SK 35&55mm/IQ180 vs Pentax 28-45mm/645Z test and A7RII 90mm macro..Must Read!

[gerald.d]

I doubt very much Phase or anyone else will be coming up with a FF 645 CMOS sensor. It will not offer that much more quality than the cropped sensors in the Pentax, Hassy and Phase backs and will probably cost too much to make. The profits realized would be minimal and if I was the CEO of any of these companies I would not invest in such a venture.

I'm not sure if your seen any Phase marketing material since the IQ3 was launched, but it's patently obvious it's coming.

Why else do you think they'd put on the front page words to the effect of "ready for >100MP"?

Or even more obviously, what do you think could have possibly motivated the change in the naming structure of the backs.

There is a reason why it's called the IQ3 80, and not the IQ380.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

 

[Ken_R]

The IQ180 works much better than the 645Z with tech camera lenses.

 

[tjv]

My Credo 60 is in V mount, but I don't own an SLR, only a Linhof Techno and tech lenses. I was thinking about getting the mount changed to H mount at some stage so I can at least use it with AF and chop and change bodies when the job calls for that kind of workflow. I guess the question now is do I bother when the Pentax setup would be overall cheaper and give a backup sensor integrated into the body, not to mention water proofing. It's obviously a great camera and the price is right. I do love my Credo though, and wouldn't trade it for the world! (Ok, that's an exageration, I'd gladly swap it for an IQ3 80!)

I think in many ways Phase and Hassey would be well served to develop a selection of high grade tilt / shift lenses to fit on their respective SLR bodies. Hassey is way ahead in that regard, with the HTS, but at 1.5x crop and a loss of light. With CMOS live view and focusing, the HTS works suprisingly well, but I'd still like to see 28 or 35mm and 70mm true tilt / shift options. Perhaps Phase's collaboration with Schneider might lead to them making use of their knowledge in this respect? Do Pentax still have any TS lenses in production? If so, how do they hold up? I ask all this because for my work I can't give up movements and imagine having a fully waterproof TS setup!

 

[torger]

I just got informed that the A7r-II is the first full-frame camera with BSI sensor, that is with the photodiodes at the surface rather than in deep "wells". In theory this should reduce the crosstalk and color cast issues as seen on tech wides a lot. Microlens design and other factors I don't know about could still mess it up though I suppose, but anyway I'm super-curious to know how the A7r-II works together with a Schneider Digitar 35mm tech lens for example. The old A7r did not works so well with it due to crosstalk.

If the A7r-II works great on that, it's fantastic news for us tech cam lovers because I think BSI will come to a Sony MFD-sized sensor sooner rather than later. The my current strategy to cling to a Kodak CCD while waiting for CMOS to become useful for my wide Digitars may actually be successful :grin:

 

[jagsiva]

I just got informed that the A7r-II is the first full-frame camera with BSI sensor, that is with the photodiodes at the surface rather than in deep "wells". In theory this should reduce the crosstalk and color cast issues as seen on tech wides a lot. Microlens design and other factors I don't know about could still mess it up though I suppose, but anyway I'm super-curious to know how the A7r-II works together with a Schneider Digitar 35mm tech lens for example. The old A7r did not works so well with it due to crosstalk.

If the A7r-II works great on that, it's fantastic news for us tech cam lovers because I think BSI will come to a Sony MFD-sized sensor sooner rather than later. The my current strategy to cling to a Kodak CCD while waiting for CMOS to become useful for my wide Digitars may actually be successful :grin:

Anders, not so sure. Leica wides seem to have a marginal improvement, but not by much with the A7RII/BSI. I have not seen any samples with the lenses, but would be great if someone can try the A7RII with tech lenses.

If you're not looking for tech lenses, I'd say the 645Z + 28-40 is hard to beat.

 

[Pradeep]

I'm not sure if your seen any Phase marketing material since the IQ3 was launched, but it's patently obvious it's coming.

Why else do you think they'd put on the front page words to the effect of "ready for >100MP"?

Or even more obviously, what do you think could have possibly motivated the change in the naming structure of the backs.

There is a reason why it's called the IQ3 80, and not the IQ380.

Kind regards,


Gerald.

You probably are better informed than me. I am simply making an assumption based on what I as a buyer with the means but not necessarily the inclination to spend that kind of money would want in return.

From the conversation I had with my Phase One dealer six months ago, it seemed that a FF CMOS version was 'not on the cards' yet. It is entirely possible that the next sensor may indeed be 100MP, but still cropped! If the 35mm sensor can be stuffed with 50MP, why not 100MP for the cropped MF? After all, who would have thought even 5-7 yrs ago that 50MP on a 35mm was possible?

If the current pricing structure is anything to go by, if a FF 100mp from Phase did materialize say in late 2016 or 2017 for $40K, and meanwhile Pentax were selling their new 80MP cropped MF camera for $8K it would be a truly committed person who would want to keep spending that kind of money for essentially a limited advantage in quality.

I think we are again ignoring the final resting place of an image which will usually be as a print somewhere. I am not sure a 100MP FF 645 sensor can deliver the kind of image that when printed at 24X36 is easily distinguishable from that produced by a 60-80MP cropped 645 sensor.

On the other hand, maybe the CEO of these companies think that there are enough customers ready to pay a premium for a bigger sensor to justify these costs.

True, there do seem to be people willing to pay that much and I may well be wrong, but something tells me they would be making a mistake thinking there is still a large market for their products if they continue to sell them at that price.

Regards,

Pradeep

 

[dchew]

Anders,
Like Jagsiva said, it's not much of an improvement. But Sony's problem is the thick cover glass. So I think a BSI sensor with smart micro lens design and a cover glass as thin as possible would be the ticket to me ever considering an upgrade.

Dave

I just got informed that the A7r-II is the first full-frame camera with BSI sensor, that is with the photodiodes at the surface rather than in deep "wells". In theory this should reduce the crosstalk and color cast issues as seen on tech wides a lot. Microlens design and other factors I don't know about could still mess it up though I suppose, but anyway I'm super-curious to know how the A7r-II works together with a Schneider Digitar 35mm tech lens for example. The old A7r did not works so well with it due to crosstalk.

If the A7r-II works great on that, it's fantastic news for us tech cam lovers because I think BSI will come to a Sony MFD-sized sensor sooner rather than later. The my current strategy to cling to a Kodak CCD while waiting for CMOS to become useful for my wide Digitars may actually be successful :grin:

 

[Dan Santoso]

If you go to Pentax web site you will see this:



Is this the next Pentax MDF or 35mm?

I doubt very much Phase or anyone else will be coming up with a FF 645 CMOS sensor. It will not offer that much more quality than the cropped sensors in the Pentax, Hassy and Phase backs and will probably cost too much to make. The profits realized would be minimal and if I was the CEO of any of these companies I would not invest in such a venture. Better to maximize qualities of the existing sensor and cameras the way Sony has shown with the humble 35mm model. There is still valuable real estate in the MF sensor that can be better utilized.

The need of the hour, IMHO is to make a smaller body capable of utilizing the cropped 645 sensor to its fullest and allowing 3rd party lenses to be used with adapters. I am sure Pentax can do it and probably will. If they can then sell it at the current $6-8K price point, it would be a winner.

 

[torger]

Anders,
Like Jagsiva said, it's not much of an improvement. But Sony's problem is the thick cover glass. So I think a BSI sensor with smart micro lens design and a cover glass as thin as possible would be the ticket to me ever considering an upgrade.

A "scientific" test could still be interesting. Crosstalk is manifested through mazing and desaturated colors. If that can be triggered with the A7r-II then it's game over, because then different microlenses or cover glass won't help. Crosstalk is when the light comes in through one color filter (say red) but jumps over to a neighboring pixel of different color and gets registered there (say green). The color filters should sit directly on the surface of the chip, microlenses and cover glass is above. So crosstalk must happen inside the chip. In the old chip designs this happened because the photo diodes where deep down in "wells" the chip, and the wells lacked walls so light could easily get past to the neighboring pixel.

In theory BSI should put the photo diode really really close to the color filter and then there's no opportunity for the light to pass to the neighboring pixel.

In theory BSI should perform well without microlenses too, so if we're really really lucky we'll see a microlens-free MFD BSI sensor with negligible crosstalk issues in the future...

 

[turtle]

That is commonly believed to be the first Pentax FF 24x36 camera, which is expected to be available by spring.

If you go to Pentax web site you will see this:



Is this the next Pentax MDF or 35mm?

 

[dougpeterson]

Re: SK 35&55mm/IQ180 vs Pentax 28-45mm/645Z test and A7RII 90mm macro..Must Read!

If you go to Pentax web site you will see this:

Is this the next Pentax MDF or 35mm?

That's the previously announced 35mm-full-frame Pentax body.

 

[Uaiomex]

I think Pentax designed it with this huge pyramid shaped VF housing to remind us of the past glories of the Pentax 67. I never had one but a best friend swore by it, even over my 500CM.
Anyway, I think the design is really handsome and powerful. The latter mainly based on my personal perception .
Eduardo

If you go to Pentax web site you will see this:



Is this the next Pentax MDF or 35mm?

 

[vjbelle]

If you go to Pentax web site you will see this:



Is this the next Pentax MDF or 35mm?

About the only thing I have to say is that this is a Kick A*** image and powerful web advertisement. Very well presented..... sure gets my attention!!

Victor

 

[tsjanik]

About the only thing I have to say is that this is a Kick A*** image and powerful web advertisement. Very well presented..... sure gets my attention!!

Victor

Pentax has always (at least in my experience since the late 1960s) been an interesting company. It's nice to see Ricoh continuing the tradition and with better advertising.

 

[jagsiva]

Dan, noticed that you've updated the OP with A7R and 55LS as well. The 55LS images look quite close as well.

The A7R/90 vs. IQ180/240LS don't appear near as close as the previous samples, the IQ180 looks significantly better to my eyes. Any further details on how these were shot? Curious since the focal lengths are quite dissimilar, 90mm on 55x40 is closer to 150mm on 35mm FF.

Cheers...