Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

    Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

    Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

    JMHO.

    Regards,

    Bob
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Sorry ....

    Heads up !!!!

    Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

    He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

    Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

    Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

    Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

    JMHO.

    Regards,

    Bob
    Indeed, time will tell if the investing in Sinar was a wise decision.

    We remember as Leica tried to acquire Sinar several years ago and withdraw unexpectedly. After that Sinar moved the office and became a smaller company.
    It's a second attempt for Leica to join forces with what is left of Sinar.
    The brand recognition is still very good, and I know from my own experience of personal interaction with the Sinar staff that they are very knowledgeable and capable people. Their electronic shutter system is very advanced, the new cameras eventually will be smaller and more adapted to the new generation of live view digital backs.
    Leica will never be the same, it's moving away from being a Hermes company.

    BTW, the investment prophecy and ability to make money in my view shall not be an argument. You never know, maybe some other members of the board can buy Leica and Sinar (Companies) together for cash. What is important, I believe , that Leica have been trying to do business with Sinar and invested a serious amount of money into them.
    It's very difficult to see the reasons of the business decisions from the outside, but we can speculate here.

    From the recent press release we know that the new Sinarbacks will be available early next year. Than we will see if the landscape is changed. I am still using my Sinarback 54H with the LC -Shutter for live view and I am not impressed enough with the other solutions to change the camp yet.

    Yevgeny

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do... It's like advising one that bought a goldmine to shut it down... Sinar's experience and knowledge into managing color are second to none and so is their tradition for the best cameras with movements in the world... IMO Sinar will be selling more MFDBs than P1 in the near future and the cameras to come will put both Cambo and Arca in a very difficult position... Also... I expect Sinar to be the leaders in software for accurate professional work shortly...
    Sinar do indeed have the best multishot back currently in the world - it is the system of choice amongst many museums and galleries when it comes to accurate reproduction of colour. Sinar has always had the best colour tech. I have owned and tested every manufacturer's offerings in MFD over the last 15 years. Search the history of this site- and you will find I was using an Alpa with Schneider lenses and MFD backs - before most had ever even heard of the brand. As for Sinar and MFD experience - I own and use an HY6 system ( a camera now that is not supported ) as well as an artec system in Hy6 mount. Do your research and see how Sinar has treated its past customers who invested deeply in their systems - it has been atrocious. The company was a rabble - before Leica took them over.

    Now you say Sinar has all this knowledge about camera movements and manufacturing of cameras - and I say to you have you seen the Sinar manufacturing capability - are you aware of how they go about building their cameras - when they did , who the outsourced agencies were that they used? Are you aware of just how tiny the tech camera market is? Forget reference to sites like this - which is inhabited by high end camera enthusiasts most of whom are capable of making a nice photograph. ..

    So you say Leica will make a digital back for Sinar - as part of a master plan to dominate the high end professional world- and I say that the well healed amateur photographer is a bigger market for MFD than your so called high end professionals - and has been for nearly a decade.
    I ask you and what will people do with their Leica / Sinar MFD back - what system(s) will this MFD back attach itself to? and how big is this market?

    The LeicaSinar MFD back could attach itself to existing tech cameras- but these cameras use Rodensotck and Schneider lenses - will Leica like the idea of becoming a bit player in this type of market? I think not.
    So you say well leica can build its own MF camera body and I say to do what compete with the S camera ? Really
    So you say well a Leica/Sinar back can attach itself to all the legacy Sinar Studio cameras- and I say to you - have you ever used some of this clunky rubbish with a MFD back and tried to get accurate camera movements and focus and are you aware of the many improved technologies available to high end studios for product shots ??

    So yes - Leica IS a very good company making very good products I own and use many of these myself - however I can't 'see' Leica investing in new tech camera systems optimised for tech camera shooting using a new digital back and a new line of leica badged tech lenses - to compete in a diminishing market against established optics companies like Schneider and Rodenstock - who quite frankly have their own problems...

    and even if they did - apart from dusty corners of enthusiast photographers like this forum - who would really care - how big are these new high end markets?

    Now look at some well known architectural photographers - many are shifting to modified small movement systems from Arca and Cambo etc - and attaching Sony A7R/R11 or Nikon or Canon DSLR bodies and using their own existing lenses or buying a set of Hartblei type lenses or even cheaper buying and using canon tilt shift lenses

    So my opinion coming from a user of Sinar/Leica/Alpa/Hasselblad/Phase One and Leaf /Son/Nikon/Canon/Rodenstock and Schneider as well as various tech camera systems from Sunar/Arca and now soon Cambo - is just what exactly is Leica going to bring to this market and why?

    I can tell you from Sinar dealers that I know - that their work today is mainly trying to explain why a client's Hy6 cant be fixed and why the Artec was built with such little adaptability as far as mount systems go- and not even designed for easy nodal point shooting...yes the occasional sale of a high end multi-shot back might happen - that is the one area where quality can still compete against the marketing BS from Phase One and its single shot nonsense. Big deal.

    One final thing - I had the benefit of a classical education - and if my memory serves correct your user name alludes to teach or teaching - a good teacher never insults his would be students.

    No hard feelings - for me it is all about fun.

    - Pete
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Sorry ....

    Heads up !!!!

    Peter has probably made more money investing than the rest of us combined ...

    He has the ability to read deeper into situations than you or I will ever be able to do.

    Bold yes ... ignorant ... not by my estimation.

    Would be best to know who you diss before you do so.

    Otherwise you look a bit uninformed. And that is a generous way of spinning it.

    JMHO.

    Regards,

    Bob
    The phrase "That's among the most bold statements an ignorant would ever do..." doesn't have to do with Peter as a person or photographer or aims to claim that Peter is an ignorant... It simply means that since the statement "Leica would do well to walk away from any thoughts of resurrecting the Sinar brand as fast as they can" is a bold one by definition (ie lucks reasoning)... usually, ignorants do such a statement... I'm sure that Peter's later statement (where he admits Sinar's superiority on many image quality aspects - maybe the most important ones for some of us..) explains what he really meant... We all (that have been or are customers of Sinar) have complains about some of Sinar's past policies and perhaps the financial collapse of the company was their own fault... but I'm sure Leica bought the company to use (and help maximize) the technology aspects where Sinar is a world leader... not to close it down!

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Stop it.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post

    Now you say Sinar has all this knowledge about camera movements and manufacturing of cameras - and I say to you have you seen the Sinar manufacturing capability - are you aware of how they go about building their cameras - when they did , who the outsourced agencies were that they used? Are you aware of just how tiny the tech camera market is? Forget reference to sites like this - which is inhabited by high end camera enthusiasts most of whom are capable of making a nice photograph. ..

    So you say Leica will make a digital back for Sinar - as part of a master plan to dominate the high end professional world- and I say that the well healed amateur photographer is a bigger market for MFD than your so called high end professionals - and has been for nearly a decade.
    I ask you and what will people do with their Leica / Sinar MFD back - what system(s) will this MFD back attach itself to? and how big is this market?

    The LeicaSinar MFD back could attach itself to existing tech cameras- but these cameras use Rodensotck and Schneider lenses - will Leica like the idea of becoming a bit player in this type of market? I think not.
    So you say well leica can build its own MF camera body and I say to do what compete with the S camera ? Really
    So you say well a Leica/Sinar back can attach itself to all the legacy Sinar Studio cameras- and I say to you - have you ever used some of this clunky rubbish with a MFD back and tried to get accurate camera movements and focus and are you aware of the many improved technologies available to high end studios for product shots ??

    So yes - Leica IS a very good company making very good products I own and use many of these myself - however I can't 'see' Leica investing in new tech camera systems optimised for tech camera shooting using a new digital back and a new line of leica badged tech lenses - to compete in a diminishing market against established optics companies like Schneider and Rodenstock - who quite frankly have their own problems...

    and even if they did - apart from dusty corners of enthusiast photographers like this forum - who would really care - how big are these new high end markets?

    Now look at some well known architectural photographers - many are shifting to modified small movement systems from Arca and Cambo etc - and attaching Sony A7R/R11 or Nikon or Canon DSLR bodies and using their own existing lenses or buying a set of Hartblei type lenses or even cheaper buying and using canon tilt shift lenses

    So my opinion coming from a user of Sinar/Leica/Alpa/Hasselblad/Phase One and Leaf /Son/Nikon/Canon/Rodenstock and Schneider as well as various tech camera systems from Sunar/Arca and now soon Cambo - is just what exactly is Leica going to bring to this market and why?

    - Pete
    I think you have completely misunderstood my expectations about Sinar's future Peter... I never said that Leica will make any digital backs for Sinar, or that Sinar will have new cameras with Roddies or Schneiders (they already did and continue to offer that)... I only said that I expect the new sensor to be used on Sinarbacks too, that Sinar is expected to also join the "small view camera" market (like Actus or Universalis) and that it would make sense if Leica would integrate another MF platform like Contax or Hasselblad H as to "bridge" (future) Sinar products with Leica and have their own platform for their MFDBs... In that case, I would expect the same MF platform lenses to work with full dedication on the competitive to Actus small view camera and also I would expect the same for the Sinarbacks... Lets not forget that Leica is a traditional mirrorless camera maker and thus, a "Cambo Actus like" small Sinar view camera, could be used with Leica Q or M instead of an MFDB... In fact, It seems to me that the Q mount has the size that is needed for a FF sensor.

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    It really would be interesting to know the reasoning behind the Sinar/Leica association.

    When you look at the S system, the only real missing element are T/S solutions, especially Macro and W/A where full movements are very helpful. How important that may be in the over-all scheme of things in today's marketplace is not really clear. However, Leica does dabble in low volume markets (albeit at even more lofty prices).

    It may be that there are proprietary precision technologies that Sinar had (or had under development) that we aren't privy to? That wouldn't necessarily require supporting the Sinar brand as much as utilizing many aspects under the Leica brand name … perhaps not unlike when Hasselblad and Imacon united, but the Hasselblad brand remained dominate.

    A T/S camera with a micro step Multi-Shot capability that you bolted a S camera to could be pretty interesting.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It really would be interesting to know the reasoning behind the Sinar/Leica association.

    When you look at the S system, the only real missing element are T/S solutions, especially Macro and W/A where full movements are very helpful. How important that may be in the over-all scheme of things in today's marketplace is not really clear. However, Leica does dabble in low volume markets (albeit at even more lofty prices).

    It may be that there are proprietary precision technologies that Sinar had (or had under development) that we aren't privy to? That wouldn't necessarily require supporting the Sinar brand as much as utilizing many aspects under the Leica brand name … perhaps not unlike when Hasselblad and Imacon united, but the Hasselblad brand remained dominate.

    A T/S camera with a micro step Multi-Shot capability that you bolted a S camera to could be pretty interesting.

    - Marc
    Hence... it is quite obvious that Leica has other plans for Sinar.....

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Another interesting review by a photographer who uses S006 too... http://www.jupitersnake.com/review/l...typ-007-s-007/

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    Re: Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

    Quote Originally Posted by dfarkas View Post
    I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.



    Sure, there are plenty of Sony-based DBs on the market, and Leica hasn't announced any plans for one at this point. But, with Leica's resources, it would be interesting to see how they might implement one. And, we don't know the full potential of the updated CMOSIS sensor in the S007 quite yet. Right now there are no camera profiles in LR for it. I saw a rather significant jump in IQ between versions of LR when I was testing the Q back in June, especially related to noise performance. Even still, the current S007 high ISO is nothing to sneeze at. Here is a test shot I did at ISO 6400, handheld at 1/30th of a sec, wide open on the 45mm.



    Here's a 100% crop.



    Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.


    To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?
    Focus looks spot on and the overall image is very clean with really nice color. The bokeh looks quite good as well. Thanks for posting!

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