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Preferred method of 'seeing' with tech cams

tjv

Active member
Like Anders Torger, I use a Linhof Techno with sliding back and bright ground glass to compose and focus with my Credo 60. Despite my initial reservations about the large size of the sliding back and small size of the image area on the GG (relative to 4x5" that I'm used to) I really like working this way. I use the Linhof Studio 12x loupe and it's easy to nail focus, although more difficult on extreme shifts. I demoed the CFV-50c before I got my Credo 60 to see how the live view worked–it worked very well–but for some reason I felt that looking at the screen on the back somehow removed me from the scene. I just wasn't used to the process of working that way.
 

Pelorus

Member
I've just been through this. I bought an Alpa STC and SK48 Apo-Helvetar. The kit came with the optical viewfinder and the iPhone bracket. I've used each of those about once.

I use the Alpa eFinder which is exactly the same app, except for camera choices, as the Artists' Viewfinder. I hand hold it to check out the scene and AOV and then I take the shot. If I need to readjust and take another shot...well I do. It's not film and it's not going to wear out appreciably taking another shot.

Increasingly I just eyeball it, including for shifts or rise/fall. You will get to know your set up quite quickly. Initially the workflow seems quite ponderous, but soon enough you realise you actually have the world's best point and shoot camera!

When I bought the kit I was convinced I would need the optical viewfinder etc that came with it...
 

DougDolde

Well-known member
Precisely why I sold mine. Too hard to frame accurately. And with the new Phase One lenses (35mm and 40-80mm) who needs a tech cam? Well maybe if you are into to shift and stitch but I am not.
 

Geoff

Well-known member
Agree with much of the above. Have shot both with sliding back and GG, happily. Also have shot with nothing but a sense,and just approximating. The good news is that with digital, the shots are free, so I just keep adjusting and composing until its satisfactory.

As to when to use which technique, that's not quite so easy. The ground glass and sliding back is really good for control, such as serious studio type work, and some stitching. . OTOH, shooting by sense, and just chimping works well for a looser, freer way of shooting, and has its advantages too. I guess both work well. It probably has to do with the hassle of the stitching back and moving around - so if freedom to move is key, then a back directly mounted is more critical than the ground glass.

As to which one you'll prefer, probably won't be clear until after shooting with your tech camera for a while. Hard to predict. As noted above, be wary about getting too much gear upfront, as it often sits unused.
 

weinlamm

Member
I use the viewfinder.

I thought a time about buying a iphone-holder (+ a iphone; yes - I don't have one til today :loco:). Someday I had spoken with this guy, who brought me to think about the iphone-holder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV9460Lcuqg

I'm shooting mostly Panorama, so it's nearly the same situation as in the video. But he told me, that's not really fun. The iphone runs out of power very often and it's not perfect, too. So if you know some day your gear it's 'nearly' the same.

Ok. That's my experience, too. It's mostly possible to shoot good Panorma without any tool (love to shoot 3xP20 = format 2:1 after stiching). My most effective tool is the spirit level on the camera. :thumbup:
 

fmueller

Active member
I actually have the Moment Wide already ..and I was looking at picking up the 6+.

Do you think it's worth simply enabling wifi, composing with the phone via MII AV, and then using that same screen to review? Does that app indicate shift, too?
The app does show shifts and parallax corrections of course the usefulness of the latter dependent on a precise mounting on the tech cam. I can't speak to the wifi issue since I don't have a back with that feature.
 

fmueller

Active member
Precisely why I sold mine. Too hard to frame accurately. And with the new Phase One lenses (35mm and 40-80mm) who needs a tech cam? Well maybe if you are into to shift and stitch but I am not.
I have a DF+ with SK45 and an 80.

For the tech cam I have a Rodenstock 40 and 70. I was thunderstruck at how much better the Rodenstock's are compared to the SK lenses for the DF and how little LCC correction is needed. Using a Credo 60. All that being said, I don't earn a living with my camera and I'm not doing portraits...YMMV.
 

cnabbott

New member
I have a Cambo WRS 600 which has a built in sliding back so I frame/focus on ground glass without having to remove and replace the DB. That said after the initial compositions fine tuning is done by "feel" and checking on the SP3.
 

Ken_R

New member
Before my WRS 1200/Rod. 40TS arrives (I've got a 380 back) I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row so I can hit the ground running. For ~$1000 I can pick up a viewfinder, mask and Leica D2 and take my iPad along for the ride. For possibly the same amount (give or take) I can pick up a Surface Pro.. which is what I think a lot of people have been gravitating towards lately.

What is everyone's 'preferred' method? If I never plan on shooting handheld, is anything lost from not having the viewfinder? Is it worth getting both?

..Does anyone shoot without either?

Input greatly appreciated.
I own a IQ160 and an RM3Di Arca w/ the Rodenstock HR-W 40mm and 70mm lenses and even though I have the optical external Arca Swiss viewfinder which is awesome most of the time I do not use it. After a while you get used to the angle of view of your lens/back combination and generally can setup and then use the live view to fine tune the composition. I do however walk around with the viewfinder in my hand first some times (before taking the camera out) looking for shots but most times I just look with my bare eyes. I find the rudimentary live view of the IQ160 more than usable for composing images. It is really an awesome tool to have.

Also, forgot to mention that I also own the ground glass for the body but never use it. I have the back mounted on a rotamount so I can rotate the back without ever removing it. Generally I have the camera all setup in my bag with the back and 40mm lens mounted and ready to go.

Also of note is that the Rodenstock 40mm lens is STUNNING. Best lens I have ever used. Period. Well, I have played with some Cooke and Arri cine lenses which are also superb but this Rodenstock is basically close to flawless.
 

Bryan Stephens

Workshop Member
Also of note is that the Rodenstock 40mm lens is STUNNING. Best lens I have ever used. Period. Well, I have played with some Cooke and Arri cine lenses which are also superb but this Rodenstock is basically close to flawless.
It was my favorite lens to use on my Cambo with the IQ180 and IQ260. :thumbs:
 

danlindberg

Well-known member
I shoot mainly without any kind of aid at all. I compose freely and this includes with shift. I love this kind of purity and do not feel hampered at all, not by precision and not by speed.
However, I sometimes cheat....and bring the sportsfinder. Weighs nothing is more accurate than you might think.

 

Don Libby

Well-known member
I used a Cambo WRS for a little over 8-years until just this past month when I decided to leave it for the new XF. That said here's a little of my experiences "seeing" with a tech camera...

I remember that my biggest fear was just that; how was I going to "see" the scene as I set it up. In the early days I used a combination of groundglass and viewfinder and very quickly found I really didn't need either. Since the majority of my work is landscape I found that I was able to visualize what I wanted just using my eyes head close to the top of the WRS and I sold both.

A couple years later Cambo came out with a slightly better groundglass that I used for about a year before that too was sold and I reverted to my tried and true method of "seeing".

Then I had a conversation with Ken Doo on day shortly before the first Surface was released with both of us agreeing that this could very well be a game changer for tethering to a Phase IQ series back. Turns out we were correct. I used first a SP2 and then the larger SP3 to tether my IQ180/WRS running C1 and was very pleased. In the beginning I used it well over 80% of the time I broke out the WRS and later on about 50% of the time depending of the location and other circumstances.

The best advise I can give is practice, practice and more practice using nothing more than your naked tech camera (no viewfinders or groundglass or for that matter tethered). I found I quickly developed a work habit of 3-captures; one dead center of where I wanted, and one slightly off to either side (could be side or top and bottom depending on the location). Using all 3-files and cropping down to what I wanted to portray saved a bunch of money of groundglass and viewfinders.

Hope this helps some and good luck.

Don
 

tjv

Active member
A related topic...

How do people previsualise stitched images? I do a lot of 6x12 stitched panoramics and often wondered if other camera systems have GG setups with large enough surface area and making for this? Do people just use the iPhone app thing mentioned above, or what?
 
A related topic...

How do people previsualise stitched images? I do a lot of 6x12 stitched panoramics and often wondered if other camera systems have GG setups with large enough surface area and making for this? Do people just use the iPhone app thing mentioned above, or what?
I think the viewfinder shows you what shifting will achieve.
 

dchew

Well-known member
A related topic...

How do people previsualise stitched images? I do a lot of 6x12 stitched panoramics and often wondered if other camera systems have GG setups with large enough surface area and making for this? Do people just use the iPhone app thing mentioned above, or what?
This is why I sometimes carry the GG. It is the only way I know of in the field to see the stitched image. You can get close with apps like the Alpa eFinder, but the GG tells you exactly what you will get. I don't always need to see the completed stitched image, but occasionally it helps me. Three masks with the STC and a 40x54 sensor: 40x54, 54x76 and 40x90 (max shift 18mm each way).

Dave
 

Geoff

Well-known member
This is why I sometimes carry the GG. It is the only way I know of in the field to see the stitched image. You can get close with apps like the Alpa eFinder, but the GG tells you exactly what you will get. I don't always need to see the completed stitched image, but occasionally it helps me. Three masks with the STC and a 40x54 sensor: 40x54, 54x76 and 40x90 (max shift 18mm each way).

Dave
Try a stitching back. There are a few - Linhof makes two or three, but two aftermarket ones are by Kapture Group and Silvestri. The KG has a large GG and very bright, the Silvestri more secure interlocks. On the KG, you pick which stitching boundary you want from the GG (such as two vertical, three vertical, two horiz.), adjust a knob, and slide it till it clicks. All pretty easy. For pre visualizing, it is quite good and easy to use.

Both have replaceable mounts both for the camera and the back.

Really good in studio, nice for slow landscape, not so fast for moving around a lot. Just another piece of gear to be mounted.
 
I use the same kind of method as Dan on this one. I prefer to feel my composition and do it freely. I've tried using viewfinders and found they take away from the unique feeling of using a tech camera, and sometimes make it even harder to compose.
 

tjv

Active member
Thanks Geoff,
I have the Linhof sliding back and their new bright GG. Both are great and I really like them, but the bright GG is only marginally bigger than the single frame Dalsa 60 sensor size (it has markings for both orientations with about 5mm of space outside each. I really like it, save for the inability to see easily a stitched 6x12 panoramic landscape frame. I might need to upgrade my horribly slow iPhone 4 and get that iPhone app and accessory lens...

Try a stitching back. There are a few - Linhof makes two or three, but two aftermarket ones are by Kapture Group and Silvestri. The KG has a large GG and very bright, the Silvestri more secure interlocks. On the KG, you pick which stitching boundary you want from the GG (such as two vertical, three vertical, two horiz.), adjust a knob, and slide it till it clicks. All pretty easy. For pre visualizing, it is quite good and easy to use.

Both have replaceable mounts both for the camera and the back.

Really good in studio, nice for slow landscape, not so fast for moving around a lot. Just another piece of gear to be mounted.
 

torger

Active member
Thanks Geoff,
I have the Linhof sliding back and their new bright GG. Both are great and I really like them, but the bright GG is only marginally bigger than the single frame Dalsa 60 sensor size (it has markings for both orientations with about 5mm of space outside each. I really like it, save for the inability to see easily a stitched 6x12 panoramic landscape frame.
I tried a KG back with maxwell optics side by side with the Linhof a couple of days ago. I envy the small size of the KG back, but there's some play in it due nylon strip sliders rather than pressurizing felt + metal against metal like in the Linhof back, and the Maxwell Optics glass while bright it's lacking resolution (and even smaller than Linhof's), considerably more difficult to focus peak than the Linhof GG. My guess is that the best GG on the market is Linhof's, but it's unfortunately also the most expensive...

Anyway, I assume you only occasionally shoot 6x12, and as it's stitched the process is quite slow. Then maybe you could also temporarily swap ground glass to the standard one with its large surface and stitch markings. It won't be as bright though, but maybe it's better than guessing the sides?
 
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