Leica S (007) starts career at significantly lower price...

[Kolor-Pikker]

It still is the smallest (in size) than any other "MF" (meaning with sensor larger than 35mm film)... isn't it? And the lenses aren't bulkier than direct competition...

I can't see why anyone would have a problem with it's size, I even find the 645Z to be pretty good in the hand. The S lenses are solid chunks of metal, compared to your typical plastic Mamiya or Pentax lens, and can be forward-heavy, especially the zoom lens.

Do people actually pay money to read stuff like that??

I don't visit his site either nor do I intend to, but people decide how much and what to spend money on, and I don't think it's ever right to judge, especially since this is a forum where we're talking about cameras that cost more than most people would ever consider spending on a car. A year's subscription to his site amounts to visiting a nice local diner twice for two people or once with four of us, or maybe skip picking up breakfast as the deli for a week.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

It didn't take long.. diglloyd: Sony A7R II: the EVF (and why Canon and Nikon suck and are clueless about what is useful)

Ok... Now he lost every bit of credibility. I thought, some years ago, that this guy was serious but when you read gross things like this... dunno what to think about, just sad. I give all credits to ken Rockwell and absolutely NOT to Gordon Moore...

Canon and Nikon stay on OVF because they develop holographic prism projection (augmented reality), not because they are sleeping, and that take time.

It still is the smallest (in size) than any other "MF" (meaning with sensor larger than 35mm film)... isn't it? And the lenses aren't bulkier than direct competition...

Yes, it is. I always take reference in film. When you see the size of mamyia 7 lenses and especially the "sensor" behind those lenses (without vignetting... that mean it can go over 6x7), I think it is possible to miniaturize MF lenses. This have been done decades ago. Ok they are not that fast. But, based on Leica background of miniaturizing lenses, I thought it was possible for them to do it on the S line (given the fact that the sensor is all but not 6x7 !!).

Actually, reporters won't use a M8/M9/M240 like they used a M6... they won't use M at all because it became extremely fragile in comparison to film day. The only "rugged" digital leica solution (even called "leica pro format") is the S system. The S ain't a camera you will lung around every where, especially because it is not discrete (so, prone to attract thieves) or that light.

Leica might craft some f4 manual lenses, even pancakes, for those situations and maybe a SP, like the MP, without any sign of branding.

This is just a wish not a rant

 

[mjr]

Hulyss

I carry the S everywhere and always with at least 3 lenses, I don't find it too heavy at all, I actually really like the weight and size, it's easy to hold steady and is built so well that you can just use it everywhere. I took the kit to Mali and for 2 months followed troops training and deploying in really bad conditions, weight is just at the bottom of my thoughts when compared to the images it supplies. I carry it every day and everywhere I go!

We are all prepared to put up with different things but I can honestly say, weight and size just aren't an issue for me personally.

Mat

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Yes, hopefully there is a reward, the IQ. Weight isn't an issue for me either. Balance is. On the shoulder without lenses it's perfect. With the lens it is not (not like a 35mm with a 50). I was not comfortable. But that's just me. I would feel even less comfortable shooting with it in certain towns, even in my country, without military protection You see what I mean; it's something you'll have hard time dissimulating. Roughly, you do not go out with this kind of gear "like this !". It need some organisation.

Seen your assignment, nice work and glad you here in one piece

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Yes, it is. I always take reference in film. When you see the size of mamyia 7 lenses and especially the "sensor" behind those lenses (without vignetting... that mean it can go over 6x7), I think it is possible to miniaturize MF lenses. This have been done decades ago. Ok they are not that fast. But, based on Leica background of miniaturizing lenses, I thought it was possible for them to do it on the S line (given the fact that the sensor is all but not 6x7 !!).

This is a common topic, but the problem it seems here is one of incident light, as film didn't care what angle photons struck its surface, whereas sensors do.
Smearing, color shifts, cross-talk, moiré, all of these things stem from lenses that do not utilize a retrofocus design, the very aspect that leads SLR lenses to be large, bulky and expensive. Symmetrical lenses can be tiny, but they will wreak havok on many modern sensors, especially wide angles in close proximity to the sensor plane.
As a result, many cameras that do not even utilize a mirror still need lenses that project light perpendicular to the sensor plane, just to be able to record a usable image.

 

[Hulyss Bowman]

Ok so telecentric lenses are mandatory... Sensor technology is not, yet, at the top. Hope that will change within 5 years or a decade max ...

 

[dfarkas]

This is a common topic, but the problem it seems here is one of incident light, as film didn't care what angle photons struck its surface, whereas sensors do.
Smearing, color shifts, cross-talk, moiré, all of these things stem from lenses that do not utilize a retrofocus design, the very aspect that leads SLR lenses to be large, bulky and expensive. Symmetrical lenses can be tiny, but they will wreak havok on many modern sensors, especially wide angles in close proximity to the sensor plane.
As a result, many cameras that do not even utilize a mirror still need lenses that project light perpendicular to the sensor plane, just to be able to record a usable image.

Interestingly, the Leica/CMOSIS designed sensor in the Leica S007 is based off of the same architecture as that in the M240. Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market. While S lenses are retrofocus designs in order to accommodate the 54mm flange-to-sensor distance (mirror box and mount), theoretically this sensor could be used for non-retrofocus designs if ever a mirrorless camera were developed. This sensor would also mitigate the issues inherent with movements, for the same reasons. For more info:


http://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

Interestingly, the Leica/CMOSIS designed sensor in the Leica S007 is based off of the same architecture as that in the M240. Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market. While S lenses are retrofocus designs in order to accommodate the 54mm flange-to-sensor distance (mirror box and mount), theoretically this sensor could be used for non-retrofocus designs if ever a mirrorless camera were developed. This sensor would also mitigate the issues inherent with movements, for the same reasons.

Yes, angled micro lenses do help to some degree, adding BSI would too, and curved sensors even more so. The M240 still uses software correction for artifacts, and some people are claiming better results with the new A7RII than the M240 with M glass if you take software out of the equation.

I really want to see advancements in digital viewfinders that would do justice for a camera like this.

 

[dfarkas]

Yes, angled micro lenses do help to some degree, adding BSI would too, and curved sensors even more so. The M240 still uses software correction for artifacts, and some people are claiming better results with the new A7RII than the M240 with M glass if you take software out of the equation.

I really want to see advancements in digital viewfinders that would do justice for a camera like this.

The CMOSIS chip doesn't use angled microlenses. Leica previously employed offset microlenses on the M8 and M9. The CMOSIS chip changes the basic microlens shape from a flattened droplet to a conical peak. This catches the light at oblique angles and directs it down, without impeding light entering straight down. The Leica optical team provided the microlens design to CMOSIS for this chip.

I've already shot a lot with the S007 (in excess of 4000 shots), all without LR support. No camera profile, and more importantly no lens profiles. I'd say the lenses/sensor did an admirable job with regards to corner sharpness, vignetting, color consistency, etc. without lens corrections.

As far as viewfinders go, have you seen the one in the Q?

 

[dougpeterson]

Leica has solved the issue of incident angle by utilizing a newly designed conical microlens shape along with the thinnest CMOS sensor on the market.

Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.

 

[stephengilbert]

Doug,

You have to expect a bit of hyperbole when salesmen talk about their products.

Don't you think?

SG

 

[dfarkas]

Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.

You are correct that the S cannot be mounted like a MFDB to test the theory. But, with Leica's recent acquisition of Sinar, you never know what the future holds....

 

[Kolor-Pikker]

As far as viewfinders go, have you seen the one in the Q?

I don't bother looking at cameras that feature integrated fixed-focal lenses, I'm sure that there is a demographic to which this has appeal, but it's not even a consideration for me.

You are correct that the S cannot be mounted like a MFDB to test the theory. But, with Leica's recent acquisition of Sinar, you never know what the future holds....

If it came down to choosing a digital-back type camera, I'd sooner want something utilizing Sony sensor tech than CMOSIS, especially since the former is already available, and that we have an early idea of the fact that the S007 sensor isn't quite as good the Sony IMX161. Wouldn't want to test that theory anyway.

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

Yes, I think so. Is the type 007 using the CMOSIS sensor? I would say present state info is less clear. The 15 EV of DR would not be compatible with the CMOSIS design and it seems that the Leica Q uses a non Sony sensor of undisclosed design.

It may be possible that Sinar will release products based on the same sensor. It may also be possible that all horses left the stable.

Best regards
Erik

Something tells me that "solved" is likely a very strong word to use in this statement. I would be more inclined to think "improved" would be appropriate. However, given that the S2 cannot use any of the lenses, tech camera bodies, or workflows which would test this statement I guess it's a bit like arguing about angels on a pin.

 

[dfarkas]

I don't bother looking at cameras that feature integrated fixed-focal lenses, I'm sure that there is a demographic to which this has appeal, but it's not even a consideration for me.

I actually meant the question a bit more literally. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting you go for a Q, just asking if you had a chance to look at the viewfinder in person. Leica's EVF on the Q is the highest resolving in the industry at 3.7 million dots, and it looks incredible. This EVF might make its way into other future Leica products.

If it came down to choosing a digital-back type camera, I'd sooner want something utilizing Sony sensor tech than CMOSIS, especially since the former is already available, and that we have an early idea of the fact that the S007 sensor isn't quite as good the Sony IMX161. Wouldn't want to test that theory anyway.

Sure, there are plenty of Sony-based DBs on the market, and Leica hasn't announced any plans for one at this point. But, with Leica's resources, it would be interesting to see how they might implement one. And, we don't know the full potential of the updated CMOSIS sensor in the S007 quite yet. Right now there are no camera profiles in LR for it. I saw a rather significant jump in IQ between versions of LR when I was testing the Q back in June, especially related to noise performance. Even still, the current S007 high ISO is nothing to sneeze at. Here is a test shot I did at ISO 6400, handheld at 1/30th of a sec, wide open on the 45mm.

Here's a 100% crop.

Obviously, there is noise, but the pattern is tightly packed and monochromatic. There is still good detail, sharpness and color. Oh, and did I mention that it was handheld with no timer or mirror lockup? The mirror and shutter on the S007 is extremely soft and well damped.


To bring this full circle, if a possible future CMOSIS sensor-based DB does in fact negate the need for LCCs when using movements, wouldn't that be a step in the right direction?

 

[T.Dascalos]

Hi,

Yes, I think so. Is the type 007 using the CMOSIS sensor? I would say present state info is less clear. The 15 EV of DR would not be compatible with the CMOSIS design and it seems that the Leica Q uses a non Sony sensor of undisclosed design.

It may be possible that Sinar will release products based on the same sensor. It may also be possible that all horses left the stable.

Best regards
Erik

Erik you are a real surprise... You must be about the only person on earth that doesn't know that 007 is Cmos and also the only on earth that doesn't know that Leica CMos sensors are developed with CMOSIS and are made exclusive for Leica by CMOSIS... Why you say CMOSIS is incapable to make a sensor with 15 stops of DR capability? Did you ask them to make one of 15stops exclusive for you, payed them and they refused? ...it wouldn't surprise me if you did! :ROTFL: :toocool:

 

[ErikKaffehr]

Yes,

That was reported at Photokina. But the latest report I have seen said undisclosed vendor but not Sony. The Leica Q does not use the CMOSIS sensor. Just to make it clear, CMOSIS is chip design company, they don't make sensors. The Leica M (240) sensor is made at ST Microelectronics in Belgium. As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

So the question is justified.

Best regards
Erik

Ps. Michael Reichmann has previewed the S (typ 007) and he writes:

The sensor in the Leica S(007) is a new CMOS design. Leica has not mentioned who the manufacturer is, but it is definitely not Sony.

Erik you are a real surprise... You must be about the only person on earth that doesn't know that 007 is Cmos and also the only on earth that doesn't know that Leica CMos sensors are developed with CMOSIS and are made exclusive for Leica by CMOSIS... Why you say CMOSIS is incapable to make a sensor with 15 stops of DR capability? Did you ask them to make one of 15stops exclusive for you, payed them and they refused? ...it wouldn't surprise me if you did! :ROTFL: :toocool:

 

[jotloob]

Hulyss

I carry the S everywhere and always with at least 3 lenses, I don't find it too heavy at all, I actually really like the weight and size, it's easy to hold steady and is built so well that you can just use it everywhere. I took the kit to Mali and for 2 months followed troops training and deploying in really bad conditions, weight is just at the bottom of my thoughts when compared to the images it supplies. I carry it every day and everywhere I go!

We are all prepared to put up with different things but I can honestly say, weight and size just aren't an issue for me personally.

Mat

Mat

You will change your mind when you get older and then you will be longing for a camera with the 1/10 of the weight of your LEICA but the same product and image quality .

 

[T.Dascalos]

Yes,

As the original CMOSIS developed design had a DR of 12.3 EV it is not feasible that a new sensor would give 15EV, that would take an entirely new design.

So the question is justified.

Best regards
Erik

So... what you are saying is that the sensor is not a CMOSIS design because: 1. If it was, they wouldn't design a new sensor, but use an up-sized one from the M240... 2. CMOSIS doesn't design new sensors, only uses the ones before... right?

Well... I'm sure Aristoteles (the founder of the fundamentals of the logical theory) would consider such an assumption not supported by enough to be accepted as a conclusion....

A logical approach would be that the M240 FF sensor was a first attempt from Leica to use CMos sensors looking at the general path (and the results) that the competition achieves and now, they are after a new generation of new sensors (that would include a modern replacement of the M240 sensor) that would challenge the better of the sensors that the competition uses...

There are some hints to support this argument, here is a few (out of the many) one would consider as being common sense...

1. Is that being a leader for image quality, is what is expected from Leica as their tradition suggests.
2. Is that larger sensors can be cropped to smaller ones, but there was never a small sensor used in industry that was up sized into a larger one (for example, never an APS-c sensor was up-sized and used on a FF DSLR)...
3. Is that Leica is now a big group of companies that are all of leading technology in the imaging industry... Thus, It is necessary for them to have full control over the capabilities that the sensors that will be used in their designs will have...

Personally based on the above assumptions, I'm very sure that a version of the new sensor will be used on the M240 replacement and that the future Sinarbacks will use another version of the new generation of sensors...

I also expect an MF platform that will be a modular design with removable backs to be integrated into the Leica group of companies as to "bridge" Sinarbacks with the S-system... IMO, this platform will use lenses that (via an adapter) will be compatible with Leica S and the same lenses will be able to be used on a compact new view camera (much like the size of the Universalis or the Actus) that Sinar will make...

That new MF platform, I expect it to be an existing one rather than them investing on a new design... And (due to the "C" or "H" adapters), I expect it either to be a resurrection of the Contax 645 system (with some modern modifications on the body and some additional lenses) or end up Leica buying Hasselblad and use the H system.... It all depends on my opinion with what the status will be by the end of the year, where (under international law) Kyocera is excluded from financial rights out of the Contax system (ten years after they stopped production).

 

[mjr]

Mat

You will change your mind when you get older and then you will be longing for a camera with the 1/10 of the weight of your LEICA but the same product and image quality .

Well of course that is entirely correct although I have just turned 43, hardly over the hill but not a spring chicken either! I'm not a Leica guy, never had one before and have no interest in the history, it just happens that out of all the cameras that I tried, the one best suited to everything I wanted from a camera happened to be made by Leica, I honestly couldn't care less if it had been made by any other manufacturer, it is just of no importance to me. If there was a camera available now that gave me what I wanted at 1/10th of the weight or even better, cost, I'd have already bought it!

Here's to not getting old and knackered! Now where did I put my glasses?

Mat