voidshatter
Member
Well said. I'd like to see a full frame BSI Sony CMOS compatible with the Schneider 28mm XL lens
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The H5D-50c is now available at just £9,795
- Thread starter MrSmith
- Start date
I really hope for that too, but the scarce reports I've heard from the A7r-II (which is BSI) has not improved my hopes on what BSI can do for us. It seems like much of the old problems are still there also with that incarnation of BSI, although I've not yet seen a thorough analysis with LCC shots raws etc.Well said. I'd like to see a full frame BSI Sony CMOS compatible with the Schneider 28mm XL lens
Hopefully we'll get at least some improvement to the next generation. I think full-frame will be too expensive to me, but on the other hand I also think that full-frame is not that important for a tech cam. A 44x33mm CMOS BSI sensor with half-decent angular response with mostly 70mm IC Rodenstock Digaron-S lenses I currently see as the most likely (least unlikely) upgrade path for me after my all-Schneider Digitar + Hassy 50MP CCD combo I have today. Unfortunately I no longer see it as likely that CMOS will support the wide angle Digitars in reasonable time, but I hope I'm wrong. I really like my Digitars with warts an all. The Rodies are a bit bulky so I probably would have to reduce my lens count. Movement range will be a bit reduced too due to the 70mm IC even if the sensor is a bit smaller, but I think I can live with that.
I'm probably not going for a full-frame CCD, I don't see that as a meaningful upgrade from my current system. But if second hand prices drop to levels I can't refuse after full-frame CMOS is released I might go that way too....
T.Dascalos
Not Available
I don't think that there will ever be a larger Sony sensor than the one existing now... What most haven't realized is that Sony didn't design this sensor as to be used on MF cameras... The use of the sensor on MF cameras is just a consequence because of its size... The sensor is fully compatible with 8K pro video (8184 rows of pixels needed) as to be used with large format video... So Sony does have their large sensor video offering... A larger Cmos (if it comes) it will be from another maker... Another reason why I believe that Hasselblad is moving to exclusive to them sensors (most probably in collaboration with a high end video maker - probably Arri) as it can be concluded from the contract agreement they had with Arri when supplied their lens line for their top camera...Well said. I'd like to see a full frame BSI Sony CMOS compatible with the Schneider 28mm XL lens
It looks that video will play a big role into the future of MF makers... The sooner a maker has foreseen this (Leica seems to aim for hybrid designs and are constantly developing cinema lenses), the better his position in the future... Those who will ignore this, will unfortunately vanish... and I think some are already late... (they think that Hasselblad's recent partnership was done for Hasselblad to be used on ...drones). Indeed, some makers (and their customers) seem to be...
I've heard rumors that full-frame prototypes have already been tested.... but well, we'll see. I think Sony will make it, and the reason is that CMOS manufacturing technology has progressed such that not the same amount of volume is required to make a larger size than before. But I don't actually know any of this, so I just sit and wait curiously.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
I think that it is wrong to look at the large sensor market by thinking in terms of MFDB makers or MF photography... Both Arri & Red are now using sensors with more than 50mm width of which the origin is unknown to us... The motion picture studio market is of far more importance than MF photography will ever be... Don't be surprised if during the next 5 years, Large sensor market (larger than FF) will exceed 100K sensors annually... A blog buster motion picture has a budget of some hundreds of millions and its only for one motion picture... That is more than all the MF makers cost together to buy them all... Now the imaging and processing technology used by those studios is far beyond our requirements from large sensors...
What one can safely predict, is that there will be no other sensor maker than Sony providing large sensors for makers to use... But OTOH, makers don't want to share the same sensor with other makers as it creates direct competition... The main reason why P1 advanced over Hasselblad in the past years, is because they succeeded to have Dalsa making a sensor (the 80mp one) exclusive to them and provided sensor + tech again exclusively for them... Now that Sony provided (much better) sensors at much lower prices, the game returned back where it was before Dalsa provided exclusive to P1 service... In Leica they have been working hard as to dismount them selves from sharing common with the rest sensors and they've managed to find a path towards pro, hybrid still/video hi-end requirements, as they seem to be catching up quickly... In Hasselblad, they also seem to dismount from Kodak and Dalsa and have collaborated with Arri 14 months ago and now with DJI... I would expect that through their past year collaborations, they'll manage to have access for large modern high end sensors... Pentax will stick with Sony (that's for sure)... That makes three of them with a clear future... (Leica, Hasselblad & Pentax).... The question is then, will P1 be able to cope? Have they been working as to have access to high end sensors and the technology required for the hybrid future? or they just warming up the same old food again and again and expect people to re-consume it?
voidshatter
Member
What else do you think will feature the new fullframe (or larger than 44x33mm) CMOS sensor? I was hoping to see an enlarged version of IMX161 (IQ250) or the sensor used in A7R-II.I don't think that there will ever be a larger Sony sensor than the one existing now... What most haven't realized is that Sony didn't design this sensor as to be used on MF cameras... The use of the sensor on MF cameras is just a consequence because of its size... The sensor is fully compatible with 8K pro video (8184 rows of pixels needed) as to be used with large format video... So Sony does have their large sensor video offering... A larger Cmos (if it comes) it will be from another maker... Another reason why I believe that Hasselblad is moving to exclusive to them sensors (most probably in collaboration with a high end video maker - probably Arri) as it can be concluded from the contract agreement they had with Arri when supplied their lens line for their top camera...
It looks that video will play a big role into the future of MF makers... The sooner a maker has foreseen this (Leica seems to aim for hybrid designs and are constantly developing cinema lenses), the better his position in the future... Those who will ignore this, will unfortunately vanish... and I think some are already late... (they think that Hasselblad's recent partnership was done for Hasselblad to be used on ...drones). Indeed, some makers (and their customers) seem to be...
T.Dascalos
Not Available
Sensors feature whatever the maker of the camera is able to apply on them... Take Pentax for instance... they use a sensor with 8K (or 4K by binning rows) video ability and only offer some useless video just to put it in the specs... Obviously one doesn't buy technology with the sensor... he either has the know how (or has access to it) or develops it, or goes to the other side and ignores it completely...
Hmm... the only medium format digital film camera I know of is one from Arri, and it's not like they're selling it in numbers, it's a monster you rent for very specialized types of filming (they are very demanding to film with!), I didn't think those type of cameras was serial built at all. So I've assumed MFD still photography still is the major market for larger than 135 photography, and I haven't heard otherwise except from Theodoros... but then again I'm not following the video market that much.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
The Alexa 65 (Arri) uses 54.12 width sensor (Hasselblad H lenses), the Red "Weapon Dragon 8k" uses 41mm width sensor and the two Vision Research, (the Phantom 65 & the Fantom flex) use 52mm sensor... There are some conclusions one may withdraw from the above...
1. All of them have different sensors to each other.
2. The sensors are made exclusive for them under order (by who?), so that the camera maker can apply his technology.
3. The sensors are made by different makers under specs for each different camera maker (as to avoid tech leakage).
To your surprise sales are not low at all... Other than this is major equipment for the major studios, the companies run rental service world wide as for the thousands of movies to be made every year... and then, a movie can't be done with one or two or three cameras and set of lenses... The end conclusion is: A. The sensors are getting bigger in cinema by the year with MF size CMOS at the top end of them, B. These sensors "run" for tens of thousands of hours each year to serve an industry that its magnitude is in the kind of hundreds of billions world wide... I hope you get the picture...
One more thing... the fact that Sony hasn't use the sensor yet on a camera of their own, doesn't mean that they made it for MF cameras... It simply means that they won't release the camera unless it is up to compete with the above... (a very wise thing to do...).
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voidshatter
Member
Do you mean IMX161 may well be used in the successor of the current F65 when Sony needs to have an answer for competition from ARRI 8k and RED 8k? 44x33mm isn't that big at all if compared against the 52mm sensor you mentioned above. If Hasselblad can secure a larger CMOS sensor exclusive to them, then Phase One will have a bad time...
T.Dascalos
Not Available
How can I possibly know the answer?
It doesn't work like that with motion pictures... The sensors aren't like with film where the director chose the film size that would suit him... What happens with cinema now, is that the pixel size is chosen first as to suit the technology and the lens analysis that is to partnered with and then, the size depends on the number of rows needed for 8k or 6k or whatever... Take for instance the Sony sensor under discussion, if one counts the rows, he'll find that are optimum for 8k video (+ smth negligible but essential to exist), but if you count the height, you'll find that is perfect for 6k video... So that Sony may then crop the sensor and use the height as base in another (smaller) version...
An obvious conclusion....
EDIT: And judging from the pricing policy they apply, where they seem to put the Sony sensor as entrance to the firm product (at entrance price), but also that they price all the rest so that they won't sell... and if one adds to that the Arri contract 14 months ago (which none knows what was signed in return of supplying the lenses) and the recent partnership with DJI (which is used on most movies in the film industry) they may not be at the process as to secure a sensor... they may have it already ready! ...Otherwise why do they apply the policy of "cleaning up the past" if they haven't timed the replacement?
Mind that Leica is improving their Video performance (obviously because they work hard on the matter) for each next product (clearly aiming to enter motion picture pro quality) and they have secure their (unknown) supplier of MF sensors for the 007 long ago...
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voidshatter
Member
Do you think the sensor used in Leica S 007 can necessarily do 8k video (7500 x 5000) at 60 fps or above, with sufficient readout throughput? Possibly due to processing power limitations the S 007 itself can only do 4k (4096 x 2160) in a cropped area (supposedly Super 35) at 24fps 4:2:2.
T.Dascalos
Not Available
How can I possibly think if they can? ...They certainly seem to work on catching up with what's above them with video... and they seem to be fast learners as to catch up... (judging with the results they have present in only a couple of years...) mind their (similar to Hasselblad) pricing policy too... Obviously in P1 they are in (very) serious trouble... They now (try) to sell an XF+350 at more than double the price the H5D-50c Wi Fi is... a direct competitive product... Who can argue with that? (trolls & funboys can for sure...
)Look what has started happening in the sales forums with S/H P1 back prices... it's full of them for months without customers...
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stephengilbert
Active member
Theodoros,
Are you sure you know what "troll" means?
Are you sure you know what "troll" means?
T.Dascalos
Not Available
Sure... a Norwegian ugly "doll"... I have a collection of them... (both real ones that I got last time I visited Norway and... web ones)...
EDIT: They are supposed to "grow" where they was no "feeding" for them as to... troll... It's originated from the old Greek tradition of the "Kalikantzaros" myth... (google it...) where creatures from the underworld jump in the real world as to mess it up... "mess things up intentionally" is the definition of a troll... don't you agree?
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DucatiTerminator
New member
Pot calling the kettle black? What's the matter, Theodoros, getting lonely under your bridge, or is no one taking your bait at the other forum? :ROTFL::ROTFL::ROTFL:(trolls & funboys can for sure...
Look what has started happening in the sales forums with S/H P1 back prices... it's full of them for months without customers...
Speaking of funboys (sp), I do miss your Sinar crystal ball readings.
And thanks for the heads up on the used P1 pricing. Looks like it may be a viable option for me temporarily as I still can't get a new system as supply<demand. Or maybe they won't sell one to me, because they think I know you or something.
Please come up with something new; predictability is boring.
Have "fun"
D.Terminator
T.Dascalos
Not Available
Some times I do wonder.... Do moderators of sites find the behaviour of trolls (the messing up the conversation thing) like the above, helpful for their own pockets? :banghead:
Oh no...Dasscoles meets Voidshitter...this is better than "Episode VII - The Force Awakens"!!!!!!
Sinleica Lovechild vs. CMOS loverboy - Episode 1:grin: Get a room! PM is your friend.
DPI needs to ensure IPR on this thread ASAP. This is an epic in the making, yet to be filmed on a 80mmx60mm CMOS 350MP IBIS COBISS NOBISS NOPHASE sensor from Hyundai.
BTW, Dasscoles = Theodoras if that was not clear before....but one wonders why people with such strong opinions don't use their real names.
DucatiTerminator
New member
Two of the main advertisers here sell and support P1. Not sure if you have done business with either, but both are well respected and many members, including myself, have done business with one or both. Do you think that your constant P1 bashing/digs/angst are helpful to the advertisers who help support this forum?
Personally, I applaud what Hasselblad is doing, regardless of the SPECULATION as to why they are doing it. I love that I have choices and support anything or anyone that allows me to keep having choices, especially when those choices have an easier cost of entry. But I don't begrudge anyone either if that choice is beyond my financial means or understanding. You think P1 is overpriced -- we get it, how could we not? :deadhorse: Instead of your incessant subtle bitching at Phase being too expensive/overpriced/doomed, why not simply praise Hasselblad for the new pricing and leave it at that? Why does it bother you so much?
Go Hasselblad/PhaseOne/Leica/Sinar(hopefully)/Pentax!
Shoot more, bitch less...
D.Troll