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Thread: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB

    LouisB

    No contest ... if you want DR contrast and wonderful imaging the Leica will blow the Sony out of the water....

    I have had both the original S2-P and the S006 debated on the S007 but did not want to drop another 40K to get
    a working camera and lenses....

    However my D810 and OTUS compromise does not approach the level of the S ....

    And it will rival any Sony Play Camera....

    Check them out ....

    A demo is a must for this level but be forewarned .... once you play with one you will own it.

    Bob
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I say if you want to blow the S out of the water get a 645Z and a bundle of new designed lenses for way less than an S kit.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    you didn t think I would let this one go did you .

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I say if you want to blow the S out of the water get a 645Z and a bundle of new designed lenses for way less than an S kit.
    Roger Dunham
    http://rogerdunham.com/
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    of new designed lenses
    NEW DESIGNED LENSES ... right one of them may approach the S lens quality ... weather sealed perfect at widest aperture.

    Again maybe not....

    But such a bargain ....

    MF at Holga prices ....

    Sign me up.

    No ... think I will pass ...

    We tend to justify our purchases without any scientific or aesthetic reality to back up our subjective choices.

    Might be better if we call it as it is ... a choice that works for us ... whether the reality substantiates our bias.

    Bob
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Between the S-E and the A7RII you will get better lenses and a better viewfinder. You will lose stabilisation and some low light abilities. And 4K video, of course.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    One look through the viewfinder of the Leica S will change your view of 35mm digital cameras, especially ones with EVF's.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    I have had both the original S2-P and the S006 debated on the S007 but did not want to drop another 40K to get
    a working camera and lenses....
    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I say if you want to blow the S out of the water get a 645Z and a bundle of new designed lenses for way less than an S kit.
    There are many that offer a "working camera" for far less.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Having used all of these cameras except for the A7RII and S007, I would say that I'd sooner get a 645Z than the S-E, assuming the latter's sensor performs about the same as the S006/645D's.

    The D and S had a really nice look to them, but they didn't really escape from the problem that plagued my Canon 5D2, in that they just had too much noise if you either pushed the exposure or shot at higher ISOs. The noise was better behaved though, more like monochromatic grain. They also looked a heck of a lot better overall if you simply nailed exposure in-camera and didn't do nasty things in post.

    The Z is a whole other box of chocolates though, I haven't had a good reason to shoot HDR since getting it. If the S007 has similar dynamic range and you can afford a set of S lenses, then I would place it on par with the Z, just because you have a wider selection of truly excellent glass. The Z only has the 28-45mm, 90mm and 120mm as the "killer" lineup, whereas just about any of the S lenses will give you an optimal result. On the other hand, you do pay a lot more for a camera body that has fewer essential features, like a tilt-screen.

    So, in my opinion, if you shoot in the studio or otherwise are able to reliably nail exposure in camera and don't want to rely on highlight/shadow recovery, the CCD-based cameras are perfectly fine.
    If you shoot in unpredictable situations and want to leave room for error, or just want to optimize your ability to shoot landscapes and architecture without leaning on post-production crutches, then any of the CMOS cameras are far superior. At f/11 any of the MF lenses will look great.

    Having used only the A7r first version, my beef with it actually had nothing to do with imaging performance but with handling and the viewfinder, which is sub-par to any of these other cameras. I may give the mkII version a spin, a friend of mine bought one along with the FE35/1.4, and I'll be visiting him in the near future.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    graham...you looking at an S?
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by glenerrolrd View Post
    you didn t think I would let this one go did you .
    And here I thought you might be sleeping. Check your msgs.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Sony has 90mm macro that will kill any leica lens

    Dxo rated it as no 1 i think.

    not sure compare to the new 120 macro blue ring

    In the end it is about technology. Sony was the first to prove that CMOS can be as good as CCD with the alpha and next lines. IQ 250 uses sony sensor. So Sony is the best sensor maker now. Im sure the new back will use CMOS in the future.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    There are many that offer a "working camera" for far less.
    Camera yes lenses no so much ...

    Bob
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    Senior Member biglouis's Avatar
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Thanks for all the responses.

    As per the comment above I need to go down to a dealer and at least hold and test one in the flesh.

    I do agree with one point above which is the new Sony 90/2.8 is a drop-dead outstanding lens.

    My head says stay with the Sony platform as I already have a significant investment. My heart says you'll always wonder if you don't try MF digital.

    Noted about the 645Z. I should also check that out.

    Thanks again for all the advice/responses.

    LouisB
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    graham...you looking at an S?
    I've used the S before and liked it a lot. I'm too invested in Phase One alas to make that change. My Phase Backs are reusable on the technical cameras and the DF+ (maybe XF soon). If I could, I'd definitely have an S instead of my Phase One DSLRs. The Leica S lenses I used were wonderful.

    As a DSLR platform the Leica just exudes quality and I completely understand why those who shoot them just love the platform.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    what's the diff among the various S bodies?

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I do agree with one point above which is the new Sony 90/2.8 is a drop-dead outstanding lens.
    In my experience with the H platform, drop-dead outstanding lenses are the norm, while in 24x36 lens they are the exception. I don't expect the lenses Leica designed for the S platform to be any worse than the Hasselblad lenses and if needs be you there is an adapter for them on the S platform.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Sony has 90mm macro that will kill any leica lens

    Dxo rated it as no 1 i think.
    For now... DxO is getting ready for a huge info dump on the 645Z and various Pentax lenses, they've already added the Z to OpticsPro 10, so stay tuned, there just might be another 90mm 2.8 that wants that title.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    what's the diff among the various S bodies?
    S2/S2P - Original model, ISO range of 160~1250 and missing many features the new cameras have, just holding one felt like a step back from the S 006. S2P had a tougher LCD plate and premium warranty.

    S 006 - The second model, it has a much larger buffer, expanded ISO of 100~1600, joystick, GPS, faster AF, and a whole bunch of other features that make it just plain better than the S2.

    S-E - Rebranded S 006 with a different-colored top plate and basic warranty... I wonder if these are refurb 006's? Functionally, it is 100% identical.

    S 007 - The first CMOS "S" camera, physical features from the 006 are largely identical minus minor cosmetic and functional changes, such as a different more robust LCD, unmarked top dial, no more GPS "hump", and an updated UI. Under the hood you of course gain Live View and video, wi-fi connectivity, and all the benefits CMOS brings with it; such as clean high-ISO, deep shadow recovery, and so on.

    Besides that, they all have the same 30x45mm sensor size and 37.5MP resolution.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Remember PentaxZ has a 4/3 format 33 x 44 size sensor. You probably got used to the 3/2 format.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Michiel Schierbeek View Post
    Remember PentaxZ has a 4/3 format 33 x 44 size sensor. You probably got used to the 3/2 format.
    That is what many like about the Z. See MR Lula article Sept 2014.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Camera yes lenses no so much ...

    Bob
    Isn't that the current story of Leica?

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    can canon T/SE lenses be fitted to the Leica?

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    can canon T/SE lenses be fitted to the Leica?
    Not even Leica R lenses can be fitted to achieve infinity focus on the S (hence it was not the promised "solution").

    http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~wes...-register.html

    Leica S camera registry = 50mm

    Canon EOS = 44mm

    Oddly, in principle, it is possible to fit Tamron adaptall lenses.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Vivek View Post
    Not even Leica R lenses can be fitted to achieve infinity focus on the S
    The longer lenses (280mm+) can be adapted at Solms/Wetzlar to work with S/LeiKo at infinity. I have had the APO Telyt Modular 1.4x focussing unit adapter modified to work with the S at infinity with both heads, I will get my 2x sent off sometime...

    john
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    Thanks for all the responses.

    As per the comment above I need to go down to a dealer and at least hold and test one in the flesh.

    I do agree with one point above which is the new Sony 90/2.8 is a drop-dead outstanding lens.

    My head says stay with the Sony platform as I already have a significant investment. My heart says you'll always wonder if you don't try MF digital.

    Noted about the 645Z. I should also check that out.

    Thanks again for all the advice/responses.

    LouisB
    Louis,I would buy into the S system and built up your lens collection over time,you have AF and leaf shutters and in a couple of yrs even the 007 will be affordable as tech moves forward.

    The S can also use Hasselblad,Contax and Pentax glass.

    Rob
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    For now... DxO is getting ready for a huge info dump on the 645Z and various Pentax lenses, they've already added the Z to OpticsPro 10, so stay tuned, there just might be another 90mm 2.8 that wants that title.


    S2/S2P - Original model, ISO range of 160~1250 and missing many features the new cameras have, just holding one felt like a step back from the S 006. S2P had a tougher LCD plate and premium warranty.

    S 006 - The second model, it has a much larger buffer, expanded ISO of 100~1600, joystick, GPS, faster AF, and a whole bunch of other features that make it just plain better than the S2.

    S-E - Rebranded S 006 with a different-colored top plate and basic warranty... I wonder if these are refurb 006's? Functionally, it is 100% identical.

    S 007 - The first CMOS "S" camera, physical features from the 006 are largely identical minus minor cosmetic and functional changes, such as a different more robust LCD, unmarked top dial, no more GPS "hump", and an updated UI. Under the hood you of course gain Live View and video, wi-fi connectivity, and all the benefits CMOS brings with it; such as clean high-ISO, deep shadow recovery, and so on.

    Besides that, they all have the same 30x45mm sensor size and 37.5MP resolution.
    One major bonus of the 007 (at least for some people) is the 3.5 fps!
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    ...
    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB
    As a user of those systems (a7ii, S 006 and some other stuff) here is my opinion:
    I see 2 areas where the S excels:
    -transition from focused subject to background very smooth, no so abrupt like from smaller formats.
    -very good midtones
    I also prefer the colors, specially skin looks more natural for my taste.
    My feeling is I gain more going from A7II or Leica M to Leica S than going from dx to FF.

    I dont know how much of the difference is caused by sensor type, sensor format, and how much by lenses.

    I also love a big optical viewfinder.

    The area where the A7II excels is that it is much smaller, less obtrusive and faster to focus and shoot.
    I think the best thing would be to check it out for some days and make your own opinion.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    LouisB
    Hi Louis,

    There is a difference in dynamic range and noise between the same amount of pixels on a MF size sensor and the same amount of pixels on a FF 35mm (36x24mm) sensor. Remember back in the film days when we could see the graduation of colors better on MF film vs 35mm film? The physical size of the sensor matters. When I used my Sony NEX-7 for the first time, I was taken back by the noise. I immediately saw what happens when a lot of pixels are crammed into a physically small sensor.

    Even though I have never shot with a Leica S camera, I would see an immediate difference between the Leica S files and FF 35mm files. I currently shoot with two different MF backs and do so because of the quality and the ability to shoot with the glass I prefer.

    Kind regards,
    Darr
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    The S-E looks great value until you try to build a system....

    All the points raise above are great, but the sensor in the 645Z is truly astounding, with both more resolution than that in the S and bucket loads more dynamic range. It seems that the Z's files are almost impossible to 'break' in post processing.

    Regarding lenses, clearly the S line up is more fleshed out, but it depends on what you need. I have the 28-45 (amazing lens), 75mm FA (stopped down, it is phenomenal i.e. for landscape use - perfect at f8 and beyond), 120, 80-160 and 200. Aside from the 28-45 they were very cheap and perform brilliantly. Personally, whenever I used the 75mm for landscapes, it amazes me and I cannot imagine wanting to spent many (ten?) times as much on a Leica optic, but that is because I do not need peerless performance at wide apertures. For this reason, I also have no reason to fork out for the Pentax 90mm Macro.

    I also love a lot about the Z in terms of its functionality. Its pretty well perfect if you ask me. I would, however, likely prefer the S for handheld and studio use where a small selection of lenses might suit, and lighting is controlled.

    For landscape shooters, I think the Z would be the way to go. The dynamic range is in a different league to any CCD camera.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    The S has an optical viewfinder Louis!

    In my opinion, shooting an S is different, if you try to process the files the same way as the A7r2 etc. then you will be disappointed, and I think missing something very special from the S. The files are deep and rich, I have never understood the need to push shadows massively, it may produce more details but at the cost of tone and depth. I often darken the shadows with the S, it gives huge depth and if you look beyond what is possible to get from a file and look instead at what makes a beautiful file full of richness and a 3d feel then the S is unbeatable with the glass available.

    Remember that legacy glass on any camera is the same with the S, a body, contax adapter for example with a range of glass for very little money will give an excellent kit with af, metering and all you want, the contax glass is great too, pentax hasselblad v and H too, there are lots of options beyond buying new glass at list price from Leica dealers. I picked up an excellent 35mm and 180mm second hand for less than 2k each, they are stunning lenses! A good dealer also helps, I never pay list for anything. The Sony 90mm may be great at what DXO measure but there is much more to a lens than those parameters, the S glass is incredibly sharp but in combination with the sensor just produce stunning images, the added bonus being that they do exactly the same in all available focal lengths, not just one.

    I now have the S 006 and the S 007, the 007 is just superb but expensive because it's new, the 006 has lost nothing from its beautiful files at lower ISO's, I just swap to the 007 as it gets darker.

    Ultimately it depends what you want, form factor, simplicity of control etc. are way above the Z, the Z files have more DR than the S 006/SE for sure but for walking around, I'd never use the Z over the S, personal preference. I had Z owners on workshops last year, I loved handing the S over for them to have a look at, just see their faces light up when they hold it! But of course output is the most important thing, if you can take a well exposed photograph then the S is brilliant, post processing time is minimal. You may have the ability to recover a huge amount of detail with the sony and z cmos sensors but not necessary if you expose right.

    When you have a hold of the different cameras then you will instinctively know what is right for you, if bad pictures come out of any of these cameras then it's pretty hard to blame the camera!

    Enjoy whatever you choose.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Mat, at base iso, which output do you prefer, the S006 or S007 ?
    I'm a bit concerned that the new CMOS, large DR new sensor lost the character (or a bit of) compared to the S006.
    Would be great to have your feedback on that.

    ps: now that Lightroom officially supports the S007 with its own profile I think it's a good time to assess the (not overall) base iso IQ of the new S007. If there's an IQ trade off (like less natural transitions, 3D effects, vivid colors) compared to the S2/S006 then I won't upgrade.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Paratom View Post
    As a user of those systems (a7ii, S 006 and some other stuff) here is my opinion:
    I see 2 areas where the S excels:
    -transition from focused subject to background very smooth, no so abrupt like from smaller formats.
    -very good midtones
    I also prefer the colors, specially skin looks more natural for my taste.
    My feeling is I gain more going from A7II or Leica M to Leica S than going from dx to FF.

    I dont know how much of the difference is caused by sensor type, sensor format, and how much by lenses.
    The first point is actually a "feature" of medium format in general, the larger in format you go, the more gradual the transition from in-focus to out-of-focus becomes.

    Compared to something like the 85L or 135L on my Canon system, the absolute level of blur I get from the 150/2.8 on the Pentax seems about the same, but even looking at thumbnails, you can tell that the Canon lenses chop the image up like razor blades, while its not totally apparent that something isn't in focus in the Pentax shots.
    In a portrait you can get only the eyes in focus on both, but step back and the Pentax shots make it seem like the whole face is decently sharp.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Mat, at base iso, which output do you prefer, the S006 or S007 ?
    I'm a bit concerned that the new CMOS, large DR new sensor lost the character (or a bit of) compared to the S006.
    Would be great to have your feedback on that.

    ps: now that Lightroom officially supports the S007 with its own profile I think it's a good time to assess the (not overall) base iso IQ of the new S007. If there's an IQ trade off (like less natural transitions, 3D effects, vivid colors) compared to the S2/S006 then I won't upgrade.
    I've not yet had a serious look at it, only downloaded the update yesterday. A few observations though, adobe standard profile is rubbish compared with imbedded, it's really "thin" colour wise and takes a lot more processing, embedded is really nice so I have taken to using that but will see what the update does on base ISO files today. My feeling is that there was a little difference between the 2 cameras before the update but only side by side, in isolation you couldn't see any marked difference. If you shoot inside or lower light though the 007 is absolutely brilliant, the files are just wonderful at ISO 800.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    The first point is actually a "feature" of medium format in general, the larger in format you go, the more gradual the transition from in-focus to out-of-focus becomes.
    Let me post two samples:



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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Let me post two samples:



    I vote for the top one

    Phil

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    I'd be interested to hear whether there are big differences between the 6 & 7 too (harks back to the M9 vs M240 debate, doesn't it). I also wonder, whether give time, the consensus will be that the 7 has enough advantages to outweigh any small nuances that some like about the 6.

    My (personal) view on the CMOS vs. CCD issue is that character differences absolutely pale compared to the person's skill in PP. The latter will make a difference to how the images are really appreciated, but the former will not. Huge DR, however, is actually very useful and can make an enormous difference on where you can take an image shot under very demanding lighting conditions.

    Not everyone shoots the same and I respect that, but when I look over a lot of my old B&W film work, I would have had to throw half of it out had it been shot on a CCD with 11-12 stops of DR. I would not have stood a chance. But now that we are in the 14-15 stops realm, with huge quality gains in shadow recovery, I have been able to go back to shooting the images that I see and enjoy. Then again, slide film was never my thing! I can see that someone used to shooting colour under gentler lighting conditions would find the S a beautiful solution.

    FWIW, I do not find the handling of the 645Z to be bad. I know people rave about the lovely S and it does look svelte and gorgeous, but seriously, the 645Z is one of the best handling cameras I have ever used. Its an absolute joy to shoot hand held, altho it gets heavy with the massive 28-45.Weight aside, its one heck of a machine than shows just how well a tool can be designed with the user in mind.



    Quote Originally Posted by anGy View Post
    Mat, at base iso, which output do you prefer, the S006 or S007 ?
    I'm a bit concerned that the new CMOS, large DR new sensor lost the character (or a bit of) compared to the S006.
    Would be great to have your feedback on that.

    ps: now that Lightroom officially supports the S007 with its own profile I think it's a good time to assess the (not overall) base iso IQ of the new S007. If there's an IQ trade off (like less natural transitions, 3D effects, vivid colors) compared to the S2/S006 then I won't upgrade.
    Last edited by turtle; 11th October 2015 at 04:49.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Let me post two samples:
    Hmm... what exactly is being compared here? The focal length and exposure between the two is too different for me to pick out just one thing that's different.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Hmm... what exactly is being compared here? The focal length and exposure between the two is too different for me to pick out just one thing that's different.
    Thank you for your answer.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Thank you for your answer.
    I'd run my own comparison between the 85L and the 150/2.8 if I still had the former lens with me, but unfortunately, the only two similar shots I have with each one at wide open aperture were taken 6 years apart!


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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    I'd run my own comparison between the 85L and the 150/2.8 if I still had the former lens with me, but unfortunately, the only two similar shots I have with each one at wide open aperture were taken 6 years apart!

    And we can see that the transition from in-focus to out-of-focus is more gradual in the picture taken with the larger format camera.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by turtle View Post

    FWIW, I do not find the handling of the 645Z to be bad. I know people rave about the lovely S and it does look svelte and gorgeous, but seriously, the 645Z is one of the best handling cameras I have ever used. Its an absolute joy to shoot hand held, altho it gets heavy with the massive 28-45.Weight aside, its one heck of a machine than shows just how well a tool can be designed with the user in mind.
    Suggest someone rent or borrow each camera. I did a 2 hour shoot with the S. AND I have walked around for street shooting with the Z for 4-5 hours on more than one occasion.

    My reaction-after 2 hours with the S, my wrist hurt like heck. After 4 hours with the Z and heavy 28-45 lens, my wrist was just fine.

    For me, I find the Z just fine for walking around. I cannot say I find the S best suited for that type of work.

    Perhaps it has been done, but also suggest one read MR's Lula reviews of each camera, if his comments help (Z-Sept 2014, S-October 2015) There are few cameras Reichmann has not handled and his insights leave much food for thought.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    Suggest someone rent or borrow each camera. I did a 2 hour shoot with the S. AND I have walked around for street shooting with the Z for 4-5 hours on more than one occasion.

    My reaction-after 2 hours with the S, my wrist hurt like heck. After 4 hours with the Z and heavy 28-45 lens, my wrist was just fine.

    For me, I find the Z just fine for walking around. I cannot say I find the S best suited for that type of work.
    Which lens did you have on the S? I didn't have any problems with its grip, but it did have the tendency to be front-heavy with certain lenses, and I didn't even get to use the zoom, which is said to be particularly front-heavy.

    The beefiest lens I have is the 120mm Macro, and it doesn't feel at all unbalanced either, but that's probably due to the shape of the camera in general. The blocky shape lets you brace the camera quite effectively with your left hand.

    I think the S would be more comfortable to hold longer if you had put the vertical grip on it; I had the same problem with the 85L on my Canon 5D2, and a grip immediately fixed the handling, it's like night and day for big >750g Lenses.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Surely you have stronger wrists than that Algrove?!

    It's all personal preference, nothing more. This is the key thing for me when comparing sizes..

    Compare camera dimensions side by side overhead view is telling.

    I found the Z just to be too bulky, there's no getting away from the fact that any MF camera is larger and heavier but most would be surprised at how compact the S is for what you get. I can't help but think Pentax would have been better designing a more modern body but it was built to a budget to use existing kit, for me it shows.

    For some the masses of individual controls are a benefit, for others, there's nothing more needed than ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed, horses for courses.

    As I said before, it's very hard not to get superb pictures from either these cameras, or the H and the P1 too, no right answer when it comes to personal preference.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by Kolor-Pikker View Post
    Which lens did you have on the S? I didn't have any problems with its grip, but it did have the tendency to be front-heavy with certain lenses, and I didn't even get to use the zoom, which is said to be particularly front-heavy.

    The beefiest lens I have is the 120mm Macro, and it doesn't feel at all unbalanced either, but that's probably due to the shape of the camera in general. The blocky shape lets you brace the camera quite effectively with your left hand.

    I think the S would be more comfortable to hold longer if you had put the vertical grip on it; I had the same problem with the 85L on my Canon 5D2, and a grip immediately fixed the handling, it's like night and day for big >750g Lenses.
    I used 2 lenses-the 120 and the 30-90. Have no idea of the S weight with either lens, but I do know the 645Z with 28-45 is 6 lbs. The nice thing about that 28-45 is that you zoom with the forward most ring so the balance while using hand held is right for me.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by mjr View Post
    Surely you have stronger wrists than that Algrove?!

    It's all personal preference, nothing more. This is the key thing for me when comparing sizes..

    Compare camera dimensions side by side overhead view is telling.

    I found the Z just to be too bulky, there's no getting away from the fact that any MF camera is larger and heavier but most would be surprised at how compact the S is for what you get. I can't help but think Pentax would have been better designing a more modern body but it was built to a budget to use existing kit, for me it shows.

    For some the masses of individual controls are a benefit, for others, there's nothing more needed than ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed, horses for courses.

    As I said before, it's very hard not to get superb pictures from either these cameras, or the H and the P1 too, no right answer when it comes to personal preference.
    My wife handled the 645Z but just one time and her comment was that it was a very nice and natural feel for her petit hand. I was shocked by her comment since has held my M cameras, 5D3, Sony a7R, etc. She has never said that about any camera before.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by algrove View Post
    I used 2 lenses-the 120 and the 30-90. Have no idea of the S weight with either lens, but I do know the 645Z with 28-45 is 6 lbs. The nice thing about that 28-45 is that you zoom with the forward most ring so the balance while using hand held is right for me.
    Ah, well that figures, the 120 and 30-90 are the most front-heavy lenses in the entire lineup.

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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    The Pentax 645Z was not even mentioned in Louis's question, but since people brought the camera up; i recently bought one and I quiet like it.
    I can not emphasize enough, the sensor is great. One of the most important points for me.
    It may not look so slick, the camera handles very well, the grip is perfect for my hands and the extra portrait tripod connection is very handy.
    The info button is great for another way of direct access to different settings.
    There are many buttons, but most of them are quiet handy and if i don't need them i just leave them alone.
    It may be a design compromise but I don't really care.
    The lenses are not Leica lenses but the new ones are also outstanding, although steep in price as well.
    The older lenses are actually also good and dead cheap, you can get the good FA 75 for less then 400,-- , I like that! ( I missed one for 150,-)
    The lens is very good and smaller then a lot of lenses an my A7r, so are the A 150, the A35 and; the newer standard SDM 55.
    With this set you can walk around for hours if you want.
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by biglouis View Post
    I would welcome some advice from members of the forum.

    Until a couple of years ago I was shooting a lot of MF film but I reluctantly decided I wouldn't invest any more money in it as the cost and more importantly the scarcity of scanners was a concern.

    I never thought I would be able to go MF digital but I've noticed that Leica is running a promotion for the Leica S-E and Summarit 70/2.5 for GBP 7,999. And there is even a store in the UK with a demonstrator S2+70/2.5 for a little less.

    In the meantime I have built a system around the A7 series.

    My question is: has the shipped sailed and is there really no point in a 37.5mpx MF sensor versus albeit a smaller 36pmx or even 42mpx sensor in the latest A7RII.

    I've always been a bit confused about the sensor densities - is a 35mm 36mpx sensor actually going to yield a different level of detail than a 37.5mpx MF sensor?

    Apologies if this is an old topic but I'd welcome some clarity.

    LouisB
    I'll say up front that I've become biased toward the S system. At first I shot with an S2P in tandem with a Hasselblad H kit eventually opting out of the H system. Recently I've sold off my entire Sony A99 SLT-DSLR kit because I stopped using it while favoring the S. By then I had fleshed out the S lenses with mostly CS versions which gave me full access to both Focal Plane shutter to 1/4000 and leaf shutter sync to 1/1000 with lighting even in tandem with the SF58 on-camera speed-light for fill.

    I have a Sony A7R with 36 meg and agree with others that there is no contest. Lenses are a matter of taste I guess. I was going to order the Sony 90/2.8 Macro, but the images I saw persuaded me otherwise. I'm waiting to see how the Batis 85/1.8 Images look. That, or I'll just opt out of the Sony stuff altogether since it hasn't fit my needs or tastes. Other than size, I don't like the cameras, the viewfinders, the controls or the overly complex menus, and am ambivalent about the images.

    I simply love the ergonomics and controls of the S which are simple and straightforward. The optical viewfinder is extremely bright aided by the fact that most S lenses are fast aperture for MF optics. The camera is not tiny but I've mitigated that by using a Camadapter dual lug ARCA type QR that allows use of both a hand strap and a wide soft shoulder strap together. This has made carrying the S very easy, and reduced fatigue to minimalist levels.

    I currently have the S(006) which I'm trying to keep even though I've a S(007) on order to arrive soon. I'm a believer that extra real-estate matters and has an effect on the images in both profound ways and more subtile ways.

    The Leica S lenses are spectacular plus there are some interesting Zeiss choices from the Contax 645 system, or the Hasselblad H system that can be adapted to the S cameras with fully functioning adapters including AF.

    - Marc
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    @ Marc & Bob:

    Can you show 1:1 comparison pictures Leica S vs. Nikon D810 or Sony A7R/RII to proove your statements that the Leica system can achieve significantly better image quality than the Nikon/Sony cameras with lenses at Otus/Batis/ZE135Apo level? Hard to believe for me.

    Thx Christoph
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    Re: Leica S-E versus Sony A7R, or even A7RII

    Quote Originally Posted by chrismuc View Post
    @ Marc & Bob:

    Can you show 1:1 comparison pictures Leica S vs. Nikon D810 or Sony A7R/RII to proove your statements that the Leica system can achieve significantly better image quality than the Nikon/Sony cameras with lenses at Otus/Batis/ZE135Apo level? Hard to believe for me.

    Thx Christoph

    The problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges. Yes, the D810 or A7RII can achieve similar IQ on test charts than the Leica S or other MF cameras in controlled conditions, when using select lenses. I don't doubt that, I compared similar cameras some time ago.

    But what this test is not saying is that the MF camera, about any MF camera, will do that consistently on any subject (if there is enough light, that is a real limitation of MF cameras) and with the complete series of lenses available.

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