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Thread: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

  1. #51
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    You may find it hard to believe Christoph but it doesn't make it any less true!

    I no longer bother with Nikon stuff but I have years of files from the D800 and E, not the D810 and I can spot an S file easily, there's not one individual thing, it's a combination of many things that give the S simply better files for the work that I do. I doubt it's universal, we don't all see or value things in the same way. It's not about convincing someone that they are right or wrong, proving anything, it's about finding what works for you regardless of what that equipment is. I don't think it's important that anyone else sees what I see in my files, why would it?! I don't personally have any wish to persuade people that the choices I make are the only right choices and I certainly don't need to prove it unless you are a client of course!

    I have said before about the S compared with Nikons, it's like taking a D810 adding a huge viewfinder so that you could accurately focus Otus lenses wide open with little problem. then getting Zeiss to add af to the otus, expanding the range to add the same quality to all lenses and then add a sensor with larger pixels, smoother transitions, and an incredible 3d feel to the files. That's how I see it, it makes the S worth every penny and more! I have earned more money in the last 2 years from the Leica purely because of how it allows me to work and the files I provide to my clients.

    As long as you enjoy the kit you have then that's great, more power to you!

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    The problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the D810 or A7RII can achieve similar IQ on test charts than the Leica S or other MF cameras in controlled conditions, when using select lenses. I don't doubt that, I compared similar cameras some time ago.

    But what this test is not saying is that the MF camera, about any MF camera, will do that consistently on any subject (if there is enough light, that is a real limitation of MF cameras) and with the complete series of lenses available.
    I am not talking about test shots. But architecture, interior design, landscape or portrait images with lenses of comparable field of view at apertures of comparable depth of field. And these images well adjusted in post regarding color temperature, color, contrast a.s.o.. In such an A/B test, the crop MF Leica S would have to show it's IQ advantage compared to 135 with similar resolution and DR.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    And regarding lenses, for example Batis 25f2, FE 35f1.4, FE 55f1.8 or Otus 55f1.4, Batis 85f1.8 or Otus 85f1.4, FE 90f2.8 Macro, ZE 135f2 Apo would be the "the complete series of lenses available" and I assume they are on Leica S level.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    And regarding lenses, for example Batis 25f2, FE 35f1.4, FE 55f1.8 or Otus 55f1.4, Batis 85f1.8 or Otus 85f1.4, FE 90f2.8 Macro, ZE 135f2 Apo would be the "the complete series of lenses available" and I assume they are on Leica S level.

    Why exclude Leica M and R lenses?
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    @ Marc & Bob:

    Can you show 1:1 comparison pictures Leica S vs. Nikon D810 or Sony A7R/RII to proove your statements that the Leica system can achieve significantly better image quality than the Nikon/Sony cameras with lenses at Otus/Batis/ZE135Apo level? Hard to believe for me.

    Thx Christoph
    Hey man

    Marc may have the time and ability to do 1:1 comparisons...

    As a soon to be retired cardiac anesthesiologist I am lucky to make all my family's expectations...
    finding time for my passions and outlets still take a distant third to all the requirements of work, church and home.

    But I can say that I love the idea of a small Nikon with very balanced shutter and Zeiss lenses giving me something that can approximate the S .... So much so that I dropped the S006 upgrade ... had a camera with a new lens that could not AF and returned to the D810 ... Both Otus and the 135 F2 ZF2 to add to my 25 F 2 ZF2 and my 50 1.4 ZE ... for my C100 Mk II did I mention I love motion....?

    What a disappointment for me when I ran the files through LR C1 and RPP ... also Nikons proprietary NX-2 NX-D software.

    The lenses are stellar but the overall workflow approaches but never closes on the DR and acuity of the Leica ... I have been doing this since 1971 ... film ... Leica rangefinder Hassey 500's LF 4x5 Sinar and Linhoff ... MF Mamiya 7 ... Hasselblad H 1 H2 H3D 39 ... Phase 20 with Alpa ... scanning with a Imacon Hassey 343 scanner.

    So no one to one but my take is one of disappointment ... Leica has major AF issues with lenses... when a 70 S at this point will not AF new out of the box ... that is not acceptable... but the image from the system is stellar ... nothing in 35 approaches it ...

    My sense is that if you would rent ... trial ... borrow ... an S for a weekend you would find for YOURSELF ... what you need to understand.

    Now if you do motion the 4K from the S007 looks gorgeous...

    BTW small web based JPGs are a waste ... a waste of time ... I cannot imagine that you could come to a decision based on something shown here ...

    Do some 21x28 prints ... or larger and you will perceive the focus that drives S users ... hell MF users on the whole.

    Its the best Ive got with the time I have to invest in this thread ...

    Bob
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    And regarding lenses, for example Batis 25f2, FE 35f1.4, FE 55f1.8 or Otus 55f1.4, Batis 85f1.8 or Otus 85f1.4, FE 90f2.8 Macro, ZE 135f2 Apo would be the "the complete series of lenses available" and I assume they are on Leica S level.
    Batis Milvus both are not individually QC'd like the Otus ... so good luck with you purchase ...

    Read Ming Thein's take on the Milvus and he waxes eloquently on the Otus ... mainly due to the time takes to ensure perfect specs.

    Leica S does the same ....

    Yes most of the lenses are probably in spec but when you continue to read of reviewers buying 3 lenses to find the best ...

    Love my Zeiss lenses and I moved to the Otus after reading the Ming and Digiloyd writeups...

    Now I need a sensor and optical VF to challenge the S to mate them with...

    I get better DR and presence with the 1Dx and D3s than the D810 .... bigger pixels make a
    difference in spite of what DXO benchmarks might suggest.

    Bob
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    @ Marc & Bob:

    Can you show 1:1 comparison pictures Leica S vs. Nikon D810 or Sony A7R/RII to proove your statements that the Leica system can achieve significantly better image quality than the Nikon/Sony cameras with lenses at Otus/Batis/ZE135Apo level? Hard to believe for me.

    Thx Christoph
    That's a fair question Christoph … albeit the constant challenge leveled against MFD in general. Frankly I've wracked my brain trying to identify why I prefer one camera/sensor/lens/ system over another to the degree I (and others) do.

    I think it may be an issue of different criteria. In my case Image Quality is important, but Image Qualities are the criteria … the former suggests technical performance with 1:1 comparisons and pixel peeping, the latter suggests aesthetic performance of a system which gets into areas far more difficult to quantify because they involve personal aesthetic judgments … like "look and feel", "consistent characteristics", "pleasing to the eye", "image presence", "subtile rendering", etc. … especially when the image is viewed as a whole, not just in part.

    The S system isn't the first time Image Qualities was the decision criteria for me. When I worked with a Contax 645 system, the Mamiya regional supervisor had quantifiable proof that their lenses were sharper … yet, even if true, I didn't care because the aesthetic Image Qualities of the Contax optics made it no contest. A lot of people felt that way when Hasselblad moved to the H lenses and left Zeiss. Despite charted proof that the H lenses were technically the equal or better, a lot of photographers missed the image characteristics or image qualities of the Zeiss lenses.

    BTW, Leica isn't immune to my own personal Image Qualities criteria. I opted out of purchasing a M(240) after 35 years of continuous M usage. While the camera itself was undeniably better than a M9, and the resolution was improved, I simply didn't care for what the images looked like. My M work is now strictly with a M Monochrome.

    Personally, I have never believed this creative endeavor of photography can simply be reduced down to charts. I DO think we justifiably do that to evaluate our tools on some common ground … but there are not many digital cameras and premium lenses these days that do not have excellent IQ for most applications … what then remains is personal evaluation as it pertains to our own aesthetic criteria (thus my term: Image Qualities).

    For me, that has been and remains the Image Qualities from the Leica S system as a whole. I also honestly believe Leica understands this concept, even resisting the trend to "over pixel populate" a sensor which can make it more difficult for the user to realize the full Image Quality and Image Qualities in a variety of applications.

    I was worried that the new S(007) with a new CMOS sensor would alter the Image Qualities I prefer from the S2/S2P/SE/S(006). Fortunately, Jono's real-world work/test put those concerns to rest

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Some more food for thought. Alexander Heinrichs compares H3DII with a7R and 5DIII (in German):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZJry55GRU0
    There's a link to full size JPGs in the video description.
    Leica S RAW files:
    http://s-newsletter.leica-camera.com/s2-raw/
    http://www.photographyblog.com/previ...ica_s2_photos/
    http://www.reddotforum.com/forums/to...s-dng-samples/

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    I am not talking about test shots. But architecture, interior design, landscape or portrait images with lenses of comparable field of view at apertures of comparable depth of field. And these images well adjusted in post regarding color temperature, color, contrast a.s.o.. In such an A/B test, the crop MF Leica S would have to show it's IQ advantage compared to 135 with similar resolution and DR.
    And regarding lenses, for example Batis 25f2, FE 35f1.4, FE 55f1.8 or Otus 55f1.4, Batis 85f1.8 or Otus 85f1.4, FE 90f2.8 Macro, ZE 135f2 Apo would be the "the complete series of lenses available" and I assume they are on Leica S level.

    You "assume", but you do not know. I don't know either, BTW.

    All what we have are internet reviews which paint lenses like the Batis and Otus as the best thing to happen to photography in the past years. Maybe they are. Maybe, indeed, Zeiss and Sony managed to get the same performance as Leica, but on smaller pixels.

    I would be tempted to say that indeed they managed such a feast, provided the subject is as high contrast as a test chart and flat and we use some kind of distortion and chromatic aberration correction and we use f/8. In other cases, I don't know, but I would be tempted to say that the differences, if any, will only show on massive prints.

    Now, I don't use Leica S, I use an H4D-50. It may be that the A7RII is just as good with Batis and Otus lenses, I would still find that the H4D has a much better viewfinder, and that, with Phocus, all optical corrections are automatic and I can just concentrate on taking pictures, not on post-processing them. Maybe Leica S users have similar advantages, which have nothing to do with resolution, as measured on a test chart at f/8.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I don't shoot Leica (Phamiyaleaf user here), but even the weakest lens I have (Mamiya 150 f/3.5 AF) renders more beautifully than the best Nikons I have and used (I don't have an Otus and have no interest in a manual lens for a DSLR unless it's a wide).



    I agree with the previous posts about how larger format lenses have a gentler, smoother rolloff from in focus to out of focus areas. I find that the "3D look" is much better achieved in larger formats. This has nothing to do with the amount of pixels stuffed into the sensor. Just like how an 80MP MFD sensor can outresolve scanned 8x10 film, but can't match the "Look" of the format, you can stuff as many pixels into a 135 sensor as you want, but the "Look" won't match that of MFD, IMO.

    Another factor is that the new gen, made for digital 135 lenses are too clinical with no character. current day MF lenses are climically very sharp too (Like the 80mm LS that I have), but they have plenty of character. Even more so with the older lenses. In fact, the only modern day, smaller format lenses that I have found to render to my tastes are the Fujinons for the X system.

    The 50mm shift I have recently aquired is nowhere as sharp as any modern lens, but I absolutely love how it renders.



    (Right click on both pictures -> View image to see them at a bigger size.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Perhaps I missed it, but has anyone has asked the OP how he would expect to use the Leica S? If the intended use is travel and landscape and not studio use or fashion on a set, I would suggest not just taking a few frames and comparing them for ultimate IQ. Put each camera and 4 primes in a camera bag and walk around with it for 4 hours and then see what you think. Try shooting both cameras off a tripod at ISO 3200 and compare those files. My point is that this is really an apples to oranges comparison and and an apples to oranges decision.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Perhaps I missed it, but has anyone has asked the OP how he would expect to use the Leica S? If the intended use is travel and landscape and not studio use or fashion on a set, I would suggest not just taking a few frames and comparing them for ultimate IQ. Put each camera and 4 primes in a camera bag and walk around with it for 4 hours and then see what you think. Try shooting both cameras off a tripod at ISO 3200 and compare those files. My point is that this is really an apples to oranges comparison and and an apples to oranges decision.
    Indeed, and even that is very dependent on the person. For example, I take less than 4 primes in my bag when using the MF camera. I take a zoom on the 24x36, which is heavier than the average MF lens.

    OTOH, the A7 is stabilised, and that is very useful on travel.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    This has been a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed all the opinions offered - so I guess I should offer mine, though it's really more about MF than Leica specifically. I'm a Phase addict and an MF user most of my life (Rolleis, Hassys, etc) and while I own Sony gear for travel, I just don't enjoy using it like I do my Phase gear.

    Even if the images from Sony were equal (which they are not), I'd still use the Phase gear for one of the reasons Marc expressed re the Leica - I get a buzz using it!

    My Phase camera and back and 35 mm LS lens weigh a ton and I have to use a backpack because either my neck or my wrist would break if I hand-carried it for long. Today I hiked 9 kms with it and wondered - is this really worth it? Then I viewed the images on my Mac - and yes, it WAS worth it!

    There's no gain without pain, I guess.

    One day I might try Leica MF, but whatever the result, I'm pretty sure I'll like the images better than Sony, even as the game-changer miracle that it is.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    It may depend where you look. I was recently shooting in some pretty dark churches with an A7rII and viewing was incredibly good, much better than with the naked eye.

    On the other an EVF is pretty dark i strong sunlight.

    With an EVF you can have 10-12X magnification in the viewfinder, that is something no OVF offers.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    One look through the viewfinder of the Leica S will change your view of 35mm digital cameras, especially ones with EVF's.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    I have been shooting a P45+ with a bunch of Hasselblad V-series lenses for something like two years now and just got myself Sony A7rII which I use with existing lenses and adapters. Most of the time I had the A7rII I was shooting on travel. But, I made some comparison shots with my Hasselblad stuff.

    What I have seen was not that conclusive. In some cases the Sony had an edge (comparing Distagon 40/4 CFE and Sony A7rII with a Canon 24/3.5). A recent comparison I made were nearly dead ringers.

    Another comparison I made between the Planar 100/3.5 P45+ and the Sony 90/2.8 macro went in favour of the Planar 100, but I had a small focusing error on the Sony.

    A third comparison I made is essentially a dead ringer.

    There is a lot of possibility for experimental error doing these kinds of comparison.

    Using Lightroom 6.2 it seem that LR has a tendency to produce aliasing artefacts to a larger extent with the Sony than with the P45+. Images converted by RawTherapee don't show this.

    Now, this doesn't say a lot about the Leica S-E. The P45 sensor is a bit larger than the Leica sensor but is of similar design. In all probability the the Sony has cleaner deep shadows. But the Leica probably has quite a bit better lenses.

    Naturally, it all depends on what you put in front of the camera. Leica lenses are known to be excellent. The choice of truly excellent lenses for the Sony is limited. The 35/1.4, 55/1.8 and the 90/2.8G are known to be very good and so are the two Batis lenses said to be very good.

    Personally, I would think that those Leica lenses would deserve more pixels.

    Another point may be that the A7rII is more like an imaging device, with a complex user interface. The Leica S is a classic camera.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Erik, as long as you keep processing Phase files in LR, your deductions have to be taken with a grain of salt or two. I am sorry, it needs to be said.
    My little corner on the internet.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi Synn,

    I don't argue with that. In the most recent comparison I used RawTherapee. Just to say, C1 doesn't support Leica S-E which the original poster asked about, so using C1 is not really an option for him. But both cameras use a similar Kodak sensor, although the S-E has smaller pixels, so comparing Kodak pixels on P45+ with Kodak pixels on Leica S-E using software that supports both sensors may also make some sense.

    But I definitively feel that Adobe has not done it's homework.

    Best regards
    Erik




    Quote Originally Posted by synn View Post
    Erik, as long as you keep processing Phase files in LR, your deductions have to be taken with a grain of salt or two. I am sorry, it needs to be said.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB
    Sorry, but this endless debate has been quite pointless.

    I am quoting the OP here again so we can get back to his query. He clearly liked his MF system but has moved to the A7 and now has a set of lenses etc (assumption).

    The reason he is thinking of the Leica S-E is ONLY because of the promotion and thus, cost savings offered.

    Finally, the question he is asking is if the Sony sensor will offer the same or different DETAIL compared to the one in Leica.

    So the two things that stand out are the 'cost issue' and the 'detail' i.e resolution of the sensor(s) involved. He is not talking about 'rendering' or how a particular lens 'draws' or how big/hefty a lens/camera combo is.

    We are all simply introducing our own biases/preferences into the equation.

    Yes, it would be quite helpful if he were to tell us why he wants MF and what kind of images he wants to make with his camera and under what conditions he shoots. ALL of those factors have a HUGE impact on what system would be the best for him given the cost constraints he obviously has to work within.

    My own journey has been fraught with mistakes, some very expensive ones, because I did not ask the right questions and because there was less than honest and full disclosure on both sides. I made the stupid assumption that because a camera costs a huge amount of money it would automatically take much better pictures. The truth turned out to be quite different. I learned a lot from that one.

    We all make our decisions based on our own personal tastes and our own ability to afford a piece of equipment. We then justify it in every possible way because it is hard to admit you made a mistake, an expensive, stupid one and we defend our choice of gear to no extent.

    The Leica system in this debate is obviously well liked and so is the Sony, both have their ardent supporters. Some great landscape photographers I know do not use either, still working with CaNikon DSLRs and producing stunning results. So in the end it is up to the individual.

    Louis says his head is with Sony but his heart wants MF. That is a common desire for many, myself included. Which is why I have both, the A7RII and the 645Z. I don't know why I should want MF, perhaps because I like using it and like the results? Today I am not so sure, the new Sony with the Batis lenses is a great combination. I am going through my own internal debate on which one is better for me, they both have advantages. The differences in terms of print and Image quality (I print large, over 20" long dimension) are getting harder to make out.

    Yes, the MF does have great bokeh but the 85 Batis on the A7RII when fully wide open is incredible for portraits.

    In the end, it is all an individual preference, as MJR says.

    Big Louis, you will simply have to try them all out. Be prepared though, to spend a lot more on the Leica overall, every little accessory and repair (if you ever need it) will cost you a whole lot more than the Sony or Pentax.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I'll likely never get into MF digital myself, but if I did the Leica S system would suck me in first. I handled one at the Leica store and instantly felt at home with it.

    Much as I like the Pentax 645 and the new Z, it just doesn't appeal to me the same way. The Hassy H feels too bulky and awkward, haven't played with a Phase One yet either.

    The Sony A7 system ultimately underwhelmed me; sold out of it.

    I'll stick with the M-P and the D750 as my large format digital. And keep going with my film cameras for a change and a different look: SWC, Polaroid, etc. I still have the Coolscan 9000 although I finding the Nikon D750 and 105 Macro lens makes a formidable negative copier using a Beseler enlarger's film holder as a mask. I rarely need more than the 16 Mpixel image files that produces.

    G

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    For some reason from reading your posts over many months I had the idea you owned the S system. Thanks for the clarification.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I just did a test between Sony 90mm macro with A7RII and 240LS SK with iq 180. The sony beat my 240 LS completely.

    I will post files later.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I just did a test between Sony 90mm macro with A7RII and 240LS SK with iq 180. The sony beat my 240 LS completely.

    I will post files later.
    I am looking forward to your images.
    With best regards, K-H.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I have both the A7rII and the Leica S 006. I have two lenses for the Sony, the 35 2.8 and the 55mm 1.8. I used to have the 35 1.4, but I had to return it because of uneven performance across the frame.
    When it comes to resolution alone, there is very little between the Leica and the Sony. The Sony lenses are not as sharp wide open, but the 55 is faster than the 70mm equivalent. Stopped down a bit, they are similar in resolution. The Sony lenses have more distortion, vignetting and chromatic aberrations. These can be fixed with lens profiles. The Leica also has lens profiles, but I find that they actually perform better without them, as the adjustments are mostly very small indeed, and by shifting every pixel to fix a tiny amount of distortion you are actually softening the image more than you are improving it. Anyway, that is a personal call.

    I find the handling and ergonomics of the Leica to be much much better, and for whatever reason it seems to turn out files that are more "finished" out of the box than the Sony. Both will get you there, but it is easier to do so with the Leica. The overall look of the lenses is also better, as is the color (to my subjective eyes). The Sony has better ISO performance above 800 (800 and below it is fairly similar, actually), and it is obviously much smaller and lighter. Battery life is horrendous, whereas it lasts all day in the Leica. The Leica is fully weather sealed and easy to operate with gloves etc.

    The Sony has a fiddly and annoying interface. Seriously, why won't it let you set a manual white balance in manual mode, custom mode 1 or 2, movie mode or aperture priority? You have to switch the camera to Program mode. Why are settings often blocked out in one mode, but available in another with no explanation as to why they are blocked? Why is the menu so haphazardly laid out? Why is the layout on the A7S slightly different than on the A7rII when their bodies are otherwise nearly the same? Why does the viewfinder sensor turn on the evf when an object is still six inches away, therefore making it impractical to actually use the tilting screen for waist level recording...etc etc. So much of the Sony interface and handling is half-done and thrown together...it does not feel like a professional camera at all. But if you want video or a compact travel camera, it is the clear choice as it can create such high quality images in such a compact kit.

    If I had to choose between the two cameras to only have one, it would certainly be the Leica. That said, the Sony can produce quite comparable results for a lot less money, albeit with more work. But that is really not any different than it was for a while now...the D800 could also compare rather well with the S on a good day...the Sony is in a similar boat. The results out of both cameras are spectacular, but to my mind the Leica results are often better, and this is a result of better lenses, 16 bit color, a more refined output (they have tweaked it with lightroom for four years now), and a camera that is far more ergonomic and freeing to use...it is a joy to shoot, and you spend less time messing with the interface, and more time actually taking more and better pictures.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    I just did a test between Sony 90mm macro with A7RII and 240LS SK with iq 180. The sony beat my 240 LS completely.

    I will post files later.
    I sense a disturbance in the force.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    the leica is bigger

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    the leica is bigger
    And many times the price of the Sony, not to mention the 645Z which can now be had for around $7k.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I sense a disturbance in the force.


    Me too. I have all of the above and the 240LS is no slouch (but neither is the A7RII & 90 macro).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post


    The Sony has a fiddly and annoying interface. Seriously, why won't it let you set a manual white balance in manual mode, custom mode 1 or 2, movie mode or aperture priority? You have to switch the camera to Program mode. Why are settings often blocked out in one mode, but available in another with no explanation as to why they are blocked? Why is the menu so haphazardly laid out? Why is the layout on the A7S slightly different than on the A7rII when their bodies are otherwise nearly the same? Why does the viewfinder sensor turn on the evf when an object is still six inches away, therefore making it impractical to actually use the tilting screen for waist level recording...etc etc. So much of the Sony interface and handling is half-done and thrown together...it does not feel like a professional camera at all. But if you want video or a compact travel camera, it is the clear choice as it can create such high quality images in such a compact kit.
    .

    there is no problem with setting custom white-balance in manuel mode with the a7rII - this is simply not true as some of your other claims but you believe the 16 bit color thing which is pure marketing BS...

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    My apologies CSP. Perhaps you are right about M and Aperture Priority...I could have sworn it prevented me from setting it at times, perhaps when a picture profile was set? Or maybe in the A7s, as that was my first Alpha series camera? Either way, it is certainly a problem in movie mode and memory recall, and one that annoys me, as those are the modes I use the most.
    As for 16 bit color, I don't really care whether it is the bit level that is responsible for the better color, or whether it is Leica's tuning, but whatever it is, I find it preferable.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    My apologies CSP. Perhaps you are right about M and Aperture Priority...I could have sworn it prevented me from setting it at times, perhaps when a picture profile was set? Or maybe in the A7s, as that was my first Alpha series camera? Either way, it is certainly a problem in movie mode and memory recall, and one that annoys me, as those are the modes I use the most.
    As for 16 bit color, I don't really care whether it is the bit level that is responsible for the better color, or whether it is Leica's tuning, but whatever it is, I find it preferable.

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    hi, i can´t comment on the movie aspects never used them but in general the camera can get very easy overwhelming because of the many features and settings and how they interact. it took me a long time to master it as intuitive as a canon. memory recall could indeed be improved. to learn and understand the camera better i very much recommend the ebooks by gary friedman.

    color rendering is to more than 90% a question of the raw converter and the profiles even when a lot of photographers still don't belief it and repeat the mantra of the mf advantage endless. maybe you try a different converter for the sony ?

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    CSP, which MF cameras have you used?

    Mat

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    Shooting V-series blad and P45+ parallel with my Sony A7rII

    Hi,

    I was shooting both P45+ on Hasselblad and the Sony A7rII side by side today. The results are very close, I often mix up which is which, even at actual pixels. That said, I still enjoy shooting with both cameras. Sony is the electronic wizard still giving me full control. With the "Blad" I feel a bit more like shooting with an analogue camera.

    With the Sony I can do with two lenses, the 24-70/2.8 ZA and 70-400/4-5.6G. With the Hasselblad I have quite a few primes, 40/4, 60/3.5, 100/3.5, 120/4 and 180/4. Shooting with "Blad" is fun.

    What I see is that the images are incredibly close.

    Best regards
    Erik

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Erik

    Having used a Hasselblad V system with film for many many years, I don't see any relationship between it and more modern systems from a usability standpoint, the S and Z to some extent are effectively DSLR's with bigger sensors in them. I am obviously using my cameras differently to you but couldn't imagine using a V for anything beyond the narrow window where everything is conducive to getting a good shot. Sure there will be occasions where you have it focused, weather conditions are decent and the light plays to the sensors strengths but I honestly feel there is no comparison at all.

    You obviously enjoy the testing and comparisons, great that it gives you pleasure but if I was looking at a modern, mf body, knowing how a P45+ performs on a V system would have very little influence on any decision making, they are just entirely different things beyond the name mf.


    Mat

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    hcubell,

    I sense a disturbance in the force.
    The Dark Side, it is.

  35. #85
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    That is right, but I happen to be a landscape shooter. Always shooting on tripod and mostly using a 3X monocular for focusing. The Sony I shoot in the same way, except I use magnified live view for focusing. The Hasselblad I always use with mirror lockup. I don't think that shooting a Leica S, Pentax 645Z or Hasselblad H system would change my work flow, except perhaps regarding focusing, but I really in favour of magnified live view. That has been the main reason for most of my camera upgrades.

    I would say that I am pretty sure the Leica MF lenses are better than my Zeiss lenses of ancient design, but I still feel that my experience may be somewhat relevant to landscape shooters at least.

    What I see right now that the Sony and Hasselblad images are remarkably close. That is good news in the sense that I can go on travel with the smaller Sony kit without giving up image quality.

    Very clearly, my shooting is more about making images I like than caring about which equipment to shoot with. On the other hand, one of the main reasons I bought the Sony is that I can use it with T&S lenses from Canon. I also plan to use the Hasselblad lenses with a T&S adapter.

    Yes, another thing. Sharing experience is always good, dont't you think?

    Best regards
    Erik

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Erik

    Having used a Hasselblad V system with film for many many years, I don't see any relationship between it and more modern systems from a usability standpoint, the S and Z to some extent are effectively DSLR's with bigger sensors in them. I am obviously using my cameras differently to you but couldn't imagine using a V for anything beyond the narrow window where everything is conducive to getting a good shot. Sure there will be occasions where you have it focused, weather conditions are decent and the light plays to the sensors strengths but I honestly feel there is no comparison at all.

    You obviously enjoy the testing and comparisons, great that it gives you pleasure but if I was looking at a modern, mf body, knowing how a P45+ performs on a V system would have very little influence on any decision making, they are just entirely different things beyond the name mf.


    Mat

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    CSP, which MF cameras have you used?

    Mat
    hasselblad h3d
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Erik

    No offence intended but almost every post you make on here and LL is about equipment, performance, charts and the technical side of equipment and image production, it's very difficult having read your posts for years to consider that your focus is on producing images you like over the equipment you shoot! Obviously it doesn't matter what your motivation is as long as you enjoy it, it certainly doesn't matter to me.

    I know you prefer to shoot landscapes but my point was that the V is not the same image making machine, again it's obvious that landscape photography to one person is not the same as landscape photography to another but for me personally the best landscapes have drama and bad weather or strong winds or cold and snow, a lot of those situations I think the V is a very difficult camera to use where something like the S is not. I don't personally feel the H or Z are equal in that way, they are just too bulky. You may have a different view of what constitutes a good landscape photograph, nothing wrong with that of course, I'd be happy with a V again in the studio, I loved it for portraits and stuff just wouldn't really feel it was best suited to getting out in the wilds and shooting nice landscapes, not that it isn't possible, just that there are much better options.

    Sharing experiences is all relative, I find none of your experiences relevant to me but others will find them valuable, I much prefer sharing images and looking at images others share. I have said to you in the past to show more images, not because I feel you have anything to prove, just in the hope that you'd stop posting quite so many technical things! We all like different things and I can and do chose to ignore what I don't like so it's all good, that's how forums are.

    I hope you enjoy the Sony, I really do, it would be great to see how much you enjoy it by looking at beautiful images you make with it though.

    Have a good week!

    Mat



    Quote Originally Posted by ErikKaffehr View Post
    Hi,

    That is right, but I happen to be a landscape shooter. Always shooting on tripod and mostly using a 3X monocular for focusing. The Sony I shoot in the same way, except I use magnified live view for focusing. The Hasselblad I always use with mirror lockup. I don't think that shooting a Leica S, Pentax 645Z or Hasselblad H system would change my work flow, except perhaps regarding focusing, but I really in favour of magnified live view. That has been the main reason for most of my camera upgrades.

    I would say that I am pretty sure the Leica MF lenses are better than my Zeiss lenses of ancient design, but I still feel that my experience may be somewhat relevant to landscape shooters at least.

    What I see right now that the Sony and Hasselblad images are remarkably close. That is good news in the sense that I can go on travel with the smaller Sony kit without giving up image quality.

    Very clearly, my shooting is more about making images I like than caring about which equipment to shoot with. On the other hand, one of the main reasons I bought the Sony is that I can use it with T&S lenses from Canon. I also plan to use the Hasselblad lenses with a T&S adapter.

    Yes, another thing. Sharing experience is always good, dont't you think?

    Best regards
    Erik

    Best regards
    Erik
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Mat
    You make many good points. More specifically I had trouble with my P45+ (with SWC or 503CW) over a few years shooting landscapes. I did not buy it for studio and never realized how fidgety it could be outdoors. Yes, that was stupid of me. If it did not say battery low (fully charged) then it would say CF card full or none existent (when it was fresh or even new). Due to these problems it caused me to miss many crucial 1-2 minute intervals of sunrises or sunsets. After traveling up to 10 hours with plane & auto to get to a location and have that happen, I decided to part company once a friend of mine said that he shot in Hawaii with Micheal Reichmann and suggested I take a close look at the 645Z. This friend was heavily invested in his PO system, but admitted he would have gotten the 645Z too if not for that.

    A few months ago during monsoon season at the Grand Canyon during one sunrise a few of us were shooting in a sideways rain storm. One friend had my old P45+ setup and was cursing the system for its fragility. I was the only one who felt confident enough in my gear to let the rain pummel it without issue. Of course wiping the front filter kept me busy. I immediately realized this was the classic case of having the right gear for the right use. Even Canikon users were having fits with their gear getting wet. One guy had an A7R and like me he never complained and just carried on with creating images. We both looked at each and smiled.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Erik

    ................ it's obvious that landscape photography to one person is not the same as landscape photography to another but for me personally the best landscapes have drama and bad weather or strong winds or cold and snow, a lot of those situations I think the V is a very difficult camera to use where something like the S is not..............

    Mat
    Mat, I share your preferences for landscapes which is why I could not make much use of my Phase system. I would have loved to go the Leica S route, but having burnt myself badly with one very expensive MF system, I was very reluctant to repeat the same mistake. I did own two Leica M bodies and a few lenses (still have a couple left) and again, I found that it was not a good landscape tool (of course the S would be a different horse altogether).

    I am now quite happy with the 645Z and the A7RII. In fact the question I am beginning to ask myself is whether the Sony is good enough to replace the Pentax completely. It is not an easy answer, certainly the bulk and heft factor plays a role, but there are other things to consider, such as pixel size, cleaner images and the ability of the Z to really pull up the shadows. The one thing that may make me give up the Pentax is its poor performance with clipped highlights, it is very intolerant of overexposure and that is something I need to watch very carefully especially when the sun is anywhere in the image.

    I think many of us are reluctant to post our images on a forum, it took me a while and perhaps this is the only forum where I've done so without much worry. Over on another 'pro' forum, I did post a couple, but only when I was challenged and accused of being an ignorant and inexperienced noob. Some on this thread are quite aware of what I am talking about.

    The reason why many don't share images while some overload a thread is perhaps to do with confidence in your own work and anxiety over peer reviews. The well known names don't feel the need to justify themselves and so don't post images and the new guys are somewhat shy. It is easy to post images of a lens test done in the backyard to demonstrate a certain quality (or lack of). It is a completely different thing to 'show and tell' because that invites criticism of your work and ability as a photographer.

    Just for the record, I've always found Erik's comments and posts to be polite, precise and quite useful from a technical perspective - and not just on this forum. I would respect his decision to not post images and just accept or reject his conclusions about his gear. It is a free world.

    Just my 3 bits.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I am now quite happy with the 645Z and the A7RII. In fact the question I am beginning to ask myself is whether the Sony is good enough to replace the Pentax completely. It is not an easy answer, certainly the bulk and heft factor plays a role, but there are other things to consider, such as pixel size, cleaner images and the ability of the Z to really pull up the shadows. The one thing that may make me give up the Pentax is its poor performance with clipped highlights, it is very intolerant of overexposure and that is something I need to watch very carefully especially when the sun is anywhere in the image.
    Predeep

    You must be reading my mind except for the fact that I do not own a "new" 42MP Sony. I am wondering if for my street work the new RX1R2 could be a start just to see how the new sensor performs. Then again I could always use it beside my 645Z during landscape shooting. That is an impecable lens on the body so if anything it should show the best that new sensor can offer at 35mm FL. Then again I often collage images so that can alter my decision making. I just love how the 645Z gives such rich images even if the files get into the 2GB realm.

    I find I do not ETTR like I used to and often end up going out the the 3/4's line with my exposures just to be safe on the highlights. How ever when I get back home and look at them in LR I often realize I could have gone another stop to the right without problems. Of course time of day dictates many choices.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Pradeep

    Photography is in general a pleasurable experience, posting images is not for everyone and each should make their own decision regarding posting or not, overloading a thread or not based on what they feel comfortable with, I go through phases of posting but without doubt, it's on my own terms, I am comfortable with being the only person who likes what I shoot!

    Also, I agree with you, Erik is entitled to post whatever he wants whenever he wants, I have never suggested otherwise, my suggestions for him to post photographs are solely because to me they are much better than to look at than the incessant regurgitation of facts and figures, no reason whatsoever that he or anyone else should listen to me though, it doesn't matter one bit what I think!

    I think it's brilliant that you guys have found a camera system that brings you pleasure, no doubt the Z is a very capable system, I think half the battle is finding what works and allows you to just get on with creating images, it would be good to see what you produce but for no other reason than it's good to see people enjoy what they make and be proud of the results, impossible to be universally liked or accepted so f**k it!

    Mat
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    I have posted a few images shot with the A7rII using a Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII, they are here:

    http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/Ar...ots/Guillermo/

    Raw images are included.

    I am pretty pleased with the camera.

    I also have small write up on my experience here: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/in...-a7rii-journey

    Now, I may find that there is a lot of hype about the camera. Also, I does not work in my way in many senses. The best design camera from Sony in my humble opinion is the Alpha 99. But, I cannot put the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII on a Sony Alpha 99 :-)

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Predeep

    You must be reading my mind except for the fact that I do not own a "new" 42MP Sony. I am wondering if for my street work the new RX1R2 could be a start just to see how the new sensor performs. Then again I could always use it beside my 645Z during landscape shooting. That is an impecable lens on the body so if anything it should show the best that new sensor can offer at 35mm FL. Then again I often collage images so that can alter my decision making. I just love how the 645Z gives such rich images even if the files get into the 2GB realm.

    I find I do not ETTR like I used to and often end up going out the the 3/4's line with my exposures just to be safe on the highlights. How ever when I get back home and look at them in LR I often realize I could have gone another stop to the right without problems. Of course time of day dictates many choices.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Predeep


    I find I do not ETTR like I used to and often end up going out the the 3/4's line with my exposures just to be safe on the highlights. How ever when I get back home and look at them in LR I often realize I could have gone another stop to the right without problems. Of course time of day dictates many choices.
    I generally expose to how the photograph speaks to me whether that is massively underexposed or overexposed, ETTR I think is less relevant with such flexible files. I have never been keen on capturing each scene or subject to the cameras full potential and then adjusting in post, it just seems pointless to me, if I see a scene I know immediately how I want to present it and shoot accordingly. The Z can recover huge amount of details so preserve al those delicate highlights regardless of what the histogram looks like, I do exactly this with the S.

    Mat
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    I don't really have major problems with Hasselblad P45+ combo. It works for me and I enjoy the relatively slow workflow. What I lack mostly is live view which I feel is needed for accurate focus.

    I am pretty sure the Pentax 645Z is a great camera. It has a sensor similar to my Sony cameras but 70% larger in area, so I am pretty sure it is marginally better. Also Pentax cameras are known to be very weather tolerant.

    What I have seen so far is that if I shoot with my H-blad, P45+ combo and my Sony A7rII I get very similar results. The Sony A7rII is of course a very efficient shooting tool, but exactly that is the charm of of the Hasselblad. Find a vantage point, set up tripod, choose lens, compose and shoot a well exposed image. With the Hasselblad it is an effort. With the Sony it is a bit of anticlimax. I shoot one image, check histogram, if needed I shoot another one. After that it is done.

    Now, I am pretty sure I could replace the Sony with almost any MFD system. But, which MFD system gives me zooms from 12 to 400 mm? Which MFD system does give me Live View combined with almost 400 phase detect AF-points? With the Sony I have access to almost any lens ever made. Also lenses tend to be in the the 1-2k$ range, new generation MFD lenses may be 2-3 times that expensive. So, the Sony goes a long way regarding an affordable high performance system.

    But, I could also have gone with Canon or Nikon. Or, the Pentax 645Z. Going past the 645Z things start to be get quite expensive.

    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Mat
    You make many good points. More specifically I had trouble with my P45+ (with SWC or 503CW) over a few years shooting landscapes. I did not buy it for studio and never realized how fidgety it could be outdoors. Yes, that was stupid of me. If it did not say battery low (fully charged) then it would say CF card full or none existent (when it was fresh or even new). Due to these problems it caused me to miss many crucial 1-2 minute intervals of sunrises or sunsets. After traveling up to 10 hours with plane & auto to get to a location and have that happen, I decided to part company once a friend of mine said that he shot in Hawaii with Micheal Reichmann and suggested I take a close look at the 645Z. This friend was heavily invested in his PO system, but admitted he would have gotten the 645Z too if not for that.

    A few months ago during monsoon season at the Grand Canyon during one sunrise a few of us were shooting in a sideways rain storm. One friend had my old P45+ setup and was cursing the system for its fragility. I was the only one who felt confident enough in my gear to let the rain pummel it without issue. Of course wiping the front filter kept me busy. I immediately realized this was the classic case of having the right gear for the right use. Even Canikon users were having fits with their gear getting wet. One guy had an A7R and like me he never complained and just carried on with creating images. We both looked at each and smiled.

  45. #95
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi Matt (?),

    No offence, but I may explain a few things. To begin with I am no artist. I am an engineer who loves taking pictures. Back in 1972 I bought "Focal Encyclopaedia of Photography", and I have been deeply interested in the physics of photography since.

    One reason I don't post a lot of pictures is that I mostly post on threads like this one and I simply find web size images totally irrelevant in discussions on image quality. Any posting here or on LuLa has links to my homepage and gallery.

    Getting back to the A7rII, I had it for something like six weeks. Of those six weeks I have spent three on travel, shooting images. Some of those images are here and here.

    Best regards
    Erik





    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Erik

    No offence intended but almost every post you make on here and LL is about equipment, performance, charts and the technical side of equipment and image production, it's very difficult having read your posts for years to consider that your focus is on producing images you like over the equipment you shoot! Obviously it doesn't matter what your motivation is as long as you enjoy it, it certainly doesn't matter to me.

    I know you prefer to shoot landscapes but my point was that the V is not the same image making machine, again it's obvious that landscape photography to one person is not the same as landscape photography to another but for me personally the best landscapes have drama and bad weather or strong winds or cold and snow, a lot of those situations I think the V is a very difficult camera to use where something like the S is not. I don't personally feel the H or Z are equal in that way, they are just too bulky. You may have a different view of what constitutes a good landscape photograph, nothing wrong with that of course, I'd be happy with a V again in the studio, I loved it for portraits and stuff just wouldn't really feel it was best suited to getting out in the wilds and shooting nice landscapes, not that it isn't possible, just that there are much better options.

    Sharing experiences is all relative, I find none of your experiences relevant to me but others will find them valuable, I much prefer sharing images and looking at images others share. I have said to you in the past to show more images, not because I feel you have anything to prove, just in the hope that you'd stop posting quite so many technical things! We all like different things and I can and do chose to ignore what I don't like so it's all good, that's how forums are.

    I hope you enjoy the Sony, I really do, it would be great to see how much you enjoy it by looking at beautiful images you make with it though.

    Have a good week!

    Mat
    Last edited by ErikKaffehr; 19th October 2015 at 21:56.

  46. #96
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Pradeep

    Photography is in general a pleasurable experience, posting images is not for everyone and each should make their own decision regarding posting or not, overloading a thread or not based on what they feel comfortable with, I go through phases of posting but without doubt, it's on my own terms, I am comfortable with being the only person who likes what I shoot!

    Also, I agree with you, Erik is entitled to post whatever he wants whenever he wants, I have never suggested otherwise, my suggestions for him to post photographs are solely because to me they are much better than to look at than the incessant regurgitation of facts and figures, no reason whatsoever that he or anyone else should listen to me though, it doesn't matter one bit what I think!

    I think it's brilliant that you guys have found a camera system that brings you pleasure, no doubt the Z is a very capable system, I think half the battle is finding what works and allows you to just get on with creating images, it would be good to see what you produce but for no other reason than it's good to see people enjoy what they make and be proud of the results, impossible to be universally liked or accepted so f**k it!

    Mat
    I agree completely Mat, photography in general should be a pleasurable experience and it is for the most part, unless one is forced to make a living from it when like anything else it could become a chore. Since I am a rank amateur, it is always a pleasure for me to be out there making images and having fun.

    Having said that, there are those of us who don't earn a penny from it and still strive to get the best out of what's available, and like the home brewer who simply has to concoct the best tasting beer with the tools at his disposal, we are passionate about our own work, sometimes fanatically so. It is fortunate that in photography you can sometimes indulge and get yourself good equipment but the difficulty is that not being 'in the business' you may end up with something that is not quite the ticket. Which brings me back to this and similar threads, where I can rely on somebody else's expertise on choice of gear.

    And yes, nobody is here to live up to any expectations or to please anyone, but personally I still find myself reluctant to post images since I consider myself to not be 'in the same league' as many of you here. It is a humbling experience going through some of the work I see here and yet it is quite useful to do so - I am learning all the time, or at least I hope I am.
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  47. #97
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Predeep

    You must be reading my mind except for the fact that I do not own a "new" 42MP Sony. I am wondering if for my street work the new RX1R2 could be a start just to see how the new sensor performs. Then again I could always use it beside my 645Z during landscape shooting. That is an impecable lens on the body so if anything it should show the best that new sensor can offer at 35mm FL. Then again I often collage images so that can alter my decision making. I just love how the 645Z gives such rich images even if the files get into the 2GB realm.

    I find I do not ETTR like I used to and often end up going out the the 3/4's line with my exposures just to be safe on the highlights. How ever when I get back home and look at them in LR I often realize I could have gone another stop to the right without problems. Of course time of day dictates many choices.
    You know, the new RX1 sounds like a great camera even with the fixed lens. I don't do any street photography at all but I can see how this would be perfect for it since 35mm is said to be the ideal FL for the genre (or so I believe). As opposed to the Leica M, this would be an easier and ?smaller camera to have and use especially with such advanced AF. I don't know how much the lack of IBIS would detract, but then the Leicas don't have it either.

    With the Z, I do have to be careful of blowing the highlights and yes, spot metering is crucial in that regard. Otherwise, as you and I well know, the files are simply amazing.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    I generally expose to how the photograph speaks to me whether that is massively underexposed or overexposed, ETTR I think is less relevant with such flexible files. I have never been keen on capturing each scene or subject to the cameras full potential and then adjusting in post, it just seems pointless to me, if I see a scene I know immediately how I want to present it and shoot accordingly. The Z can recover huge amount of details so preserve al those delicate highlights regardless of what the histogram looks like, I do exactly this with the S.

    Mat
    Don't get me wrong, I shot what and when I like it and more often than not do not let the camera determine what I do since capturing the image is number one for me, ETTR way down the list. That being said as we all know if you want to "use" the DR one paid for then ETTR is the best way I know of to get that DR into my files. So when I first set up a scene, assuming plenty of time exists, I check the histogram and often use it to ETTR.

    You are right about the flexibility of the Z files. Nothing like I've ever seen before including S files I have shot.

  49. #99
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    A few comments based on my first hand experience, hopefully I will save you some money. I am sure everyone else's experience is stellar to date.

    I owned the S2 and 35/70/120/180 S lenses. I recently sold them all. In my experience, Leica QC is severely lacking with numerous AF failures for S lenses - I have first hand experience with this. Af on my 120 failed twice and it took Leica 5 months to repair it - feel free to PM me to see real examples of what happens when you need service on this premium camera system.

    There is a whole thread on the L forum on the AF failures with S lenses with several folks reporting the issue - do check out the photo of the flimsy $2 DC motor used for AF in that thread, it is an eye opener. My 180 which was working fine when I sold it, stopped working (failed AF) when the buyer received it. Major egg on my face.

    Apart from this, a few users are reporting issues with the S2 sensor. The bottom line is that at this price, things better be 100% PERFECT and they are not. I am sure S006 will exhibit issues in 2-3 years.

    Another things is that this kit is heavy, esp if you are travelling. I hike a lot (several miles with substantial elevation gain per day) and while folks here will tell you about carrying their S along with lenses all over the world, the reality is that unless you are built like Goliath, this can be impractical. So think about where you plan to deploy it.

    I would skip the S and stick to Sony A7 series or get the Pentax 645Z if you really want MF. Your A7 system with native lenses or Leica R lenses and several other adapted lenses will give you a far greater shooting envelope with much greater reliability. Digital Leicas are simply not going to be as reliable as the Japanese brands.

    If you own a studio or are a wedding photographer and want to differentiate (i.e. brag to clients on how expensive the camera system is), then Leica S may help

    While the OVF on the S2 is great, LV with magnification is the way to go IMHO.

    I am assuming that money is a consideration otherwise you probably wouldn't have asked - be aware that the market for S lenses is really down. If you ever want to sell, you will incur a substantial loss unless you get them at 50% off in the first instance.

    Other than all of the above, S is a really great system, esp if Leica can give a 10 year warranty.

    Good luck and your YMMV may vary etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB
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  50. #100
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Hi,

    Thanks for chiming in, your support is much appreciated. Some comments:

    The reason I bought the P45+/V-series combo was pretty much that I wanted to explore MF photography. At that time I also planned to buy a technical camera, with movements. I sort of even have it, as I had bought a Hasselblad Flexbody.

    There were many considerations for my choice, I did consider all of the Mamiya ZD, the original Pentax 645D and also some Hasselblad H models. One of the great attractions of the Hasselblad V was the availability of lenses at reasonable cost. I have been trough something nine lenses, sorting out what I needed. I ended up with 40/4, 60/3.5, 100/3.5, 120/4 (macro), 180/4 and 2X converter. I used to have a 50/4 and an 80/2.8 but I replaced them with the 65/3.5. I also had a Sonnar 150/4 I liked very much, but it has seen very little use as I almost always used the Planar 120/4 macro instead, 150 mm simply did not work for me, so I bought the 180/4.

    The main reason I don't post a lot of images is that I don't think web size images are relevant. Anyway here are a pair of images shot on this Sunday, admittedly in nice and pleasant sunny weather.

    What I see is that the Hasselblad and the Sony are quite close. Below is an actual 1:1 crop from both (P45+ on the left and Sony A7rII) on the right. :-) Click here for full size! Then click one more time on the image for full size. :-)


    In the final images both were stitched, the P45+ image is here:


    And the A7r image is here:


    In this case I would need to redo stitching, as Lightroom did not get it all right. But hopefully it is a nice illustration.

    Now, there can be a lot of nitpicking about say sharpening and other factors, but I feel that the images are very close. On the P45+ I used the Distagon 60/3.5 at f/8 and on the Sony A7rII I used the Sony 24-70/2.8 ZA at 45 mm and f/8. That lens performs remarkably well up to around 60 mm.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post

    I am now quite happy with the 645Z and the A7RII. In fact the question I am beginning to ask myself is whether the Sony is good enough to replace the Pentax completely. It is not an easy answer, certainly the bulk and heft factor plays a role, but there are other things to consider, such as pixel size, cleaner images and the ability of the Z to really pull up the shadows. The one thing that may make me give up the Pentax is its poor performance with clipped highlights, it is very intolerant of overexposure and that is something I need to watch very carefully especially when the sun is anywhere in the image.

    I think many of us are reluctant to post our images on a forum, it took me a while and perhaps this is the only forum where I've done so without much worry. Over on another 'pro' forum, I did post a couple, but only when I was challenged and accused of being an ignorant and inexperienced noob. Some on this thread are quite aware of what I am talking about.

    The reason why many don't share images while some overload a thread is perhaps to do with confidence in your own work and anxiety over peer reviews. The well known names don't feel the need to justify themselves and so don't post images and the new guys are somewhat shy. It is easy to post images of a lens test done in the backyard to demonstrate a certain quality (or lack of). It is a completely different thing to 'show and tell' because that invites criticism of your work and ability as a photographer.

    Just for the record, I've always found Erik's comments and posts to be polite, precise and quite useful from a technical perspective - and not just on this forum. I would respect his decision to not post images and just accept or reject his conclusions about his gear. It is a free world.

    Just my 3 bits.

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