Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 34 of 34

Thread: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I want MFD backs to be like film. I want to be able to use this MF digi 'film' on any damn camera / lens system I choose whenver I choose to use it.

    I dont want any MF digi 'film' company to tell me what hardware I can or cannot use. In fact I REFUSE to give any company any more of my dollars if they think I am fool enough to fall into their perpetuity user trap.

    The only two companies that allow me the choice of using one of their backs on pretty much ANY camera/lens system I choose in pretty much ANY format I choose to use - are Sinar and Hasselblad.

    Sure I can change mounts with Leaf and Phase one - but these changes are permanent and not cheap. I like being able to use a little screwdriver and whack a Sinar back on any camera I choose.

    I shoot with a lot of different bodies and lens systems - because I LIKE to. I want a studio 6x9 made for digi - and I want a landscape architecture system with rise and tilt and shift - that WORKS.

    Buying the best available out there is not much more cost to me as a BLOODY UPGRADE from 40 megapixels to 50 - NO THANKS mr megapixel BS - the game is OVER.

    I KNOW I will make much more interesting and varied PHOTOGRAPHS that will be PRINTED when I can use the right camera/lens combination as required.

    There -now tell me why I am stoopid with my thinking - I m ALL EARS.

    Pete

  2. #2
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Hi Pete:

    Well, for the most part I at least *understand* your plight, but for my part do not necessarily agree with it...

    Let me back up a bit and share a bit of my personal history. In a past life I was a competitive marksman and participated in a variety of shooting competitions. If you think photographers obsess about gear, you should go to a shooting match. There are guys that will run a round of skeet with a matched pair of Purdy's so neither overheats. They usually shoot well, but at the end of the day there are always a few folks who rise to the top of the game and invariably they have nice gear, but not a lot of it. Some of them don't eve have particularly nice gear. In the case of a skeet match, the guy with the matched pair of Purdy's had (and this was many years ago) around $20,000 invested in that one pair of guns, and I assure you he had more to choose from, but the guy that won most of the time shot with a single, $400 Remington 1100 autoloader...

    The moral of the story for shooting sports was taken from an old saying, origin unknown: Beware of the man who only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it.
    ~~~

    My point. For me, being intimately familiar with my gear, its controls, it menus, its metering idiosyncrasies, lenses and their anomalies and being able to change lenses seamlessly without thought are paramount to my being able to work comfortably. And when I'm comfortable and fluid when working with my gear, I tend to focus less on it and more on making images. In many ways, I think less is more in photography.

    Now I realize most folks think of me as a gear slut, but the truth is I do not really own that much gear. I do buy and sell a bunch to test a bunch of it, and I do own some nice stuff, but what I keep and use is usually the minimum I need to meet a particular set of shooting needs. Heck, I don't even keep really good lenses if I don't use them regularly.

    Final point: I see the concept of using a single back on multiple bodies as a kluge. The engineer in me says the added adapter interface needed is simply one more point for errors or instability to show up in the total imaging system. This concern is supported to a large degree by the fact that companies like Hassleblad often have to custom shim their backs to mate to a specific body, and these shims are very, very thin in most cases. (And I do not yet understand how Phase gets away with virtually perfect focus with any back on any body -- at least that's true with Mamiya bodies -- it seems a virtual impossibility, yet they accomplish it...) So in the end, call me suspicious of the long term mechanical veracity of any product wanting to provide that type of totalitarian versatility and flexibility.

    My .02 only,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    G'day Jack,

    I understand the one gun analogy it is rather like the beware of the quiet guy at the back of the bar not the guy who is making the most noise at the front - same story different locations.

    However, I am sure you know Jack- that as good as double barrel side by side or under and over is with birds - it is useless @ nailing a wild boar or a fox at 100/200 or 300 meters - Given your experience with shooting, I am sure you are aware of the fact that one uses different guns for different purposes. Down here they are just necessary tools on the farm.

  4. #4
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Brooklyn
    Posts
    4,043
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1253

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    i went down this path. started with the 20ttcc and cfv, a fine system, then added the horseman which takes the cfv; the whole shooting match as long as you don't want tilts.
    then Son sells me his Rollei Xact 2 with the phase 20 back, giving me the whole she-bang. added the rollei 6008. i am not having any interchanging problems with the rollei gear and phase, didn't have any with the blad gear either

  5. #5
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Not heard the one about Hassey backs needing shims Jack. Both my 31 and 39 mount on the Rollei Xact via an adapter without shims needed for either back. If a Phase back will mount on any Mamiya body, wouldn't that mean the tolerences were pretty tight from body to body since they are the variable?

    Peter, that's a tough one. Fortunately, there are two makes of backs that give you what you want verses two that don't.

    In the end I tend to slide toward Jack's POV, and prefer an integrated system aproach ... the more integrated the better.

    However, I guess I do fall under the title of gear slut ... but actually it's more that I'm a photographic Pack Rat ... when I add, I don't subtract the same amount ... and a few years of that adds up

    If I don't have enough different things to play with, I get bored. I personally don't feel a lack of flow with different gear ... I look at all cameras as the same ... a box with media in them ... The switches and dials may be in different places camera to camera, but I know they are there, and intuitively remember where.

    Let's face it, there is no prefect system for everyone, and I certainly hope there never will be.

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle, USA
    Posts
    400
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I'm with Peter on this one. My back my tools. Even if I never switch, I'd still want the comfort of knowing that some backs are designed without switchability in mind.

    How many of us have only ever owned a single medium format camera system? Wouldn't it be nice to at least have the option of taking your back with you?

    That being said, once I find my system, I tend to dial into it until it's invisible to me, but I'd still like the freedom and flexibility of mount adapters.

    -Brad

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    My problem has been less about a single, multi-use back .... it's more about the need for bigger sensors when it comes to using multiple MF systems. I didn't gravitate to a 6X6 203FE because I wanted a chopped format, nor for the 6X7 RZ system which I still have. That is more how I used and supported multiple MF systems in the days of film.

    I'd gladly support two dedicated backs if one of them was a 54X54 sized sensor in a dedicated mount CFV type back for my 203FE/503CW. Now that would be a perfect use of one back on 2 types of camera just like the CFV is now.

    So, I do understand those that have two 645 systems ... one focal plane and the other a leaf shutter ... but I gave that up as not being practical since maintaining two complete systems of lenses and accessories for the same size sensor was pretty costly ... especially since 85% of my 645D work required high speed sync. However, if Hasselblad offered a H focal plane body, I'd pay a premium for it.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    42
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... However, if Hasselblad offered a H focal plane body, I'd pay a premium for it.
    Which is what Hasselblad should have done; I am just surprised that it has not done so yet.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I also agree with Peter (and Bradley) on this topic. It is becoming less about the megapixels and more about the capability and flexibility of your (total) camera system.

    Using a MFDB system with adapters, more capabilities are immediately available to you. You can shoot with the lenses and camera body that you like and that you feel are the most appropriate for the job at hand, regardless of brand. One day it may be the arTec, another day it may be a Linhof or P3, another day it maybe a 6x6 RZ or Hy6, another day the 645 of your current preference, .. etc. You can change the type of equipment you wish to use back and forth at any time.

    I am not advocating supporting a lot of different camera systems, but rather the flexibility to allow the photographer the freedom to choose and to change more easily. Indeed, it may be only one particular camera system at the present time, but you could change or expand at any time, and take advantage of the strengths of any particular system when you need it. Furthermore, no one camera system can do it all. For example, a 645 AF system is great for fashion and general speed, but is not the most appropriate for other work requiring finer perspective control or larger image circles such as for architecture (and vice versa of course).

    In fact, I see most professional photographers moving towards at least three systems for their MFDB:
    -- a portable architectural rangefinder (e.g. arTec, Alpa, Cambo, etc.)
    -- a general purpose SLR w/ AF leaf shutter and/or focal shutter (645 or 6x6)
    -- a studio based view camera (e.g., Linhof, Xact2, P3, etc.)

    With an adapter based MFDB, you will have the widest selection of choices as to which of these systems you wish to use at any time, without having to invest in multiple backs. Careful consideration of lenses typically results in needing only a few for each type of system. When money and jobs are tight, this kind of flexibility may keep your business going, as opposed to paying top dollar for the most megapixels.

  10. #10
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterA View Post
    The only two companies that allow me the choice of using one of their backs on pretty much ANY camera/lens system I choose in pretty much ANY format I choose to use - are Sinar and Hasselblad.
    Pete - so if there are 2 brands which offer what you want-why dont you just use a Sinar or Hasselblad and be happy?

  11. #11
    Aitor
    Guest

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I agree Peter. Only one thing, change mounts in Sinar is not cheap at all. I have two CMV lenses in a P3 that are more a problem than a solution if you want to change the back

  12. #12
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by David Klepacki View Post
    I also agree with Peter (and Bradley) on this topic. It is becoming less about the megapixels and more about the capability and flexibility of your (total) camera system.

    Using a MFDB system with adapters, more capabilities are immediately available to you. You can shoot with the lenses and camera body that you like and that you feel are the most appropriate for the job at hand, regardless of brand. One day it may be the arTec, another day it may be a Linhof or P3, another day it maybe a 6x6 RZ or Hy6, another day the 645 of your current preference, .. etc. You can change the type of equipment you wish to use back and forth at any time.

    I am not advocating supporting a lot of different camera systems, but rather the flexibility to allow the photographer the freedom to choose and to change more easily. Indeed, it may be only one particular camera system at the present time, but you could change or expand at any time, and take advantage of the strengths of any particular system when you need it. Furthermore, no one camera system can do it all. For example, a 645 AF system is great for fashion and general speed, but is not the most appropriate for other work requiring finer perspective control or larger image circles such as for architecture (and vice versa of course).

    In fact, I see most professional photographers moving towards at least three systems for their MFDB:
    -- a portable architectural rangefinder (e.g. arTec, Alpa, Cambo, etc.)
    -- a general purpose SLR w/ AF leaf shutter and/or focal shutter (645 or 6x6)
    -- a studio based view camera (e.g., Linhof, Xact2, P3, etc.)

    With an adapter based MFDB, you will have the widest selection of choices as to which of these systems you wish to use at any time, without having to invest in multiple backs. Careful consideration of lenses typically results in needing only a few for each type of system. When money and jobs are tight, this kind of flexibility may keep your business going, as opposed to paying top dollar for the most megapixels.
    Sorry, I guess I don't quite follow this argument.

    I have a so called closed MFD system. However, I can use the back on a field tech camera (with the Image Bank-II), on my Rollei Xact-II studio view camera, or on the faster, more fully integrated 645 AF body ... a body which also allows me to use either the HC lenses or any of my vast collection of Zeiss 500 series lenses without all that stop down meter/shoot nonsense.

    If I'm not mistaken, any Phase One back can be used on all three types of professional applications you mention. So can any Leaf back. And their on board battery makes it even easier to use on a field tech camera.

    The ONLY thing missing with the H system is use on a focal plane shutter 645 camera ... which in all honesty I have very little use for professionally, and tend to turn to high meg 35mm DSLRs for applications of that type anyway... which is why I sold my Mamiya 645/Aptus 75s kit ... it just wasn't earning it keep.

    What you have made me interested in is securing a H "dumb adapter" for my RZ. Since that is a leaf shutter camera, it will also work with the H3D back set to sync mode just like any view camera.

    I DO agree that flexibility is more important than adding some incremental megapixel count. In today's economic environment, a view camera system could bring more diversified ROI than 10 more meg IMHO.

  13. #13
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I like to 'empathize' with other people's point of view - which for me is looking at the world through their eyes and then seeing how it fits (or not) in my world and my uses. I get to learn a lot from unbiased views and from people whose views I respect. So thanks Marc and David for your contributions.

    I look at the responses and I am getting confirmation of my simple premise - and that is wouldn't it be great if ALL backs would allow us to use ANY camera/lens system we wished to whenever we wished - just like film did.

    Sounds weird I know, coming from our current experience and available options. For sure everyone has preferences about this versus that in terms of how we can work around the basic inability to use whatever camera system format we like whenever we like.

    Anyway - the world is as it is. I think I have all bases covered now - it means two backs though. Fortunately the cost of used backs is plummeting in line with the huge decline in new prices which Hasselblad started.

    The only thing that is missing - a point made by you Marc previously is a large square format chip- wouldn't that be a blast!

    ( cheecky aside the Hasselblad may go IF / WHEN you guys PROVE that the S2 is better I am thinking that that is 2 years away)

  14. #14
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I think you maybe looking at the 4/3rds model in which you can use glass on different bodies and such. In theory i think it works but in practice not sure it took off as well as expected. Not sure many folks would go for like Phase back , Sinar body , Hassy lens setup and reason being is get's very confusing . Although some of it is practice today but even switching adapter plates is not exactly cheap either.Plus you need complete buy in from all 4 MF OEM's which would be very hard. The thought is there but not sure folks would actually do it
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  15. #15
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    3,623
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I would think that its allready nice that you can use the most digital backs on different camera systems.
    The wish for each back fitting on each camera probably interferes with the wish for integration between back and camera.

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Guys- all i am saying is that the connections between digi backs and camera bodies - should be standardised - just like we have standards for firewire USB electrical plugs etc etc etc..

    Yes it would require industry standards. but industries around the world have grown in size and profitability and lowered costs - BECAUSE of the existance of standards.

    We dont have standards in this cottage industry. MFD back to camera bod(ies) would not interrupt companies ability to produce DAC corrections or choose which lenses to design and incorporate - progress would still occur.

    In fact in many ways the makers are already conforming to industry standards- otherwise you couldnt use a CF card or a tethered connection etc etc..

    All that is happening now is small companies kidding themselves that these artificial barriers to exit and entry protect their market shares - the revcerse is happenning - too much focus on protecting and not enough focus on delivering quantum leaps in progress.

    Anyway - if these attitudes continue - I can tell you what will happen to the industry - it has happenned to other industries like this forever and a day...we wont have 4 or five back manufactureres - thats for sure...and at the end of the day - those who make the better body/lenses will win - not the back software dudes - this is being commidified ..-

  17. #17
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I get the desire to be able to use a back on a variety of cameras. I certainly get the concept of wanting to be able to have a focal plane AND leaf shutter system at hand. I even get the wanting a system that allows for WLF and rotating back. (And FWIW I can already get all of this with my current Phase back, and it's perhaps the most limited fitment of all the backs.) However, I don't quite see it as the Sony Betamax v VHS scenario; I see it more like the Mercedes versus Lexus situation.

    Yes, it would be nice if they standardized, but not sure that it's truly feasible from an engineering standpoint UNLESS you have adapter plates a la Sinar since all the camera bodies are so vastly different.
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."

  18. #18
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I am sure that you will agree that the engineering requirements for standardised interfaces is hardly rocket science Jack. There is greater than zero utility in giving the user the choice.

    Even Phase recognise that there is some demand for changing mounts - they charge for it and ask like they do for their current mamiya bodies - that this stuff is physically sent back to them for a firmware upgrade or mount change - like they are doing you a favour.

    I dont want to mail my back 1000 miles up the coast so that they can then mail the back to someone somwhere around the world and take all the risk and hassle just to change a body configuration. Sure I can get it done - but I cant do it myself a few times a day if the mood or need takes me - or just for the heck of it.

    Hence - exit Phase ( somewhat reluctantly I might add). replace with a back and a few adaptors - 3 screws and a screwdriver required - even my fat fingers can handle that. keep other system ( DAC works lets see if HTS gives me what i need for movements) if not bye bye that one as well.

    There is method to my madness. If I were close to real Phase support - maybe less of an issue. Everyone's personal circumstances are different.

  19. #19
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,274
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap. Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back. It's a decent insurance policy though in case the platform you choose ends up not being right for you.

    And yes, the P series of Phase digital backs can be used on tech cameras, view cameras, home-made pinhole cameras, as well as the SLR for which they are fitted. In addition they can do so without the need for an Image Bank, additional battery, or laptop. The Mamiya and Hassy V mounts can also be used on the Mamiya RZ and the V can also be used with a Fuji 680III.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

  20. #20
    Member Arjuna's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta
    Posts
    203
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Peter

    I think that your desire is driven by economics (hardly surprising, given your line of work).

    "I want MFD backs to be like film. I want to be able to use this MF digi 'film' on any damn camera / lens system I choose whenver I choose to use it."

    In the film realm, you can use the same kind of film in any (medium format) camera/system, but you would be unlikely to use the same roll, and you almost certainly wouldn't use the same film back. The cost of film backs is relatively small compared to the cost of the rest of the system, so having film backs for each system was not a big deal. But the cost of a medium format digital back is much, much bigger than the cost of the rest of the system (in both cases, meaning the cost of a body, viewfinder and one or two lenses - plainly there can be a wide range of costs for a medium format system exclusive of film or digital back), so now there is a big economic incentive to re-use it.

    In the digital realm I would say that the CF card is closer to the equivalent of film - you can use it on pretty much any system (i.e. back), perhaps with a reformat. In terms of relative costs, a medium format digital back is now the core of a system, with the camera body really being reduced to a kind of lens/viewfinder adapter.

  21. #21
    DougDolde
    Guest

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Just shoot 4x5 film. You can mix and match any camera body, lens and film with nearly no limitations !

  22. #22
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap.

    Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back. It's a decent insurance policy though in case the platform you choose ends up not being right for you.

    And yes, the P series of Phase digital backs can be used on tech cameras, view cameras, home-made pinhole cameras, as well as the SLR for which they are fitted. In addition they can do so without the need for an Image Bank, additional battery, or laptop. The Mamiya and Hassy V mounts can also be used on the Mamiya RZ and the V can also be used with a Fuji 680III.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio

    Let me deconstruct ( for sake of clarity)


    Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap.

    this means you pay up front for a once off platform swap - for which you send the body away - hardly the same as use it on any body any time is it? Leaf offer the same 'srervice'

    Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing

    This means Pete is correct but ...

    we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back.

    This means people dont see much utility in the way Phase presents this platform swap idea and therefore dont use it.

    It's a decent insurance policy though in case the platform you choose ends up not being right for you.

    This means - the use is as a sales device for you too when you decide to sell


    And yes, the P series of Phase digital backs can be used on tech cameras, view cameras, home-made pinhole cameras, as well as the SLR for which they are fitted.

    Sure! same for every other maker too..thats a good thing!


    In addition they can do so without the need for an Image Bank,

    This means Phase has an internal battery in the back - but doesn't thave the option of an external portable hardrive which also powers a back. It also means that you need 2 batteries in a Phase system as well as all other systems - (except thankfully) HD series blad - one in the back and some other in the actual camera you are using. No big deal either way - except for the hassle of all those teeny weeny batteries some camera manufacturers insist on using in their pre digi era cameras ( Mamiya and contax 645)


    The Mamiya and Hassy V mounts can also be used on the Mamiya RZ and the V can also be used with a Fuji 680III.

    Yes same for other backs- this is a good thing too!


    Now you gotta understand where I am coming from no disrespect meant at all - I think ALL teh back makers make great backs and they all have difficult industry circumstances and I especially appreciate Doug's contributiuon to teh forum and I wish other back makers had as an enthusiastic participation as Doug !

  23. #23
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    carstenw's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Berlin, Germany
    Posts
    2,530
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap. Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back.
    I don't mean to sound hostile here, but if you make it really bloody expensive and very slow to change a single back (in my understanding, the back isn't actually changed, but it sits around waiting for the desired configuration to show up, and then they are swapped?), then it is hardly surprising that no one goes for it. The single free time doesn't allow anyone to use two systems on an ongoing basis, so it wouldn't really change anything much, except as you say, make it easier to sell.

    Now if Phase would actually make it easy and cheap to swap (Sinar is about 2-3 cheaper, for a single swap, and after that it is free), then you might see people take advantage of it.

    As it is, it is a bit like handing out free one-way tickets to the moon. Surprise, no one comes to the party.
    Carsten - Website

  24. #24
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I ran into exactly this issue with my Leaf back. A new system comes out called the Hy6, and Leaf develops their version called the AFi. I'm interested, until I find out that the almost new $30K Leaf Aptus 75s I already own, and is identical in performance to the AFi 7 back, cannot be adapted to the AFi at all ...

    We all tend to go with whatever we're told, so we accept the lack of interchangeability like sheep. Come on, we are talking the price of a car here ... and to buy additional extended protection is pretty darn close to extortion.

    The whole platform swap out/ extended warranty is an old marketing ploy using what's called "slippage" ... meaning that it sounds good at initial sale, but is an expensive option that's rarely exercised. Basically, it's an insurance scam made to sound attractive, and some buy it so they can feel secure. But secure from what? Well, the outrageous prices for fixing any of this stuff if it's out of warranty.

    How many people would buy a car for $30 or $40K ... with a one year limited warranty? And you have to give up your car for weeks while it's being fixed?

    These backs should be backed for 5 years, or 100,000 actuations, whichever comes first ... and be transferable. If a company believes in their product and has done a good job of engineering and manufacturing, this should be a no brainer and expose them to very little financial burden.

  25. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Seattle, USA
    Posts
    400
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpetersonci View Post
    Just to clarify the 3 year Value Added Warranty that we recommend with Phase One backs includes a free platform swap. Though in theory the idea of changing systems being freeing we find very few customers end up changing platforms using this free swap and end up using the free platform swap to increase the resale value of their back. It's a decent insurance policy though in case the platform you choose ends up not being right for you.

    Doug Peterson, Head of Technical Services
    Capture Integration, Phase One & Canon Dealer | Personal Portfolio
    Like Carsten and Peter, I have no wish to sound hostile either, but it is difficult to watch this and not inform people about what is currently transpiring between myself and your company, Capture Integration.

    I purchased a value added Phase one camera and back package from Peter, which was purchased from Capture Integration just a few months earlier, and thus far, I have been unable to obtain any form of service, *including* the 3-year value added warranty support from Capture Integration for which Peter (and subsequently I) have paid for.

    I think it is worth pointing out to people that this "free platform swap" is only available after paying for it (as Peter pointed out), and, in Capture Integration's case, only if you were the original purchaser. Otherwise, you are asked to pay a $400 "service fee" to access your Value Added warranty, or any support for that matter.

    Needless to say, I am surprised and disappointed (to put it mildly) by this particular policy, and have taken this matter up with Phase directly.

    In the meantime, I felt it important to get all the facts out there with respect to support and the Value Added Warranty.

    Best regards,
    -Brad

  26. #26
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Bradley - I was not aware about any of this...

  27. #27
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    492
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ... a body which also allows me to use either the HC lenses or any of my vast collection of Zeiss 500 series lenses without all that stop down meter/shoot nonsense.
    Sure, but the H camera system cannot accommodate ALL the Zeiss glass. Some people really like the faster Zeiss F/FE lenses (like 50/2.8, 110/2, 150/2.8, 300/2.8) and like to shoot them wide open, so stop down meter/shoot is not an issue for them. You can't use the FE lenses with the H camera, but you can use them on other cameras. All I am trying to say, like Peter, is that a back which is more flexible in how it interfaces to other cameras offers a little more freedom.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    If I'm not mistaken, any Phase One back can be used on all three types of professional applications you mention. So can any Leaf back. And their on board battery makes it even easier to use on a field tech camera.
    Yes, but then you always have to make sure that you stay within the same mount. The ability to easily adapt a back to different mounts makes it more flexible than a system that is fixed to only one mount. For example, if you wanted to easily switch to and from a H camera to a focal plane shutter 645 or to a 6x6 or to an arTec ... etc., you do not have as much flexibility in your camera choices.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The ONLY thing missing with the H system is use on a focal plane shutter 645 camera ... which in all honesty I have very little use for professionally, and tend to turn to high meg 35mm DSLRs for applications of that type anyway... which is why I sold my Mamiya 645/Aptus 75s kit ... it just wasn't earning it keep.
    This happens to be your own personal choice and need. There are many pros here who find professional value in focal plane shutter cameras, for example the Mamiya and PhaseOne cameras. In fact, if and when leaf shutter lenses become available for these cameras, it will be interesting to see how much market share they can capture from Hasselblad.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    What you have made me interested in is securing a H "dumb adapter" for my RZ. Since that is a leaf shutter camera, it will also work with the H3D back set to sync mode just like any view camera.
    Yes, this should work.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I DO agree that flexibility is more important than adding some incremental megapixel count. In today's economic environment, a view camera system could bring more diversified ROI than 10 more meg IMHO.
    I am glad we can agree on something.

  28. #28
    Senior Member Steve Hendrix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    4

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    Sorry, I guess I don't quite follow this argument.


    What you have made me interested in is securing a H "dumb adapter" for my RZ. Since that is a leaf shutter camera, it will also work with the H3D back set to sync mode just like any view camera.
    Will not work. The locking lever of the digital magazine on the H3D interferes with the latching mechanism of the adapter.


    Steve Hendrix
    Phase One

  29. #29
    Senior Member Dave Gallagher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Atlanta
    Posts
    1,205
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Gentlemen,

    In this tough economy we all find ourselves working twice as hard for half as much. This does not seem limited to one or two marketplaces but seems rather global in scale today. Just today in Orlando, a customer showed me a want add looking for a Professional Photographer/Class A Truck Driver. It doesn't make sense but it seems that all of us are asked to produce much more than we used to for the same pay. Of course our company has seen its set backs as well. Some days I have to remind myself to breathe. In regards to this, I apologize for not adding more to this forum. Doug keeps us abreast of the questions and issues here and has our full support to act on Capture Integration's behalf by supporting the endusers of Phase One products that are members here. Doug forwarded this thread to me early this evening and I thought it warranted an explanation on our part. Let me try to explain our policy below.

    When someone buys a back from us, we sell a support package that comes with FW cables, a synch saver, LCC card, and other accessories that we see as essential for Phase One owners. We call this our Professional Support Package. With that the customer also receives unlimitted tellephone and e-mail support for as long as he or she owns that digital back. Most of this support happens in the first 120 days of ownership and it entails software license issues, C1 Pro questions, connectivity issues, etc. After that period, the questions become substantially fewer and longer in between. But we still support that customer with any issues that he or she has concerning their purchase.

    Now that digital capture devices have matured we are finding that the lifetime of a digital back often extends to multiple owners. One back can now have 3-4 owners and still produce incredible imagery. The problem is that with each owner, that 120 day support cycle starts all over again. This was not an issue when we had a just a few customers, but now that we have sold units that total well over 1000 (yes, literally) these multiple ownerships puts a burden on our support staff that makes us unable to maintain profitability.

    Last year we implemented our support package for DB owners that did not purchase their DB from us. Quite a few customers find that the support from their reseller is not anywhere close to the support that we provide and they choose to have Capture Integration answer their questions and solve their problems. I gladly invite those customers to use us for their support. However, that support has a value and Capture Integration should be compensated for our expertise, experience, and problem solving.

    If we were B&H, then we can build a business model where support is non-existent and everyone knew that upfront. However, the Phase One product line and C1 Pro are products that will produce incredible results if used properly. And we believe that our support is a necessary part of this link. We charge $399 for unlimited technical support for endusers who did not purchase from us. I strongly feel that this amount for our level of support for the product is very modest and undervalued.

    It is important to know the distinction between warranty matters and technical support. We constantly help endusers with warranty issues, such as format swaps, that did not purchase the unit from us. Scott Hoerner from this forum is a prime example just last month. Warranty support was handled through CI on a back purchased elsewhere. But if or when a line is crossed to firmware updates, technical questions, or free replacement parts this is when we require endusers to become customers of ours before we proceed with support. Simply stated.

    On this forum and with all others, I will not get personal or discuss individual situations. Instead I will reiterate that my personal cell phone is always on and is available to anyone here that would like to discuss any of these matters with me. Guy and Jack, thank you for allowing us to be a part to this unique place. We do not take the privilege lightly. We appreciate you and this community greatly.

    Sincerely,

    Dave Gallagher
    President
    Capture Integration
    (404) 522-7662
    (770) 846-5223 Cell

  30. #30
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I bought a Phase One back from Capture Integration last summer. They have been unfailingly helpful and cooperative. Lance when he was still there, Dave and Doug have been very supportive, and I would not hesitate to do business with them again.

    I don't know what happened that caused the dissatisfaction discussed here, but I thought a contrary, disinterested, view might be worth mentioning. Surely Capture Integration have a business reason for participating in these fora, but I think Doug's assistance with tech questions raised here by people who aren't CI customers is worth commending. I appreciate it.

    Stephen Gilbert

  31. #31
    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    23,623
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2555

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Dave thank you very much for coming online and addressing the forum and explaining this better and also as a owner and customer myself of CI. I always appreciate the service attention that I receive and reason i bought through a dealer and that was and is the support lifeline. As a working Pro my lifeline is support and service of the products we use daily. I appreciate all the dealers in all the systems that provide this for there customers as I see it as a truly value added to your system purchase.
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

    www.guymancusophotography.com

  32. #32
    Senior Member yaya's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    London, UK
    Posts
    1,168
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    38

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    I'd like to chime in without really taking any sides, more to explain the ins and outs of the different approaches.

    Peter I don't think there is right or wrong here. It is more a question of what the majority of users wish, ask and pay for

    Going with the car analogy which for understandable reasons ($$$) is very popular in these discussion, let look at someone who likes the engine and gearbox in his/ her current car for it's performance but wishes that the handling and/ or practically/ comfort of the actual car leave allot to be desired.

    In today's car industry, many companies work together and share quite allot of components and many technologies are based on certain standards. Still in reality you cannot simply take the engine out of your Mazda 6 and fit it into your Ford S-Max (one being a saloon and the other being an MPV serving different purposes). Not saying this is not possible but it is not practical even though they probably share 50% of their chassis and mechanical/ electronic components.

    Back to our industry. The reality is that Hasselblad sell maybe 20 or 30 H3D kits for every CF back that they sell - this maybe the reason why 50MP and 60MP are not mentioned (yet) in relation to the CF line.

    The same may apply to Sinar with the adoption of Leaf's 56MP solution.

    The vast majority of Phase and Leaf users (who together own the largest combine install base), have bought a back to fit on not more than 3 cameras. Typically these would be a "small" SLR e.g. AFD, H1, AFi or 500 series, a "large" SLR e.g. RZ, RB, 680 and a technical camera ALPA, P2, Arca-Swiss etc.

    For these people we have 95% of all these configurations covered.

    To fit a Leaf back in AFD mount on an RZ is cheaper and much quicker/ more practical than to change an interface using Allen keys.

    The old Leaf DCBII, Volare and Cantare lines used an interchangeable interface system which was great at the time and worked quite well for the small chips. But as sensor grow in size the tolerances for maintaining focus across the frame become tighter. Also in the last 1-2 years there were allot more people buying a complete solution (back and body e.g. H3D or AFi) than just a back for the old RZ. They may still want to use the back on the RZ and nothing (in Leaf's case at least) stops them from doing so.

    There aren't too many people who have bought a digital back and that use it regularly on an H1 AND on a Contax. For the very few that do require this option, the two backs that offer it probably cover the needs.

    We develop our backs in 5 different mounts and each of these can be used on at least 1 small SLR, 1 large SLR and nearly every technical camera, all via simple adapters that require no screw+key work. This approach over the years has proved to be successful and I am assuming that the same takes for Phase and recently for Hasselblad with the H line.

    There are a vew that buy a back for Contax and later on decide that the H system is better for their needs. These people can pay to have their back swapped for a charge. The turn around is a few days and is handled by the dealers so in most cases there is no real downtime at all.

    Yair
    Yair Shahar | Product Manager | Phase One | Mamiya Leaf
    e: [email protected] | m: +44(0)77 8992 8199 | yaya's blog

  33. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    2,338
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    52

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Hi there Yair and thank you for your thoughtful repsonse from a manufacturer's point of view.

    I understand the automotive analogy - but dont think it is particularly pertinent analogy for the MFD back and camera and lens market. Nevertheless your points about what people ask and pay for is exactly on the money - by definition.

    Also I acknowledge that as a hobbyst my primary motivation regarding equipment is the fun of the equipment and as I have said I dont particularly see much difference between the various backs in terms of IQ - but I can 'see' a differerence in drawing between different lenses and different formulations and I also see a big difference between the way various formats works.

    So yes my preferences are certianly not common preferences - any more.

    PS - I am looking at one of your flat bed scanners ( wet and dry mounting etc ) - excellent technology btw and will make using film in various formats a pleasure.

    Pete

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Fort Collins, Colorado
    Posts
    2,077
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: What I am thinking..feel free to tell me why I am wrong!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Gallagher View Post
    Gentlemen,

    In this tough economy we all find ourselves working twice as hard for half as much. This does not seem limited to one or two marketplaces but seems rather global in scale today. Just today in Orlando, a customer showed me a want add looking for a Professional Photographer/Class A Truck Driver. It doesn't make sense but it seems that all of us are asked to produce much more than we used to for the same pay. Of course our company has seen its set backs as well. Some days I have to remind myself to breathe. In regards to this, I apologize for not adding more to this forum. Doug keeps us abreast of the questions and issues here and has our full support to act on Capture Integration's behalf by supporting the endusers of Phase One products that are members here. Doug forwarded this thread to me early this evening and I thought it warranted an explanation on our part. Let me try to explain our policy below.

    When someone buys a back from us, we sell a support package that comes with FW cables, a synch saver, LCC card, and other accessories that we see as essential for Phase One owners. We call this our Professional Support Package. With that the customer also receives unlimitted tellephone and e-mail support for as long as he or she owns that digital back. Most of this support happens in the first 120 days of ownership and it entails software license issues, C1 Pro questions, connectivity issues, etc. After that period, the questions become substantially fewer and longer in between. But we still support that customer with any issues that he or she has concerning their purchase.

    Now that digital capture devices have matured we are finding that the lifetime of a digital back often extends to multiple owners. One back can now have 3-4 owners and still produce incredible imagery. The problem is that with each owner, that 120 day support cycle starts all over again. This was not an issue when we had a just a few customers, but now that we have sold units that total well over 1000 (yes, literally) these multiple ownerships puts a burden on our support staff that makes us unable to maintain profitability.

    Last year we implemented our support package for DB owners that did not purchase their DB from us. Quite a few customers find that the support from their reseller is not anywhere close to the support that we provide and they choose to have Capture Integration answer their questions and solve their problems. I gladly invite those customers to use us for their support. However, that support has a value and Capture Integration should be compensated for our expertise, experience, and problem solving.

    If we were B&H, then we can build a business model where support is non-existent and everyone knew that upfront. However, the Phase One product line and C1 Pro are products that will produce incredible results if used properly. And we believe that our support is a necessary part of this link. We charge $399 for unlimited technical support for endusers who did not purchase from us. I strongly feel that this amount for our level of support for the product is very modest and undervalued.

    It is important to know the distinction between warranty matters and technical support. We constantly help endusers with warranty issues, such as format swaps, that did not purchase the unit from us. Scott Hoerner from this forum is a prime example just last month. Warranty support was handled through CI on a back purchased elsewhere. But if or when a line is crossed to firmware updates, technical questions, or free replacement parts this is when we require endusers to become customers of ours before we proceed with support. Simply stated.

    On this forum and with all others, I will not get personal or discuss individual situations. Instead I will reiterate that my personal cell phone is always on and is available to anyone here that would like to discuss any of these matters with me. Guy and Jack, thank you for allowing us to be a part to this unique place. We do not take the privilege lightly. We appreciate you and this community greatly.

    Sincerely,

    Dave Gallagher
    President
    Capture Integration
    (404) 522-7662
    (770) 846-5223 Cell
    David

    This is one incredible response to so many otherwise negative commentaries. Not that there is anyone who is beyond how strongly they feel, but I promise you that three months ago, when the economy was good, no one would have been this railed about this subject

    I can totally imagine the difficulties associated with your business model. I can only hope that in these ensuing times that things have sorted out, at least a bit.

    I think that, prior to all the stuff in the market prior to this that there was little to complain about re Capture Integration v s anyone else. In fact I wish that i had bought into the Phase system compared to the hassy H3Dii and in particular with CI. My mistake.........not yours.

    Just a note that you guys are doing your deal. Now it is time for us to do ours as well

    God Bless

    Woody

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •