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Thread: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

  1. #51
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by docmoore View Post
    Zacuto Gratical is 5k OLED for HDMI.....
    Here is the older EVF PRO from Zacuto on a D810 ... allows 1:1 magnification Zebras and peaking / false color and monochrome.
    Bob
    Nice rig, but I personally wouldn't call that an EVF, I'd call that an attached monitor!

    The Gratical model you mention is still way too big for my walk-around use.
    Hopefully a Japanese manufacturer will release something a quarter this size soon!
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by gerald.d View Post
    Ok. Maybe temper that earlier enthusiasm a little.

    "How does it behave with movements on the wide Rodies?"

    "We think better than IQ250 but with very short lenses we would not go for the full image circle."

    Kind regards,

    Gerald.
    Very interested on how this sensor performs with the Rodie 32mm
    Stanley
    Last edited by stngoldberg; 3rd January 2016 at 10:57. Reason: Spelling

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Stefan Steib View Post
    Do you mean this one ? ....? but that is not 4,4k . It has 5,4 Mil Pixels and a res of 1280×1024 ?

    Gratical HD Micro-OLED EVF

    I mean this one by Epson which has 1400x 1050 :

    Epson announces mass production of 4.41m dot LCD likely used in Leica SL: Digital Photography Review.

    Alas with the release of the Oculus rift and available Sony Z5 Phones that is topped by plenty, real 4k of res.
    HD and 4K Smartphones from Sony Xperia - Sony Xperia (Global UK English)


    This will become an interesting year
    Stefan

    Yes you are correct meant 5.4 mil pixels ...

    None of the larger monitors is worth much in brightly light situations...

    I use the following for video but still need a decent EVF with waveforms and 1:1 magnification. In spite of capturing
    4K and Raw and PRORES HQ, judging a thin DOF with the 7 inch monitor is difficult in bright light. The Zacuto solves this
    as the eyecup eliminates the ambient lighting and glare. It allows for easy focusing with a 50 F1.2 at 36MP on the D810
    so should be adequate for the Phase. So I use both the Zacuto and the Odyssey with video OUTSIDE ... I have learned to mount the Odyssey on the
    sticks to eliminate vibration as on camera or rig it acts like a sail.


    Odyssey 7Q+












    Sorry for the poor wording of my previous post.


    Regards,


    Bob
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Finally got to look at the files - looks very decent up to 400, then starts to get a bit noisy at 800 and of course more so at 1600 &up.

    Still I'd say it's a 3 stop improvement in ISO. Where I used to shoot ISO 50, I can do 200 for sure, or 400 if needed, without any objectionable noise increase. And this is speaking as someone who's maximum was ISO 50 on old backs.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    Nice rig, but I personally wouldn't call that an EVF, I'd call that an attached monitor!

    The Gratical model you mention is still way too big for my walk-around use.
    Hopefully a Japanese manufacturer will release something a quarter this size soon!
    Please see my 7 inch monitor recorder post ... but yes the Gratical is heavy.

    Personally do not see the 100MP Back as a walk around camera ... so when I shoot landscape
    it is out of the bag when I set up a series of shots then back in to move... reminiscent of
    4x5 days.

    My Oconnor head tripod and video setup is pushing 8x10 weights so it is not a casual affair.

    Problem with any EVF is it needs a power source ... and those can get a bit heavy. Doubt that the
    Phase has a DTap or other power sharing output. Most of the Zacuto and smaller monitors use Canon
    LP-E6N batteries which seems like nothing after using a RED and its monitor ....


    RED Epic Monitor and IDX Battery







    Well I do hope for a very small EVF with a decent eye point great resolution and better dynamic range than that of
    the Leica SL as an add to any system ... maybe a year or two.

    Bob

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    It would seem BSI would be a big deal ... I would think it would have been mentioned in the specs and marketing hype if it were. silence on the subject implies it isn't, but maybe the marketing dept didn't realize how big a deal it would be so they didn't think it was important to include in the specs.
    Phase One's marketing team has a history of messing up technical details. Both Phase One and Credo falsely advertised their 50MP CMOS backs as 14-bit, but indeed these IMX161 backs capture 16-bit RAW files (despite the fact that the ADC may be only 14-bit).

    My friend in Sony's sensor department didn't mention any development of new sensor technology so this 100MP sensor should be an enlargement of existing technology, and the closest bet is the IMX251 (A7R-II's BSI).

    Everything is just speculation but we will see soon enough (color casts of wide angles).
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Sony made with Phase One collaboration on the design.

    A full tech camera test is one of our first priorities. Similar to our comprehensive tech camera test we did at the Morgan.
    It would be great it this included the SK lenses and the Rodies.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Phase One's marketing team has a history of messing up technical details. Both Phase One and Credo falsely advertised their 50MP CMOS backs as 14-bit, but indeed these IMX161 backs capture 16-bit RAW files (despite the fact that the ADC may be only 14-bit).

    My friend in Sony's sensor department didn't mention any development of new sensor technology so this 100MP sensor should be an enlargement of existing technology, and the closest bet is the IMX251 (A7R-II's BSI).

    Everything is just speculation but we will see soon enough (color casts of wide angles).
    I think 15 stops of DR with clean higher ISO's makes BSI a pretty good bet.

    Any way you slice it, this is a(nother) breakthrough piece of imaging equipment -- kudos to Phase!
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Any word on the Leaf versions?
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    I've viewed the sample files from Doug (thanks so much, Doug) and the noise level looks very similar to my Leaf CMOS. The most I would ever need would be 800iso and I would never try to mitigate any noise. If I can work out my deal then I'll buy one......

    Victor

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    A few questions that I think we all have been silently asking...

    - Does the IQ3 include multishot stepper for 400 Mpx captures?
    - I assume there in-body IS for selfies - which selfie stick is recommended?
    - What is the maximum frame rate for sports/action? My nephew is never still for a single moment.
    - Are there Android/iOS apps for live view capture yet, and which social networks are supported? Or can I post to Facebook straight out of the camera? I use Facebook a lot, and Instagram is great for my selfies.
    - Does each IQ3 come with its own Facebook page and Twitter feed? The Internet of Things is now, remember?
    - When shooting 12K time lapses, how do I minimize the in-camera upload time to Youtube? I like to post my vids in real time.
    - Which focal length reducing adapter should I use for my old large format lenses? Metabones don't seem to make one.
    - Does the crop mode support MFT crop so I can use my Panasonic lenses? They are really good. I just need to find an adapter.
    - To finance my purchase of an IQ3 I plan to sell both my kidneys, which means I need a permanent hookup to a dialysis machine - which brands do you recommend? Being Swedish I do have a preference for Gambro machines.

    (Tongue in cheek the post-holiday vacuum got to me.)

    The IQ3 specs tell of a true milestone in photography. If I could solve the financial equation I would retire my 8x10s in a heartbeat. Now, Guy mentioned something about Powerball...
    Lars
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Doug, I'm curious. What's the target market for a 100MP full-frame IQ3? I have no doubt that you'll sell a bunch. Good luck and congratulations.
    Check out the front page article just published on exactly that!

    http://www.getdpi.com/wp/2016/01/wha...do-with-100mp/
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    What is the upgrade price from a 1st gen 80mp class back (Aptus II 12 / IQ 180)?

    -> I really hope that P1 uses the opportunity to provide fair upgrade paths!

    PRICE, PRICE, PRICE!

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    My Leica 007 manual says it is 16-bit color. What am I missing?

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by narikin View Post
    One sad thing is the timing for US based customers:

    - We have just (Dec 31st) finished our tax year, and if we had been able to buy/put deposits down on this in 2015, could have deducted it from the last years taxes. That saving is now lost to the Feds forever.
    1st of all, this is a big and welcome surprise! Congrats, PhaseOne!

    Narikin, you are quite correct, but thats OK, I think most of us make those kinds of decisions by late August/September anyway. This year we just upgraded a lens and added a IQ140 kit but the majority of our tax write-offs went into lighting and non-camera gear. The decisions were made in late August based on sales.
    This announcement gives great amount of time for bleeding edge evaluators to let us know all the cam's ins and outs. Also should mean better pricing on IQ150/250's toward August or earlier

    Doug, congrats again! Always exciting stuff coming out with you guys.
    Any word on white balance with the CMOS in Live View yet?

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo Lawyer View Post
    My Leica 007 manual says it is 16-bit color. What am I missing?
    I asked Doug if the IQ3 100 REALLY has 16bit colour or is it the same as every other MFDB and has 14 or 15bits of real usable data packed into the standard 16bits.

    If if the new back really does then it'll be a true upgrade.

    If previous discussions of this topic are anything to go by this'll be an interesting and no doubt heated conversation.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Ken & Don's Anti Workshop 2016 will be very exciting this year!!!

    Dave Gallagher, please put my name against IQ3 100mp tryout!

    Subrata
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    BSI is not all good, there are some challenges with it too related to manufacturing, electrical crosstalk, pixel non-uniformity etc. The A7r-II (BSI) seems to have (very) slightly worse DR than the older A7r. I think the main advantage of BSI so far is good high ISO, not better DR at base ISO.

    I don't think this new sensor is a BSI sensor, but it's just a pure guess. We'll find out at some point. I don't think it's actual 15 stops either (DxOMark per pixel definition, but indeed downsampled 8MP definition they will probably do it), something also time will tell.

    It's surely 100 MP and 645 fullframe and all the usual CMOS advantages though, and I think it's so revolutionary that I would not be surprised if the IQ3 is the last range with CCD sensors in them, because who's going to want to buy a new 80MP CCD now with this new king of the hill?
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    BSI is not all good, there are some challenges with it too related to manufacturing, electrical crosstalk, pixel non-uniformity etc. The A7r-II (BSI) seems to have (very) slightly worse DR than the older A7r. I think the main advantage of BSI so far is good high ISO, not better DR at base ISO.

    I don't think this new sensor is a BSI sensor, but it's just a pure guess. We'll find out at some point. I don't think it's actual 15 stops either (DxOMark definition), something also time will tell.

    It's surely 100 MP and 645 fullframe and all the usual CMOS advantages though, and I think it's so revolutionary that I would not be surprised if the IQ3 is the last range with CCD sensors in them, because who's going to want to buy a new 80MP CCD now with this new king of the hill?
    Well if it's not BSI then it's probably not going to work well with tech wide angles. Alpa currently have only posted a sample with the 90 HR-SW, but not yet the 32 HR-W.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    IMO, while this is welcome advancement, Phase One have put themselves into a corner for a competitor to emerge. Sony has Phase One by the boot straps with sensor development as they have demonstrated they will sell the same sensor to anyone (Pentax rocked the 50MP implement for a lot cheaper) and if their contract allows them to use the sensor and SONY releases a mirrorless MF camera with interchangeable lenses, it will be tough times for Phase One. I personally don't ever want to own a camera with an optical viewfinder ever again as I think there are some incredible tools gained by mirrorless for landscape work and I enjoy the smaller size for traveling. I really do think Sony could release an MF camera this year. Will it be as fine tuned as a Phase One probably not but it will probably be incredible for the price advantage. We all want incredible cameras with the best IQ but at $48K, there is an awful amount of room for Sony to step in and make a move. Even if they came out with an 80MP CMOS mirrorless MF camera and charged $24K, it will take a lot of business from Phase One. I am grateful I sold my IQ180 this last year and have been pleasantly surprised at how nice the photos from the A7RII with OTUS lenses are. Some disadvantages but the Sony is so much more capable in multiple circumstances. Still waiting for the day I get a digital 617 camera. Your thoughts?
    Last edited by markymarkrb; 3rd January 2016 at 16:01.
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Very curious to see if Pentax introduces a 100MP camera with this sensor and if so, what the price point will be.
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    Very curious to see if Pentax introduces a 100MP camera with this sensor and if so, what the price point will be.
    I think Pentax's latest 645 lenses do not cover Full Frame MF with the image circle so I don't know if Pentax would get it. That being said, I think Sony could go for it and reintroduce Zeiss MF lenses that we have missed so much from Contax.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    The IQ3 100MP has a slightly greater pixel density than the 50MP version. There is a possibility that the 100MP is an enlarged version of the IMX251 (A7R-II), which suggests possibility of BSI design, which suggests possibility of compatibility with symmetric wide angles
    This was my first thought as well (though I'm just a kibitzer here, still shooting 4x5 film). The only thing I'll add is that DPReview announced the new Phase One back with an express speculation that the press release's reference to "exceptional wide angle response" suggested a version of the Sony a7RII's sensor. But then the DPReview announcement was edited to delete that reference (or at least I can't find it again). Maybe DPReview learned this was wrong. Also, wouldn't Doug Peterson know the specs? He did mention that there would be tech camera tests, but don't think he addressed the BSI design question. So maybe not. But I may be way off.
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Good. Maybe the price of the used 60mp and 80mp backs will drop enough to put my ALPA TC into use.
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    I think Pentax's latest 645 lenses do not cover Full Frame MF with the image circle so I don't know if Pentax would get it. That being said, I think Sony could go for it and reintroduce Zeiss MF lenses that we have missed so much from Contax.
    The more I think about it, the more I think it wouldn't make sense for Sony not to introduce a medium format system. It doesn't seem that Phase One would have enough volume on its own to sufficiently monetize Sony's investment. They already supply sensors to Nikon on one hand, then compete with them on another. I can easily see them doing the same with Phase One.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    i think if it would be BSI, they would have mentioned it big time in the announcement.

    great system for sure, but since it no longer supports the contax 645(since iq3 introduction) i will be looking for an iq1(2)80 at some given point

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Pretty safe to assume Hasselblad will follow with an announcement soon enough. Still, Leaf customers will wait for a firmware to use Credo backs on the XF...

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mgreer316 View Post
    The more I think about it, the more I think it wouldn't make sense for Sony not to introduce a medium format system. It doesn't seem that Phase One would have enough volume on its own to sufficiently monetize Sony's investment. They already supply sensors to Nikon on one hand, then compete with them on another. I can easily see them doing the same with Phase One.
    I'm not so sure. Perhaps Sony might invest in a loss leading camera solution to elevate the brand but to be honest I don't think that they really need to given the success of their A7/A7xII series cameras. Better to leave it to Phase One, Hasselblad, Pentax to duke it out over what must be a miniscule market compared to Sony's mirrorless market. How would you justify the investment in lenses for this format for a start? A true medium format RX2 with a fixed lens, aka a modern day Mamiya 6/7/Fuji 680/690 with a single Zeiss lens option perhaps?

    That said, it's not at all unknown for Sony to build those loss leader technology advancing solutions that make no sense economically. However, given their current money losing state would this be justifiable?

    But hey, what do I know? If I knew these answers I wouldn't still be working for a living!

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    Pretty safe to assume Hasselblad will follow with an announcement soon enough.
    I'd buy a much cheaper Hasselblad 100mp back in a heartbeat given what I know about trade in options for my IQ150. If the 50c is anything to go by, the differential price would be more than enough to let me keep my current CMOS back (which is still AWESOME btw) and add the newer uber resolution back as well. I can live with a 50mp on a DSLR platform and 100mp on a technical / mini-view camera solution with the best glass on the planet.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    I'd buy a much cheaper Hasselblad 100mp back in a heartbeat given what I know about trade in options for my IQ150. If the 50c is anything to go by, the differential price would be more than enough to let me keep my current CMOS back (which is still AWESOME btw) and add the newer uber resolution back as well. I can live with a 50mp on a DSLR platform and 100mp on a technical / mini-view camera solution with the best glass on the planet.
    Do you think Hasselblad will improve the LCC functions (i.e. scene calibration) in Phocus well enough? If this 100 MP sensor is not BSI then...

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Do you think Hasselblad will improve the LCC functions (i.e. scene calibration) in Phocus well enough? If this 100 MP sensor is not BSI then...
    Well actually my wallet dictates that I'll wait and see.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Waiting a bit for some test results and doing financial planning sounds like a good idea, but I was never a fan of speculating what manufacturers will do in the future. If you can make money with the camera now, you should buy it now. There has been talk of a P1 100MP back for a few years, that's a long wait if you have work to do. If you hardly make money with it but can afford it anyway it only matters which camera system you want.
    Sure, Sony might step in, but don't have anything besides a sensor yet. And given the financial trouble surrounding the MF companies in recent years, I doubt if they want to invest in a lot of development. A fixed lens mirrorless might be on the cards, but the market for it is probably smaller than he MF market now. And since they already make money on every sensor, investing in development of a body in the style of the a7 doesn't make sense either.

    This news might be best for the used back buyers, as a new king of the hill always brings quite a few of the last one to the market.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    This is so far out of reach for me that I won't even speculate over what I could sell to finance it. However, this is exactly what medium format needs. Real sensor development both with regards to size, resolution, DR and all the rest. Hopefully, enough photographers can afford this beast to keep MF alive and weel. Congratulations to all photographers!
    Things I sell: https://www.shutterstock.com/g/epixx?language=en
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    This is finally the MFDB which many have been waiting for - real MF-FF - KUDOS to Phase One!

    Having said that this is built as a money earning machine, especially with that price tag. So better you can earn that money within the first 2 years with the projects you realize with that back, or you need to be very wealthy to afford it.

    I am definitely not in this game anymore, but still interested in results and the further development of digital MF photography.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Do you think there will ever be a CMOS FF medium format chip with fewer pixels ?
    Phase One's pricing policy by the Mpix makes the 100 Mpix version just crazy expensive. Or perhaps Hassi will make a CFV at a more "reasonable" price (20k-30k Euros ?).
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  35. #85
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Hi,

    No, I don't think so. Why not? Because it would need another sensor design, meaning a lot of extra effort.

    I would guess that Phase One will make an "affordable" version with some less features like the IQ-250/IQ-150 pairing.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Do you think there will ever be a CMOS FF medium format chip with fewer pixels ?
    Phase One's pricing policy by the Mpix makes the 100 Mpix version just crazy expensive. Or perhaps Hassi will make a CFV at a more "reasonable" price (20k-30k Euros ?).

  36. #86
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Hi Anders,

    Bart van der Wolf calculated the DR based on the raw sample he got from DigitalTransitions and found that DR was 13.65 (on the pixel level), but he did not know if it was 14 or 16 bit mode. Anyway 13.65 would put it on the same level as Nikon D810 and quite a bit above the A7rII (12.69 if I remember correctly). But Nikon and Pentax used to make better use of Sony's sensors than Sony themselves, or at least so it seems. Bart's figure seem pretty credible to me. Pulling another 1.4 EV out of the hat just doesn't seem very likely.

    http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/...0768#msg880768

    I guess the great news is that Phase One now has a state of the art CMOS sensor with excellent live view that fills the 645 format. Should make view camera users happy, if it works with the wide angle lenses they have.

    Now, getting back to the DxO scaling of DR makes a lot of sense. MFD users of course always mistrusted DxO, but that may change once DxO presents data for the new backs. If they do, that is.

    Best regards
    Erik

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    BSI is not all good, there are some challenges with it too related to manufacturing, electrical crosstalk, pixel non-uniformity etc. The A7r-II (BSI) seems to have (very) slightly worse DR than the older A7r. I think the main advantage of BSI so far is good high ISO, not better DR at base ISO.

    I don't think this new sensor is a BSI sensor, but it's just a pure guess. We'll find out at some point. I don't think it's actual 15 stops either (DxOMark per pixel definition, but indeed downsampled 8MP definition they will probably do it), something also time will tell.

    It's surely 100 MP and 645 fullframe and all the usual CMOS advantages though, and I think it's so revolutionary that I would not be surprised if the IQ3 is the last range with CCD sensors in them, because who's going to want to buy a new 80MP CCD now with this new king of the hill?

  37. #87
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Hi,

    Yes great news, I think. But a lot of questions unanswered, like how it works with wide angles. The 15 bit of DR speaks a bit against BSI as it is said that BSI is a bit problematic with regard to DR. Indeed the Sony A7r has a bit better DR than the A7rII. BSI gives about 1/3 of a stop improvement in ISO, so it is not such a great step.

    Bart measured DR on the image he got from DigitalTransaction: http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/...0768#msg880768

    He got 13.65EV, in line with the Nikon D810 sensor. A state of the art figure.

    The figure that they use may be the scaled value DxO-mark is using. DxO has two values, screen and print. Print is based on 8MP.

    So you divide 100/8 -> 12.5. Take square root of 12.5 -> 3.5. Take log(3.5) / log(2) and get 1.8 EV. You add that 1.8 EV to Bart's mesaured data and end up with a normalised DR of 15.4 EV. No doubt that would put the IQ3 100MP on top of DxO-mark, well ahead Pentax 645Z at 101 points.

    On the other hand, I don't think it really matters. Very difficult to utilise that DR is.

    The great news I think that there is a full frame solution for real time viewing for technical camera users. Hopefully with peaking which is a godsend when finding optimal tilt.

    I think it is a great solution and would buy immediately if I could find the necessary change!

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    I think 15 stops of DR with clean higher ISO's makes BSI a pretty good bet.

    Any way you slice it, this is a(nother) breakthrough piece of imaging equipment -- kudos to Phase!

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Do you think there will ever be a CMOS FF medium format chip with fewer pixels ?
    Phase One's pricing policy by the Mpix makes the 100 Mpix version just crazy expensive. Or perhaps Hassi will make a CFV at a more "reasonable" price (20k-30k Euros ?).
    No I don't think so, because it won't be a product that sells well. Megapixel is king, and you can easily see that on the second hand market, when Canon launched their 50MP cameras and Sony with 42MP the 33-40MP CCD backs suddenly got considerably harder to sell.

    While there is a small group of users that have MFD due to MFD features like a large viewfinder, leaf shutters, tech camera movements or whatever, the number one reason people upgrade from 135 digital to MFD digital is to get better image quality and then you want more pixels. The users that don't care that much about resolution or the latest DR numbers are often using older gear.

    And indeed if you're prepared to buy second hand you can get away quite "cheap", and I'm sure the second hand market will improve a lot for higher end CCDs with this new release. In the short term the higher end CCDs are protected by the ultra-high price of this new CMOS, but I'm sure there will be more reasonably priced products within a year or so.

    Phase One is the brand to have if you want the latest highest end image quality first. If you have the patience to lag a year there's more economical alternatives.

  39. #89
    Senior Member Hulyss Bowman's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Do you think there will ever be a CMOS FF medium format chip with fewer pixels ?
    Phase One's pricing policy by the Mpix makes the 100 Mpix version just crazy expensive. Or perhaps Hassi will make a CFV at a more "reasonable" price (20k-30k Euros ?).
    I am sensitive about this subject. Your wish is very actual and legitimate imho. I'd rather want a 16bit 22MP "FF" CMOS back around the price of a D4 or 1Dx. Just the back; so between 5.5 to 7 K€.

    At this price they would sell a lot, even 22 MP backs. The "look" of a larger sensor is often more important than the pixel number...
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by miska View Post
    Phase One's pricing policy by the Mpix makes the 100 Mpix version just crazy expensive.
    Back - Year of Introduction - Price

    P65+ - 2009 - $40k (not sure if that included the value added warranty)
    IQ180 - 2011 - $44K
    IQ280 - 2013 - $44K
    IQ3 80 - 2015 - $44K
    IQ3 100 - 2016 - $44K

    Seems like good value when you look at it like that...
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  41. #91
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    No I don't think so, because it won't be a product that sells well. Megapixel is king, and you can easily see that on the second hand market, when Canon launched their 50MP cameras and Sony with 42MP the 33-40MP CCD backs suddenly got considerably harder to sell.

    While there is a small group of users that have MFD due to MFD features like a large viewfinder, leaf shutters, tech camera movements or whatever, the number one reason people upgrade from 135 digital to MFD digital is to get better image quality and then you want more pixels. The users that don't care that much about resolution or the latest DR numbers are often using older gear.

    And indeed if you're prepared to buy second hand you can get away quite "cheap", and I'm sure the second hand market will improve a lot for higher end CCDs with this new release. In the short term the higher end CCDs are protected by the ultra-high price of this new CMOS, but I'm sure there will be more reasonably priced products within a year or so.

    Phase One is the brand to have if you want the latest highest end image quality first. If you have the patience to lag a year there's more economical alternatives.
    The old backs got harder to sell because they are USED and old tech compared to a modern 35 mm camera. To use a DM22 today it a bit complicated... A new low pix count CMOS modern back with tremendous video possibility can be a major seller because MF video is a market too.
    Kind regards - Hulyss - hulyssbowman.com

  42. #92
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    The old backs were used even when the 135 cameras where 24 megapixel tops, no the problem is that pixel count and DR numbers are not competitive any longer, and pixel count and sharpness is the number one reason that sells MFD, not "look". There are exceptions of course (I'm personally one of them), but they're too few to make business.

    A low MP digital back just won't fly, and for the record it will probably not be much cheaper to manufacture either, but rather the opposite as they would need to develop some big pixel tech specifically for that rather than relying on their 135 pixel tech and just enlarge the surface.

    To make it cheaper make it smaller size. 44x33mm will be the cheap alternative now when 54x41mm is here at last.

    This is a megapixel race wether we like it or not, and it will continue to be that for quite some time...

    I think low pixel count is a bad idea due to aliasing issues, however I think lens look/weight/cost vs resolving power is a good tradeoff to make, but also there we see that there's only one parameter that really counts for the big business -- resolving power.

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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    the sensor looks great for those looking for huge file sizes, and presuming it’s just a bigger A7rII chip the image quality is already known to be very good.
    kudos to Sony for producing a 645 sensor, shame they didn’t go full frame but that’s unlikely to ever happen due to the last 10 years of lens design based on a crop format.
    look forward to seeing the hassleblad and pentax ‘value’ versions that will undoubtably follow as competition is always good.

    photographically/fiscally it’s a non-starter for my business as it would not increase revenue or bring in any new clients but i’m sure in the right circles it will be a big seller.
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.
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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    photographically/fiscally it’s a non-starter for my business as it would not increase revenue or bring in any new clients but i’m sure in the right circles it will be a big seller.
    Sometimes, if you can afford it, there's nothing to justify about getting the best. That way the only limiting factor is you and there is absolutely no opportunity to blame the equipment. Heck it's why some people drive Porsches/BMWs/Cadillacs/Lexus's vs Fords & Chevys; they all get between A and B. For a working pro however, real world economics of business vs hobby/obsession/work distraction come into play and that's a completely different ROI justification. (And why you might drive a panel van or F350 extra cab vs a Mercedes SUV).

    If I can fund it, an IQ3 100 is definitely on my radar at some point even if reluctantly not immediately. (and as I believe I may have posted before, I'm still in the honeymoon phase with my IQ150 after nearly a year).
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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  45. #95
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by markymarkrb View Post
    I think Pentax's latest 645 lenses do not cover Full Frame MF with the image circle so I don't know if Pentax would get it. That being said, I think Sony could go for it and reintroduce Zeiss MF lenses that we have missed so much from Contax.
    The only Pentax lenses which do not cover full 645 are the DA 25mm and 28-45mm, while every other lens does, including the D-FA 25/4, 35/3.5, 55/2.8, and 90/2.8 lenses. It would be interesting to see which focal length the 28-45 will cover out to, probably around 32mm.
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  46. #96
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    The "best" is not necessarily going to be the IQ3 100 depending on how you shoot. We're still waiting for that 32HR test. What if it doesn't shift well? Use SLR wide angles and do software perspective correct? Sounds boring to me.

    If it does shift well, better than the IQ250, then it will be the greatest news for the tech cam genre in years. Considering the amount of tech cam shooters on this forum this should be the number one thing to test.
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  47. #97
    Senior Member ondebanks's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    The happy stuff:

    I've been waiting for this day since 2002!

    Yes, seriously, that long. Canon's first low-noise CMOS SLR, the EOS-D60 of 2002, set a new standard for clean sensitivity (high ISO + long exposure) that full-frame medium format had not caught up with - until now. The XF 100MP is way out of my price league, but still excellent news for us lovers of medium format systems, and the Mamiya 645 in particular.

    We are finally back to the norms of the film days: when cameras all had the same image quality on a per-square-mm-of-capture-area basis, and medium format was king purely because it was bigger. [OK, I probably said the same thing when the 50MP CMOS backs came out, but they were cropped-medium-format; e.g. the 24mm fisheye cannot do its full 180-degree fisheye thing on them. This is a really big step forward].


    The critical stuff:

    Why is it, yet again, that Phase One cannot supply its dealers and potential customers with the full pertinent technical details of a product that is shipping? Here we all are, Doug included, stabbing in the dark as to whether:

    1. this is a BSI sensor or not?
    2. the claimed 15 MP DR is per pixel or not?
    3. it behaves well with tech-cam lenses or not?
    4. it takes a mandatory dark frame in long exposures or not?
    5. the full signal chain including ADC is 16 bits or not?


    Ray
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  48. #98
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    but they were cropped-medium-format; e.g. the 24mm fisheye cannot do its full 180-degree fisheye thing on them.
    Unfortunately for single exposure the 44x33 crop sensor + 23HR combo is wider than the fullframe sensor + 32HR combo, assuming that the 32HR works with it at all. If you mount a 23HR on a fullframe sensor then you cannot shift. Sometimes it's not the bigger the wider. A good example would be the Voigtlander FE-mount 10mm fullframe rectilinear lens, wider than 11-24mm on a 5DSR or a 17mm TSE on an IQ3 100MP.

    (But I do agree that the IQ3 100 MP is the new king!)

    Quote Originally Posted by ondebanks View Post
    it takes a mandatory dark frame in long exposures or not?
    I can't think why they would disable the Aerial option in the IQ3 100MP. You could have disabled the darkframe NR ever since the first IQ series I believe (but only CMOS would get least penalized IQ.)

  49. #99
    Senior Member Quentin_Bargate's Avatar
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    This thread was started essentially as a Phase One marketing release, complete with front page supporting publicity, given that Doug is a Phase One dealer. Nothing wrong with that so long as you are aware of the situation, and its clearly a great new product. However, the problem with MFD and the reason I no longer use it in the field is sheer impracticality. By the time you earn enough to buy the kit, your body is too old to carry it around!

    Then when one gets in to stitching, how many photographers would really find the results from, say, a Sony A7RII 3 or 4 image stitch to be an inadequate, second rate solution? Not many I would think.

    Similar or better quality to a 100mp back has always been available if you use an 8x10 field camera and film. The reason most of us don't use it is sheer inconvenience. I see inconvenience (as well as price) as still being significant impediments MF digital cannot overcome, regardless of the pixel count.

    Still, happy to test out the kit if anyone will lend me a back and camera
    Quentin Bargate
    Director of Bargate Murray, Law Firm of the Year 2012 - 2017, ”leading individual”, Chambers HNW guide, 2017, Photographer
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    Re: Phase One IQ3 100mp. Shipping now. Full frame CMOS. HDMI.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    If I can fund it, an IQ3 100 is definitely on my radar at some point even if reluctantly not immediately. (and as I believe I may have posted before, I'm still in the honeymoon phase with my IQ150 after nearly a year).
    Oh no! If the thieves took your IQ150, then we could see the wrath of the Dante strikes sooner! Come on! While the IQ3 100MP drops value, the IQ150 would also keep dropping value, making the upgrade cost about a constant over time; however if you upgrade sooner then you would have more time to enjoy the new monster before it becomes old ("old, but not obsolete")

    I have heard rumors that the 135 format will reach 100 MP in about 2-3 year's time from Sony's sensor department. Time waits no one! Time is money! Don't let the new technology depreciate before you can enjoy it! Life is soooo short!!!
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