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Thread: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    New story on Photo Rumors......???

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    So that would only leave Phase One and Leica? Oh goody, even less competition.

    When Phase One got short of cash they opted to go down the route of inviting a private equity firm to invest - maybe Hasselblad should try the same thing. Hang on a second, they already did - with Ventizz - doh! - let's hope things work out better for P1 than they (apparently) have for HB.

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    Senior Member stngoldberg's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    My two cents...the Sony chips have changed everything...while I love the experience of composing through the huge, bright Hasselblad viewfinder, I have difficulty seeing the difference between the images from my H5D50 and my Nikon D810 when viewed on my computer.....especially when those images are printed
    My friends who are very qualified photgraphers and own the new Sony 7R11 and the lenses that are available for that camera are showing me images and that are absolutely first rate
    It's hard to believe that any medium format product is worth many multiples of a Nikon or Sony with the current high megapixel Sony chips!
    Stanley-a proud Hasselblad owner
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    My two cents...the Sony chips have changed everything...while I love the experience of composing through the huge, bright Hasselblad viewfinder, I have difficulty seeing the difference between the images from my H5D50 and my Nikon D810 when viewed on my computer.....especially when those images are printed
    My friends who are very qualified photgraphers and own the new Sony 7R11 and the lenses that are available for that camera are showing me images and that are absolutely first rate
    It's hard to believe that any medium format product is worth many multiples of a Nikon or Sony with the current high megapixel Sony chips!
    Stanley-a proud Hasselblad owner
    +1 to that. The D810, and particularly the image quality at ISO 64/32, removed all sensible arguments I've been able to dig up to buy a digital MF camera. I'd love to have a CFV 50c at the current discounted price for my GX680, but I keep coming back to the same questions: What photos would I take with it that I can't take with the Nikon? Would I see a gain in image quality?

    For the discounted cost of the back, $10,000, I can buy any lens I would need, including T/S and exotic Zeiss glass. What remains is the giant viewfinder, but that works fine when I shoot film also
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    " … and some information suggesting that it is unlikely Hasselblad will see 2016 as a stand-alone company because they are out of cash. They are desperately seeking for investors and one of the likely outcome is to be purchased by Phase One."

    I wonder what "some information" means? Also, why would Phase One purchasing Hasselblad be a "likely outcome"? I guess you can speculate about anything you wish in the guise of a "rumor".

    MFD verses high resolution 35mm arguments aside, , I think Hasselblad squandered a few choice advantages and opportunities to capture more of the MFD market even if it was shrinking (marketing 101: when your market stops growing, then grow your share).

    H had the body advantage for quite some time. They never capitalized on it.

    They under marketed True Focus/Absolute Position Lock (APL) … True Focus is the technology that automatically micro-adjusts AF when stopping down to account for any focus shift for each HC/HCD lens, where TF/APL is the tech that allows off-center focus, repositioning.

    Hasselblad never brought out a body with dual shutters (Like Leica S), which was a major missed opportunity IMO. The advantage H had was that ALL their lenses were already leaf shutter, and with a dual shutter body all of them then could have been used in FP shutter mode to 1/4000. A Hasselblad owner would not have needed to buy new lenses to use LS or FP mode. Had they introduced dual shutter in the H5, I probably never would have completely switched to the Leica S. No 35mm or even the S could compete with my H4D/60 in terms of IQ … on screen, or in print.

    Hassey never really solved the digital back power issue to allow use of H backs on a tech camera … which is a key market for MFD. My H4D/60 back was supposed to take a battery, but that was so slow coming that I was out of the system before it was possible.

    Instead, they poured cash into the Sony fiasco, and treated the customer base like rubes at a carnival … looking to bilk them of money with pretentious fluff that only Leica has proven capable of foisting off on the faithful (at least their's is eye candy applied to an already prestigious piece of gear rather than a Fiat with a Bentley grill.

    - Marc
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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    A big ditto to Stan and Jorgen...... as much as I would love a CFV-50c ..... just to have the thrill of using my old 503.... I just cannot justify 10K.

    4-5K would be an entirely different matter.

    Marc - I agree with your comments - I like the issue on market share.

    Problem is that HB became very arrogant..... but as we know - pride comes before the fall!

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Fortumers are hard crowd to please - the honeymoon of $10K CVF50C didn't even last more than 3 days

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    Fortumers are hard crowd to please - the honeymoon of $10K CVF50C didn't even last more than 3 days
    Ha ha... I was very close to posting enthusiastically on the discounted CVF-50c thread, but maths got the better of me. I checked How many Zeiss Milvus lenses I could buy for the price of that back. The answer is: All six of them.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I do agree fully on the dual shutter story / dilemma of Hasselblad! Before I finally owned my H3D a few years ago, I was discussing multiple times with them why they should introduce a focal plane shutter and they were just so ignorant about that. Albeit they had FP shutter already decades ago in their 2000 film cameras.

    Today the market for MFD is shrinking every year and a company needs to have a full modern and aggressive offering (like Phase) in order to survive, as cameras like the D810, A7rII and for sure also the upcoming D850/D900 are just so excellent with high res FF, plus they do offer the benefits of large lens systems and most of them for a much more attractive price than a MF lens.

    I only do not get the point why Phase would want to buy Hasselblad, as at the current state of their product development I absolutely do not see any synergies through a Hasselblad acquisition.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    ...interesting, did anybody else here the rumor that fuji will introduce a mf camera in the next 2 years ? a fuji takeover would make perfect sense. maybe i have to keep my hasselbland lenses for a mirrorless fuji mf camera

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    Subscriber Member Jorgen Udvang's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    ...interesting, did anybody else here the rumor that fuji will introduce a mf camera in the next 2 years ? a fuji takeover would make perfect sense. maybe i have to keep my hasselbland lenses for a mirrorless fuji mf camera
    Fuji is the only potential buyer who could possibly make a profit acquiring Hasselblad. They already produce the lenses and they know the body inside out. It's difficult to see any other reason for Phase to buy it other than getting rid of a competitor.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Why wouldn't Leica buy them? They've already bought Sinar and I imagine would like to produce a body to fit Sinar backs on; have reverse engineered an H Lens adaptor that even manages to maintain autofocus with the HTS (which Hasselblad couldn't even manage themselves) and would most likely benifit from aquiring other technology, including the flextight scanner range. Besides, I'd imagine Leica are worth more than Phase on paper? At least Leica have a respect for the heritage of the respective brands.

    Failing all that, I hope Hasselblad survive. Competition is good for us all, especially for price.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    maybe capture one will finally convert hasseblad raw files! there has been some sort of feud there...
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    my 2p worth on this (based on no facts or real inside information whatsoever) is that a Phase purchase of HBlad would probably not be a be good thing for current users or the brand, i guess they would grab the tru-focus patent for their own use. Fuji on the other hand would be a better fit as a way back into MF and a compliment to their existing camera business. they obviously already have close links with HBlad.

    most photographers i know would love an H5 with a fully integrated back that tethered to capture 1 without the phase pricing and mediocre body offerings. i doubt that would ever happen.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Ha ha... I was very close to posting enthusiastically on the discounted CVF-50c thread, but maths got the better of me. I checked How many Zeiss Milvus lenses I could buy for the price of that back. The answer is: All six of them.
    That is exactly the point. Even if the CFV50 would sell for 5000$, the lenses and everything elese still costs multiple thousands.
    People need to look at the overall system price and the net output and compare. There is still some advantage to 80 Mpix and maybe the BW Achromatic 60 Mpix, as well as 200bit Multishot systems for Repro purposes.

    But the whole rest of the world can safely settle with the actual 5Dsr or an A7RII.
    Used with the right glass, the results are stunning, not to say better than MF, if AF and stabilization is needed.

    24x36 is the new Medium Format.

    And I am not the only one who has this opinion

    Zeiss Vicepresident: ” Full Frame is the future” and “Sony was surprised by E-mount success” | sonyalpharumors

    Greetings from Germany
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I am not so sure FF is the new MF. I think (but I may be completely wrong) that Sony made their 50Mpix MF sensor to test the waters. I think the test was positive, and there will be more MF sensors coming from Sony.

    I suspect (again, could be wrong) that sensor size may become a significant marketing argument to sell "serious" cameras. As camera-phone with small sensors become more and more popular (but can they be more popular than now) and FF cameras are getting "too cheap" to make good money out of them, selling an expensive camera with good margins becomes more and more difficult. And the only "easy" argument why camera A costing 5k Euros is better than camera B costing 1k Euros will be "because it has a bigger sensor".

    But again, maybe MF is dying and FF will remain the only "reasonable" alternative.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Hi Stefan,

    My 645 DF+, Credo 40 and a handful of old Mamiya lenses would cost about the same as a D810/ 5DSR and a handful of Otii. Cheaper if you go for used or refurb.

    Files still blow everything from 135 away, at least for the things I shoot.

    Sure, this pony only knows one trick, but it's a wonderful trick.

    I wish the rest of the world all the best settling down with "The new medium format". I am quite happy with the old one.

    Viele Grüße,
    Sandeep
    My little corner on the internet.
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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Sandeep

    while that is true for used stuff, it doesn´t keep companies like Hasselblad alive.

    I am talking about the new sales they need to generate their turnarounds and proceed with
    R&D to stay competitive.

    I know how you feel about the systems you use, but this is like all the older stuff, marked with a timestamp.
    Sooner or later, you may drop something, a board in the backs may fail,one part of the chain breaks down.

    And then ? Would you really invest another 50K $ to get into MF ? Or would you have a severe talk with your bank,
    your customers and find 95% would work exactly the same as before for maybe 20% of the costs ?

    @ miska
    Sony is a consumer electronics company. They sell volume and they build stuff according to their mindset -
    which I love as it changed photography right now - a lot of fresh air coming from the electronics market.

    The Chip Fab of Sony is not "Sony". I believe they have barely gotten the costs for the devellopment of this 50 Mpix chip
    (which is probably 15-20 Mil.$) divide that by roughly 25000 pieces until today (so maybe 12-15k chips made /year)
    and you will see how tight the financial frame is.

    Unless all other makers who have signed this contract Blad/Pentax and Phase/MamLeaf won´t
    ALL order on another bigger CMOS it will not happen. I doubt if Phase can fullfill such a volume order to Sony alone.
    If Hasselblad dies, Pentax is the biggest customer and they probably have not much interest in a 100 Mpix or more chip for their
    next - let´s call it 645 Omega body. Maybe 60 Mpix but I really doubt it. Ricoh sells primarily to wedding and People photographers in Asia. That´s what this camera is made for. And it works very well - if these numbers are right with 17000 units sold last year since the new version came out.

    And again: this is a niche market now, replacing the large format. If the former MF Makers can survive with these niche numbers ?
    I wish them luck.
    So I keep saying: 24x36 digital is the new "Medium Format" market segment.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Stefan,

    I invested nothing close to 50k in MF. The same back I bought can be had for 4 digits NEW now and the low end of MF will continue to be offered around that price range (Or even lower, hopefully).

    If I drop or break mine, I will first try to repair it (After calling my insurance woman, first ). At least for Phase/ Leaf, the timeframe between product discontinuation and service discontinuation is quite long, so I am not worried too much that it will not be repairable.

    Failing that, either go to the used market or buy another low end MF back. However, most owners are lucky in that regard and I know people who still shoot with Lightphase or Volare backs in the studio, still going strong.

    I can't speak for everyone here, but I shoot for personal pleasure, so providing work for customers at 20% of the cost etc. Is not a factor for me. Maximum smiles/hour while I create my art however is.

    Sandeep
    Last edited by synn; 6th October 2015 at 07:38.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    So that would only leave Phase One and Leica? Oh goody, even less competition.

    When Phase One got short of cash they opted to go down the route of inviting a private equity firm to invest - maybe Hasselblad should try the same thing. Hang on a second, they already did - with Ventizz - doh! - let's hope things work out better for P1 than they (apparently) have for HB.
    You forgot Pentax too which also uses the Sony 51MP sensor.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    Stefan,

    I invested nothing close to 50k in MF. The same back I bought can be had for 4 digits NEW now and the low end of MF will continue to be offered around that price range (Or even lower, hopefully).

    If I drop or break mine, I will first try to repair it (After calling my insurance woman, first ). At least for Phase/ Leaf, the timeframe between product discontinuation and service discontinuation is quite long, so I am not worried too much that it will not be repairable.

    Failing that, either go to the used market or buy another low end MF back. However, most owners are lucky in that regard and I know people who still shoot with Lightphase or Volare backs in the studio, still going strong.

    I can't speak for everyone here, but I shoot for personal pleasure, so providing work for customers at 20% of the cost etc. Is not a factor for me. Maximum smiles/hour while I create my art however is.

    Sandeep
    Actually you have answered the thread question perfectly with your answer to my answer.

    This is the reason, why the MF market is where it is.
    Nobody (or at least much fewer people) can make a living from this.

    I mean Hasselblad did understand this, but their Lunar&Stellar etc. approach was just nonsense.

    Sad.

    Regards
    Stefan
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    I am not sure that you got the meaning of what I said.

    I shoot for myself. I don't need to make a living out of photography. Doesn't mean that there aren't people who make their living shooting MF. I know several and they have their valid reasons to stay with MF.

    In any case, why would a manufacturer care if their customer is a professional or an enthusiast? A unit sold is a unit sold. Phase knows how to market themselves to photographers, pro and enthusiast alike, Hasselblad forgot how to do it and started chasing after Hermes and Bulgari instead. Hopefully they will reverse that trend under new ownership.

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Stefan is correct - a few hobbyists cannot keep a large R&D enterprise going.

    In its heyday, every pro photographer worth his salt had MF gear...HB, Mamiya or Pentax etc.

    Today, the scene is very different - just take a look at pro photographer blogs - and see how few still use MF or MFD.

    In essence MF is now going the same route as large format.....once the dedicated tool of many photojournalists - yet today, who can even remember a Graflex Speed Graphic - the tool of Weegee etc.

    As a 4x5" user, HB 6x6 film and MFD and Xpan - I also view it is a sad development - but it is a simple hard reality.

    That said, I still would like a CFV-50c for 5k..... as I still have my old 'blad..... and would love to put her to use.

    In the interim I'll enjoy my Nikon's and Fuji's, and eagerly await other developments on the horizon.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    It's difficult to see any other reason for Phase to buy it other than getting rid of a competitor.
    To learn about and integrate true focus into their body.

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    Senior Member Stefan Steib's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlinkingEye View Post
    To learn about and integrate true focus into their body.
    As about all AF Technology is patented by Japanese companies, I wouldn´t be too astonished if that patent is held by Fuji and Hasselblad has only the usage rights for it. So I´m pretty sure not even that asset is owned by Blad.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    LOL! A HUGE amount of speculation based on an unsubstantiated rumor … all discussed as if it were fact. Gotta love the internet.

    IMHO "35mm FF is the new MFD" is just more of the dumbing down of photography. While it is very nice that we have high resolution smaller sensor cameras, (especially relevant when the economy went bust and was slow to recover), it doesn't mean that there aren't substantial differences between the two. If there weren't, then a 40 meg cell phone would be "the new 35mm FF" … i.e.. my cell phone is as good as your Sony A7R-II and cost substantially less. Just depends on how far one wants too dumb down photography.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    As about all AF Technology is patented by Japanese companies, I wouldn´t be too astonished if that patent is held by Fuji and Hasselblad has only the usage rights for it. So I´m pretty sure not even that asset is owned by Blad.

    https://www.google.com/patents/WO2010149763A1?cl=en
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Well since Sony has now spun its sensor section out as a new business..... who knows what developments we'll see?

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    Senior Member Swissblad's Avatar
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    IMHO "35mm FF is the new MFD" is just more of the dumbing down of photography.

    - Marc
    Not sure why this should be dumbing down....rather it seems to be a logical development driven largely by the consumer and market share.

    It will be interesting to see if Sony will develop any new MF chips etc., now that they have a new company for this purpose.

    Concerning MF optics - there hasn't been anything of note in ages - and there is nothing on the horizon.

    Gone are the days when a blue striped Hassy was the star at Fotokina.

    On the other hand, with regard to the original comment, I'm sure Oscar Barnack was accused of the same when he developed the original Leica.

    I find it rather ironic, that this rather distorted lopsided format is the one to survive (and thrive).

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    The new Phase 35mm is a pretty sweet new development in MF optics, no? Many people are comparing it to the Rodenstock 40mm / 32mm HR lenses, so that's saying something.

    With regards to MF surviving or 35mm being the new MF (whatever that means, as it's physically impossible on spec.,) I think it depends on the individuals use case. I knew when buying my Credo 60 that I was never going to shoot it over a certain ISO and expect top end CMOS noise or DR; knew it didn't have the best or sharpest screen (marketing speak might tell you that it does, but it certainly doesn't. It's good, but IMHO barely good enough to check critical focus as the preview is too soft, especially in the shadows.) What I did do was test it for my own use case and very, very quickly I found out it is perfect for use on my Techno and the work I want to do. The frame ratio is perfect, so no cropping of valuable MPX to get the format I want; at base ISO–which 95% of my shooting is at–is perfect, even when I expose to preserve highlights on bright days and need to push the shadows in post; the colour is fabulous (although I'm a novice with C1 and have hard time with it,) and the user interface is brilliant and the most simple and elegant I've come across in the digital world. Most importantly to me thought is I get the IQ that I want and need (especially comparing to my previous 4x5" and 6x7cm film / Imacon 949 scanning workflow,) and that using the back on my camera of choice does something to inspire me in the field. I was really worried about this when I made the move; that I'd lose the zen like enjoyment of using a view camera in the field, but it's actually been the opposite. It's been liberating.

    With regards to Hasselblad's financial trouble, it's hard to see–at least from my very distant perspectice–how they can keep their heads above water without the imminent release and sales success of a revolutionary product. Like a full frame CMOS back with 2016 screen, interface and functionality together with an H6 body that touts more than incrimental gains in features. I've said it many times before, but Hasselblad were long and in many ways still are my preferred DMF SLR camera. In the end though, being a technical camera user, the poor screen and external battery options moved me to Leaf (that and I got a great deal on my back.) I only wish my back was H mount rather than V, to be honest.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Not sure why this should be dumbing down....rather it seems to be a logical development driven largely by the consumer and market share.

    It will be interesting to see if Sony will develop any new MF chips etc., now that they have a new company for this purpose.

    Concerning MF optics - there hasn't been anything of note in ages - and there is nothing on the horizon.

    Gone are the days when a blue striped Hassy was the star at Fotokina.

    On the other hand, with regard to the original comment, I'm sure Oscar Barnack was accused of the same when he developed the original Leica.

    I find it rather ironic, that this rather distorted lopsided format is the one to survive (and thrive).
    I don't think anyone would dispute why photographic gear is moving in the direction it is … as you say … "largely driven by the consumer market share".

    However, the far more dominate influence has been the cell phone, not 35mm from the previous century. Cell phones have revolutionized how people interact with a camera, and integrate photography into their lives. It is far more organic than ever before.

    In a sense, the cell phone is the perfect personification of the old saying: "f/8 and be there"

    When the Pope visited the US recently, the amount of old fashioned 35mm cameras of any kind was a grain of sand in a massive beach of cell phone toting folks seeking a "selfie" with him. I don't recall people lined up around the block at a Sony store for the latest A camera like for the new iPhone-6s in Rose Gold.

    In short, one doesn't need to know very much about photography when using a cell phone to take a picture. It is this majority experience that is driving consumer expectations of photographic tools … "making a photo" has become "taking a photo". Even amongst more involved advanced amateurs (especially younger ones), there is a lot of pressure to mimic cell phone features. It's like when pocket calculators hit the mainstream, and everyone forgot how to add and multiply It's the process of "dumbing down" photography.

    This dumbing down has also influenced expectations of results. For decades I interacted with the public doing weddings and portrait work. Despite evolving tools and really working at the art and craft of photography, the recognition of either by consumers eroded exponentially. Quality was replaced with "digital quantity and expediency". Fewer and fewer actually printed anything. FaceBook was their Wedding Album, and 15 minutes of fame their mantra. Horrible cell shots of an ill lit bride posted on social sites by guests garnered a million "likes" and "oohs & ahhs".

    So, one could say that "survival and thriving" applied to 35mm are relative terms, and a transient ones at that. It is just a matter of time before the combination of hardware and software will make it all a moot point.

    Regarding "nothing of note for MF optics" … I think this overlooks the offerings from Leica, Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax and killer tech lenses from Rodenstock and Schneider. Hasselblad updated a number of their H focal lengths in recent years and added a 24mm … notably the new HC50-II is a stunning optical achievement, to which they added a C/U objective that matched it. Phase has brought forward a number of well liked Schneider optics. Most notable has been Leica's S series lenses for larger than 35mm format. All new from the ground up. Recently they added the 45/2.8, and very recently the 100/2 which are a couple of my favorite MF lenses of all time.

    Personally, I've been opting out of mainstream 35mm in favor of more specialized tools supplemented by … my iPhone. When I shoot with the Leica MM, I use the iPhone for any color snaps I would normally take. When I shoot with the Leica S camera it's either in the studio where peeping through a tiny 35mm electronic viewfinder all day is a chore compared to the big bright finder of the S, or when working mobile with lighting I can toggle between FP ad CS modes at will. Specialization as opposed to generalization of photographic tools is what works for me now … and the iPhone picks up the rest.

    This isn't meant to take away from those who love the cornucopia of stuff belching out of the Sony brand. Use what suits you. But I sure wouldn't call it an inexpensive venture. For the price of the annual camera updates most people have been engaging in, and all new lenses for the A-FE mount system, the CFVc can now be had … but that is a totally different photographic experience … albeit one I personally loved a lot, and miss to this day.

    BTW, when I scan through all the images in the Fun With MF, and likewise FF Sony, I'm always struck by the obvious differences in IQ rather than the often touted similarities. Nothing I can do about that. It is what it is.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Marc

    I in no way wanted to start a flame war - I am after all a Hassy user.

    As you've stated the cell phone camera has completely changed public/camera interaction - I don't think a single one of my graduate students has a camera other than their iPhone.

    After a recent Fotokina, my local camera store disposed of all his stock and focussed exclusively on Leica - the reason being that at the Cologne exhibition - one only saw 2 types of cameras - iPhones and Leica M's.

    The sad truth is that just as Hassy is struggling now, we may well see Nikon & Canon is the same boat a few years down the road - especially if they cannot resolve their QC issues. e.g. D600, D800,300mm PF, new 200-500 zoom etc.

    Let's enjoy what we have, and make images worthy of sharing - whatever gear we use.

    Cheers, S
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    While we're on the topic of iPhones vs other cameras.....



    One this is for sure the major manufacturers can no longer rest on their ******s.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    hi hi hi

    The truth is in the middle, I don't think the next medium format is the FF optically they are different the difference in DOF of a MF form a FF is like the difference form a FF and a 1" compact camera...
    About the proliferation of camera-phone and compact etc that have comparable IQ of a FF is another story.....
    A Professional photographer that need MF digital camera simply need it and he knows Why.
    I read many that say x, y, z, is better than MF but in the reality is only vapor, MF have practically the same quality of large format.

    Of course if we reduce the discussion about size, cost, etc, Saying in the future the Images are relegate to little size for Internet pubblications and online magazine, All MF etc. Producer have to close.

    Both H and P1 are in trouble, Nikon & Canon are in trouble too and the selling of FF is falling Year after Year......

    Maybe if H or P1 join togheter in a newco they can stand this crisis.... Who know? The important thing is they have to continue producing H and P1 cameras body, lenses, and Backs !!

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Thats interesting ! Thank you for that info !

    Regards
    Stefan
    because photography is more than technology - and " as we have done this all the time "
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    Marc

    I in no way wanted to start a flame war - I am after all a Hassy user.

    As you've stated the cell phone camera has completely changed public/camera interaction - I don't think a single one of my graduate students has a camera other than their iPhone.

    After a recent Fotokina, my local camera store disposed of all his stock and focussed exclusively on Leica - the reason being that at the Cologne exhibition - one only saw 2 types of cameras - iPhones and Leica M's.

    The sad truth is that just as Hassy is struggling now, we may well see Nikon & Canon is the same boat a few years down the road - especially if they cannot resolve their QC issues. e.g. D600, D800,300mm PF, new 200-500 zoom etc.

    Let's enjoy what we have, and make images worthy of sharing - whatever gear we use.

    Cheers, S
    I, for one, didn't take any of this as a "flame war"".

    Just a frank discussion and sharing of opinions regarding the forces and influences that are exerting change.

    Outside of the cell-phone revolution, there is no doubt that higher resolution mirror-less offerings are exerting the most disruptive technologies on traditional photographic practices. We are probably only one generation away from the demise of most MF systems based on technology from the previous century. The question is … will there be a place for larger sensor cameras (larger than 35mm), with enough user support to financially sustain the necessary new-tech advancements?

    From a purely pragmatic perspective, I'd say no, there is not. Once the current MFD user base with the means and dogged nostalgia has been eclipsed by the upcoming generations of serious photographers that cut their teeth on fast mutating new tech, I seriously doubt MFD will survive. The exception to that could be realized IF the makers of larger sensor cameras would be more aggressive in making MFD more accessible, while promoting the real differences one could realize in certain or specific artistic expression, as opposed to just pragmatic general comparisons.

    Believe me, I get the reluctance to drop 6X to 10X the cost of FF 35mm for ANY MFD camera. When I was shooting for money even part-time, it was much easier to keep current. Now that I'm retired, I really have to weigh the practical against the gain in certain artistic expressions as I see it (i.e., not someone else's opinion).

    I'm about to drop bundle on a new S(007) while watching the value of my 1.5 year old, pristine S(006) plummet in value. The question becomes, will this new S CMOS camera make a difference in my art? How much difference? For how long?

    Answer: At my age "time" is more important than practical considerations. If I am to engage in photography, it will be on my own artistic terms and preferred user experience … not some highly rationalized compromises.

    However, were this me 15 or 20 years ago, but operating in this climate of very rapid change and less certain commercial opportunity, I'd be hard pressed to justify the gap in price between high-res 35mm and MFD.

    So, for many who DO see and value the artistic merits that MFD could offer, I'd speculate that PRICE/VALUE has always been the real barrier, and all other rationalizations are just that … rational excuses to avoid paying the heavy tariff. What if MFD were merely 2X the cost of 35mm?

    Frankly, the MFD arena has been plagued by the "what ifs". What if MFD presented as a better value earlier (pre-Pentax)? What if all of them had been less arrogant? What if MFD companies had seen the handwriting earlier and banned together to more aggressively pursue CMOS? What if they had addressed the incredibly poor LCD issues earlier? What if there had been a 56X56 sensor for the square format cameras? All of us probably could add to this "What IF" list.

    What if …. it's to late?

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Hi Marc

    I don´t think MF will disappear completely. There will always be a specialized customer like cultural heritage institutions , libraries, Museums, technology based applications for industrial usage. I´d say a company like Phase will make it. But with a different portfolio.
    Their Software need to become database aware and programmable for these users. SDKs for this will become a real business and they will just quietly leave the "normal" photography market. (take Megavision as an example)

    The economic question of R&D , new lenses and customer support as a small company, as well as the current dealer models will simply make this impossible to sustain further.

    Canon knows this and is now moving into this direction, I´d say the 5Dsr is the closest competitor for MF, especially if you take into account their professional setup, like CPS, enough highend lenses and a working support channel.

    Sony ist targeting another market, the semipro and the volume.
    I wish there will be a place for Nikon, but I fear they are too small.
    And this is simply an economic question, not one of the better cameras.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Hi Marc

    I don´t think MF will disappear completely. There will always be a specialized customer like cultural heritage institutions , libraries, Museums, technology based applications for industrial usage. I´d say a company like Phase will make it. But with a different portfolio.
    Their Software need to become database aware and programmable for these users. SDKs for this will become a real business and they will just quietly leave the "normal" photography market. (take Megavision as an example)

    The economic question of R&D , new lenses and customer support as a small company, as well as the current dealer models will simply make this impossible to sustain further.

    Canon knows this and is now moving into this direction, I´d say the 5Dsr is the closest competitor for MF, especially if you take into account their professional setup, like CPS, enough highend lenses and a working support channel.

    Sony ist targeting another market, the semipro and the volume.
    I wish there will be a place for Nikon, but I fear they are too small.
    And this is simply an economic question, not one of the better cameras.

    Greetings from Germany
    Stefan
    I didn't mean to imply that MFD will disappear completely, which is why I said "MFD based on last century's technology". BUT, I do think that is a real possibility it could be gone in a generation IF something drastic doesn't happen.

    I also think that institutional and industrial applications will be attacked from a number of alternative directions in the coming years … by technology we can't even predict right now. Whether that has Phase logo on it is up for speculation. I seriously doubt it.

    I do not believe it will be like the MF of the past, where people could nurse the discontinued mechanical wonders for a long time (like the venerated V). The problem with MFD as a small base, cult product is one of technical sustainability for the owner. Old backs are very hard to sustain, as soon as Kodak abandoned digital, getting a battery to run a Proback became extremely difficult.

    The question is what would be that drastic thing that revitalizes MFD and allows us to reap the benefits of large sensor photography?

    Remember when Hasselblad teased us with something new coming? Speculation immediately went to an EVF version of the Mamiya 7. Instead we got the Lunar lunacy.

    - Marc
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Not with the Nikon D810 and Sony A7rII. And worse when we think that in a few months we'll see more powerful and capable FF cameras.


    Quote Originally Posted by richardman View Post
    Fortumers are hard crowd to please - the honeymoon of $10K CVF50C didn't even last more than 3 days

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    In the film days MF systems cost around 3X the cost of 35mm. With the advent of the super MP FF bodies and the need for sharper glass, the prices are coming higher every year while MF bodies are coming down. Perhaps when DMF prices get to be again 3X the prices of FF, DMF survival will be guaranteed.
    Eduardo



    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    I am not so sure FF is the new MF. I think (but I may be completely wrong) that Sony made their 50Mpix MF sensor to test the waters. I think the test was positive, and there will be more MF sensors coming from Sony.

    I suspect (again, could be wrong) that sensor size may become a significant marketing argument to sell "serious" cameras. As camera-phone with small sensors become more and more popular (but can they be more popular than now) and FF cameras are getting "too cheap" to make good money out of them, selling an expensive camera with good margins becomes more and more difficult. And the only "easy" argument why camera A costing 5k Euros is better than camera B costing 1k Euros will be "because it has a bigger sensor".

    But again, maybe MF is dying and FF will remain the only "reasonable" alternative.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Good find. Thanks.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    In the film days MF systems cost around 3X the cost of 35mm. With the advent of the super MP FF bodies and the need for sharper glass, the prices are coming higher every year while MF bodies are coming down. Perhaps when DMF prices get to be again 3X the prices of FF, DMF survival will be guaranteed.
    Eduardo
    In the film days, a medium format negative was three to four times as large as a 35mm negative. The Sony MF sensor is around twice the size of a 35mm sensor. Still, all medium format cameras except Leica, which is the only one that was built as a digital system from the bottom, are roughly the same size as the 645 cameras they were built upon.

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    In the film days MF systems cost around 3X the cost of 35mm. With the advent of the super MP FF bodies and the need for sharper glass, the prices are coming higher every year while MF bodies are coming down. Perhaps when DMF prices get to be again 3X the prices of FF, DMF survival will be guaranteed.
    Eduardo
    Nikon D810: USD 2796.95
    Zeiss Otus 55: USD 3990.00
    Total: USD 6786.95

    Canon 5DSR: USD 3899.00
    Zeiss Otus 55: USD 3990.00
    Total: USD 7889.00

    Leaf Credo 40 (With 645DF+ and 80mm LS): USD 13,995.00
    Leaf Credo 50 (With 645DF+ and 80mm LS): USD 27,995.00


    Less than 2x and a bit more than 4x times, depending on what you want from 35mm and DMF respectively.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    Nikon D810: USD 2796.95
    Zeiss Otus 55: USD 3990.00
    Total: USD 6786.95

    Canon 5DSR: USD 3899.00
    Zeiss Otus 55: USD 3990.00
    Total: USD 7889.00

    Leaf Credo 40 (With 645DF+ and 80mm LS): USD 13,995.00
    Leaf Credo 50 (With 645DF+ and 80mm LS): USD 27,995.00


    Less than 2x and a bit more than 4x times, depending on what you want from 35mm and DMF respectively.
    ..but an otus & fullframe combination is equal or offers better image quality than your leaf /mamiya for 1/2 the price. btw. stefan is absolut right sony, canon and nikon high mp count cameras are the workhorses in professional photography this days. for me it is absolut ridiculous what people are able to see in digital mf files having shot every format from 8x10 to 35mm in my carrier. there is absolut nothing special except resolution with 645 and with todays offerings even this gap is almost closed too. enjoy your camera but don´t draw any conclusion how the pro market works or what pro photographers need from your experience.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    ..but an otus & fullframe combination is equal or offers better image quality than your leaf /mamiya for 1/2 the price.
    If you believe this, good for you. You've saved yourself some money.
    I apologize for having higher standards.

    BTW, my post has nothing to do with what pro photographers want or need. It was a response to a post about pricing.
    I know and have worked with several pros who use both systems and they have their own reasons for using what they use.
    My little corner on the internet.
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    there is this blanket, assumed implication that "pro" needs regarding image quality are universally more demanding of image quality. while that may be true for a portion of the pro market, i think generalizing is misleading. i would argue that the demands of the fine art photographer could be quite high, as they are driven by his own needs and perceptions, rather than those of a client, who may or may not have a sophisticated vision. furthermore, shooting conditions are typically completely different
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Not really surprised if this merger happens. Both companies are essentially Danish (albeit with some Hasselblad manufacturing still in Sweden). Both companies see where the market is going - there is only room for so many players in the MF market.

    Hasselblad should have seen this (the collapsing market/competition from FF) coming a long time ago and entered FF high end with Carl Zeiss partnership. Instead Sony is taking over that niche, going from consumer products to pro. [He said, with a firm grip on the rearview mirror.]
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swissblad View Post
    New story on Photo Rumors......???
    It's interesting to go down below his post and read comments. It's clear that no one really knows what is going on. Even some of the pretty well known names. But everyone sure has an opinion on the state of the MF market. Probably one of the best kept secrets of photography.

    Sadly I have to agree with Thom's predicdition of one the MF market continuing to be low volume high price. Current list price of just the XF body confirms this.

    Only Pentax seems aimed at a growth/volume bid i.e. New XF + $400= 645Z.



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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    The slow death of MF....?

    I have a foot in both camps - Sony a7 series and Phase XF etc.

    I feel that, as usual, it depends on what you do with your pictures.The vast majority of pro images will never be produced at more than a double, full page spread in a classy magazine. You don't even need 24 mpx for those, and 42 mpx is overkill (except for the ability to crop extensively).

    But for those of us who want 60+ inch prints with the utmost quality, a good big'un will still trump a good little one. I have compared such prints (and I stress prints) and to my eye there is no contest. Whether my buyers can see the difference... well, I don't know. But I'm fortunate to take only the pictures I choose and I CAN see the difference.

    I was frustrated 4 by 5 in. guy in a former life, forced to use 6x 6 cm for practical reasons. Now I love my a7/ii/r images - but I adore my MF shots. Just as most of us will never buy a Ferrari, most of us will not buy into MF - but I think there will always be a select few who will want that extra real estate that MF provides. (At a cost!)

    Now, despite my aged bones, I must go and grab my tripod and 25 kg of gear....

    Bill
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    Re: Hasselblad to be sold to Phase One...?

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    ..but an otus & fullframe combination is equal or offers better image quality than your leaf /mamiya for 1/2 the price. btw. stefan is absolut right sony, canon and nikon high mp count cameras are the workhorses in professional photography this days. for me it is absolut ridiculous what people are able to see in digital mf files having shot every format from 8x10 to 35mm in my carrier. there is absolut nothing special except resolution with 645 and with todays offerings even this gap is almost closed too. enjoy your camera but don´t draw any conclusion how the pro market works or what pro photographers need from your experience.
    I think speaking in absolutes like this is a very difficult thing to do when making comparisons. Whether Pro, Semi-Pro or Advanced Amateur, the standards, functional expectations, and actual aesthetic demands of each photographer can vary widely.

    Add to this the shift in how photographic images are being used, where they are shown, and how they are being presented and/or sold, and that diversity becomes exponentially greater.

    Drawing any conclusion regarding "how the professional market works" depends greatly on who, what and where. High resolution 35mm with more exotic glass may well be "the workhorses" in more cases than in past, but that erosion of MF has been generally true for a long time … even before the total domination by digital. Wedding/event/portrait Pros shifted from 2 1/4 to 35mm in the film era.

    People marketing on the internet don't actually need 35MM digital with Otus Optics and most certainly not 43 or 50 meg FF. However, "need" and "want" are two entirely different things. That principle also applies to MFD.

    In the case of really demanding professional work there are still a fair amount of shooters that "RENT" higher res, larger sensor MFD, and there are still a good number of fashion shooters using larger sensor cameras … the very target Leica positioned the S camera system toward and continues to do for good reason, (even if the majority of their buyers may not be professionals). That demanding archivists, institutions, and applied industrial applications select MFD is also a telling aspect regarding IQ.

    MF has been a specialized tool for some time now, and I don't think that has changed. IMO, what has changed is the amount of work that demands that level of competence.

    - Marc

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