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Thread: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

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    Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c


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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
    It's not their pricing only that was (in the case of Hasselblad - for P1 still is) ludricous..., it was so with all MF makers up to now. The pricing reduction with Hasselblad, (it's not an offer - it's price reduction which will improve further in the near future) is not for the H5D-50 only... It is for all their products that use the Sony CMOS sensor... It seems that they DO move the 50c as to be their entry product, thus making space for the new products coming soon. ("soon" is a conclusion because of the new pricing policy)

    It is also clear that they don't want to sell the rest of the products at all..., as they seem to have the 40 being cannibalized by the 50 and the 60 priced as not to sell....

    It will surely be interesting to see what the (higher) coming sensors will be (surely CMOS) and how competition will respond to Hasselblad's new pricing policy...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    It's not their pricing only that was (in the case of Hasselblad - for P1 still is) ludricous..., it was so with all MF makers up to now. The pricing reduction with Hasselblad, (it's not an offer - it's price reduction which will improve further in the near future) is not for the H5D-50 only... It is for all their products that use the Sony CMOS sensor... It seems that they DO move the 50c as to be their entry product, thus making space for the new products coming soon. ("soon" is a conclusion because of the new pricing policy)

    It is also clear that they don't want to sell the rest of the products at all..., as they seem to have the 40 being cannibalized by the 50 and the 60 priced as not to sell....

    It will surely be interesting to see what the (higher) coming sensors will be (surely CMOS) and how competition will respond to Hasselblad's new pricing policy...
    Sony IMX161 has been out for 2 years already. It's time to expect something that is larger and with better angular response (less crosstalk issues), with presumably as good dynamic range. Hopefully Hasselblad can offer a digital back (with touchscreen) and can easily be used on a technical camera without external batteries, if Phase One isn't going to have an answer for this soon.

    From the sensor department of Sony I have not heard rumors of an enlarged version of IMX161 or whatsoever so they are keeping a good secret or the larger CMOS isn't going to be made by Sony (which means the dynamic range may be less).

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedgraphic View Post
    Just shows you how ludicrous their pricing is. If they can still make enough profit at 50% off then this should have been the introductory price.
    Or not.

    If they sell a camera for 10K$, one would think they can build that camera for 10K$. That is probably true, but can they finance future developments and software like Phocus from that price? Probably not, considering that the product is built in relatively small numbers. Designing a new camera and designing software is horrendously expensive. A company like Apple or Samsung is able to spread these costs on millions of iPhones, so the necessary markup is relatively low. A company selling a few pieces will need a much higher markup per piece.

    This kind of discount are not rare in photography, BTW. The Sony A7R was over 3000$ when it was issued, just check today's price for comparison. Today, the A7RII is over 3000$ and I am personally waiting for it to be around 1500-2000$ to move in. Of course, it means I shall only get it in a year, but I can wait. I already have a 50 mpix camera with my MF...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Sony IMX161 has been out for 2 years already. It's time to expect something that is larger and with better angular response (less crosstalk issues), with presumably as good dynamic range. Hopefully Hasselblad can offer a digital back (with touchscreen) and can easily be used on a technical camera without external batteries, if Phase One isn't going to have an answer for this soon.

    From the sensor department of Sony I have not heard rumors of an enlarged version of IMX161 or whatsoever so they are keeping a good secret or the larger CMOS isn't going to be made by Sony (which means the dynamic range may be less).
    I'm sure that higher up sensor that Hasselblad will use soon, will be a custom made to them one and will be made by one of the sensor makers that supplies sensors for cinema use... For P1 (or other) to answer, they'll have to find a sensor provider first to make a custom one for them... Sony won't be making any larger size sensors as the IMX 161 is their 8K cinema sensor (so they had their large size cinema offering) and its the only one "open" for all customers to buy... I don't know where the "Sony has the best DR" idea of many is originated from, but I do know that ARRIs & REDs are "killers" for DR and Leica claims 15 stops of DR for their (also very attractively priced) Leica S007. So, I would expect from a larger than the IMX 161 custom made sensors, to be of jaw dropping DR or any other IQ parameter since the suppliers of these kind of sensors, are the dedicated to the leading of imaging technology as to be used in a multi billion imaging industry...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    I'm sure that higher up sensor that Hasselblad will use soon, will be a custom made to them one and will be made by one of the sensor makers that supplies sensors for cinema use... For P1 (or other) to answer, they'll have to find a sensor provider first to make a custom one for them... Sony won't be making any larger size sensors as the IMX 161 is their 8K cinema sensor (so they had their large size cinema offering) and its the only one "open" for all customers to buy... I don't know where the "Sony has the best DR" idea of many is originated from, but I do know that ARRIs & REDs are "killers" for DR and Leica claims 15 stops of DR for their (also very attractively priced) Leica S007. So, I would expect from a larger than the IMX 161 custom made sensors, to be of jaw dropping DR or any other IQ parameter since the suppliers of these kind of sensors, are the dedicated to the leading of imaging technology as to be used in a multi billion imaging industry...
    ARRIs and REDs are different from still image cameras - their DR comes from multi-sampling (temporal noise reduction), which is essentially what happens when you stack several still pictures together to reduce shadow noise and to increase the DR of a camera (a common technique for astrophotography). RED also has their own HDRx, which is essentially bracketing, with their limitations for motion. Still, I see no proof that a single frame from ARRI or RED can do as good as a Sony IMX094 or Sony IMX161 or even Sony IMX251. Yes Leica S 007 claims to have 15-stops of DR but where does that jump from a Leica Q which only has 13-stops of DR? I'd be curious to see some test results.

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Or not.

    If they sell a camera for 10K$, one would think they can build that camera for 10K$. That is probably true, but can they finance future developments and software like Phocus from that price?
    Yes they can! The Sony sensor backs cost to the makers less than their 40mp "entrance" offerings... So if they can sell much more products at 40% higher price than the H5D-40, or all their H5D cameras (40,50 & 60 added), the financial benefit is huge... The price of H5D-50 will (gradually) drop further.... the more its success, the more the price will fall until it settles (just) over where H5D-40 was...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    ARRIs and REDs are different from still image cameras - their DR comes from multi-sampling (temporal noise reduction), which is essentially what happens when you stack several still pictures together to reduce shadow noise and to increase the DR of a camera (a common technique for astrophotography). RED also has their own HDRx, which is essentially bracketing, with their limitations for motion. Still, I see no proof that a single frame from ARRI or RED can do as good as a Sony IMX094 or Sony IMX161 or even Sony IMX251. Yes Leica S 007 claims to have 15-stops of DR but where does that jump from a Leica Q which only has 13-stops of DR? I'd be curious to see some test results.
    One thing I can ensure you of, is that my (Aptina made sensor) Nikon DF, beats hands down my D800E (Sony sensor) for DR... The problem with DR is not what the camera records, it's rather what you are left off after post processing... With Sony sensors, if one aims to keep as much of the recorded DR as possible, he ends up with a dull/awful result that looks like nothing close to photography... Exactly the reason many like Canon sensors... they seem to be recording less DR, but after processing the end result seems to retain DR without lucking any of the "punch" needed for the print....

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    One thing I can ensure you of, is that my (Aptina made sensor) Nikon DF, beats hands down my D800E (Sony sensor) for DR... The problem with DR is not what the camera records, it's rather what you are left off after post processing... With Sony sensors, if one aims to keep as much of the recorded DR as possible, he ends up with a dull/awful result that looks like nothing close to photography... Exactly the reason many like Canon sensors... they seem to be recording less DR, but after processing the end result seems to retain DR without lucking any of the "punch" needed for the print....
    Not sure if we are talking about the same DR thing. The sensor of the Nikon Df is supposed to have been made by Renesas (and designed by Nikon) according to what I heard of. I have used Nikon D4, D4s and D800E for a while and my experience is the opposite of yours. Are you sure you have compared both cameras (Nikon Df and Nikon D800E) in a fair way?

    DxXMark gives a straight forward scoring:
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    If you don't trust DxOMark, then fine, download the RAW files from DPReview and compare by yourself: Studio shot comparison: Digital Photography Review
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    Click image for larger version. 

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    Still don't believe it? Check sensorgen.info:
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    Still have doubt? Check Bill Claff's plot: Link
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    5 independent tests (including mine) agree that the 180nm Sony IMX094 (D800E) beats the 250nm Renesas NC81366W (D4/Df) in terms of the DR i'm talking about. Can you provide some of your test results?
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Hasselblad won't survive selling the limited number customers they have at these price levals. The question is, how do they get the prices back up?
    The other question is how does Phase One expect to continue to merchandise their offerings at a price that is almost a three times multiple of Hasselblad's price?
    Stanley
    Team Phase One offers a variety of options at a range of pricing, most of which are nowhere near the "three-times multiple" you cite

    Credo 40 DF+ kit is several k less and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens. If you need high ISO this is not a great alternative to the 50mp sensor, but many (probably most) of our clients do not need high ISO or are okay keeping a Canon/Nikon/Sony for the occasions they do.
    Credo 50 DF+ kit is only a few k more and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens.
    IQ150 XF kit offers a body platform built in 2015 rather than 2002 (with incremental improvements since then) and the new Blue Ring lens line that is a major industrial design improvement over any previous Hassy/Phase lens.
    IQ350 XF is definitely a good bit more expensive but it also offers a 5-year warranty on all components (back/body/lens) with unlimited loaners during any service/repairs and the best wifi solution available for any camera. This sort of uptime guarantee and long warranty including on accessories like lenses, is really valuable to some individuals and to most rental/production houses.

    All of these options offer a modern digital back interface based on a bright retina resolution touch LCD with USB3 for tethering and tools like Focus Mask, customizable exposure warning, movable guides, etc. They are also compatible and deeply integrated with Capture One.

    Finally, people often confuse list price with street price. We can do a kit with an XF much closer to the H5D-50c promo price than the list prices would indicate. We're working on such a deal with a forum member as we speak.

    Every time another medium format company makes a big marketing push based on offering a new lower price our call/email volume goes up not down. Getting someone off their couch and to the point where they are actively looking into medium format is the biggest hurdle we face, so we're just as glad when someone starts that search based on an ad or promo for Hassy as we are when it's our own, because any sensible individual is going to look at all the major available options. Nobody (or exceptionally few) are going to "Add to Cart > Purchase" an H5D-50c, IQ150, Credo 50 or any other camera costing more than a few thousand dollars.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    Hasselblad won't survive selling the limited number customers they have at these price levals. The question is, how do they get the prices back up?
    Do you have any evidence to back up this? I'm pretty sure they have no back-up... selling at double the price than a Pentax 645z needs no back up...


    Quote Originally Posted by stngoldberg View Post
    The other question is how does Phase One expect to continue to merchandise their offerings at a price that is almost a three times multiple of Hasselblad's price?
    Stanley
    It's not the only problem they have... Their biggest problem is the devaluation of older CCD backs that creates unhappy customers... Some people expect to sell an ΙQ-160 and buy an H5D-50 instead... the problem is that possible customer of the MFDB can buy the H5D-50 (a direct competitor to an XF & IQ-350 combination) instead of the S/H back too... Just have a look at the sales forums and you'll get the picture.... An additional problem is that the marketing demand is for the Cmos backs anyway, not so much because of the better Image quality (questionable to some - at least at near base ISO), but rather because of the LV quality which (unquestionably) provides solutions to ones workflow...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Team Phase One offers a variety of options at a range of pricing, most of which are nowhere near the "three-times multiple" you cite

    Credo 40 DF+ kit is several k less and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens. If you need high ISO this is not a great alternative to the 50mp sensor, but many (probably most) of our clients do not need high ISO or are okay keeping a Canon/Nikon/Sony for the occasions they do.
    Credo 50 DF+ kit is only a few k more and includes a stellar Schneider 80LS lens.
    IQ150 XF kit offers a body platform built in 2015 rather than 2002 (with incremental improvements since then) and the new Blue Ring lens line that is a major industrial design improvement over any previous Hassy/Phase lens.
    IQ350 XF is definitely a good bit more expensive but it also offers a 5-year warranty on all components (back/body/lens) with unlimited loaners during any service/repairs and the best wifi solution available for any camera. This sort of uptime guarantee and long warranty including on accessories like lenses, is really valuable to some individuals and to most rental/production houses.

    All of these options offer a modern digital back interface based on a bright retina resolution touch LCD with USB3 for tethering and tools like Focus Mask, customizable exposure warning, movable guides, etc. They are also compatible and deeply integrated with Capture One.

    Finally, people often confuse list price with street price. We can do a kit with an XF much closer to the H5D-50c promo price than the list prices would indicate. We're working on such a deal with a forum member as we speak.

    Every time another medium format company makes a big marketing push based on offering a new lower price our call/email volume goes up not down. Getting someone off their couch and to the point where they are actively looking into medium format is the biggest hurdle we face, so we're just as glad when someone starts that search based on an ad or promo for Hassy as we are when it's our own, because any sensible individual is going to look at all the major available options. Nobody (or exceptionally few) are going to "Add to Cart > Purchase" an H5D-50c, IQ150, Credo 50 or any other camera costing more than a few thousand dollars.
    Perhaps quote a price for a comparable Phase kit here then? With the XF, not the "dog with fleas" DF+. Define "much closer" in price.

    The Phase model of selling is really tiresome ive found, in that at least with Hasselblad selling prices are more out in the open.

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    From a personal point of view I find POA - Price on Application - a huge disincentive to buy anything.
    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by KeithL View Post
    From a personal point of view I find POA - Price on Application - a huge disincentive to buy anything.
    it’s all part of the brand allure, having your own personal salesperson on hand for 1:1 silver tongued platitudes and thinly veiled sales patter to reassure you and ease the self justification of purchasing decisions.

    agreed not everyone appreciates this approach.

    the uk dealers seem to have started listing their prices more.

    phase one IQ350/xf/80mm £28,800
    HBlad H5D-50c/80mm £13,638
    (both inc VAT)

    i think you get a nice case and an ostrich leather strap with the phase1?
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    it’s all part of the brand allure, having your own personal salesperson on hand for 1:1 silver tongued platitudes and thinly veiled sales patter to reassure you and ease the self justification of purchasing decisions.
    You forgot these fellas.

    http://www.keithlaban.co.uk
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    here:

    phase one IQ150/xf/80mm Sfr. 31'038
    HBlad H5D-50c/80mm Sfr. 19'600
    (both inc 8% VAT)

    both with same CMOS 50 MP sensor (33x44mm). pretty steep price difference. That's why I went the H route, despite the lack of support of H files in CaptureOne software...

    Juerg
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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by jvpictures View Post
    here:

    phase one IQ150/xf/80mm Sfr. 31'038
    HBlad H5D-50c/80mm Sfr. 19'600
    (both inc 8% VAT)

    both with same CMOS 50 MP sensor (33x44mm). pretty steep price difference. That's why I went the H route, despite the lack of support of H files in CaptureOne software...

    Juerg
    Phase seems to have lowered their prices too then. When I bought my system in late 2013, I paid close to $41K for it (IQ180 plus DF+ plus LS80). Given that it was the older DF camera body, the deal is that much sweeter now.

    It is always Caveat Emptor isn't it. For most people the value lies in what they do with the purchase and how they feel their money has been spent. It is almost impossible to impose somebody else's value system on an item. If there was a universal definition of 'value' then nobody would buy a Ferrari (or a Tesla).

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Not sure if we are talking about the same DR thing. The sensor of the Nikon Df is supposed to have been made by Renesas (and designed by Nikon) according to what I heard of. I have used Nikon D4, D4s and D800E for a while and my experience is the opposite of yours. Are you sure you have compared both cameras (Nikon Df and Nikon D800E) in a fair way?

    DxXMark gives a straight forward scoring:
    Obviously not... (talking about the same DR thing)... I'm talking about DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing, you talk about "tests" that measure (and often disagree with one another) what is recorded in the RAW file and is presented by a certain Raw processor...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    Obviously not... (talking about the same DR thing)... I'm talking about DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing, you talk about "tests" that measure (and often disagree with one another) what is recorded in the RAW file and is presented by a certain Raw processor...
    Then could you show me what you mean by "DR extension that is left (retained) after post processing", using the two RAW files that can be downloaded from DPReview?

    Link to download RAW of Df: Link 1
    Link to download RAW of D800E: Link 2

    Just in case you still fail to see that I did post-processing, I highlight these again with red text:

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Dascalos View Post
    thus making space for the new products coming soon. ("soon" is a conclusion because of the new pricing policy)
    Again, it could also be the other way around: they have to lower the pricing of 50MP models because Sony is also going to announce something that is 50+MP in 35mm format. My source in the Sony sensor department told me about several prototypes of 50+MP sensors in 35mm format (which is not like the IMX251 in A7R-II optimized for 4k video readout in Super-35 area of the sensor), but told me nothing about something larger than IMX161 (H5D-50c, 645Z etc) in size.

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    The last time Hasselblad offered a huge discount on the H4D-40 was when the Nikon D800/D800E was announced. A huge discount does not necessarily mean a new sensor for the medium format. (But we surely do hope for a new sensor!)

    The current pricings of the H5D-50c and the CVF-50c are surely attractive, but these lack the support of Capture One for LCC, rendering these unfriendly for technical cameras.

    The H5D system also only offer flash sync to up to 1/800, while even Leica S can do 1/1000. Fewer and fewer reasons to buy if the pricing is not attractive enough.

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    With the XF, not the "dog with fleas" DF+. Define "much closer" in price.
    The DF+ body was not in the same league as the Hasselblad body (at least to me), which is why I shot a Hasselblad for a long time with my Phase back, until I upgraded to the IQ260 as I then got it as a "kit" with a DF+ and 80LS. I ended up selling off my Hassselbad since I was not shooting MFDSLR as much and had the DF+ for those instances when I did.

    The Schneider lenses are very good however and felt they were equal to the Hasselblad glass.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    I don't know a "bad" lens in production with any of the MF makers... I know only a few Pentax 645 lenses that have been criticized, but these where all older designs that where reissued and then only a few out of them... Out of Mamiya, the only lens I know as being inferior is the older 55-110mm zoom which is now discontinued... If I was to value a lens line between P1/Mamiya, Hasselblad, Pentax, Leica & Contax 645, I would say that the Hasselblad line has a some drawbacks that are related to different things than Image quality... I feel that their UWA line is too crowdy with 24, 28 & 35 lenses, while then there is only one WA (the 50mm) which is too far away than the 80mm and too close to the UWA range.... IMO, a 55mm would be a much better suggestion for Hasselblad and then perhaps the standard lens should be of 75mm... My other "problem" with Hasselblad's lens line is the 50-110mm zoom, which is (although of superb image quality) a real PINA to use because of its bulk... Clearly it needs redesigning... My "championship metal" out of all the above makers, would go to the ( long discontinued...) Contax 645 line (which I happily own) because of its lens speed and the superb 45-90mm vario sonnar, which manages to hide its bulk while covering a very usefull range at the same time...

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    Re: Hasselblad deal of the day.... 50% off H5D-50c

    What some Phase dealers who post here also seemingly fail to grasp is that their level of knowledge and service are not indicative of the Phase / Leaf global dealer network. In Australia and NZ for example it's a totally different story with regards to service and support, but also price. The list price is pretty much the price and that's it because there's realloy only one game in town for sales. There's no competition or incentive to provide more after sales value, either. Hasselblad is better in that regard, at least in NZ and in my experience.

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