(New to MF) - Some very specific questions for the PROS

[maxshafiq]

Not really, no.

Sorry to be blunt, but you cannot say at the same time that buying at decent price is so difficult and that all sellers find it so difficult to get the price they want. This simply does not add up. Market, law of supply and demand, etc...

I don't know where you live. I live in Germany. If I want a second hand MF, I can get a second hand 50 mpix CCD for 7000€ and a second hand 39 mpix CCD for 3500€. That is the market, and the 39 mpix would be a perfect choice for someone wanting to try MF but not so sure about it.

Blunt is fine you are expressing your opinion.

Not sure if I expressed my opinion clearly or not...all I am saying is that if you go on the forums and look at the people selling the kits, they have been trying to sell them (not all but some) for an awfully long time. So maybe it is a buyers market

 

[aztwang]

Jerome

Thanks for your comments.

Wifi is an attraction but can I live without it? most likely


As for getting a used, well that is the route I was taking and it seems we are still looking at close to $9-$14 depending on where I buy from etc...on the other hand a new Hasselblad is closer to $10-$11K.

Then the question of resale. I am, seeing that people who already own the Phase backs and body's are having a pig of a time trying to sell at the price they want. I am seeing many ads for 645DF+ bodies selling in the $2000-$3500 range, and I know if I was to reverse and call a dealer up and say hay I am selling I will not get anything more than $900-$1200. So I am learning the resale market on these kits is terrible compared to DSLR camera's. Even those trying to sell lenses are having a tuff time.

If I buy I want to use and be happy first time around but that might be wishful thinking

Makes sense what I am saying?

You need to take in to consideration with the release of the new XF body and the initial offering of 2K trade in towards XF plus 2K off any lens and IQ 3 series incentives, that the DF/DF+ market is saturated with used bodies which of course has driven the price down.
As far as P1 products being hard to sell I would have to disagree. Yes the difference between new and used is quite large but if you do your homework and know where the market is you make your purchases accordingly. I think you need to be fair in your pricing and sell to the right markets. I sold an IQ160 and got exactly what I wanted for it, $13,500 and my associate in So. Cal listed his IQ180 and sold it for $16500. Both transactions were in the last 45 days. I know of several others that brought similar money. I think one has to be patient and don't expect to sell your MFD gear in a few days as the target market is a bit smaller than DSLR markets. It is what it is and each brand has its advantages and disadvantages ....which one works for your style, taste and workflow????...(OH and Wifi...I LOVE IT!)...then go buy it and take many many images, prosper and be happy!!!

 

[DougDolde]

You know, one thing that makes the IQ140 not such a great choice is that the Nikon D810 has just as good resolution with Zeiss lenses. Going to a 60 or preferably 80 megapixel back is the only way to really reach way beyond 35mm DSLR territory. That probably would include the Pentax 645Z but it wasn't my choice. The IQ180 is what I picked and its every bit as good as the hype about it.

 

[fotografz]

You really didn't talk about what and how you shoot in detail, but I think some of that can be inferred by the questions you asked. However, it really does depend on specific factors like what sort of studio environment you have access to (including strobe equipment and modifiers); what sort of subjects you love to photograph; whether you live in an outdoor area where the sun is frequently a larger factor than other places may exhibit; etc., etc.

MF Background: It's been a Saga, so skip if you wish

My MF experience has been pretty long ... starting with the classic V camera using an Imacon back, then a CFV back, a full Contax 645 system with a Kodak 645C digital back, RZ Pro-II and Mamiya 645 with a 33 meg Leaf Aptus 7s digital back ... then migrated to the H Digital through the H4D/40 and 60, and used a Rollie 6X9 studio camera with full movements and a Hasselblad 39 meg MultiShot back. These were all used for both professional and personal applications: (industrial, corporate, advertising lifestyle and product, travel, portrait ... (even weddings and events because I already had the MF gear so why not use it?).

All the above is now gone. My choice of MF kit is now the Leica S system.

In tandem with these MF solutions, I kept pace with 35mm systems: Canon Pro cameras and 5 series cameras, Nikon Pro series camera up to 24 meg FF, then Sony from the FF 24 meg A900 to the 36 meg FF A7R, and I just did a test shoot with the FF 43 meg Sony A7R-II.

Experiential Conclusion: In the eye of this beholder when the meg count was the same or similar between MF and 35mm, MF always won. Always. This doesn't factor in high ISO, but I personally believe high ISO is some sort of a compromise in IQ regardless of camera used. Speed of operation and higher ISO available light work is the only reason I had a 35mm kit ... mostly for weddings. All I know is that in most cases (not all), higher ISOs usually means bad light, and being able to shoot in it doesn't alter that it is still bad light. So, I try to time shoots in better light, or I use lighting.

Answers/Opinions:

True Focus: yes, dramatic as it may seem it was/is revolutionary for MF. In theory the subject nor you can move, in practice using the rear TF focus thumb button and proper technique it is so fast to do that it rarely misses unless you have vertigo or the subject is an on-coming race car Composition is the big winner with TF ... it promotes exploration of dramatic compositions ... you can TF and then instantly place a focal point anywhere in the viewfinder, even at the very edge of the frame, and it's bang on. Love it a lot, and sorely miss it with my current kit.

Tethered: MF or 35mm, absolutely Fabulous way to work ... I shoot to a 27" 5K Retnia screen in studio. Prop-masters, stylists, and make-up artists can see exactly what is happening on set, I can check composition, critical focus, and relative DOF at a glance; art directors, corporate brand managers keep informed and provide feed-back, or regular portrait clients can see results instantly ... 27" or 30" screen trumps 3" every time. Heck even a 15" laptop wins. Also, during breaks, you can instantly tweak a select shot in the software, or double check that you have enough background for the layout or print size, etc.

Tethered is the best Teaching/Learning tool ever IMO. All the subtile lighting nuances are there to see, so refining the shot or your technique is a no-brainer.

Sync Speed: high sync speed without the loss of lighting power that the typical pulsed HSS sacrifices is essential to me. Never had much of an issue with 1/800th sync (or my current 1/1000 with the S system and CS lenses). Not sure how Phase One accomplishes 1/1600 but I believe that you needed the grip with the Profoto module (maybe the new P1 camera has it in the body now) ... BUT is is a Profoto module as far as I know ... so, do you have Profoto lighting? Most strobe systems top out at 1/500 sync ... to breach 1/500 you have to set the standard Profoto AIR transceiver to the "speed setting" for up to 1/1000 sync. Maybe Doug can comment on how P1 accomplishes the proprietary 1/1600 sync without some vignetting effect from the circular leaf-shutter?

The Contax camera was wonderful in its' day, and the current Pentax digital camera is a sweet deal, but would never work for me because I want ALL of my lenses to be leaf-shutter. The advantage of the later P1 Kits and the Leica S system is that, with the right lenses, they can be used with leaf shutter for high sync speed, or as a focal plane shutter camera to 1/4000 in brighter available light with open apertures.

In either case, for this advantage you will pay through the nose ... including harvesting all of your organs, and sacrificing your first born. If you buy new, you better have large nostrils to pay through. Do not expect to get any of those harvested organs back later either. Resale is dismal, so the real value of MF is strictly in the using ... and frequently using ... preferably with a pay check, tax write offs, commercial usage fees at the end.

Meg count: depends on your end game. The Hasselblad CCD 40 meg camera is fine to ISO 800 and with exposure care to 1600. Modern software is much better than old when it comes to noise control. The Hasselblad CCD noise is more pleasant like in character than noise from the 35mm cameras I've used. 60 meg was great, and I think is decent compromise between usability and improved IQ ... plus it is a larger chunk of real-estate compared to the 40 or the newer 50 CMOS sensors. I never used a 80 meg, so cannot comment.

I still like CCD sensors over CMOS ... and nothing has come along that has changed my take on the subject. Luddite. Neanderthal. Whatever. My work, my call.

Reco:

Run. Hide. Lay down until the urge passes. Once you enter the Inferno ... "Abandon hope all ye who enter here". MF is a financial sink hole, a money pit the size of the Grand Canyon. The term "restraint" is a concept that flies out the window (along with your money).

My observation is there are two basic groups of MF buyers:

One that dreams of all the wonderful stuff MF can deliver, but lacks the will/time/discipline/patience to actually realize it ... so the stuff gathers dust, they complain about crappy residual value, and they get out sooner than later, buy a higher meg 35mm FF for a LOT less money and spend a lot of time and words trying to evangelize that it is as good as MFD:thumbdown:

The other realizes all those wonders, see the differences others can't, revels in using such gear, loves all the rewards from their steadfast learning the techniques, and adores the end results of their patience and self-control ... but often find themselves at the bottom of the financial sink hole:facesmack:

- Marc

 

[jotloob]

Very wise words . :thumbs: Thank you Marc .

 

[MrSmith]

"One that dreams of all the wonderful stuff MF can deliver, but lacks the will/time/discipline/patience to actually realize it ... so the stuff gathers dust, they complain about crappy residual value, and they get out sooner than later, buy a higher meg 35mm FF for a LOT less money and spend a lot of time and words trying to evangelize that it is as good as MFD

The other realizes all those wonders, see the differences others can't, revels in using such gear, loves all the rewards from their steadfast learning the techniques, and adores the end results of their patience and self-control ... but often find themselves at the bottom of the financial sink hole"

there’s a third. working photographers who have shot on just about everything from 10x8 down to 35mm film and early 22mp (the first viable digital imho) to 39 and beyond plus the new high mp full frame 35mm cameras and have settled on high quality lenses and a versatile changeable system for their shooting needs and to keep clients happy. i like to see a healthy ‘comfort fund’ than spend money on MFD for little gain for my business. i have cambo/sony/schneider and rodenstock to thank for that.
i’m too old and cynical to fall for dealer/pusher talk of ‘magic’ etc, ease of use, high quality, happy bank balance and returning customers matter more than a sensor bigger than 35mm.

good luck with scratching your itch though, i’m sure Doug has a special snake oil ointment for that

 

[Jeffery Salter]

Thanks Marc. Great post.

 

[jagsiva]

Reco:

Run. Hide. Lay down until the urge passes. Once you enter the Inferno ... "Abandon hope all ye who enter here". MF is a financial sink hole, a money pit the size of the Grand Canyon. The term "restraint" is a concept that flies out the window (along with your money).

Well said. My tech lens strategy has been to buy the best quality/most expensive ones around, since I'll only be buying a handful of focal lengths, then filling the gaps with every other tech lens available!!!

 

[dougpeterson]

Sync Speed: high sync speed without the loss of lighting power that the typical pulsed HSS sacrifices is essential to me. Never had much of an issue with 1/800th sync (or my current 1/1000 with the S system and CS lenses). Not sure how Phase One accomplishes 1/1600 but I believe that you needed the grip with the Profoto module (maybe the new P1 camera has it in the body now) ... BUT is is a Profoto module as far as I know ... so, do you have Profoto lighting? Most strobe systems top out at 1/500 sync ... to breach 1/500 you have to set the standard Profoto AIR transceiver to the "speed setting" for up to 1/1000 sync. Maybe Doug can comment on how P1 accomplishes the proprietary 1/1600 sync without some vignetting effect from the circular leaf-shutter?

Short Answer:
You can use the 1/1600th sync with any brand/make/model of light by using a hard cable, or a wireless transmitter that supports sync at that speed (PocketWizard does not).


Long Answer...

The IP behind the technology is proprietary so I can't describe it in detail here but the net effect is 1/1600th max native flash sync.

The important thing to remember here is that Phase One provides the capacity to sync up to 1/1600th. Whether or not the rest of the chain can also take advantage of this speed is a separate question and falls into two categories:
- Flash Duration: If the flash duration is fairly slow, like t0.1 = 1/800th of a second, then only the first half or so of the flash will be scene meaning you'll lose about a stop of light and the white balance may shift slightly. For most modern high-end flash systems this isn't a limitation, but for some it will be. Note you can still use a combination that has such a limitation (e.g. an older Profoto Acute flash at full power); it's just you'll need to "meter" the light by examining the LCD, histogram, exposure warning, exposure clipping indicator or exposure heat map, since a hand-held light meter will not take into account the fact that only part of the flash curve will be seen.
- Communication Method: Some wireless transmitters max out at a certain speed of communication. For instance a standard Pocketwizard Plus III transceiver is limited to 1/500th sync speed, presenting a limitation for either the Phase, Hassy, or Leica platforms (which can sync up to 1/1600th, 1/800th, and 1/1000th respectively). Used above their max speed they may still trigger the flash, but you may not see all or any of the light in the exposure. Using a hard sync (a cable between camera and light) solves this problem, as does using a wireless transmitter system that uses a fast enough protocol to handle 1/1600th. The Profoto Air protocol can handle 1/1600th; a Profoto Air transmitter is built into the XF body and there is an optional vertical grip for the DF+ that includes a Profoto Air transmitter. If you're using Profoto Air lighting (e.g. Profoto D1 Air) that's all you need. If you use other brands of lighting you can use a Profoto Air Receiver in the same way you'd use a PocketWizard receiver, and you'll still sync at 1/1600th. For instance if you own Dynalite lighting and an XF body you'd simply plug an Air receiver into the Dynalite and the Air transmitter built into the XF would trigger the Dynalite lights at up to 1/1600th of a second. I believe the Broncolor RFS2 transmitter will also sync at 1/1600th, but I am not an expert on Broncolor lighting. Other brands/makes/models of transmitters may or may not sync at 1/1600th; generally this specification is listed on their spec sheet.

 

[dougpeterson]

I will look at the Contax 645 too but isn't it built on the same body as Mamiya/P1 645? My ignorance without doing ay research :-(

The Contax 645 was a lovely system with some stand out lenses and simple robust design.

It's an entirely different platform and would require a back with a different mount (C mount) than one that could be used for an XF or DF (M mount).

Generally if someone owns and loves a Contax I advise them to strongly consider both options: a Contax-mount digital back (keeping their Contax gear) or switching platforms to something more modern (XF or H). But generally if someone is starting from scratch (does not own any medium format bodies/lenses) I do not advise going down the Contax route. The body has been out of production for quite some time, repairs are becoming increasingly difficult, and the future of the system is increasing obscurity. The flash sync (1/125th) of the Contax is also a major limitation for those looking to MF for faster flash sync.

 

[CSP]

i’m too old and cynical to fall for dealer/pusher talk of ‘magic’ etc, ease of use, high quality, happy bank balance and returning customers matter more than a sensor bigger than 35mm.

+1

 

[Michiel Schierbeek]

You know, one thing that makes the IQ140 not such a great choice is that the Nikon D810 has just as good resolution with Zeiss lenses. Going to a 60 or preferably 80 megapixel back is the only way to really reach way beyond 35mm DSLR territory. That probably would include the Pentax 645Z but it wasn't my choice. The IQ180 is what I picked and its every bit as good as the hype about it.

The Pentax 645Z wasn't your choice and it is very probably better then Nikon D810 even with the holy Zeiss lenses. Especially the new Pentax 645 lenses are very, very good.

 

[maxshafiq]

Marc,

I laughed so hard after reading your post that I nearly fell off my chair...Lots of interesting facts and funny analogies

You are right in that I did not mention much about my shooting style. I try and shoot in day light as much as possible, I live in Sunny Florida and there is a reason why they call it Sunny! Even today November 17 it is 84F/20C.

I own Profoto stores. Other than that my favorite outdoor shoot is editorial/fashion. I shoot 90% of the time outdoor and 10% in Studio.

Hope that helps

 

[maxshafiq]

"One that dreams of all the wonderful stuff MF can deliver, but lacks the will/time/discipline/patience to actually realize it ... so the stuff gathers dust, they complain about crappy residual value, and they get out sooner than later, buy a higher meg 35mm FF for a LOT less money and spend a lot of time and words trying to evangelize that it is as good as MFD

The other realizes all those wonders, see the differences others can't, revels in using such gear, loves all the rewards from their steadfast learning the techniques, and adores the end results of their patience and self-control ... but often find themselves at the bottom of the financial sink hole"

there’s a third. working photographers who have shot on just about everything from 10x8 down to 35mm film and early 22mp (the first viable digital imho) to 39 and beyond plus the new high mp full frame 35mm cameras and have settled on high quality lenses and a versatile changeable system for their shooting needs and to keep clients happy. i like to see a healthy ‘comfort fund’ than spend money on MFD for little gain for my business. i have cambo/sony/schneider and rodenstock to thank for that.
i’m too old and cynical to fall for dealer/pusher talk of ‘magic’ etc, ease of use, high quality, happy bank balance and returning customers matter more than a sensor bigger than 35mm.

good luck with scratching your itch though, i’m sure Doug has a special snake oil ointment for that

Thank you for your input. I am 100% sure each dealer has his own version of the snake ointment and yes they are trying to rub it on me...lol

 

[maxshafiq]

The Pentax 645Z wasn't your choice and it is very probably better then Nikon D810 even with the holy Zeiss lenses. Especially the new Pentax 645 lenses are very, very good.

I am looking at this system too...

Thx for the suggestion.

 

[fotografz]

Marc,

I laughed so hard after reading your post that I nearly fell off my chair...Lots of interesting facts and funny analogies

You are right in that I did not mention much about my shooting style. I try and shoot in day light as much as possible, I live in Sunny Florida and there is a reason why they call it Sunny! Even today November 17 it is 84F/20C.

I own Profoto stores. Other than that my favorite outdoor shoot is editorial/fashion. I shoot 90% of the time outdoor and 10% in Studio.

Hope that helps

I'm also in Florida ... spend winters (snowbird) on the Gulf coast ... we've been having record or near record temps and a ton of sunshine:thumbs: Have a modest in-home studio with 15' ceilings and some portable Profoto lighting for the outdoor stuff. Just got here last winter, so I'm still feeling my way around ... looking for support staff, hair & makeup, modeling sources, prop masters, etc. Nothing big, as I'm now semi-retired.

So, it appears you have access to some good lighting choices to balance out the abundant sun. I think almost any MFD solution that can provide HSS will get you there, so it's just what feels right. The Profoto HSS firmware update could be fine with a Canon or Nikon high meg camera ... but even that may not be enough for some of this nuke light here.

For fashion I'd lean toward the H5D/40 which tweaked the True Focus and is faster to use over-all ... Lenses: HC-50/3.5-II, 100/2.2, 150N/3.2, and the often overlooked HC-210/4 (great for head shots). Or just the HCD-35-90 Zoom which unlike the Leica S-30-90 zoom is still a leaf-shutter lens.

- Marc

 

[DougDolde]

If you are anything like me you don't want to die with any money left over.

Thats why I bought the IQ180, 40-80mm Schneider, and a few other lenses. XF on order.

See, I didn't follow my own Contax 645 advice but probably could get just as good images with the Contax.

 

[maxshafiq]

If you are anything like me you don't want to die with any money left over.

Thats why I bought the IQ180, 40-80mm Schneider, and a few other lenses. XF on order.

Too funny and yes that's me...lol

 

[maxshafiq]

One question for you kind folks out there...There does not seem to be a lot of information out there on the H5X and when I do find something it is being referred to as a Backup camera. Is that because it is just no-good enough (of inferior quality) to be the main camera? Just curious...

Still researching my options

 

[epforever]

One question for you kind folks out there...There does not seem to be a lot of information out there on the H5X and when I do find something it is being referred to as a Backup camera. Is that because it is just no-good enough (of inferior quality) to be the main camera? Just curious...

Still researching my options

Not at all. That's absurd. It's a great camera, great quality, great build. Walk into a shop and get your hands on one. You'll see. Tons of photographers use it as their main camera. Before the XF came out (which a friend of mine is having a hard time actually getting), I'd say the H4x and H5x were the top high-end pro choice as a camera body, since you can put Phase backs on them.

You're over-researching. Go try them out, compare bodies, compare files.