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Thread: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

  1. #51
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    It's interesting to go down below his post and read comments. It's clear that no one really knows what is going on. Even some of the pretty well known names. But everyone sure has an opinion on the state of the MF market. Probably one of the best kept secrets of photography.

    Sadly I have to agree with Thom's predicdition of one the MF market continuing to be low volume high price. Current list price of just the XF body confirms this.

    Only Pentax seems aimed at a growth/volume bid i.e. New XF + $400= 645Z.



    Paul
    As far as I am aware, MFD has always been a low volume, high margins market. While that market has shrunk, so has the entire interchangeable camera market. Everyone including canon and nikon have been slashing sales and profit projections quarter after quarter for some time now. Almost every other week, you see some sort of deal for their lenses, which was unheard of a few years ago. So no, I don't see any sort of mass exodus happening in MF. Sure, we see posts about how someone left MF behind for sony or whatever, but for every one of those posts, there are a dozen blogposts online about how someone left canikon behind for M43 or something. And then those who left M43 behind for the next iphone. And so on.

    In every format, there are people who end up purchasing too much camera for their skill level and needs. At some point of time, they WILL downgrade and feel an incessant need to justify the downgrade. The thing is that MF is a significant investment, so MF downgraders tend to be louder than the rest. Apply some internet amplification and well... You know how it goes.

    What HAS happened though is that the MF market has seen significant consolidation and reduction in the number of players. This is no different than what happened with 135 format when digital became a thing. Everyone and their grandma started making DSLRs, but in the end, only two figured out how to make money from it. The rest got marginalized, folded or got assimilated into larger corporations. And that was the status quo until some of the formerly marginalized players figured out that the mirror can be taken out. Then began the next gold rush with everyone and their grandma making mirror less systems. A few years down the line, only one of them had figured out how to make money off it. The rest have again become marginalized, assimilated or have unverified rumors about leaving the market (cough Samsung, cough).

    Sounds familiar? It should, because that is exactly what is happening with MF. This is the natural order of progression. I hope at least 2 are left standing in the end though, because competition breeds innovation.

    The scavengers can set the knives aside. This baby ain't dead.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    The MF market and the DSLR market will continue to shrink (but for different reasons) as long as the policies of the makers don't change....

    The DSLR market will continue to shrink because the IQ improvement of later products is insignificant consider than the generation before it and additionally there is little of really helpful innovations applied that would give solutions to photographers... I believe that Sony's "α" mirrorless success in a shrinking market, is mainly because of offering solutions that Nikon or Canon couldn't since:

    A. The camera is the best to use instead of an MFDB as an MFDB with a view camera.
    B. The camera is compatible with the existing range of lenses one already owns.

    On the MF market however, further than the insignificant improvements in IQ than what was offered 10 years ago, there is the additional drawback that the major makers (P1 & HB-H) have done everything to their power to:

    A. Restrict the compatibility of their systems with the rest of the MF market.
    B. To "vanish" the backs they where taking as part exchange from the 2nd hand market, thus narrowing the "basis" of existing users and also keeping the prices high since there is a premium on all the backs they sell for the trades that some of the customers will do.
    C. But... (even more important than A&B above), is the fact that instead of directing their products towards adding abilities for tasks that one wouldn't be able to perform if using a DSLR instead, they ended up exactly to the opposite, which is "offer only larger DSLRs with little better performance"...

    Now, as long as they'll continue to "close the systems", offer cameras for "pixel peepers" instead of photographers, make backs that have worst IQ with view cameras than if one uses an older back and look for customers that "shoot sunsets" and are rich, they will find more and more photographers to use their (older) Canons and Nikons to shoot the landscapes and use a Sony α7 on an Actus with old H-V or RZ-67 (or other) glass and do all tasks they need at 95% of performance and only a fruction of the cost....

    P1 will never buy Hasselblad simply because... they have enough trouble of their own! Adding more, will double them! The only possible "savior" I can see for HB is Leica, where they can use the H5x platform as to use the Sinarbacks on and also the lens series on the "S" system via the S-adapter... but again they can do the same if they resurrect the Contax 645 since if they decide investing on Hasselblad, they 'll have to deal with two series of backs while they have one already with the Sinarbacks. I believe it will all clear out in a few months...

    One thing is for sure, hi-end photography is better run by people that have passion for photography instead of "golden boys" of marketing crap... Let's all hope that Hasselblad will end up directed by photographers then... In fact I believe they could make it them selves out of this if they could get some photographers to replace the "golden boys" that brought the company to the financial position it now is...
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post

    In every format, there are people who end up purchasing too much camera for their skill level and needs. At some point of time, they WILL downgrade and feel an incessant need to justify the downgrade. The thing is that MF is a significant investment, so MF downgraders tend to be louder than the rest. Apply some internet amplification and well... You know how it goes.
    you are really funny, what a twisted view ! i wonder where your expertise comes from, i own both a hasselblad DMF system as well as sony, cambo, zeiss & schneider and i'm very sure using the sony is not a downgrade when you talk to people in the industry it becomes very clear in what direction the pro market moves, ask someone at schneider kreuznach for example the lens manufacturer of your most loved toy. i would not be surprised if they leave the dmf lens market. for high end work light, composition and postproduction are the key skills you have to know not the camera and how to master it. the camera as center of great photography is such a amateurish view.....

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    @ T.Dascalos

    a perfect analyze of the situation !
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    @ T.Dascalos

    a perfect analyze of the situation !
    Ditto!

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    ummm....I'm a pro and we use MFD because its better in every step along the way when producing images for clients. Its that simple.
    We tried Sony and the new Canon chips for our product and art repro clients. Sorry but they just aren't as good, no matter what anyone says. Believe me, I wish they were, I could care less about brands and pee contests.
    MFD is more versatile, better color and res and IQ all the way down the line. Thats why any studio that is serious and charges big$$ uses it. It saves us money, thats why. Cameras and lenses don't cost as much as skilled post-proc talent and their time and their is at least 50% less time spent on MFD files than the smaller formats.
    On our art-repro (we aren't high fallutin enough yet to call it "cultural heritage" but I like that phrase) the numbers are even better for MFD.

    I know everyone here wants to believe that small format is every bit as good as MFD but it just isn't, not from a "professional" standpoint anyway.
    We have tested ad nauseum in house, as well as talked to our peers (other shooters in the $1M/yr gross range) and they are all reaching the same conclusions. They all shoot MFD not because its fancy or big or impressive...but because it delivers and saves money.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    I know everyone here wants to believe that small format is every bit as good as MFD but it just isn't, not from a "professional" standpoint anyway.
    We have tested ad nauseum in house, as well as talked to our peers (other shooters in the $1M/yr gross range) and they are all reaching the same conclusions. They all shoot MFD not because its fancy or big or impressive...but because it delivers and saves money.
    Tell that to Hasselblad not to mention Rolleiflex, Bronica, Sinar, and Leaf to name but a few who'd probably say differently judging by the state of their finances over history - "...because it delivers and saves money" is not universally accepted amongst most professionals. Studios with big budgets or in niche fields (repro) get to use the most expensive equipment because they can. Probably the type of work demands the extra 5-10% more clout MFD offers which their clients demand and ultimately but most importantly pay for. The remaining 80% of professional photographers are obviously not feeling restricted by other formats lack of quality and choose to vote with their wallet and why venture capital firms are now in control of all (?) MFD manufacturers.

    No one is saying there is not a place for MFD but the market at least amongst professional photographers must now be tiny.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post

    I know everyone here wants to believe that small format is every bit as good as MFD but it just isn't, not from a "professional" standpoint anyway..
    there must be a reason why some see big difference others can´t see. maybe self fulfilling prophecy plays a roll ?

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    there must be a reason why some see big difference others can´t see. maybe self fulfilling prophecy plays a roll ?
    I'm not so sure with the latest CMOS backs but there are differences between the formats. However, like any product at the top of its game you have to look closely for those difference (A/B comparison) to see MFD's supremacy and as most clients would never notice (or compare) why pay the price of entry? Will a bride see the extra 5% more detail in her wedding dress or a editor see a minuscule extra sharpness in the editorial shots for a lifestyle magazine? I think those questions have already been answered considering the MFD market today compared to 20 years ago.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    ummm....I'm a pro and we use MFD because its better in every step along the way when producing images for clients. Its that simple.
    Who said that it isn't better? ...what I said is that it's not better than older MF (especially with view cameras) and that it doesn't improve ones photography than if using a DSLR (or older MF)... There is a proof for that... Show me a picture that one couldn't do 10 years ago with the equipment that existed at those days and I'll "eat my tongue"... As simple as that!

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Tell that to Hasselblad not to mention Rolleiflex, Bronica, Sinar, and Leaf to name but a few who'd probably say differently judging by the state of their finances over history - "...because it delivers and saves money" is not universally accepted amongst most professionals. Studios with big budgets or in niche fields (repro) get to use the most expensive equipment because they can. Probably the type of work demands the extra 5-10% more clout MFD offers which their clients demand and ultimately but most importantly pay for. The remaining 80% of professional photographers are obviously not feeling restricted by other formats lack of quality and choose to vote with their wallet and why venture capital firms are now in control of all (?) MFD manufacturers.

    No one is saying there is not a place for MFD but the market at least amongst professional photographers must now be tiny.
    +1. Just to to add... I do art repro for a living, I used to use an Imacon 528c up until recently and replaced it with a Sinar 54H and Hasselblad CF-39MS (to have intermediate files, but to retain the self contained ability of the 528c too), ...replace them with what? ...and why? The only replacement that I can find is the Sinar eXact, but if I ever need (which I doubt) the 16x 196mp "true color" file why not just stitch two 88mp files at a ...still subject under controlled lighting?
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm not so sure with the latest CMOS backs but there are differences between the formats. However, like any product at the top of its game you have to look closely for those difference (A/B comparison) to see MFD's supremacy and as most clients would never notice (or compare) why pay the price of entry? Will a bride see the extra 5% more detail in her wedding dress or a editor see a minuscule extra sharpness in the editorial shots for a lifestyle magazine? I think those questions have already been answered considering the MFD market today compared to 20 years ago.
    No you don't (have to look closely to see the difference)... MF is better! But the question should rather be whether photo-graphy is improved or if the improvement is worth while... Another (very important) question is not if MF is better... but if the newer products are improving over the older products (which I'm sure they are not)... That is unless one considers as "improvement" the more pixels...

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    Who said that it isn't better? ...what I said is that it's not better than older MF (especially with view cameras) and that it doesn't improve ones photography than if using a DSLR (or older MF)... There is a proof for that... Show me a picture that one couldn't do 10 years ago with the equipment that existed at those days and I'll "eat my tongue"... As simple as that!
    I'm not saying you in particular. Obviously by your own admission you use medium format for the advantages it gives you a professional.
    In art repro, mfd saves even more time and money. You like Sinar, we like PhaseOne...whatever it's the same.
    I do not care if I can take better pictures or not than some other way or compared to some older method. I am a professional photographer, I photographed products and art regr I photograph products and art repro for serious money, I have a business to run. What I am saying is that medium format is more efficient and less expensive in the long run.

    I also do not care about the business finances and marketshare of corporations that produce cameras and camera related he I also do not care about the business finances and market share of corporations that produce cameras and camera related gear. Yes we professionals in the product And art repro business are hey small market compared to event Photography or perhaps landscape and sports etc. but that has always been the case

    edit: Holy cr__! just read my own post...sorry about the typos and such...just dictated to SIRI while I was waiting for a client. Still a few bugs in the system I guess
    Last edited by Egor; 9th October 2015 at 09:44.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    No you don't (have to look closely to see the difference)... MF is better!
    In particular areas of photography (as you work) that is correct but for the rest of us without such strict tolerances I'm unconvinced an untrained eye could tell the differences (or care) between formats when used in the hands of a skilled photographer.

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    But the question should rather be whether photo-graphy is improved or if the improvement is worth while... Another (very important) question is not if MF is better... but if the newer products are improving over the older products (which I'm sure they are not)... That is unless one considers as "improvement" the more pixels...
    Now I'm right with you on that one...... Over four generations of back, P65+ > IQ160 > IQ260 > IQ360 and have we really moved on in terms of IQ, the be all and end all of MFD???
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    ....."In art repro, mfd saves even more time and money. You like Sinar, we like PhaseOne...whatever it's the same."....
    What? ...NO it's not the same... for art repro, P1 profiles are totally inappropriate, they aim for "pleasing color" not for "accurate color"... Leaf is much better on this... But again, both don't use "true color" (tricolor) captures... and thus not nearly "up to the task" for the particular job... An IQ 380 would pale if compared for the job with a 22mp multishot old back... not that all single shot backs wouldn't... but P1 in particular is kind of "VW exaust"... Clearly they have in mind jobs that can be done with DSLRs, ...just shoot a macbeth card (or your color-checker passport) with a P1 back and a Sinarback (or Hasselblad/Imacon one) in single shot mode and open the files on a well calibrated monitor... you'll be surprised, ...I won't!
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    What? ...NO it's not the same... for art repro, P1 profiles are totally inappropriate, they aim for "pleasing color" not for "accurate color"...
    ...and it is almost impossible to build high quality icc profiles for capture one too. i never shot art work for business but i have a friend who is an artist so i have done a lot of repro work for him over the years paintings, pastels, drawings.... even with a profiled mf camera (hassy single shot ) i had to adjust every single image individually to mach the real color appearance so where is the mf advantage ?
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    What? ...NO it's not the same... for art repro, P1 profiles are totally inappropriate, they aim for "pleasing color" not for "accurate color"... Leaf is much better on this... But again, both don't use "true color" (tricolor) captures... and thus not nearly "up to the task" for the particular job... An IQ 380 would pale if compared for the job with a 22mp multishot old back... not that all single shot backs wouldn't... but P1 in particular is kind of "VW exaust"... Clearly they have in mind jobs that can be done with DSLRs, ...just shoot a macbeth card (or your color-checker passport) with a P1 back and a Sinarback (or Hasselblad/Imacon one) in single shot mode and open the files on a well calibrated monitor... you'll be surprised, ...I won't!
    sigh... not going to get into that with you
    We test these things regularly. We ARE able to achieve highly accurate color with PhaseOne gear and profiles.
    We do this every day, all day, for some of the most demanding clients on the planet.
    As soon as one of our clients with multimillion or billion dollar art collections tells us they are unsatisfied with our color accuracy...we will be sure to send them your way
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    I'm not so sure with the latest CMOS backs but there are differences between the formats. However, like any product at the top of its game you have to look closely for those difference (A/B comparison) to see MFD's supremacy and as most clients would never notice (or compare) why pay the price of entry? Will a bride see the extra 5% more detail in her wedding dress or a editor see a minuscule extra sharpness in the editorial shots for a lifestyle magazine? I think those questions have already been answered considering the MFD market today compared to 20 years ago.
    "Will a bride see" is hardly any measure of what is being discussed here. 35mm film DSLRs eclipsed the MF market long before 35mm DSLRs came on the scene … not due to discrimination on the part of the wedding/event cliental, but because the style of photography that clients were buying dramatically changed. I didn't even need a MF kit to get my candid wedding business up and running strong almost 20 years ago. Lifestyle work did something similar also …

    What also dramatically changed with a lot of commercial photography was the advent of multi-purposing an image to fit the proliferation of communication media. Client applications often range from web presentation, print ads, collateral POP materials and posters … all the way up to murals and trade show presentations where the viewer in a client's booth is only 2 feet away … or could be severely cropped by an art director to show a product detail in subsequent communications.

    The demand for MFD took a turn for the worse when the economic downturn hit most communication businesses hard, and studios closed in droves. Budgets became the arbitrator of taste, not taste itself. This created a rush to the bottom we are still feeling the effects of today.

    One aspect not discussed here much is working with lighting (a mainstay of commercial work) … what small format system features an array of modern leaf-shutter lenses across focal lengths? Phase does, Hasselblad does, Leica does.

    - Marc

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    ...and it is almost impossible to build high quality icc profiles for capture one too. i never shot art work for business but i have a friend who is an artist so i have done a lot of repro work for him over the years paintings, pastels, drawings.... even with a profiled mf camera (hassy single shot ) i had to adjust every single image individually to mach the real color appearance so where is the mf advantage ?
    That's right! One can't profile accurately color when it is processor depended... Single shot can only take pictures of art, for art reproduction there is only multishot (or scanning back)... but out of all single shot backs, P1 is the worst for the particular job... I do wonder, even if one is lucky and avoids artifacts, how does he copes with the different interpretation of color that each software update does with single shot? ...does he spends the hours that are needed to "adapt" the file to the new software update so that it is (to his opinion) "acceptable"? ...and how does he do this? Does he has the painting transfered back to this studio so that he tests with different materials and has multiple prints as to "correct" all differences that the monitor profiling may have? It's amazing what one may read in forums sometimes!

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Will a bride see" is hardly any measure of what is being discussed here. 35mm film DSLRs eclipsed the MF market long before 35mm DSLRs came on the scene … not due to discrimination on the part of the wedding/event cliental, but because the style of photography that clients were buying dramatically changed. I didn't even need a MF kit to get my candid wedding business up and running strong almost 20 years ago. Lifestyle work did something similar also …

    What also dramatically changed with a lot of commercial photography was the advent of multi-purposing an image to fit the proliferation of communication media. Client applications often range from web presentation, print ads, collateral POP materials and posters … all the way up to murals and trade show presentations where the viewer in a client's booth is only 2 feet away … or could be severely cropped by an art director to show a product detail in subsequent communications.

    The demand for MFD took a turn for the worse when the economic downturn hit most communication businesses hard, and studios closed in droves. Budgets became the arbitrator of taste, not taste itself. This created a rush to the bottom we are still feeling the effects of today.

    One aspect not discussed here much is working with lighting (a mainstay of commercial work) … what small format system features an array of modern leaf-shutter lenses across focal lengths? Phase does, Hasselblad does, Leica does.

    - Marc
    With sync speed up to 1/250. one hardly ever needs leaf shutter... it helps, but he doesn't need it.... As for weddings, the only reason for one to use an MF camera, is only to impress people and get more recommendations since "success" has nothing to do with the photographer's ability but only with "clever" public relations...

    EDIT: Half the reason why Leica S007 is going to be a major success among the (considered) "better" wedding pros... The other half is that they use Contax 645 with film for the job and hence they have the lenses ready... not to mention that they can sell all their DSLR equipment (which they use in parallel to their Contax & film) altogether and use the "S 007" instead, thus financing the change...

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    One aspect not discussed here much is working with lighting (a mainstay of commercial work) … what small format system features an array of modern leaf-shutter lenses across focal lengths? Phase does, Hasselblad does, Leica does.
    Never been unable to make a picture due to not owning a leaf shutter lens with 35mm or Phase One gear prior to thier SK lens release so hardly of massive importance to capturing a "better" or "impossible" image.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    What? ...NO it's not the same... for art repro, P1 profiles are totally inappropriate, they aim for "pleasing color" not for "accurate color"... Leaf is much better on this... But again, both don't use "true color" (tricolor) captures... and thus not nearly "up to the task" for the particular job... An IQ 380 would pale if compared for the job with a 22mp multishot old back... not that all single shot backs wouldn't... but P1 in particular is kind of "VW exaust"... Clearly they have in mind jobs that can be done with DSLRs, ...just shoot a macbeth card (or your color-checker passport) with a P1 back and a Sinarback (or Hasselblad/Imacon one) in single shot mode and open the files on a well calibrated monitor... you'll be surprised, ...I won't!
    The canned profiles in the general purpose commercial version of Capture One Pro are absolutely geared toward pleasing color (which is why so many people love Capture One Pro).

    But the Bespoke Cultural Heritage Profiles included in Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition are made only for the exclusive purpose of accurate color repro. No need for in-situ profiling (which is a huge PITA, very error prone, and produces fragile profiles). The profiles included in C1CH provide excellent accuracy (low Delta E measurements against objective targets) right out of the box.
    Capture One CH | DTDCH

    Our clients for art repro and other forms of Cultural Heritage imaging include universities like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Drexel, NYU etc, and museums/libraries such as Smithsonian, The Getty, Library of Congress, Folger Shakespeare Library, the New York Public Library. Do you think they have low standards?
    Our Clients | DTDCH

    Thankfully nobody needs to take my, or your, opinion. There are robust standards with objective criterium which can be evaluated. The two most common are FADGI and Metamoforze. FADGI and METAMORFOZE Image Performance Report | DTDCH

    Have you had the chance to evaluate Capture One CH and a modern Phase One back?
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    That's right! One can't profile accurately color when it is processor depended... Single shot can only take pictures of art, for art reproduction there is only multishot (or scanning back)... but out of all single shot backs, P1 is the worst for the particular job... I do wonder, even if one is lucky and avoids artifacts, how does he copes with the different interpretation of color that each software update does with single shot? ...does he spends the hours that are needed to "adapt" the file to the new software update so that it is (to his opinion) "acceptable"? ...and how does he do this? Does he has the painting transfered back to this studio so that he tests with different materials and has multiple prints as to "correct" all differences that the monitor profiling may have? It's amazing what one may read in forums sometimes!

    good points, we produce a large format high quality art calendar (offset) for my friend each year as a giveaway for collectors and friend and it takes more than 2 cycles of color adjustments to get an acceptable match on the press with many proofs between. i also have seen a lot of color cast problems with drawings on paper so a lcc shot with every image is mandatory. ....but maybe for others this common problems do not exist when they use this magic cameras.....

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    The canned profiles in the general purpose commercial version of Capture One Pro are absolutely geared toward pleasing color (which is why so many people love Capture One Pro).

    But the Bespoke Cultural Heritage Profiles included in Capture One Cultural Heritage Edition are made only for the exclusive purpose of accurate color repro. No need for in-situ profiling (which is a huge PITA, very error prone, and produces fragile profiles). The profiles included in C1CH provide excellent accuracy (low Delta E measurements against objective targets) right out of the box.
    Capture One CH | DTDCH

    Our clients for art repro and other forms of Cultural Heritage imaging include universities like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, Princeton, Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Drexel, NYU etc, and museums/libraries such as Smithsonian, The Getty, Library of Congress, Folger Shakespeare Library, the New York Public Library. Do you think they have low standards?
    Our Clients | DTDCH

    Thankfully nobody needs to take my, or your, opinion. There are robust standards with objective criterium which can be evaluated. The two most common are FADGI and Metamoforze. FADGI and METAMORFOZE Image Performance Report | DTDCH

    Have you had the chance to evaluate Capture One CH and a modern Phase One back?


    ...so and how much does it cost extra to simply get an accurate color profile ?

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    "Will a bride see" is hardly any measure of what is being discussed here.
    Many pros stopped buying MFD because their customers were unable to see or want to pay for that extra magical piece of IQ from MFD and the whole point why we are discussing Hasselblad and others being owned today by money men. Pro's didn't stop buying MFD because it was rubbish, just the difference is not justified financially.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Have you had the chance to evaluate Capture One CH and a modern Phase One back?
    Doug, please don't post anymore "list of customers" as I'm sure they don't use your stuff only... I'm pretty sure that they also have stuff from the competition among the equipment they use... It's always (IMO) best for a business to care why some other (even more important) possible clients are missing from that list....

    The latest I've ever tested from P1 was a P65+ on a Mamiya camera. A couple of years later, Yair massaged me "if I want to try a Leaf Aptus 12" as he was visiting my country and he could have one for Contax mount with him, for me to try... I replied to him that "I will be glad to try it", but... "It will have to be against my (at the days) 528c in multishot mode as to compare" and only if it proves better I would buy it... A week before Yair arrived, Mrs Kounio (your representative in my country) called me just to say that I would have to go in her premises and try the back in "general" shooting without being able to compare it with my 528c... Of course my reply was that "I'm not interested"... A year and a half later, I had the chance to try another Aptus 12 (on a P1 camera this time) borrowed from the man that purchased it, after the original owner past away at a very young age (Yair knows the story and the man that past away...)... ...and then I realized why Yair refused the comparison... Mind you that the pro photographer that past away, bought the Aptus only for single shot work... alongside it he also bought a 75H for repro work...

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by gazwas View Post
    Never been unable to make a picture due to not owning a leaf shutter lens with 35mm or Phase One gear prior to thier SK lens release so hardly of massive importance to capturing a "better" or "impossible" image.
    Perhaps a bit a dismissive tone there my friend? It seems your experiences are to be taken as the end-all in photographic knowledge?

    I guess all I can say is that you and I must have different experiences solving some difficult photographic situations when they present themselves.

    Personally, I've always found it much easier to balance subject to background lighting, or to control movement, when offered sync speeds above 1/250, (or in the case of 645 MF: 1/125). I've found 1/800, 1/1000 or 1/1600 sync VERY useful in making better images for my clients.

    I was going to cite a number of situations where a high sync did solve a problem better than a more limited sync speed could have, but I fear It'd just lead to a peeing contest, which I have no interest in engaging with you.


    Suffice it to say … HSS isn't the end-all reason for MF, just another difference that one can functionally and creatively use if it fits their needs … which in my case, I wouldn't be without.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It seems your experiences are to be taken as the end-all in photographic knowledge?
    I find your comment quite insulting and don't appreciate you turning my comments into something personal.

    With regards to my comment, leaf lenses for Phase is a relatively recent addition to the system and we shot for years with a sync speed of 1/125sec without too much problem and why I said its not a requirement for better pictures.

    This topic is a open discussion why MFD could have got to the position it currently faces and not a comparison of spec sheets. If leaf lenses are so important to the survival of MFD, why are more people not buying them? Sorry if my reply causes you offence but I just don't think your comment is particularly relevant to the discussion and why I pointed this out.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    You know, after thinking about it, There is one aspect of using certain tools that goes missing in overly rational, "justify this or that", threads like this. Beyond whether a client can tell the difference. Beyond the state of the industry as a whole. Beyond pure financial considerations (with-in reason). Beyond all the PC comments.

    It is just the simple love of using certain tools. Some sense of personal satisfaction that defies pure rationality. Certain tools invite use, make it a pleasure, have a feeling in hand, can be amazing, dare I say it even inspire involvement"! and become an extension of you IF you take the time to master it.

    Personally, I loved the V system just for the mechanical/tactile sense of using one … what a rush every time I wound one onto the next frame. I came to love using the H system for it's incredibly well thought out controls … which, once mastered, allowed me to play the camera like a musical instrument without taking my eye from that huge bright viewfinder. So much so that I owned 9 itterations of the H before retiring: models ranging from a H2D/22 thru a H4D/60. Then there was the jaw dropping wizardry of watching a multi-shot back do its' thing … which still amazes me to this day. Absolutely fascinating. Not to mention that art buyers, production managers and retouchers LOVED the results from these cameras.

    I've been building that sort of relationship with my current kit of the past 4 or 5 years … the Leica S system. Controls designed to make tasks simple and fast and thus disappear from mind. Versatility at a whim. Not to mention pure eye candy just to look at!

    I admit not having an affinity for cameras like the Sony A series which remain a foreign experience despite using them for many years now. I do not like them. They may becoming today's work horses, but I never pictured myself as a plow jockey whipping a work-horse into submission.

    Frankly, I need to like my tools not just tolerate them. My lack of rationality about this subject knows no bounds … when I repeatedly fail at some creative task I DO blame the tool and I get rid of it immediately. When I repeatedly succeed I give myself all the credit … but secretly do acknowledge that I do like the tools that I used, and designate them as keepers.

    I wish Hasselblad well. I hope Phase One continues on in good health. I dearly hope Leica continues improving the S kit. That Pentax keeps at it. Because these tools can be a joy to work with … if given a chance.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Crazy money.

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    ...so and how much does it cost extra to simply get an accurate color profile ?
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    You know, after thinking about it......

    It is just the simple love of using certain tools. Some sense of personal satisfaction that defies pure rationality. Certain tools invite use, make it a pleasure, have a feeling in hand, can be amazing, dare I say it even inspire involvement"! and become an extension of you IF you take the time to master it.

    I wish Hasselblad well. I hope Phase One continues on in good health. I dearly hope Leica continues improving the S kit. That Pentax keeps at it. Because these tools can be a joy to work with … if given a chance.

    - Marc
    I'm with Marc on this one - there are just some tool you bond with, others you don't.

    I loved the 503, the Xpan, struggled with the H and gave it up, loved the Nikon D700, initially struggled with the new Fuji X series....

    Personally, I hope we see a range of new gear that will inspire us to create new images not possible before (or at least not as easily before) in formats that suit the needs best.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Crazy money.

    $5999 for canned profiles and some tools which are standard in cheap scanning software ? they can only hope that their customers never learn about color-mangment. but it is interesting to see how they turn the shortcomings of capture one into a new product with premium price tag.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Crazy money.
    ...less than the cost of a single art capture for some
    And obtw, art repro isn't the most demanding for color accuracy, that would be the textile industry

    Sorry, Doug is correct, the rest of this is some hypothetical peeing contest I no longer have time for.
    I hadn't posted in a while and saw this thread and thought I'd offer my insight from the trenches. I realize why I don't post much anymore
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    ...less than the cost of a single art capture for some.
    So maybe there lies the problem and if we all earned that per capture the MFD indusrty would be booming. Sadly, as that's not the general norm appreciating the benefits and affordability are at opposite poles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    I hadn't posted in a while and saw this thread and thought I'd offer my insight from the trenches. I realize why I don't post much anymore
    Don't take it personally, its just a pool of opinionated photographers, (all photographers are I'm sure) which on this accession you had less on your side. A topic will no doubt crop up again in a few weeks/months along the same lines and all could change.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Hypothetical peeing contest? Not on my end, I can assure you of that. Unlike some here, I actually own and use one of these products on a daily basis and wouldn't dream of using anything else. I too am in "the trenches", as you put it, shooting long term documentary, cultural and social heritage projects professionally. I don't require the kind of 100% accurate colour that some might, but then again I'm very happy with the colour I get from C1 straight out the box by choosing specific Leaf profiles and tone curve options. C1 is free to use for those with a Phase / Leaf back, and for that I'm very happy.

    With regards to the Cultural Heritage edition, I have no idea what it offers over and above the standard edition beyond different profiles and tone curves. If Phase want to charge $6K for the package, good luck to them. I really don't care, but it illustrates a point that has been made a few times in this thread already: No way how you slice it, it's a very expensive game to buy into and if companies like Hasselblad are to survive and regain market share some creative thinking is needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    ...less than the cost of a single art capture for some
    And obtw, art repro isn't the most demanding for color accuracy, that would be the textile industry

    Sorry, Doug is correct, the rest of this is some hypothetical peeing contest I no longer have time for.
    I hadn't posted in a while and saw this thread and thought I'd offer my insight from the trenches. I realize why I don't post much anymore
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Wow, what a battle of britches folks...gave me a headache to read it.

    For me personally, I am still working on getting a 50c back. It makes complete sense for me in my niche workflow, preferring film in my Hasselblads for fine art and would rather not carry around a D810 to get the digital shots while doing so. I used it for 10 days and loved the way everything worked.

    Hope Hasselblad sticks around.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I don't comment very often but I do follow you guys a lot. I very much enjoyed what Marc wrote.

    Hasselblad began opening their books to other companies over 2-years ago. H sales were no longer supporting the company. Management viewed the Lunacy/Solace cameras as the savior to the H line. They knew they would fail but promised everyone success. I can't say any more. Be well everyone.

    Kind regards,
    Derek Jecxz
    derek jecxz {photographer}

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    It is just the simple love of using certain tools. Some sense of personal satisfaction that defies pure rationality. Certain tools invite use, make it a pleasure, have a feeling in hand, can be amazing, dare I say it even inspire involvement"! and become an extension of you IF you take the time to master it...

    I came to love using the H system for it's incredibly well thought out controls … which, once mastered, allowed me to play the camera like a musical instrument without taking my eye from that huge bright viewfinder...

    Frankly, I need to like my tools not just tolerate them.
    Last edited by jecxz; 13th October 2015 at 05:37. Reason: Grammar

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I don't comment here much either, so just a few words:
    - I sincerely hope that Hasselblad will NOT be acquired by either Phase One or Leica
    as this reduces the number of options no matter how big or small the market for MFD is.

    - I'm a happy HB H3D user for many years, no Nikon, Sony, Canon or whatever 35mm
    or mirrorless will change that. The IQ is outstanding and operating the H has this
    zen factor no 35mm will ever give me. And well, if i decide to expose at 1/800
    with flash to put a spot on something while the surrounding remains dark i just do it.

    - I had a good conversation with my dealer (who sells all other kind of MF stuff) this week
    and he was more confident again that HB is able to make it and turn around.
    So my next money will hopefully go into a H6D to replace the H3D.

    Anyway, i'm with Marc here, the fun and like factor must not be underestimated.

    Regards,
    Ralf.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    My dealer has no idea what I he future is for Hasselblad.
    My hope is that they stay in business to provide maintenance for the units in the field
    Stanley

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Since we discussed the multishot backs in this thread, how realistic is the rumor about a new Pentax 645 MS. My friend returned from a studio workshop and the instructor who uses the 645Z in studio said that Pentax would be introducing a multi shot technology, based on their K3-2. I doubt that it's easy to do with the Sony sensor.

    P.S.

    I still use my Sinarback 54H and plan to upgrade next year.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Yevgeny NP View Post
    Since we discussed the multishot backs in this thread, how realistic is the rumor about a new Pentax 645 MS. My friend returned from a studio workshop and the instructor who uses the 645Z in studio said that Pentax would be introducing a multi shot technology, based on their K3-2. I doubt that it's easy to do with the Sony sensor.

    P.S.

    I still use my Sinarback 54H and plan to upgrade next year.
    Hi Yevgeny... I believe the 645Z will have an MS version soon... It seems strange for the K3-ii to offer one and the "Z" not... As of the Sony sensor and its compatibility with MS, the later 50MS & 200MS from Hasselblad are using the very same sensor...
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    T.,
    Thank you. Makes sense for Pentax to get the MS.

    Turbulent times, it's a very difficult decision to upgrade to anything in the MFD sector nowadays. I just hope Hasselbad will survive as an independent brand.

    Although, I cannot say that my Sinar 54H FW is too behind the competition after so many years.

    Yevgeny
    Last edited by Yevgeny NP; 14th October 2015 at 14:22.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    And now Sony releases the camera that everyone has asked for with a Hasselblad label for several years.

    http://www.sony.com/electronics/cybe...ras/dsc-rx1rm2

    If that would have been the Lunar with a bit of blimblim-deco, lets say with a pricetag of 5-6k$
    maybe exclusive for 1 year with the bladlogo, many things today would have been different.....

    Too late.

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I could care less what Sony or anyone else does, I ordered my 50c back today.

    Every ski season I have to decide between taking a Nikon DSLR up on the hill with at best a Mamiya 6 loaded with black and white in tow for fine art or just the Hasselblad system to shoot an annual advertising contract. Now I can knock off the BS and just take a Hasselblad 501CM, 2-3 lenses, 2 film backs and the 50c and get cranking.

    50MP will be plenty well into the future, especially stitched....this is going to be a blast.

    Long live Hasselblad!
    Last edited by Ai_Print; 14th October 2015 at 21:43.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And now Sony releases the camera that everyone has asked for with a Hasselblad label for several years.
    $3300?
    La gallina vecchia fa buon brodo
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    And now Sony releases the camera that everyone has asked for with a Hasselblad label for several years.

    http://www.sony.com/electronics/cybe...ras/dsc-rx1rm2

    If that would have been the Lunar with a bit of blimblim-deco, lets say with a pricetag of 5-6k$
    maybe exclusive for 1 year with the bladlogo, many things today would have been different.....

    Too late.

    Regards
    Stefan
    I am sorry, who is this everyone? No one I know could care less for any hassellblad branded cameras that are not medium format. If anything, the new Sony is catering to the Leica market, just like the RX1 did before it.

    It's a niche solution for a niche market and already has a hilarious price tag before adding the Hasselblad tax. Blad should stay away from such distractions.
    My little corner on the internet.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    It's a niche solution for a niche market and already has a hilarious price tag before adding the Hasselblad tax.
    so what is ok and normal for the innovation free mf market is total wrong when it comes the 35mm ?

    fact is that this camera offers a feature most photographers would appreciate to have whether it is mf or 35mm - a variable low pass filter ! this camera shows in an impressive way
    how far left behind phase and hasselblad already are.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    so what is ok and normal for the innovation free mf market is total wrong when it comes the 35mm ?

    fact is that this camera offers a feature most photographers would appreciate to have whether it is mf or 35mm - a variable low pass filter ! this camera shows in an impressive way
    how far left behind phase and hasselblad already are.
    with a fixed 35mm lens?
    Put that into an A7R2 and will agree with you.

    Edit: Personally, I do not care for an AA filter and have not missed one in any of the cameras I have owned that didn't have one. But YMMV.

  49. #99
    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Do some of you really have such a short memory ?
    What about the X-Pan ....... I would love to have a digital X-Pan....just hit search for the forum here.
    I agree that exchangable lenses would be even better, but this little sucker would have been lightyears better for a lunar
    launch than the even then outdated Nex7.

    I also think the X-Pan was one of the finest pieces of gear that Hasselblad ever sold (even if Fuji built it).

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Personally I'd rather have IBIS in the new RX-1 than the variable low pass filter. Software is so good these days except with blurry images due to non-IBIS
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