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Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
It's not their pricing only that was (in the case of Hasselblad - for P1 still is) ludricous..., it was so with all MF makers up to now. The pricing reduction with Hasselblad, (it's not an offer - it's price reduction which will improve further in the near future) is not for the H5D-50 only... It is for all their products that use the Sony CMOS sensor... It seems that they DO move the 50c as to be their entry product, thus making space for the new products coming soon. ("soon" is a conclusion because of the new pricing policy)

It is also clear that they don't want to sell the rest of the products at all..., as they seem to have the 40 being cannibalized by the 50 and the 60 priced as not to sell....

It will surely be interesting to see what the (higher) coming sensors will be (surely CMOS) and how competition will respond to Hasselblad's new pricing policy...
 
It's not their pricing only that was (in the case of Hasselblad - for P1 still is) ludricous..., it was so with all MF makers up to now. The pricing reduction with Hasselblad, (it's not an offer - it's price reduction which will improve further in the near future) is not for the H5D-50 only... It is for all their products that use the Sony CMOS sensor... It seems that they DO move the 50c as to be their entry product, thus making space for the new products coming soon. ("soon" is a conclusion because of the new pricing policy)

It is also clear that they don't want to sell the rest of the products at all..., as they seem to have the 40 being cannibalized by the 50 and the 60 priced as not to sell....

It will surely be interesting to see what the (higher) coming sensors will be (surely CMOS) and how competition will respond to Hasselblad's new pricing policy...
Sony IMX161 has been out for 2 years already. It's time to expect something that is larger and with better angular response (less crosstalk issues), with presumably as good dynamic range. Hopefully Hasselblad can offer a digital back (with touchscreen) and can easily be used on a technical camera without external batteries, if Phase One isn't going to have an answer for this soon.

From the sensor department of Sony I have not heard rumors of an enlarged version of IMX161 or whatsoever so they are keeping a good secret or the larger CMOS isn't going to be made by Sony (which means the dynamic range may be less).
 

jerome_m

Member
Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
Or not.

If they sell a camera for 10K$, one would think they can build that camera for 10K$. That is probably true, but can they finance future developments and software like Phocus from that price? Probably not, considering that the product is built in relatively small numbers. Designing a new camera and designing software is horrendously expensive. A company like Apple or Samsung is able to spread these costs on millions of iPhones, so the necessary markup is relatively low. A company selling a few pieces will need a much higher markup per piece.

This kind of discount are not rare in photography, BTW. The Sony A7R was over 3000$ when it was issued, just check today's price for comparison. Today, the A7RII is over 3000$ and I am personally waiting for it to be around 1500-2000$ to move in. Of course, it means I shall only get it in a year, but I can wait. I already have a 50 mpix camera with my MF... ;)
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Sony IMX161 has been out for 2 years already. It's time to expect something that is larger and with better angular response (less crosstalk issues), with presumably as good dynamic range. Hopefully Hasselblad can offer a digital back (with touchscreen) and can easily be used on a technical camera without external batteries, if Phase One isn't going to have an answer for this soon.

From the sensor department of Sony I have not heard rumors of an enlarged version of IMX161 or whatsoever so they are keeping a good secret or the larger CMOS isn't going to be made by Sony (which means the dynamic range may be less).
I'm sure that higher up sensor that Hasselblad will use soon, will be a custom made to them one and will be made by one of the sensor makers that supplies sensors for cinema use... For P1 (or other) to answer, they'll have to find a sensor provider first to make a custom one for them... Sony won't be making any larger size sensors as the IMX 161 is their 8K cinema sensor (so they had their large size cinema offering) and its the only one "open" for all customers to buy... I don't know where the "Sony has the best DR" idea of many is originated from, but I do know that ARRIs & REDs are "killers" for DR and Leica claims 15 stops of DR for their (also very attractively priced) Leica S007. So, I would expect from a larger than the IMX 161 custom made sensors, to be of jaw dropping DR or any other IQ parameter since the suppliers of these kind of sensors, are the dedicated to the leading of imaging technology as to be used in a multi billion imaging industry...
 
I'm sure that higher up sensor that Hasselblad will use soon, will be a custom made to them one and will be made by one of the sensor makers that supplies sensors for cinema use... For P1 (or other) to answer, they'll have to find a sensor provider first to make a custom one for them... Sony won't be making any larger size sensors as the IMX 161 is their 8K cinema sensor (so they had their large size cinema offering) and its the only one "open" for all customers to buy... I don't know where the "Sony has the best DR" idea of many is originated from, but I do know that ARRIs & REDs are "killers" for DR and Leica claims 15 stops of DR for their (also very attractively priced) Leica S007. So, I would expect from a larger than the IMX 161 custom made sensors, to be of jaw dropping DR or any other IQ parameter since the suppliers of these kind of sensors, are the dedicated to the leading of imaging technology as to be used in a multi billion imaging industry...
ARRIs and REDs are different from still image cameras - their DR comes from multi-sampling (temporal noise reduction), which is essentially what happens when you stack several still pictures together to reduce shadow noise and to increase the DR of a camera (a common technique for astrophotography). RED also has their own HDRx, which is essentially bracketing, with their limitations for motion. Still, I see no proof that a single frame from ARRI or RED can do as good as a Sony IMX094 or Sony IMX161 or even Sony IMX251. Yes Leica S 007 claims to have 15-stops of DR but where does that jump from a Leica Q which only has 13-stops of DR? I'd be curious to see some test results.
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Or not.

If they sell a camera for 10K$, one would think they can build that camera for 10K$. That is probably true, but can they finance future developments and software like Phocus from that price?
Yes they can! The Sony sensor backs cost to the makers less than their 40mp "entrance" offerings... So if they can sell much more products at 40% higher price than the H5D-40, or all their H5D cameras (40,50 & 60 added), the financial benefit is huge... The price of H5D-50 will (gradually) drop further.... the more its success, the more the price will fall until it settles (just) over where H5D-40 was...
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
ARRIs and REDs are different from still image cameras - their DR comes from multi-sampling (temporal noise reduction), which is essentially what happens when you stack several still pictures together to reduce shadow noise and to increase the DR of a camera (a common technique for astrophotography). RED also has their own HDRx, which is essentially bracketing, with their limitations for motion. Still, I see no proof that a single frame from ARRI or RED can do as good as a Sony IMX094 or Sony IMX161 or even Sony IMX251. Yes Leica S 007 claims to have 15-stops of DR but where does that jump from a Leica Q which only has 13-stops of DR? I'd be curious to see some test results.
One thing I can ensure you of, is that my (Aptina made sensor) Nikon DF, beats hands down my D800E (Sony sensor) for DR... The problem with DR is not what the camera records, it's rather what you are left off after post processing... With Sony sensors, if one aims to keep as much of the recorded DR as possible, he ends up with a dull/awful result that looks like nothing close to photography... Exactly the reason many like Canon sensors... they seem to be recording less DR, but after processing the end result seems to retain DR without lucking any of the "punch" needed for the print....
 
One thing I can ensure you of, is that my (Aptina made sensor) Nikon DF, beats hands down my D800E (Sony sensor) for DR... The problem with DR is not what the camera records, it's rather what you are left off after post processing... With Sony sensors, if one aims to keep as much of the recorded DR as possible, he ends up with a dull/awful result that looks like nothing close to photography... Exactly the reason many like Canon sensors... they seem to be recording less DR, but after processing the end result seems to retain DR without lucking any of the "punch" needed for the print....
Not sure if we are talking about the same DR thing. The sensor of the Nikon Df is supposed to have been made by Renesas (and designed by Nikon) according to what I heard of. I have used Nikon D4, D4s and D800E for a while and my experience is the opposite of yours. Are you sure you have compared both cameras (Nikon Df and Nikon D800E) in a fair way? ;)

DxXMark gives a straight forward scoring:
1.JPG

If you don't trust DxOMark, then fine, download the RAW files from DPReview and compare by yourself: Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
2_0.JPG
2.JPG

Still don't believe it? Check sensorgen.info:
3.JPG
4.JPG

Still have doubt? Check Bill Claff's plot: Link
1889560_1436747213.jpg

5 independent tests (including mine) agree that the 180nm Sony IMX094 (D800E) beats the 250nm Renesas NC81366W (D4/Df) in terms of the DR i'm talking about. Can you provide some of your test results? :)
 

dougpeterson

Workshop Member
Hasselblad won't survive selling the limited number customers they have at these price levals. The question is, how do they get the prices back up?
The other question is how does Phase One expect to continue to merchandise their offerings at a price that is almost a three times multiple of Hasselblad's price?
Stanley
Team Phase One offers a variety of options at a range of pricing, most of which are nowhere near the "three-times multiple" you cite

Credo 40 DF+ kit is several k less and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens. If you need high ISO this is not a great alternative to the 50mp sensor, but many (probably most) of our clients do not need high ISO or are okay keeping a Canon/Nikon/Sony for the occasions they do.
Credo 50 DF+ kit is only a few k more and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens.
IQ150 XF kit offers a body platform built in 2015 rather than 2002 (with incremental improvements since then) and the new Blue Ring lens line that is a major industrial design improvement over any previous Hassy/Phase lens.
IQ350 XF is definitely a good bit more expensive but it also offers a 5-year warranty on all components (back/body/lens) with unlimited loaners during any service/repairs and the best wifi solution available for any camera. This sort of uptime guarantee and long warranty including on accessories like lenses, is really valuable to some individuals and to most rental/production houses.

All of these options offer a modern digital back interface based on a bright retina resolution touch LCD with USB3 for tethering and tools like Focus Mask, customizable exposure warning, movable guides, etc. They are also compatible and deeply integrated with Capture One.

Finally, people often confuse list price with street price. We can do a kit with an XF much closer to the H5D-50c promo price than the list prices would indicate. We're working on such a deal with a forum member as we speak.

Every time another medium format company makes a big marketing push based on offering a new lower price our call/email volume goes up not down. Getting someone off their couch and to the point where they are actively looking into medium format is the biggest hurdle we face, so we're just as glad when someone starts that search based on an ad or promo for Hassy as we are when it's our own, because any sensible individual is going to look at all the major available options. Nobody (or exceptionally few) are going to "Add to Cart > Purchase" an H5D-50c, IQ150, Credo 50 or any other camera costing more than a few thousand dollars.
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Hasselblad won't survive selling the limited number customers they have at these price levals. The question is, how do they get the prices back up?
Do you have any evidence to back up this? I'm pretty sure they have no back-up... selling at double the price than a Pentax 645z needs no back up...


The other question is how does Phase One expect to continue to merchandise their offerings at a price that is almost a three times multiple of Hasselblad's price?
Stanley
It's not the only problem they have... Their biggest problem is the devaluation of older CCD backs that creates unhappy customers... Some people expect to sell an ΙQ-160 and buy an H5D-50 instead... the problem is that possible customer of the MFDB can buy the H5D-50 (a direct competitor to an XF & IQ-350 combination) instead of the S/H back too... Just have a look at the sales forums and you'll get the picture.... An additional problem is that the marketing demand is for the Cmos backs anyway, not so much because of the better Image quality (questionable to some - at least at near base ISO), but rather because of the LV quality which (unquestionably) provides solutions to ones workflow...
 

tjv

Active member
Team Phase One offers a variety of options at a range of pricing, most of which are nowhere near the "three-times multiple" you cite

Credo 40 DF+ kit is several k less and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens. If you need high ISO this is not a great alternative to the 50mp sensor, but many (probably most) of our clients do not need high ISO or are okay keeping a Canon/Nikon/Sony for the occasions they do.
Credo 50 DF+ kit is only a few k more and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens.
IQ150 XF kit offers a body platform built in 2015 rather than 2002 (with incremental improvements since then) and the new Blue Ring lens line that is a major industrial design improvement over any previous Hassy/Phase lens.
IQ350 XF is definitely a good bit more expensive but it also offers a 5-year warranty on all components (back/body/lens) with unlimited loaners during any service/repairs and the best wifi solution available for any camera. This sort of uptime guarantee and long warranty including on accessories like lenses, is really valuable to some individuals and to most rental/production houses.

All of these options offer a modern digital back interface based on a bright retina resolution touch LCD with USB3 for tethering and tools like Focus Mask, customizable exposure warning, movable guides, etc. They are also compatible and deeply integrated with Capture One.

Finally, people often confuse list price with street price. We can do a kit with an XF much closer to the H5D-50c promo price than the list prices would indicate. We're working on such a deal with a forum member as we speak.

Every time another medium format company makes a big marketing push based on offering a new lower price our call/email volume goes up not down. Getting someone off their couch and to the point where they are actively looking into medium format is the biggest hurdle we face, so we're just as glad when someone starts that search based on an ad or promo for Hassy as we are when it's our own, because any sensible individual is going to look at all the major available options. Nobody (or exceptionally few) are going to "Add to Cart > Purchase" an H5D-50c, IQ150, Credo 50 or any other camera costing more than a few thousand dollars.
Perhaps quote a price for a comparable Phase kit here then? With the XF, not the "dog with fleas" DF+. Define "much closer" in price.

The Phase model of selling is really tiresome ive found, in that at least with Hasselblad selling prices are more out in the open.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
From a personal point of view I find POA - Price on Application - a huge disincentive to buy anything.
 

MrSmith

Member
From a personal point of view I find POA - Price on Application - a huge disincentive to buy anything.
it’s all part of the brand allure, having your own personal salesperson on hand for 1:1 silver tongued platitudes and thinly veiled sales patter to reassure you and ease the self justification of purchasing decisions.

agreed not everyone appreciates this approach.

the uk dealers seem to have started listing their prices more.

phase one IQ350/xf/80mm £28,800
HBlad H5D-50c/80mm £13,638
(both inc VAT)

i think you get a nice case and an ostrich leather strap with the phase1?
 

KeithL

Well-known member
it’s all part of the brand allure, having your own personal salesperson on hand for 1:1 silver tongued platitudes and thinly veiled sales patter to reassure you and ease the self justification of purchasing decisions.
You forgot these fellas.

 
here:

phase one IQ150/xf/80mm Sfr. 31'038
HBlad H5D-50c/80mm Sfr. 19'600
(both inc 8% VAT)

both with same CMOS 50 MP sensor (33x44mm). pretty steep price difference. That's why I went the H route, despite the lack of support of H files in CaptureOne software...

Juerg
 

Pradeep

Member
here:

phase one IQ150/xf/80mm Sfr. 31'038
HBlad H5D-50c/80mm Sfr. 19'600
(both inc 8% VAT)

both with same CMOS 50 MP sensor (33x44mm). pretty steep price difference. That's why I went the H route, despite the lack of support of H files in CaptureOne software...

Juerg
Phase seems to have lowered their prices too then. When I bought my system in late 2013, I paid close to $41K for it (IQ180 plus DF+ plus LS80). Given that it was the older DF camera body, the deal is that much sweeter now.

It is always Caveat Emptor isn't it. For most people the value lies in what they do with the purchase and how they feel their money has been spent. It is almost impossible to impose somebody else's value system on an item. If there was a universal definition of 'value' then nobody would buy a Ferrari (or a Tesla).
 

T.Dascalos

Not Available
Not sure if we are talking about the same DR thing. The sensor of the Nikon Df is supposed to have been made by Renesas (and designed by Nikon) according to what I heard of. I have used Nikon D4, D4s and D800E for a while and my experience is the opposite of yours. Are you sure you have compared both cameras (Nikon Df and Nikon D800E) in a fair way? ;)

DxXMark gives a straight forward scoring:
Obviously not... (talking about the same DR thing)... I'm talking about DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing, you talk about "tests" that measure (and often disagree with one another) what is recorded in the RAW file and is presented by a certain Raw processor...
 
Obviously not... (talking about the same DR thing)... I'm talking about DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing, you talk about "tests" that measure (and often disagree with one another) what is recorded in the RAW file and is presented by a certain Raw processor...
Then could you show me what you mean by "DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing", using the two RAW files that can be downloaded from DPReview?

Link to download RAW of Df: Link 1
Link to download RAW of D800E: Link 2

Just in case you still fail to see that I did post-processing, I highlight these again with red text:

2_2.jpg
 
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