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Thread: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

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    Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Hi all,

    I've been trying to make do with my Rodenstock 55mm APO Sironar-Digital on my Credo 60 / Linhof Techno platform, making 6x13 panoroamic stitches. It's a good lens on centre but when shifting out to the extremes I regularly do, e.g. 17mm horizontal shift each way, plus often about 6mm rise / fall of the back, the edges turn to mush. From what I gather from inspecting the files, the problem is twofold.

    1: Sharpness falloff and
    2: Light falloff, which exacerbates noise and detail smearing when applying an LCC.

    I know the best option for the sceario is the SK 60mm XL, but I wonder if anyone has some files they might be able to share so I can assess how much better it might be? I'm assuming it's lightyears ahead, but I've learnt to downplay my expectations on gear items that might be considered something of a magic bullet...

    For those that use the 60 XL, at the movements I've mentioned how essential is the use of a centre filter for light falloff?
    For those familiar with the RS 55 APOSD, would a centre filter do anything to help me save money, of would it simply be a waste of money?

    Thanks all,

    TJV

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    I use the CF on mine. It is not necessary, but I do feel it helps with extreme shifts. I shift left/right 20mm, even with some rise/fall without any problems. At 20mm on either side, with the IQ180 I get am at an equivalent sensor size of 95mm x 40mm. I have even gone to +/-25mm without much trouble. The only lens I have that goes more is the SK120 ASPH.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    I use the CF on mine. It is not necessary, but I do feel it helps with extreme shifts. I shift left/right 20mm, even with some rise/fall without any problems. At 20mm on either side, with the IQ180 I get am at an equivalent sensor size of 95mm x 40mm. I have even gone to +/-25mm without much trouble. The only lens I have that goes more is the SK120 ASPH.
    This says it all. Great lens. Huge amount of available shift. I have taken mine to 25mm on the 60mp backs. I use the CF when shifting even small amounts like 15mm. Another great Schneider lens that might grow in value as Schneider has gotten out of this type of lens production.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    As has been stated you can easily shift the amount you want. The main reason for my shifting is to make quick 16X9 formats so I only need 10mm shift left and right..... however I have found that for some, not all, scenes even with this small amount of shift I do need an LCC ( on an IQ180 ). I have never used a center filter with this lens..... you will find that there is some light falloff when shifting that can be handled easily in post. A fabulous lens.......

    Victor
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    I own this lens and use it on H4D-50c. It's really sharp, you can shift far, but it's a symmetrical design and that is when you shift far it behaves like a wide angle lens and you have the color cast and the crosstalk issues to deal with which will at least be measurable on the Credo 60. Most (all?) seem to be happy with it so I don't think you will have any practical issues with it.

    Sharpness falloff is visible on extreme shifts, so it's no it's not a magic bullet if you have unrealistic expectations :-), but it's the greatest you can get.

    I don't use the 60XL as much as I thought I would, the FoV I get on the 49x37mm sensor is rarely suitable for my work. I use the 47 and the 72mm more often. I'm happy each time when it fits though because then I know the sharpness will be exceptional.

    I think the 54x41mm sensor size of the Credo60 that makes the FoV a bit wider makes the lens applicable in more situations.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks all for the informative replies.

    I wonder if you'd be able to check out the samples below, which is a two shot 6x13 stictch with the RS 55mm and Credo 60. I've posted here screenshots of the uncorrected LCC shot, the full frame stictch, a 100% centre crop (can't remember exactly where I focused, so approximated,) and a crop from the left of frame. Compared to the 60XL, is this lens a crap shoot?

    To recap, the back is shifted 17mm left then right and approximately 6mm rear fall dialed in.
    My workflow included LCC with 66% correction for light falloff and Jack's capture sharpening setting of:

    Amount: 125
    Radius: 0.6
    Threshold: 1.0
    Luminance NR: 15
    Details: 35
    Color: 35
    Single Pixel: 1

    Torger, at what point of shifting does your H50 show crosstalk with the 60XL? I thought that Kodak CCD was essentially crosstalk free with this lens?

    Thanks all,

    TJV

    EDIT NOTE: On my browser these screengrabs are showing up softer oveall than they do within Lightroom CC (where I do final tweaking and stitching.) Not sure how to fix this, but the difference between centre and left of frame is still plainly obvious. Suffice to say that centre is tack sharp, edges are mushy.)





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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Torger, at what point of shifting does your H50 show crosstalk with the 60XL?
    The Kodak CCD has light shields and thus as robust as it gets. It's not a practical problem, I can go to the edge if I'd like. Before LCC with sensitive demosaicers I can see mazing for large shifts which indicates some angle of attack issue, may be some light crosstalk despite the light shields or simply green1/green2 sensitivity difference. The most likely reason is the latter as the problem disappears after LCC. The Kodak CCD has some green channel separation also with perpendicular angle so it's not unlikely that is exaggerated with increased angle.

    I don't remember at what amount of shift this happens, but it wouldn't help to judge the Credo 60 performance anyway as it's a majorly different sensor design, it has no light shields, but nearly no green1/green2 separation either.

    The angle of view of 60XL is as much as 90 degrees (thanks to large image circle), the 35XL is 102 degrees, lens design is similar. This means that the stress on the sensor at the 120mm edge of the 60XL is similar to that of the 35XL at say 80mm.

    I wouldn't be too paranoid about it though. I don't see anyone complaining. When I got the 60XL myself I had heard so much praise though that I was a little bit surprised that it wasn't sharper than it is with high amounts of shift. With moderate shifts it's indeed very sharp though. I'm not too worried about sharpness myself though, I still use the 47XL and is generally happy with its performance despite that it's on a level below.

    But your real question is of course if the 60XL will provide a significant improve in image quality over your current 55. It will be better for sure, but if it's of significant value is so very personal, best would be to have test shots so you can decide for yourself.

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks Anders,
    Yes, I guess I need to see some samples, which is why I posted here. I'm wondering what people think of the crops I posted above taken with my RS 55mm and how they might compare to the SK 60XL. It seems a waste to resign the such a large part of the edges of the frame to essentially smeared detail, as it's very obvious in my preferred print size of 28" on the short edge.
    Thanks again,
    TJV

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks Anders,
    Yes, I guess I need to see some samples, which is why I posted here. I'm wondering what people think of the crops I posted above taken with my RS 55mm and how they might compare to the SK 60XL. It seems a waste to resign the such a large part of the edges of the frame to essentially smeared detail, as it's very obvious in my preferred print size of 28" on the short edge.
    Thanks again,
    TJV
    It's a tough call as the 55 HR is no slouch either. The 55mm has always been considered a "very good" lens for the price. From looking at your example, I don't think you would see much gain with the 60XL at 17mm of shift. But at 20mm to 25mm of shift? That is where the 60XL can really go. The 60XL is the only "wide" lens I have that can approach these ranges of shift.

    I agree on center to 12mm of shift you can get away with no using the CF, but it does help on larger shifts.

    I use the rm3di, so by default I am limited to 15mm of shift. (Personally I hate this and have never understood why Arca did not go to 20mm like Cambo). So for me to get shifts past 15mm, I have to rotate my camera 90 degrees using an L bracket, and add some support under the camera. So I tend to stay in the 15mm range. The 60XL also doesn't have the built in IC indicators that Rodenstock uses, which create the hard vignette when you reach the "edge" of the IC. Another total waste IMO.

    So with the 60XL, you can really let go on a big shift. I can't remember the IC on the 55HR, but I am sure it has the IC indicators so eventually on a large shift you will hit them and then have the vignette issue.

    the 60XL does not have a great hyperlocal range @ F11 at least from my use. So I also find that I am using tilt on it most times as I prefer the look of edge to edge subject in focus. Just my pref.

    Best case would be to try and rent one in your camera mount and see how it stacks up to your 55HR. They will soon be in short supply to 0 as Schneider is done in this market.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks Paul,

    That's all good info. I'm wondering if you'd have any samples with approximate movements as you mentioned that you could post crops of?
    I'm intrigued that you say you don't think I'd see much gain with the 60XL over the 55mm at 17mm shift. From all other accounts I've read the 60XL is universally praised as being amazingly sharp right out to the edge of the IC. Although I was realistic about what I might be able to expect from the 55mm when shifting that much on the 60mpx chip, the edges are very disappointing in print. At 28x62" the dropoff is very apparent. Digital is so unforgiving compared to film, where the film grain does a good job of hiding optical defects.

    In terms of renting one to try out, there's no one in my part of the world that offers such a service. I live in the South Pacific and order everything from Paula at Linhof Studio.

    Thanks again,

    TJV

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Anyone else able to contribute some knowledge here? It'd be very much appreciated!

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    tjv:

    I find that I rarely shift the 60XL past 15mm, due the design on the rm3di limiting me to 15mm on shift in normal capture setup. To get more shift, I have rotate the camera 90 degrees, by use of an L bracket. This leads to other issues, mainly vibration on longer shots since I have taken the camera off center of the tripod. I have a foam block I use under the camera to help, but overall I mainly go to 15mm. If the rm3di allowed 20mm of shift without the hassle of rotation I would do it more.

    However I did go back and find a test I did with the 60XL on my IQ160. F11. I can't find my notes from that day, but the shift is around 20mm on right and left. At that time I did not have a CF for the 60XL so the light fall off is pretty bad with this much shift.

    What I found, is that the far left and right on the shifted files, is not any better than what you are getting with the 55mm @ 17mm, maybe a bit worse, but some of that may have been my technique. I also had some tilt on so I know that my upper left corner is suffering a bit from that.

    The image is fine, and I would still print it it up large, but if you got close, the edges would show some fall off.

    I hate to use the word "crosstalk" but no doubt the shifts are suffering from it. You can an area where the green/yellow sat, just starts to fall off on the left most image and on the right my sky suffered. With local adjustments, I can get it back enough of it back to still make a good print, however it's a lot of work for sure. I don't think your 55mm will have as much crosstalk, i.e. loss of sat on these larger shifts due to the retrofocus design. So overall you may have the right lens for the job, and for sure if you go up to the IQ180. I can't remember if you were on 60 or 80MP.

    No doubt on this shot, the CF would have helped, as the edges are also a bit noisy.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks Paul, that's really helpful information.

    I'm really surprised at your findings about the 60XL, as it's such a highly regarded lens and I assumed it was better out to the edge of the IC than what you've stated. I really wish I could try one to see how much better or how close it is compared to my 55mm Rodenstock, but no one near me sells this stuff, let alone keeps it on the shelf.

    What I've found with the 55mm is when shooting scenes like the one I posted above, I can mostly get away with the sharpness falloff. It's when photographing subjects that are more flat, like architecture that I run into serious problems. When I first got my Credo 60 I ran some tests by shooting a mult-story building at work and was quite shocked at how horrendous the edges looked with a 6x13 stitch and 8mm fall of the back. Compared to my 90mm HR W–which was near perfect edge to edge–it looked very funky. I thought hard about maxing out the credit card on the spot for the 60XL, but decided to road test it in the field instead. So far it's proved itself much better in the real world than I thought, but I still get those lingering thoughts. I wonder if the 60XL is better with regards to curvature of field, etc., and maintaing edge contrast and detail on flat subjects.

    The other problem I have is that my Techno sliding back only has click stops for horizontal shifts of 17mm in each direction. I'd prefer it if it had both 15mm and 20mm stops, but perhaps I'm the only one who thinks this.

    I've also been doing some research into the 70 HR W also and with it it seems I could just get away with doing a 6x13 stitch with 5mm of fall on the back. Considering I much prefer the 70mm focal length for single shot work, I'm wondering if it might just be the better option. It'd be a bit limiting in terms of IC for stitching, but okay for most of what I do. Again, I wish I could try this stuff out!

    Thanks again,

    Tim

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    shot with the 60/blad cmos back

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks JLM, that looks good.
    Can you share what settings / movements you employed here? I'm assuming it's a stitch? How do the edges hold up?
    Thanks!

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    John

    Which back is that. Is it the CFV 50c?
    Bryan

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    If sharpness after shifting is the only thing you need to know, a test with my H4D-50 back will be adequate. It's different sensor technology from the Credo 60, so color cast etc can't be compared, but the pixel size is the same so the pixel peep sharpness should be the same.

    I've done such tests before but I haven't kept the images and that time I didn't do LCCs. Due to the thing discussed previously I need to do LCCs for the demosaicing to work well, so the last test wasn't a good one. Before edit of this message I said I'd to a test, but I got a bit lazy but I'll do it if you really want it :-). You can send me a private message or email if you want me to test.

    My view is that the lens is extremely sharp in the center, but when you shift a lot the reduction in sharpness is like for all other lenses clearly visible. Although it's for sure better than the 55 you have both in center and when shifted, if it's a meaningful improvement will be a very personal decision.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks Anders,

    You're always so helpful with these things. My go to guy for all things Linhof!

    I'd really love to see some 60XL samples, thanks. A few days ago I found some of your 72mm and 60mm samples you did a while back–the ones you forgot to do the LCC shots for–but they were a little hard to judge without performing the LCC corrections. If you have time between your many other projects, it'd be great to see a couple more 60XL shots utilising the full 17mm of horizontal shift on the Linhof slider and about 6mm of fall or rise of the back. No rush, just when you have time.

    Thanks again,

    Tim

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    I'll try to do it soon. It's bad weather, short days and travelling around that's hindering me a bit :-). I'll do both f/16 and f/11. I think you'll prefer f/16 for the large shifts.

    I've had a quick peek on my recent real SK60 shots but they're no good performance indicators. I shoot at f/16 these days as I prefer avoiding aliasing more than having supersharp pixels at 1:1, and I haven't had any "brick wall" or infinity type of subjects, almost all my shots are fairly close with focus plane tradeoffs. I also use RawTherapee with quite mild sharpening so the 1:1 look can differ quite much from a default Capture One setting.

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    single frame, not cropped, some down tilt (probably 1 degree), no shifting; actually my first shot with the lens
    hasseblad CFV-50c, cmos back with the cambo Actus. processed in Phocus, no LCC, no lens corrections, no center filter

    it is pretty good on the edges and far/near (tilt). if i was hell bent for edge detail, probably would have done a two shot horizontal pano to make the LS and RS as sharp as possible
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    60mm Schneider on Arca rm3di attached to H5D50 shot at f8
    No center filter, 2 degrees tilt used LCC
    Stanley
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    single frame, not cropped, some down tilt (probably 1 degree), no shifting; actually my first shot with the lens
    hasseblad CFV-50c, cmos back with the cambo Actus. processed in Phocus, no LCC, no lens corrections, no center filter

    it is pretty good on the edges and far/near (tilt). if i was hell bent for edge detail, probably would have done a two shot horizontal pano to make the LS and RS as sharp as possible
    How do you like that back?
    Bryan

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    back is fine. i paid 11k for it when they first came out, now i think they are new for even less. LCD, live view are very nice, no problems with focus determination, menus or buttons. not as nice as Phase interface, but by no means a problem. you have to use Phocus or lightroom; Phase has a feud with hasselblad, so C1 won't work on blad files. Phocus has less features, but will produce perfectly good files, just without some of the nicer editing tools found in C1.

    the back is so nice on the 500/200 series cameras it will make you want one of those...
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    I just made some test shots with the Techno and H4D-50 and the SK60XL this morning. It was raining so it was a bit of a mess to shoot (I need to hold the umbrella with my teeth when shooting the LCC). I made an f/11 and f/16 shot with 27mm horizontal shift along the side of the wall of a building. The stressful situation with the rain and my lack of routine shooting architecture caused me to do some mistakes though so I don't know if the images are worth posting: I focused a bit close and didn't aim the camera perfectly flat to the building, and underexposed a bit.

    It seems like the lens has some field curvature, meaning that you can get better result on flat walls by focusing further away. f/16 doesn't necessarily make the (bent) plane of focus much sharper, but makes it much more forgiving on the field curvature so I'd recommend that.

    I think Rm3D focusing DoF scales have field curvature compensation so it should be considerably easier with such a camera to get the optimal brick wall focusing than with a Techno.

    I'll post some crops anyway in a minute
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Here you have a test image:

    http://torger.dyndns.org/sk60xl-test.jpg

    I assume that with proper orientation of the camera and focused further away you can get pretty ok results on the wall on the shifted area. I'd need to to focus bracketing to test if it's possible, but when there's curvature my experience it's not that easy to fix. The best result for f/11 at 100mm IC is quite okay but it's at the bottom of the frame, very close to the camera.

    At f/16 it becomes more forgiving.

    The files are processed in rawtherapee with LCC applied, some normal USM sharpening (same amount for both f/11 and f/16), no noise reduction

    Other SK60XL users could chime in and comment if my result mirrors theirs.
    Last edited by torger; 28th November 2015 at 11:55.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Uhhh may have had an old swing setting on camera, will check later. On the move, stressful days. Meanwhile beware the test file may not show the full potential.

    EDIT: no accidental swing, I had remember to reset all settings from last shooting session. I've done that mistake enough times to get into my head "always pack the camera with zeroed settings"

    Also note that you can get a stitched test file with IQ180 from capture integration here:
    https://captureintegration.com/lens-testing/
    It includes the SK60XL. When I get time I'll compare myself with their shot and see if my copy of the lens is performing as it should.
    Last edited by torger; 28th November 2015 at 06:53.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    I've done a quick compare by eye with Capture Integration's IQ180 test of the SK60XL. It doesn't go out as far out in the image circle as my test, but almost as much. I think their result is better than mine, but I do note that their result is considerably sharper on the right side than on the left. My result is about the same as their right side result.

    At some point in the future I'll investigate in more detail my lens performance, it might have some problem. I rarely do huge shifts though with this lens so it's not a prioritized issue for the moment.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Based on the information provided on this thread, I just ordered the CF for my Schneider 60mm. Truthfully, I have never seen a need for it, but now that I have read your posts; I'll always wonder...B&H will deliver in 3-5 weeks
    Stanley
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    The noise in my posted test shot is not really representative as the shot is a bit under-exposed in the first place, and then no noise reduction has been applied as Phocus was not used (I don't have Phocus installed for the moment), and the H4D-50 then shows quite much noise, it's the way of the Kodak CCD. However if you regularly use the 60XL for stitched wide angle panoramas the center filter is probably a good idea in any case.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks all who have contributed to this thread and private messaged me with files and advise.

    Spurred on by Anders's 60XL tests (which he has himself stated as not ideal and a bit suspect in terms of wheter or not his copy is decentered) I decided to try another controlled test of my 55mm APO-Sironar Digital.

    In the first tests I did of this nature when I first got my back, I essentially focused mid frame of the centre image that was going to make up a 6x13 stitched panorama. (I shot three frames with 8mm of fall on the back, two two of these images also sifted +/- 17mm horizontally.) When doing this, the edges of the frames were pretty soft.

    This time I focused on the outer edge of the center frame (at eye level, as this is usually where my most important detail is) and made the same movements. In short, it's a dramatic difference and I'm now convinced that either my copy of the 55mm APO-Sironar digital is better than the reputation of the lens; Anders's copy of the 60XL is dramatically out of spec; or judging by comments in this thread, that while the 60XL is very sharp for single shot capture and moderate movements, it's overrated when employing big shifts like this.

    Below are some crops and a full frame reference file of a shot taken with my Credo 60. LCC is applied and full vignetting correction is applied.

    All sharpening and noise reduction settings are as outlined in the previous example I posed earlier in this thread.

    Crops and not quite from the very extreme edges of the frame as there was no more drop off of performance that extra bit out to the edge.

    This is the frame with 8mm of fall on the back, plus 17mm of horizontal shift. Lens is at f16. F11 yielded marginally worse performance in the top left edge crop and f16 holds brilliant detail in most areas, so I'm not worried about diffraction.

    What do people think?

    Thanks,

    TJV






    NOTE: Like my examples posted before, these crops are looking softer than they actually are when opened on my computer. I'm not sure what's happening with the forum software, but you'll get the idea.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Looks like the top left crop is affected by the shift/fall. At those shift numbers, I would think the SK would do a little better, but I'd like to confirm with pics.

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Looks like the top left crop is affected by the shift/fall. At those shift numbers, I would think the SK would do a little better, but I'd like to confirm with pics.
    Yes, the corner has a fair bit of detail loss, but I'm yet to see 60xl samples that show it's better. The ones Anders posted were underwhelming, especially considering they corps from the center edge, not upper corner. I'd upgrade if the performance is markedly better, but am hindered by not being able to try before I buy...

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Yes, the corner has a fair bit of detail loss, but I'm yet to see 60xl samples that show it's better. The ones Anders posted were underwhelming, especially considering they corps from the center edge, not upper corner. I'd upgrade if the performance is markedly better, but am hindered by not being able to try before I buy...
    Just hanging out with the kids in Antigua this week. Will get you some samples as soon as I get back early next week.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks Jag,
    That would be awesome. I've just had a note from Paula at Linhof Studio confirming what I already knew to be true and communicated by all of you here before, that Schneider is now producing its last run of digital lenses, for delivery (at least for the 72mm that I enquired about) in the 18th week of next year. Really sad that one of only two of the big players is pulling out of this area... I'd better get in quick if I'm going to jump...

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Thanks Jag,
    That would be awesome. I've just had a note from Paula at Linhof Studio confirming what I already knew to be true and communicated by all of you here before, that Schneider is now producing its last run of digital lenses, for delivery (at least for the 72mm that I enquired about) in the 18th week of next year. Really sad that one of only two of the big players is pulling out of this area... I'd better get in quick if I'm going to jump...
    Paula is great. As for SK, I hear both sides, firstly that they will stop producing tech lenses, but I have also heard they are working on next gen retro wides and ASPH versions of the 150 etc. But reality is that they are selling crap loads of Phamiya LS lenses so it could be an issue of priorities.

    Will get you a couple of samples shortly, Jag
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    A new line of retro focus wife's to offer an alternative to Rodenstock would be amazing!

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Gotta love spellchecker auto-correct
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Gotta love spellchecker auto-correct
    Schneider is leaving the large format lens business entirely. Rodenstock was destroying them market share wise. Not a surprise as most of the tech cam lenses we have sold in the last four years have been Rodenstock. Whomever hinted at a new line of Schneider retro focus lenses is incorrect. They got beat and are going home.

    The popular Schneider LS line for Phase One cameras is unrelated and unaffected.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    That's a bummer, but as expected.

    Doug, I wonder what your thought are on the samples above and the performance one could expect to gain (or not) with the 60xl?

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    That's a bummer, but as expected.

    Doug, I wonder what your thought are on the samples above and the performance one could expect to gain (or not) with the 60xl?
    Our tech camera test included the 60XL with 60mp sensor and varying amounts of shift. Have you seen that?

    https://www.digitaltransitions.com/b...camera-testing
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Such a shame that S/K are leaving. Along with many others I preferred the S/K offerings to the R/S ones. Size, weight, low distortion, rendering, image circle, and cost - there was a lot to like.

    I doubt S/K were ‘beat’ - they’re a big company with a lot of resources - rather they will have looked at where they think this sector is going, and simply didn’t like what they saw. That’s worrying for everyone.

    So, that just leaves R/S - for now at least. Even the much lauded 32mm didn’t perform terribly well when shifted on the 44x33 CMOS sensor, so who knows how it will perform on the next generation full-frame CMOS sensor coming next year. If performance is worse, will R/S then create a new generation of (wide angle) lenses, or will they take a long, hard look at this sector and come to the same conclusion S/K did ?

    Let's hope not.

    Jim
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Some samples. All shot at ISO35, 0.5s, f11, LCC applied.

    15mm/25mm/30mm shifts to the left. All crops are extreme left at Top, Middle, Bottom. I left the lens correction (C1PRO9) sharpness fall off at zero. It does improve the extreme shifts a little. If you have somewhere I can dump the raws, let me know.

    Files are not showing as sharp after the upload, but you can see the relative differences here.







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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Thanks for the examples. One can see a fair bit of saturation loss due to crosstalk; it's worth mentioning that this is a symmetric design and with large shifts on this lens you get the same effects as the old SK wide lenses concerning loss of color fidelity. The Credo 60 will fair better though concerning that aspect due to its larger pixels.

    Considering sharpness I think the result is clearly better than what I got. I think I will send in my copy for re-alignment.

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Thanks for the examples. One can see a fair bit of saturation loss due to crosstalk; it's worth mentioning that this is a symmetric design and with large shifts on this lens you get the same effects as the old SK wide lenses concerning loss of color fidelity. The Credo 60 will fair better though concerning that aspect due to its larger pixels.

    Considering sharpness I think the result is clearly better than what I got. I think I will send in my copy for re-alignment.
    Good point on colour sat. Wonder why we don't have "colour saturation falloff" correction in C1
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Schneider is leaving the large format lens business entirely. Rodenstock was destroying them market share wise. Not a surprise as most of the tech cam lenses we have sold in the last four years have been Rodenstock. Whomever hinted at a new line of Schneider retro focus lenses is incorrect. They got beat and are going home.
    Not sure the same is true for Europe where there is a market for mid-range systems too, and large format film sales although small is not zero. I've heard that Linhof is not happy having to remake all their mounts for their 6x17 cameras (which is currently exclusively Schneider). Yes, they actually sell some of these cameras. Here's some nice examples what a skilled landscape photographer can do with it: Markus Renner Images ? Fine Art Panoramaphotographie*-*Bildarchiv*-*Island

    But regardless sales you can't make much money from large format digital and film lenses, it's more of a prestige and tradition line, I think there must be more values than just profit to make these lenses. I think someone at Schneider just decided that they want to prioritize profit and just give up the tradition. I don't know but I would be surprised if they were actually losing money on the lenses, I think it's a business decision in the line of "cut branches that doesn't generate enough profits". Of course if they had wanted they could easily make the same type of lenses Rodenstock has done, or what I think they should have done, continued to be in the tasteful weight/complexity-vs-performance tradeoff but updated to match the current sensor landscape. It's not that they're lacking the capability to make and develop lenses.

    I just hope that Rodenstock doesn't make the same decision, because surely they could. There is not much money in this business, and I think that from a strict business perspective pulling out and invest money elsewhere is not a bad idea. The reason they're still in I think is that someone in the leadership actually cares about large format photography and wants it to exist as a choice for photographers also in the future. Unfortunately Schneider did not have the same.

    I assume also the unique fine art xxl lenses will cease production, Rodenstock does not have an alternative to those which have 900mm image circle suitable for ultra large format. Actually most Rodenstock large format film lenses show up as "discontinued" when I do a search, so I don't really know what the status is there.

    I would not be surprised if there is no large format lens manufacturer at all in a few years analog or digital, but even after cease production the systems will live for at least 10 more years, just look at Contax. So I see no reason to not buy Schneider today if you like the lenses, just as you can get Copal shutters today although production has already ceased. Copal didn't "get beaten" by anyone by the way, they just considered the whole market to be too small.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Good point on colour sat. Wonder why we don't have "colour saturation falloff" correction in C1
    This is a great question, and one that I found when I was testing the IQ150 vs my IQ260.

    When you shoot the 50MP CMOS chip, and shift say 10mm to 15mm, the amount of red that is displayed on the LCC is tremendous. If you go back and look at the actual files, you can visually see a lot of color/sat fallout on the shifted edge. When I was testing the first day, I said to myself, (done deal, you just can't shift this back). The amount of red on a 15mm shift, I would say is so much that you can't even see the grey of the LCC.

    To my surprise, C1, makes an excellent correction, in fact, it pulls back the vast majority of the color and saturation on these extreme shifts. Enough so that I found I did not need to make much additional changes. This fact was a pleasant surprise for me as when viewing the captured LCC's my feelings were that there was not way that the file would work. On a solid blue sky, C1 pulled back a very nice balance, and gave me most of my greens back. I am sure at 15mm there is plenty of crosstalk, but even at a 100% view I did not see anything that really distracted from the file.

    What also surprised me, was how poorly the IQ260 corrected, on the same shots. I have stated this before in many posts on this site, that I always have a lot of trouble with the HR-W40mm on 15mm shift if there is blue (solid) involved. A lot of tweaking is needed even after the LCC is applied. At least for me. Now that I was working with the IQ150 and 260, I also noticed that C1 seemingly pulled more color period out of the shifts of the 50MP files. Something I guess I had not noticed before as I did not have 2 backs to work with.

    It would appear outwardly, that Phase One, did improve the LCC processing on the 50MP back, but they have NOT gone back and reworked the LCC algorithms for the CCD backs, at least the 2x backs, 260, 280, and possibly the 180. I have to say, I was very impressed by just how good Phase C1 did on the recovery for the IQ150. The correction was more than enough to make 15mm shifts workable, even with a massive amount of solid blue sky. I wish they would go back and re-work the processing on the CCD backs.

    Paul C
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Did another test of my SK60XL today, and it's clearly not performing normally. The right shift (example posted earlier in this thread) has a strange curvature in the focal plane, while it works quite fine with left shift. Another alternative is that there would be some damage to my camera that has hurt parallelism but I think the error would have been more symmetric (looking like accidental swing) if so. The lens boards are not symmetric on the Techno so I can't just turn the lens upside down to test (I could dismantely it to test, but I rather leave that to the experts).

    I'll contact my dealer (this lens I bought new) and ask what to do.

    In any case, my results in this thread can be ignored so far, as something is faulty in my system.

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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    Such a shame that S/K are leaving. Along with many others I preferred the S/K offerings to the R/S ones. Size, weight, low distortion, rendering, image circle, and cost - there was a lot to like.

    I doubt S/K were ‘beat’ - they’re a big company with a lot of resources - rather they will have looked at where they think this sector is going, and simply didn’t like what they saw. That’s worrying for everyone.
    They were beat.

    New lenses take several years from concept to batch production delivery. They released a 28XL lens in a year when 90% of backs being sold were poor candidates for that lens. It was brilliant on older backs, but they didn't look far enough ahead when they started designing it. The situation was so poor they discontinued the lens shortly after release; there is no chance they recovered their costs on the very low quantity I saw sold.

    Rodenstock has been the overwhelming majority of our tech camera sales for several years, and they sell at a higher price point than Schneider's did.

    Rodenstock beat Schneider – simple as that. I've spoken to the head of Rodenstocks camera-lens division (they also do industrial lenses and other niches); their tech camera lens sales were already rising year-over-year for several years before this news. With Schneider no longer competing I suspect their sales will be improved even further.

    It's not a huge market, but it is more than enough for one manufacturer to thrive.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Beat or not, a problem is that Rodenstocks are bad candidates too as we've seen on CMOS, and Dalsa performance under the surface is not exactly impressive either. Phase One has pushed their algorithms to the limit to cover up microlens ripple and tiling, and I've done the same thing too with my Lumariver algorithms (better than C1 actually). Still crosstalk makes colors suffer. Luckily most photographers have a better eye for pixel peep sharpness than for color, although the latter is arguably more important for image quality (the skilled eye see it from any distance).

    Hopefully next CMOS batch is BSI, and hopefully the results are better than the initial reports I've got on the A7r-II BSI sensor, otherwise Rodenstock Digarons are on the track of obsoleteness as well.

    The truth is that sensor manufacturers (since Kodak) have never cared about tech cam lenses, and neither Rodenstock or Schneider have been able to predict the performance of future sensors. Schneider obviously hoped for BSI or similar tech to arrive earlier than it did (the SK28XL is a disaster on Dalsas and it's a mystery they released it at all, but ironically you still get more image circle out of it than the 28 Digaron-S as the latter has a hard-limited 70mm IC), and Rodenstock did predict that retrofocus would be necessary but didn't make them retrofocus enough, especially for the CMOS. So now we have color fidelity and ripple problems which some choose to ignore, and some (like myself) consider it to be a substantial performance issue.

    Things can make a quick turn in this market. What if the coming full-frame CMOS has worse angular response than the current Sony? That can happen, it just takes a high pixel count. The Rodenstock 32mm will suddenly lose its sexiness. Hopefully Rodenstock then has a plan to produce a new set of lenses with more retrofocus than today. Unfortunately with longer more retrofocus lenses it will become more difficult to exceed regular SLR lenses in performance, unless you make them very bulky. Think an more advanced Canon TS-E 24 II in medium format size. 1500 grams wide angle costing $10-12k anyone?

    Tech cam future is by no means "safe", but I think it doesn't really matter to us users. You buy a camera to use now and a few years ahead. If it becomes a dead end in terms of upgradeability you sell off and get a different system, and that was that.
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    Re: Schneider 60XL on 60mpx chip (Credo60/IQ160 etc) samples

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I wish they would go back and re-work the processing on the CCD backs.
    I haven't done any recent tests, but I would suspect that the results may be a coincidence. Crosstalk depends on so many factors that it's hard to predict. Sensor orientation of course, but also what light and what colors there are, so it's hard to fix. I prefer to check "in the lab" to see how much color channels are mixed and then accept a maximum level, say 10% or so, and check what the image circle becomes. When testing on scenes only you risk ending up with "as it works well on this scene I consider this shift amount be okay", and then in some other situation with other light and color a problem pops out. Some are okay with that, and that's fine by me, but this sort of "random" performance concerning color fidelity is not how I like a camera to perform.

    That's why I'm still on Kodak to run my Schneider lens farm... the IQ150 et al aren't as bad as they could be (on retrofocus Rodenstocks!) due to the smaller size (and offset microlenses help too), you don't need to shift as much (unless you make stitches). I think/hope my next sensor will be a 44x33mm BSI Sony, I don't think it will fix all problems but hopefully it gets above the acceptable level for me, but I will have to swap out my widest Schneiders for Rodies.
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