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Thread: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

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    Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    hello,

    i used to photograph with a 5diii in the studio and outside.
    for landscape photography and productshoots i whish to take pictures for larger prints than actually with my 20mp system.
    i usually use a tripod for those pictures.

    for my canon system i own a lot of prime lenses also the 24mm and 17mm tilt shitfs and the 70-200mm 2.8II
    for my 503 and my 553 ELX "analog" hasselblads i have the 50mm, 80mm, 100mm, 150mm, 250mm

    i still think about the possibility buying a 5drs with the 50mp - knowing that the dynamic range and so on .... is not a real mediumformat
    buying a CFV-50c for the Hasselblad is a higher investment but with a great dynamic range, mediumformat-look and of course 50mp.

    buying the hasselblad back always make me think about the future of mediumformat and the generell flexibility of this CFV-50 system in the studio (liveview, focusing....)

    !!!
    one big fact is, that none of my clients asked for mediumformat quality!
    i just need this for my personal development.

    whats your opinion - suggestions?

    best michael
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Canon has something unique with their TS-E 24 and 17 concerning relative shift range and good performance. If you have a good copy of the 24 lens and use a 5Ds you easily outperform my H4D-50 with SK35 tech lens for larger shifts (I've made direct comparisons).

    If pixelpeeping is your thing using a CFV-50c on a Hassy V system will probably be stressful, you'll feel hunted by the best 135 glass and sensors. If you like the handling, shooting process and the look of your Hasselblad lenses and don't care too much about pixelpeeping then you'll enjoy the CFV-50c.

    Those that get MFD primarily for the resolving power always strive to have the latest and that means a whole different budget. I see over and over on this and other forums as soon as someone says anything about MFD performance and point out they have a bit older gear people say that they really should switch to the latest gear to experience "real medium format". The standards move forward all the time. If it's important for you to follow the latest and you have a limited budget staying on 135 is naturally the better choice.

    If you find enjoyment out of the other factors that's not resolving power or DR or other technical aspects of image quality getting that MFD back can be a good idea, and the CFV-50c is great value.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Hi,
    As you're already an existing Canon owner I strongly recommend the 5DSr.

    Best Canon sensor ever, best dynamic range from Canon so far and you've a much better choice of wide angle solutions available to you.

    Medium format is still nice to shoot with but after a while that feeling can wear off and the difference in weight, portability, service levels start to become more of an annoyance.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    thank you for your tipps.... i really tend to the 5dsr ... but the dynamic range ?
    i have read several posts where people are not enthusiastic about the dynamic range - really an improvment over the 5diii?
    (did you use an ND grad filter for this picture ...? - looks great )

    (i hope that i have a chance to rent a 5drs this weekend... - if yes i will post a product shoot in highres)
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    thank you for your tipps.... i really tend to the 5dsr ... but the dynamic range ?
    i have read several posts where people are not enthusiastic about the dynamic range - really an improvment over the 5diii?
    (did you use an ND grad filter for this picture ...? - looks great )

    (i hope that i have a chance to rent a 5drs this weekend... - if yes i will post a product shoot in highres)
    Canon is still behind when it comes to the DR, but the 5Ds(r) (and also 7DmkII) has a significant improvement over the previous Canon sensors including the 5Dmk3.

    In any case I'd suggest that you get some test raws and take a specific look on the DR to see if it's good enough for your needs. It's not as good as a Sony A7r. But it's not bad and I think it will be good enough especially since you get an improvement from what you're used to with the 5Dmk3.
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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    If dynamic range is a real issue I would still say to shy away from medium format and get a D810 instead. Same reasoning as I mentioned above. But you'll be exchanging 50mp for a lower pixel count.

    With the 5DSr at base ISO you get a good three stops push and two stops pull which I think is enough really. I mean thinking about it, if the 5DSr had 5 stops clean at base and the the 645z had 7 stops people would still say Canon were behind.

    Photographers have never had it so good.

    That photo I posted was from a single exposure, handheld, using the 16-35 F4.
    Chris Giles Photography
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    thank you ... changing to a nikon system doesn´t make a sense too me as i have 9 prime lenses from canon. by the way the nikon 810 is a great instrument.

    for me, medium format has always two special things over the megapixels - the depth of field and dynamic range (shorter sync time too)
    but as i read more and more about the canon 5dr(s) it should be the right instrument for my pixel-development in the studio.
    (and having a good light also improves sharpness and quality.... love my broncolor-lamps ;-))
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    one big fact is, that none of my clients asked for mediumformat quality!
    i just need this for my personal development.

    whats your opinion - suggestions?

    best michael
    My clients never asked for medium format quality, either. Now they just expect it when hiring me. Innovation and staying ahead of the "dwac" (dude with a Canon) has helped my business.

    I originally bought into MFD for a small segment of my business, Art Repro. Quickly learned the system had so many benefits beyond just resolution and color accuracy! Over the years it has insinuated itself into every aspect of my studio from art report, to product, to architectural, to fashion, and now even scanning and prepress! I may even use it for fine art landscape someday just for kicks and who knows?
    It had drawbacks too, such as price and clunkiness,so I kept my Canon gear on the side and re-purposed it for those tasks it was better suited for. For a long time the Canon gear just hung out in a box, pulled out to train new hires and for small format jobs like web and location fashion. For a long time I even used the Canon gear to give me decent Live View right next to the MFD gear that actually took the picture.

    The small format gear like the Canons, Sonys, and Nikons can do things the MFD gear can not do and vice versa. They are tools. Means to an end.

    These days I'm taking guesses on what my clients will want from us over next 3 years (even though they don't even know yet what they will want) and investing in other areas like lighting, post-proc skills, and even getting feet wet with video and 3D rendering...

    For a professional photographer, to quote Dickens: "It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...etc"

    Enjoy the ride whichever way you choose!

    e
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    My opinion on this:
    - Keep your existing Canon gun for everything fast.
    - Get a CFV50c to enjoy this "zen moment" in photography ;-) You won't regret it.

    My 2 cents,
    Ralf
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    From the brief play I've had with a 5DsR I could barely see any actual quality difference to my 3-4 year old 1Dx - i.e. I know it has more pixels and resolves more detail but in general, the picture to me looked incredibly similar. Underwhelmed was an understatement.

    Theres a lot to be said for keeping the brain ticking. Get the MF.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    I am in the same boat as you are. I am a advanced amateur and still like using my old 5D along with my medium and large format film cameras. I am leaning towards a Pentax 645z or the 5dsr. The reason why I don't like the Pentax 645z is because they don't have a lens similar to the Canon 16-35 f4. I am really into wide angle photography. The thing I might do is rent a Pentax from Lens Rentals when they offer a discount. I rented a canon g5x to compare to my canon and I am glad I rented. It enabled me to get an idea on how the camera operated and I didn't have to worry about selling it on ebay. Just paid 80.00 for 4 days and sent it back. To me 80.00 is a dinner and a drink.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    "These days I'm taking guesses on what my clients will want from us over next 3 years “

    moving image as well as stills
    stills from moving image
    stills as well as moving image
    moving image
    stills
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by MrSmith View Post
    "These days I'm taking guesses on what my clients will want from us over next 3 years “

    moving image as well as stills
    stills from moving image
    stills as well as moving image
    moving image
    stills
    Good guesses, Mr.Smith!
    Those aren't the calls I made, but we'll see

    You seem a little preoccupied with the phrase "moving images" I like it

    Best,

    e
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    hello,

    i used to photograph with a 5diii in the studio and outside.
    for landscape photography and productshoots i whish to take pictures for larger prints than actually with my 20mp system.
    i usually use a tripod for those pictures.

    for my canon system i own a lot of prime lenses also the 24mm and 17mm tilt shitfs and the 70-200mm 2.8II
    for my 503 and my 553 ELX "analog" hasselblads i have the 50mm, 80mm, 100mm, 150mm, 250mm

    i still think about the possibility buying a 5drs with the 50mp - knowing that the dynamic range and so on .... is not a real mediumformat
    buying a CFV-50c for the Hasselblad is a higher investment but with a great dynamic range, mediumformat-look and of course 50mp.

    buying the hasselblad back always make me think about the future of mediumformat and the generell flexibility of this CFV-50 system in the studio (liveview, focusing....)

    !!!
    one big fact is, that none of my clients asked for mediumformat quality!
    i just need this for my personal development.

    whats your opinion - suggestions?

    best michael
    Get the 5DSr. You have the lenses and the experience of working with the 5D3 which is quite similar in operation.

    Medium Format Digital is more than just extra resolution, it's the workflow, connectivity (tethering and image processing performance is amazing specially with the PhaseOne and Leaf backs and C1pro), optics and camera platform options. Generally expect much less wide angle lens options with Medium Format Digital (although there are plenty). It is another world of photography gear. Come on in if you want and have some money to spend. I did and love it.

    I first got a 645D and liked the body but did not like the lenses. I sold it a month after and got a PhaseOne IQ160 and Arca RM3Di body with a 40mm HR-W lens plus a Hasselblad H1 slr and 80mm f2.8 lens. Yes it was pretty big expense but man, it has been an awesome experience using the gear in a wide range of situations and producing some very nice images in the process.

    The D810 is probably the best value option for very high quality Landscape and Architecture. Industry leading low iso dynamic range, good live view, good battery performance and a complete lens selection. Although since you do not own any Nikon lenses it will be more expensive option than the 5DSr.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    thank you ... changing to a nikon system doesn´t make a sense too me as i have 9 prime lenses from canon. by the way the nikon 810 is a great instrument.
    i agree ...

    I had a good buddy in San Diego, canon shooter debating on the 5dsr. I suggested he seriously look at the Sony a7rII and metabones adaptor.

    That’s what he went with (mainly for the DR) and he’s been a happy camper ...

    I would recommend you take a good look at that option.

    I had a d800 system (switched from Canon) , (including 35/50/100macro zeiss primes) and I’ve moved to the sony. I still use the nikon glass on it, but gradually migrating to other glass (probably BAtis 25mm, sony 50 and 90mm) because the weight and size are a big deal to my aging body.

    Admittedly it’s not my main system (I currently have an IQ380 on either a Phase One XF system or arca swiss tech system), but I like what I”m getting out of the sony when I do use it.
    wayne
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    i agree ...

    I had a good buddy in San Diego, canon shooter debating on the 5dsr. I suggested he seriously look at the Sony a7rII and metabones adaptor.

    That’s what he went with (mainly for the DR) and he’s been a happy camper ...

    I would recommend you take a good look at that option.
    For our small format needs, I couldn't make up my mind between those two options (Sony and Canon) so we got both and are testing which we will like more.

    -Canon 5DSr has new sensor and uses existing Canon glass and is a well known and usable character in the studio = no downtime, out of box up and running strong

    -Sony A7Rll has new sensor and better stats/performance on paper; but represents a whole new system to learn and work with + adaptors and workflow...etc.

    Just hit the ground after New Year's break and hitting the books on the Sony
    Jury is still out and will be for quite some time. Like I said earlier, these small format machines can do some things our MFD can not and vice versa, so looking at where they fill holes best. So far, the 5DSr is what we are using most (for those types of jobs). But thats just because its the most seamless with our previous Canons for that type of work.

    Both are overkill, resolution-wise for what we use them for (mostly web based content and animation/cgi type stuff) We aren't trying to replace MFD with them.

    For video work we decided to ditch both and go with dedicated video cam and just concentrate on studio stills with the new cams.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    thank you ... changing to a nikon system doesn´t make a sense too me as i have 9 prime lenses from canon. by the way the nikon 810 is a great instrument.

    for me, medium format has always two special things over the megapixels - the depth of field and dynamic range (shorter sync time too)
    but as i read more and more about the canon 5dr(s) it should be the right instrument for my pixel-development in the studio.
    (and having a good light also improves sharpness and quality.... love my broncolor-lamps ;-))
    Your Canon system is already top grade and I would say the 5DS(R) is a milestone in the 135 format. It has forced the 2nd-hand prices of medium format digital backs to drop, just like the D800(E) did 3 years earlier. If Canon suits your shooting style then I see no point to mess with other systems around.

    Advantages of the Canon system:

    a) Access to incredible wide angle lenses, such like the 17mm TS-E, 24mm TS-E, 11-24mm L, 16-35mm IS, 35mm L II etc. You will find no such lenses with matching performance in other systems for now.

    b) Far better autofocus performance than medium format.

    c) Far better low-light performance than medium format thanks to faster apertures. The aperture of the medium format lenses are generally slower and when you take this into consideration, Canon wins in image quality thanks to lower ISO settings.

    d) Better DoF control than medium format thanks to faster apertures. Below shows for the same model with height 170cm tall, if you shoot her in portrait orientation from head to waist, how large the circle of confusion can get (normalized for the frame) with respect to distance behind the model. Here the crop factor 0.79 is based on the 44mm x 33mm of the CFV-50C, and the crop factor 0.64 is based on the 54mm x 40mm of the Phase One IQ3 100MP. As you can see, normal Hasselblad lenses will not match the degree of bokehliciousness of the Canon lenses. Even if one manages to mount the legendary Hasselblad 300mm f2.8 onto a Phase One IQ3 100MP (probably via ALPA 12 FPS or something else) it is still defeated by the Sigma 200-500mm f2.8 lens mounted on a Canon 5DSR. The only way for medium format to win this bokeh battle is to use the Zeiss 1700mm f4, which is not affordable to most photographers on the planet.

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    Disadvantages of the Canon system:

    a) The f1.2 lenses will get the bokeh cut thanks to the blockage cause by the mirror box of the digital Canon DSLRs. This will effectively reduce the degree of bokehliciousness. If you mount the f1.2 lenses via ALPA 12 FPS onto a Phase One digital back e.g. IQ260 you would see that there will be no cut of bokeh. I don't think Canon will address this issue.

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    b) Dynamic range: if this is really important to you then Canon is not a good choice (and CCD digital back is not a good choice either). Currently the best rated Canon camera in terms of dynamic range is indeed the G7X, which features a 1" Sony sensor inside. Pixel-wise, i.e. without normalization down to 8MP, the dynamic range of the 5DS(R) is still the same as the old Canon technology e.g. 7D.

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    Even Dpreview has criticized the dynamic range of the 5DS(R): there can be scenes where DR is not within your control even if you have the most expensive and largest Broncolor with you.

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    Personally I have compared the 5DSR against the IQ250, which uses the same Sony IMX161 sensor as in the CFV-50C and you can see the dynamic range difference here in terms of shadow noise:

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    You could further check the dynamic range ratings by Bill Claff here: Photographic Dynamic Range versus ISO Setting

    I would say that if dynamic range is important for you then get a camera with a Sony sensor inside, e.g. Phase One IQ3 100MP, Hasselblad CFV-50C, Nikon D810, Sony A7R-II etc.

    You could also wait until Pentax and Hasselblad gains access to the 100MP Sony CMOS sensor in a couple of months (presumably, according to rumors).

    I know quite a few people who sold out their Canon glasses and switched to Nikon back in 2012 when they first saw the shadow recoverability of the D800E. If you are not willing to switch (and I don't think you have to) then the Sony A7R-II provides a great alternative option. However due to its BSI and 5-axis IS design, the dynamic range is not so good as the Nikon counterparts, which is especially true for long exposure. You could read more in Jim Kasson's test results here about the overheating: a7RII self-heating for long exposures: Sony Alpha Full Frame E-mount Talk Forum: Digital Photography Review
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    question - can i use the cfv-50c with a phase xf or a h5x system?
    other side: can i use an IQ1 40 for a 503 Hasselblad System ?

    actually i will use it only for productshoots and landscapes - maybe later i want to invest in a system like the XF with the schneider lenses.
    i want to be prepared for that....
    [ no picture ]

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    The 50c will not work with the XF. Only IQ backs current work. There is a statement that the credo backs will in the future. Now the XF shipments are caught up that might happen sooner than later.

    I don't think Phase has plans to support the 50c.

    Hasselblad has made a statement that in the future they will open their platform to other mounts. But I also would not expect that to happen for a while.

    It's also probably fair to say that if Phase One adds features to the XF even some of the gen 1 IQ backs will not see the new features.

    Paul C
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by gmfotografie View Post
    question - can i use the cfv-50c with a phase xf or a h5x system?
    other side: can i use an IQ1 40 for a 503 Hasselblad System ?

    actually i will use it only for productshoots and landscapes - maybe later i want to invest in a system like the XF with the schneider lenses.
    i want to be prepared for that....
    All the IQ1xx and IQ2xx PhaseOne backs come in Hasselblad V mount. The IQ backs are awesome and the best backs bar none. They have a great LCD touch screen and interface plus great tethering and image processing performance with C1Pro. It is downhill from there (worse screens and interface) with other backs like Hasselblads. The Leaf Credo backs are similar. Just lacking a few features but the screen and interface + C1Pro integration are also superb. The chief complaint with PhaseOne IQ backs is price but people that have the backs love them.

    If you like the Medium Format look and feel of a larger format I would look into the backs with the larger sensors which are quite similar in size to the image capture area of 645 film. (The 60 and 80mp + the new 100mp models) The 40mp and 50mp CMOS backs have smaller sensors. Still larger than 35mm but 10mm smaller that the large sensors.

    The 50mp CMOS and of course the new 100MP models have the most dynamic range of any camera, including 35mm cameras. The 40, 60 and 80mp backs have more DR than any Canon but are below the Sony sensor cameras.

    I have an IQ160 and I find that in practical use it has a LOT more DR than my Canons (5D3's and 1DS3). Never mind the huge resolution and overall depth of the files which make them much more workable in post production.
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    Hasselblad has made a statement that in the future they will open their platform to other mounts. But I also would not expect that to happen for a while. Paul C
    They sort of did in the release of the X versions of their H series cameras. The H4x and H5x are compatible with the IQ backs in the correct mount.
    Bryan

    “You don’t take a photograph, you make it.” — Ansel Adams

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    In case you'd like to peruse some files and make comparisons:
    Canon vs Phase vs Pentax Raw File Comparison
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Egor View Post
    These days I'm taking guesses on what my clients will want from us over next 3 years.
    All mine have ever wanted and ever will want is my talent / vision and the ideas I bring to the table. They may appreciate it when I give them nice CFV50c files but it is not expected...and they use images in mural size in some cases.

    Bottom line for me in selecting a system is that it *has* to play well with film use regardless of format. No option for me to shoot black and white film? no dice.

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan Stephens View Post
    They sort of did in the release of the X versions of their H series cameras. The H4x and H5x are compatible with the IQ backs in the correct mount.
    It would be interesting though–and I believe that's what they've hinted–is if H made their backs in M mount.

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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    Have a few mins to update so I thought I'd report back:

    OK, got a couple months under our belt now with both Canon and Sony.

    Initial thoughts:

    Pros: -Canon more versatile and as expected, works best with 3rd party softwares like Helicon focus stacking and software that drives rotation platters, easier to hand over to previous canon shooters and they can be up and running without missing a beat. Resolution great, when needed, and equal (resolution-wise) to our IQ250 but with more lens options

    -Sony versatile and smaller as expected, slightly better IQ but not really sure why just yet, looking into it, possibly just better DR and sensor tech

    Cons: -Canon and Sony color and IQ not comparable to MFD (IQ250) in any way shape or form! We feel this may have to do with Canon L glass compared to best Schneider being no contest. We won't consider buying high priced Zeiss glass for Canon which may help there (because if we're gonna do that, why bother? Sony same issue except not as versatile with 3rd part softwares (not yet anyway)
    Metabones adaptor for Sony a pia, limited native Sony lens choices as expected, but fair range when needed


    Canon and Sony color way off mark (but much better than before)
    , and can not be used in mixed groups ecomm shots (thats where we shoot some ecomm shots using one camera and some with a different camera but they all have to go on same page next to each other. When one system is used for all shots on a given page, no problem. And because Canon works with 3rd party softwares....winner=Canon

    We don't like the small format cameras for art repro and textiles accuracy shots for reference (both have tendencies to over saturate and interpret colors weirdly causing too much pp to match or too much fiddle time in C1, but that may just be bias/experience

    eval still ongoing....bottom-line: nobody in studio reaches for either of the small format beasts as 1st choice when setting up a shoot for a client. That honor still goes to MFD and specifically the IQ250

  26. #26
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    Re: Which MF-Back or 5Drs - Studio & Landscape

    What software and profiles did you use? It's hard to talk about camera color and leaving out the profiles.

    In the Kodak vs Dalsa days the hardware had quite large impact, Kodak subjectively saturated and Dalsa more neutral. But even in those days the look was mostly a parameter of the profile, just compare Hasselblad and Phase One. Today all sensor manufacturers strive for some sort of neutrality though and if you design profiles with the intention to look the same different cameras look more similar than one may think...

    If you have a workflow when you make your own profiles I would expect that you have less issues with color differences between the cameras. For super-saturated colors there can still be some differences though.

    I haven't worked specifically with profiling the IQ250, but when comparing a Canon to a Pentax 645z and A7r-II (which both has almost identical responses, except for IR-filter difference it seems) I found the Canon to be easier to work with. The Sony has a very sensitive blue channel, likely for achieving better high ISO, which makes it hard to control super-saturated blues. In tungsten light this is less of a problem though as blue content is then reduced.
    Last edited by torger; 29th February 2016 at 00:48.

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