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Thread: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR etc

  1. #51
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    While I appreciate these test results, is it not fair to say that the results will be rendered mostly invalid after the new patch for C1 is released tomorrow (if delivered as promised)? I.e. the 100 will improve somewhat?
    I still have these RAW files so I will give an update if I find anything has changed at all (other than the LCC bug of v9.0.2).
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    voidshatter,

    Regarding tiling issue and vertical bandings, yes we confirm that when a wide angle technical camera lens is shifted along the shorter edge of the sensor to the extreme, all three digital backs can suffer from the tiling issue...
    I thought that tiling was an adverse effect related only to CCD sensors.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    voidshatter,



    I thought that tiling was an adverse effect related only to CCD sensors.
    If you don't shift that much then it's hardly visible on the CMOS sensors. For my real world usage I have only encountered this once and that was when I was too greedy to shift it to the extreme.

    On the other hand, it is very easy to see that on the CCD sensors even unshifted, and that could be 3 vertical lines in addition. The 8 partitions are clearly visible on a fullframe CCD sensor by eye, but when you stare at the IQ3 100MP surface it looks like a whole (without any partitions at all).

    IQ260+23HR unshifted:

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    IQ260+40HR unshifted but at ISO 200:

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    If it is like it has historically been the suppression banding and tiling can be improved, but the loss of saturation clearly seen in the long exposure sky (crosstalk effects) is not.

    It is interesting though that the bug caused a green cast, maybe it is because they're trying to do something with the saturation... it shall be interesting to see what the update can do.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by AreBee View Post
    voidshatter,



    I thought that tiling was an adverse effect related only to CCD sensors.
    It's related mostly to Dalsa CCD sensors, Kodak does not have the same issue. But all large(?) sensors have it to some extent. With the CCDs there are two reasons, one during manufacturing when the sensor is exposed in several steps leading to a uniformity variation (tiles is highly visible on Dalsa sensors if you just look at it), and the other is when you have multiple readout channels with ADC that doesn't match up perfectly. I think Dalsa sensor have the most visible tile lines of all when visually inspecting the sensor itself, and there's also been some considerable challenges to match the ADC channels.

    In an extremely processed dark frame I can get one tile line on my 50MP Kodak (which has two readout channels) but I've never had any real world problems.

    With the CMOS there's no problem with ADC channel matching (I think), but there can still be uniformity variation tiles from manufacturing.

    Normally the tiles are 100% neutralized with the LCC shot, but if you have some crosstalk (which you have on the wides, especially when shifted) the tile lines appear with different strength depending on what actual light/color there is at the line which means that the LCC shot cannot cancel it out fully. To remove the tile line you then need to make some filtering after the LCC has been applied, which Capture One does with varying success.

    If you actually get problems with tile lines depends a lot of what post-processing style you have. If you do low contrast stuff you rarely get any issues. If you do black and white high contrast processing you're almost guaranteed to get at least some issues. With the Dalsa CCDs that is... I don't know how many issues there are with the Sonys, I have seen tile lines at least one time but only at crazy crazy extreme processing just to test if I could get a line visible.

    Here's an image showing Dalsa tile lines:
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Here's an image showing Dalsa tile lines:
    I'm surprised that you still kept my image

    I do not see such tiles on the IQ3100 or the IQ250, but I did not have a decent camera to shoot the surface of the IQ3100 when I tested it. I would expect the tiling issues to be far less with the CMOS.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I'm surprised that you still kept my image
    Heh, it turned up as one of the first hits on google image search

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    RawDigger version 1.2.4.437 supports both IQ3 100MPix formats, 14-bit and 16-bit; available from our site at http://www.rawdigger.com/download
    List of supported cameras is available at http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/cameralist
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    RawDigger version 1.2.4.437 supports both IQ3 100MPix formats, 14-bit and 16-bit; available from our site at http://www.rawdigger.com/download
    List of supported cameras is available at http://www.rawdigger.com/usermanual/cameralist
    Thanks for the update! I confirm that RawDigger 1.2.4 now reads the IQ3 100MP IIQ file correctly and is consistent with the DNG files converted by Capture One v9.0.2.

    Unfortunately the IQ250 is still not fully supported (at least not cooked as Capture One). I guess no one cares about that crop sensor

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    > Unfortunately the IQ250 is still not fully supported

    Sorry, but how do you mean it is not fully supported?

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    While I appreciate these test results, is it not fair to say that the results will be rendered mostly invalid after the new patch for C1 is released tomorrow (if delivered as promised)? I.e. the 100 will improve somewhat?
    I was wondering when someone would take note.

    Lot of work here, but I certainly won't be using an old version of C1 Pro to process my IQ3 100MP files.



    Patience.....patience....patience.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    > Unfortunately the IQ250 is still not fully supported

    Sorry, but how do you mean it is not fully supported?
    If I look into the histogram of the deep shadow, I still see lots of gaps for the IQ250. If I convert by Capture One then these gaps get filled somehow. See #8 and #59 of this thread. I don't know what leads to the discrepancy here.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by kdphotography View Post
    to process my IQ3 100MP files.
    Congratulations on your new purchase! I thought you'd keep using your IQ180

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    If I look into the histogram of the deep shadow, I still see lots of gaps for the IQ250. If I convert by Capture One then these gaps get filled somehow. See #8 and #59 of this thread. I don't know what leads to the discrepancy here.
    IQ250 is a 14-bit camera, so the gaps are inevitable. To see those clear, you can switch off "RAW data postprocessing" for PhaseOne in RawDigger Preferences, Vendor Specific tab. For more detailed analysis we need a shot of ColorChecker in both .iiq and .dng formats, it would be great if you can provide those.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    IQ250 is a 14-bit camera, so the gaps are inevitable. To see those clear, you can switch off "RAW data postprocessing" for PhaseOne in RawDigger Preferences, Vendor Specific tab. For more detailed analysis we need a shot of ColorChecker in both .iiq and .dng formats, it would be great if you can provide those.
    I'm uploading the IQ250 DNG files in addition to the IIQ files into this folder here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fgircd45m...pLccyzmfa?dl=0

    Please check back in about 2 hours time

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    I'm uploading the IQ250 DNG files in addition to the IIQ files into this folder here: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fgircd45m...pLccyzmfa?dl=0

    Please check back in about 2 hours time
    From the part that is already uploaded, say 01719 .iiq/.dng pair: was Lens Correction Tool applied to the shot (Lens Correction, Purple Fringing, and/or LCC)?

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    From the part that is already uploaded, say 01719 .iiq/.dng pair: was Lens Correction Tool applied to the shot (Lens Correction, Purple Fringing, and/or LCC)?
    From what I can see there is no LCC applied. No Chromatic aberration removal or lens correction has been applied either.

    I still remember that Adobe Camera Raw and Capture One handles Phase One files differently. Apparently Capture One has all those manufacturer's tweaks under the hood for best results.

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    There are calibration data tags also for the CMOS backs. They're obviously less important to decode and apply than for CCD backs, but they're still there. I don't think all sensor calibration tags for the CMOS backs have been reverse engineered, at least it's not done in DCRaw. This is probably causing the difference for the IQ250 files.

    It's messy to handle the calibration data for us third parties as the MF companies introduce new tags with new formats with new sensors (as new sensors have new needs). I've reverse engineered for some Dalsa sensors for IIQ, and I've done it for some Kodak sensors in the Hasselblad 3FR format. But I haven't done it for CMOS neither 3FR or IIQ, but I know there are tags, just make a exiftool -v listing and you see them.

    As there's virtually noone using open source software or independent third parties when it comes to $40k backs there's a lot of work for little reward doing this. The reason I did it for the Kodaks was that I needed it myself for my own H4D-50 back, and for the Dalsa I thought about getting such a back and needed proper support for it, but in the end I didn't get one. Another reason that it's not that rewarding is that the files usually look perfectly okay without calibration data applied, the calibration data just adds a tiny bit extra quality on top. For the Dalsas it was very important though as tiling usually was quite visible if the calibration data was not applied. For the CMOS there's no obvious reason to apply the calibration data, at least for us that shoot an LCC for each shot, but I don't know for sure as I don't know what's in all those tags.

    In any case it's most likely that the CMOS tags are quite simple though as the calibration need is much smaller for CMOS than a CCD with external ADC.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    There are calibration data tags also for the CMOS backs. They're obviously less important to decode and apply than for CCD backs, but they're still there. I don't think all sensor calibration tags for the CMOS backs have been reverse engineered, at least it's not done in DCRaw. This is probably causing the difference for the IQ250 files.

    It's messy to handle the calibration data for us third parties as the MF companies introduce new tags with new formats with new sensors (as new sensors have new needs). I've reverse engineered for some Dalsa sensors for IIQ, and I've done it for some Kodak sensors in the Hasselblad 3FR format. But I haven't done it for CMOS neither 3FR or IIQ, but I know there are tags, just make a exiftool -v listing and you see them.

    As there's virtually noone using open source software or independent third parties when it comes to $40k backs there's a lot of work for little reward doing this. The reason I did it for the Kodaks was that I needed it myself for my own H4D-50 back, and for the Dalsa I thought about getting such a back and needed proper support for it, but in the end I didn't get one. Another reason that it's not that rewarding is that the files usually look perfectly okay without calibration data applied, the calibration data just adds a tiny bit extra quality on top. For the Dalsas it was very important though as tiling usually was quite visible if the calibration data was not applied. For the CMOS there's no obvious reason to apply the calibration data, at least for us that shoot an LCC for each shot, but I don't know for sure as I don't know what's in all those tags.

    It's most likely that the CMOS tags are quite simple though as the calibration need is much smaller for CMOS than a CCD with external ADC.
    Yes see my post above - how Capture One calibrates the IQ250 when compared against ACR (presumably) without calibration.

    Sometimes if you decode the IIQ of the IQ250 or Credo 50 by Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom directly, shadow SNR gets beaten by the Nikon D810. In this regard, the Canikon solutions are less dependent on the RAW decoding software.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    > From what I can see there is no LCC applied. No Chromatic aberration removal or lens correction has been applied either.

    Thank you. RawDigger displays raw data and statistics; DNG is pre-processed (for example, the black level is subtracted, and in non-uniform manner), and that is normal for raw conversion. But RawDigger is not a raw converter, it is more or less a tool to discover the true nature of the raw data, and the tweaks and "cheats" added by different raw converters. If one wants to see the raw starting point to evaluate the sensor and lens performance, that's what RawDigger is for.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Yes see my post above - how Capture One calibrates the IQ250 when compared against ACR (presumably) without calibration.

    Sometimes if you decode the IIQ of the IQ250 or Credo 50 by Adobe Camera Raw / Lightroom directly, shadow SNR gets beaten by the Nikon D810. In this regard, the Canikon solutions are less dependent on the RAW decoding software.
    Adobe probably gets tag documentation from Phase One, and I know they get it from Hasselblad (I've asked).

    I know Adobe's DNG converter applies calibration data to Dalsa IIQs (so the DNG you get is "cooked"), but even then it was not exactly as Capture One. Some calibration data tags are things like polynomial curve handles so it can vary a few sample values depending on implementation. And at the time Capture One actually had a bug in their flat field calibration data application, so Adobe did it better at that particular point in time

    With the IQ250 perhaps Adobe thought that calibration data made so little difference that it was not worth the effort implementing it even if they had documentation.

    It should also be said that Capture One can in some cases make post-processing of the file, additional cooking, to improve quality. Removal of tile lines and micro lens ripple is one such post-processing thing that is not related to any calibration data. It's not unlikely they make additional minor tweaks, and indeed this is one thing Doug loves to speak about -- the advantage to be both manufacturer of camera hardware and raw converter in one. Using third party software you can miss out on some of the minor tweaks.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Iliah Borg View Post
    > From what I can see there is no LCC applied. No Chromatic aberration removal or lens correction has been applied either.

    Thank you. RawDigger displays raw data and statistics; DNG is pre-processed (for example, the black level is subtracted, and in non-uniform manner), and that is normal for raw conversion. But RawDigger is not a raw converter, it is more or less a tool to discover the true nature of the raw data, and the tweaks and "cheats" added by different raw converters. If one wants to see the raw starting point to evaluate the sensor and lens performance, that's what RawDigger is for.
    Or to be more precisely, to evaluate the starting point of the sensor and lens performance out of the camera, after the tweaks and "cheats" added by the camera's chip and firmware before it writes the RAW file into the memory card.

    Which one could be better for tweaking and "cheating"? In-camera chip + firmware, or a sophisticated software like Capture One? I would imagine the latter in most cases.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Calibration data usually fixes linearity, flat field (uniformity variations), tiling, mapping out dead (or half-dead) pixels. So if you evaluate those things your decoder must apply it of course. On the Hassy Kodak I looked at there was a strange type of calibration that moved some pixel data from the neighboring pixel, but it really was required to make the demosaicer work optimally (I guess it was some sort of readout crosstalk compensation). There's also tags like sensor temperature and such and I imagine that Capture One could be steering some pre-step noise reduction parameters based on those values.

    So while evaluating raw data is valuable, one also needs to check the end result in the native raw converter too as software conversion is very much a part of the final image quality. Anyone who's used Capture One over a longer period of time knows that it happens now and then that they adjust tweaks, sometimes introducing bugs (like the LCC bug now).

    Regarding tweaks I think the noise reduction part (the one that is always applied and can't be turned off) is probably what you gain most in using the native software, and indeed fine-tuned noise reduction has kept the "usable DR" of the medium format backs at a higher level than the sensors should actually be capable of. With third party software you can do good noise reduction too, but you generally need to tweak it manually and it's not always possible to make as fine tweaks as the native raw converts do. Noise reduction is not part of the calibration data, but some of the tags can be used as parameters into the noise reduction algorithm.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Hi Void,

    To my eyes the IQ3 100MP is quiet a bite more noisy than the IQ250. My eyes wrong? I have seen it Doug's round tower shot too.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Now, the show time of the Sony CMOS sensor - dynamic range under long exposure!

    First of all, it was lucky that I bracketed a bit for the long exposure shots so I have had just the right parameters for analysis!

    Indeed, when Phase One wraps up the ISO settings (along with the dedicated long exposure mode for the IQ380 and IQ260) things can get very confusing - what is the real native ISO?

    Instead of starting another long debate here, I employ a simpler method to try to minimize dispute:

    I shoot each back at the lowest possible ISO (where for the IQ380 it is ISO 200 in the dedicated long exposure mode). I use the Lee Big Stopper. I shoot at the same aperture.

    What I have found is that regardless of the difference of ISO among these three backs, indeed the same exposure time gave me about the same highlight headroom! See proof below: I converted all RAW files by Capture One v9.0.2 then checked the mean value of the fixed sky region. These are about the same.

    Then I used the following settings for each image: I match the exposure of each image, then use the "Pick white balance tool" on the same spot, then push +100 shadow and pull +100 highlight, then disable noise reduction.

    Note that for these two CMOS backs when I took the long exposure shot I disabled darkframe noise reduction by setting "Camera Mode" to "Aerial". This is indeed a key feature for landscape photography so to avoid waiting for the noise reduction countdown! Then for these three backs I moved the slider of "Single Pixel" to 1 (out of 100).

    Now we look into the shadow: boom! You know what I'm talking about and why I am a fan of the Sony CMOS sensor! It is really the king in this kind of shootings! This is what I am willing to sacrifice other things for.

    Attachment 115578

    Attachment 115579

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Round tower shots iso 1600 n 3200 is nosier than pentax iso 16000 if i recall...

    If this new back only usable in iso 800 people will not upgrade from IQ180...

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Santoso View Post
    Round tower shots iso 1600 n 3200 is nosier than pentax iso 16000 if i recall...

    If this new back only usable in iso 800 people will not upgrade from IQ180...
    Has high ISO become important for MFD users that quickly? You could always have an IQ250 laying around for those low light action shots

    Maybe those 15 bits of base ISO DR couldn't be combined with great high ISO performance? It would be interesting if they've made a deliberate trade-off.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Hi,

    High DR is essentially also good high ISO capability.

    Increasing ISO is simply underexposure, with noisy readout it can be helpful to increase analogue gain and that can be helpful for high ISO.

    Best regards
    Erik
    Quote Originally Posted by torger View Post
    Has high ISO become important for MFD users that quickly? You could always have an IQ250 laying around for those low light action shots

    Maybe those 15 bits of base ISO DR couldn't be combined with great high ISO performance? It would be interesting if they've made a deliberate trade-off.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    I just made a quick visual inspection iso3200 compared to A7r2 on a per pixel basis. I couldn't see that IQ3100 was any worse, if anything it seemed a little cleaner. This in RawTherapee with no noise reduction tricks activated.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    If you don't shift that much then it's hardly visible on the CMOS sensors. For my real world usage I have only encountered this once and that was when I was too greedy to shift it to the extreme.

    On the other hand, it is very easy to see that on the CCD sensors even unshifted, and that could be 3 vertical lines in addition. The 8 partitions are clearly visible on a fullframe CCD sensor by eye, but when you stare at the IQ3 100MP surface it looks like a whole (without any partitions at all).

    IQ260+23HR unshifted:

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    IQ260+40HR unshifted but at ISO 200:

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    Have enjoyed this discussion and the technical education it provides (academic to me as I don't own a digital back, at least not yet). In this regard, I do have questions about the (lovely) long-exposure image of London. Are the tiling lines, which are clearly visible, shown to illustrate what the file looks like before they are removed in post, or are they not removable? If the latter, I'd be surprised as long-exposure is a feature of the IQ260, as I understand it, and it would seem to be asking a lot for a photographer to spend $40,000 on a piece of equipment so handicapped. Do these lines appear only in long exposure, or on shifting too? And, yes, I do understand that such lines may not be visible unless there is a uniform background or foreground such as sky or water, but as the London image shows, it is often desirable to have such backgrounds or foregrounds.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    How is it compare to Pentax ISO 3200? Same Sony Sensor.....

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobalobo View Post
    it would seem to be asking a lot for a photographer to spend $40,000 on a piece of equipment so handicapped...
    Well, the thing is, if you only saw and read what the handful (but the most vocal and prolific) posters on this forum (and the other one) post about the Phase backs you would think they are junk. They work hard at creating and looking for the very worst of these backs, the limits or failure points. Imagine if this were an airplane forum, you would never get on a plane ever again...Ever.

    Even the older backs can be used to make amazing images.

    Even Yunli (voidshatter) has created some stunning images made using the purportedly "useless" IQ260.

    The fact is cameras and backs are tools to make photographs. They ALL have limits. Cool to see people finding those limits (which in most cases nowadays are VERY extreme!) but they do not exemplify the complete user experience.
    Last edited by Ken_R; 9th January 2016 at 07:22.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobalobo View Post
    Are the tiling lines, which are clearly visible, shown to illustrate what the file looks like before they are removed in post, or are they not removable?
    This occurs at either extremes of processing, where you are pushing all kinds of sliders to their max/min, and/or extremes of shift. You typically do not get them, and when you do, LCC does clean it up.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Lobalobo View Post
    Have enjoyed this discussion and the technical education it provides (academic to me as I don't own a digital back, at least not yet). In this regard, I do have questions about the (lovely) long-exposure image of London. Are the tiling lines, which are clearly visible, shown to illustrate what the file looks like before they are removed in post, or are they not removable? If the latter, I'd be surprised as long-exposure is a feature of the IQ260, as I understand it, and it would seem to be asking a lot for a photographer to spend $40,000 on a piece of equipment so handicapped. Do these lines appear only in long exposure, or on shifting too? And, yes, I do understand that such lines may not be visible unless there is a uniform background or foreground such as sky or water, but as the London image shows, it is often desirable to have such backgrounds or foregrounds.
    Hi, the tiling issue is a known issue for the fullframe Dalsa CCD backs (80MP and 60MP). With some search by Google within seconds you could easily find examples:

    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...-shifting.html
    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...sue-iq180.html
    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...strations.html
    IQ160: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...move-post.html
    IQ160: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ing-issue.html

    If we take the official sample image of the IQ260 (shot by Antony Spencer as advertisement for the IQ260) as an example we can see the below:

    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	42.jpg 
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ID:	115669

    I have not bothered to investigated the conditions of occurrences. I only know that for the fullframe CCD sensors it's likely to happen for uniform/simple contents and is more likely to happen when a technical camera lens is shifted to the extreme.

    Sometimes an LCC correction can fix it. Sometimes content-aware healing tool in Photoshop can fix it. Sometimes it's just annoying and it's difficult to fix it. I gave up and moved to a CMOS sensor.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi, the tiling issue is a known issue for the fullframe Dalsa CCD backs (80MP and 60MP). With some search by Google within seconds you could easily find examples:

    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...-shifting.html
    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...sue-iq180.html
    IQ180: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...strations.html
    IQ160: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...move-post.html
    IQ160: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ing-issue.html

    If we take the official sample image of the IQ260 (shot by Antony Spencer as advertisement for the IQ260) as an example we can see the below:

    Attachment 115668

    I have not bothered to investigated the conditions of occurrences. I only know that for the fullframe CCD sensors it's likely to happen for uniform/simple contents and is more likely to happen when a technical camera lens is shifted to the extreme.

    Sometimes an LCC correction can fix it. Sometimes content-aware healing tool in Photoshop can fix it. Sometimes it's just annoying and it's difficult to fix it. I gave up and moved to a CMOS sensor.
    A good example of processing on the fringe to bring out tiling, not unlike the 23HR image above!

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    A good example of processing on the fringe to bring out tiling, not unlike the 23HR image above!
    Hi, allow me to steal your IQ180 image and attempt to ruin it by the noob filters in Color Efex Pro:

    Attachment 115670

    It's a nice image btw. I just wanted to demonstrate the tiling issue. I know you would never ruin an image like this, and perhaps you have ways to work around it. (If you dislike this I will remove this post.)

    Okey, I have removed it and you have my apologies.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi, allow me to steal your IQ180 image and attempt to ruin it by the noob filters in Color Efex Pro:

    Attachment 115670

    It's a nice image btw. I just wanted to demonstrate the tiling issue. I know you would never ruin an image like this, and perhaps you have ways to work around it. (If you dislike this I will remove this post.)
    Can you please do this with your own images, this is actually quite rude.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by jagsiva View Post
    Can you please do this with your own images, this is actually quite rude.
    Okey, I have removed it and you have my apologies.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Okey, I have removed it and you have my apologies.
    Thank you, Jag.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi, allow me to steal your IQ180 image and attempt to ruin it by the noob filters in Color Efex Pro:

    Attachment 115670

    It's a nice image btw. I just wanted to demonstrate the tiling issue. I know you would never ruin an image like this, and perhaps you have ways to work around it. (If you dislike this I will remove this post.)

    Okey, I have removed it and you have my apologies.
    Not only rude, unethical and also illegal as it violates copyright. Once again any good work that you may have done in the past is invalidated due to the theft.
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    OK Lets make something completely clear.
    Images are owned by their creators unless made under a contract that says something different.
    We assume though that folks that post images own them and thus control their usage.
    We encourage the posting of images, after all it is not all about gear but about the images we make with it. Some images are intended as art, some to illustrate some aspect of gear, processing or technique.
    It is perfectly fine to ask to use an image for a test or some other purpose such as variations on processing, but the key point here is that you MUST ask and get permission and furthermore your request MUST say what you intend to do with them.

    Any questions?
    Good, now carry on.
    -bob
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Yunli are you ever happy or satisfied with anything?

    I will something Doug posted in one of the threads you linked to:

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Normal photographic work includes pretty strong adjustments (that's the whole point of a DB, they hold up under strong styling and adjustment). I do not mean "I'll adjust it until I see it" kinds of adjustment; the reason being ALL cameras will show terrible things if you look hard enough. For instance: take a 5D mark 2 file, shoot an LCC at low ISO, apply the LCC to itself (to even out any variation in color and brightness) and then auto-adjust the exposure (effectively stretching the histogram way out). You'll see some really awful things. Then breath, reset the adjustments and try to look for those issues in a normal file with normal adjustments - you won't see them.
    Some of Wayne's issues with his particular IQ180 were mainly due to his back requiring calibration which was easily solved. Other's were fixed or greatly reduced with proper workflow.

    Yunli, please consider the effect your posts have on people before posting. Put them in context since obviously not everyone can read between the lines and not everyone can put the comments in perspective or in balance with other aspects of the gear in question. You isolate a problem and pound on it. Relentlessly.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    OK Lets make something completely clear.
    Images are owned by their creators unless made under a contract that says something different.
    We assume though that folks that post images own them and thus control their usage.
    We encourage the posting of images, after all it is not all about gear but about the images we make with it. Some images are intended as art, some to illustrate some aspect of gear, processing or technique.
    It is perfectly fine to ask to use an image for a test or some other purpose such as variations on processing, but the key point here is that you MUST ask and get permission and furthermore your request MUST say what you intend to do with them.

    Any questions?
    Good, now carry on.
    -bob
    In total agreement Bob. The ownership of any image belongs to the photographer. Just because I share an image here or anywhere else do not mean I give carte blanche to it's usage or sharing. Simple, ask first and wait for the response before proceeding.

    Yes, I'm being grouchy however this is how I make my living.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    I found this blog interview on copyright and creative commons laws to be educational.
    IQ3 100 • Cambo 1600 • Rodenstock 23,32,50,90 • Zeiss 350SA
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi, allow me to steal your IQ180 image and attempt to ruin it by the noob filters in Color Efex Pro:

    Attachment 115670

    It's a nice image btw. I just wanted to demonstrate the tiling issue. I know you would never ruin an image like this, and perhaps you have ways to work around it. (If you dislike this I will remove this post.)
    Apologies but in this particular case, I don't get the strong reactions. To me, but I'm not a native speaker and I may be used to a different concept of copyright and authorship, this is quite a polite posting - and showing what can happen in certain situations and with a particular kind of processing is helpful: it's a bit of information quite a few people don't come across. I view this as a constructive contribution.

    Chris
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Chris,

    I don't know whether there was a copyright violation or not, but don't you see how the "author" of the photo might object to someone appropriating and manipulating it?

    Steve

    Appropriate: to take something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    Chris,

    I don't know whether there was a copyright violation or not, but don't you see how the "author" of the photo might object to someone appropriating and manipulating it?

    Appropriate: to take something for one's own use, typically without the owner's permission.
    Steve,

    Sure, I see that the author of the image might object (and, in fact, he did) but in this context I can't see that the usage was harmful: it was an attempt to show a certain technical problem in the context of a technical discussion to the readers of this section of getDPI. If this would have been my image, I wouldn't have objected.

    But I don't think we should discuss this in more detail, I don't want to derail this threat.

    Chris
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Well, the thing is, if you only saw and read what the handful (but the most vocal and prolific) posters on this forum (and the other one) post about the Phase backs you would think they are junk. They work hard at creating and looking for the very worst of these backs, the limits or failure points. Imagine if this were an airplane forum, you would never get on a plane ever again...Ever.

    Even the older backs can be used to make amazing images.

    Even Yunli (voidshatter) has created some stunning images made using the purportedly "useless" IQ260.

    The fact is cameras and backs are tools to make photographs. They ALL have limits. Cool to see people finding those limits (which in most cases nowadays are VERY extreme!) but they do not exemplify the complete user experience.
    Got it. Thanks to you (and all) for responding. Truly interesting.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    Even Yunli (voidshatter) has created some stunning images made using the purportedly "useless" IQ260.
    Just took a look at Yunli's site, and no kidding there are some brilliant images, including those taken with an IQ260, and even including taken with an IQ260 with long exposure and sky, and no visible lines.

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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Okey, I have removed it and you have my apologies.
    Yunli, thanks for all your hard work on this - it is most enlightening. Despite the odd turn of this topic, I want you to know that I, and doubtless many others, appreciate your efforts, and public release of all your work and discoveries.

    I remember going from P65+ to IQ180, and being confounded by the changes, like stronger lens cast, inability to use Schneider wide angles, worse battery life, etc. Now here we are, and many of us wonder if it's wise to leave our venerable IQ180's for the IQ3-100. Your information is invaluable in the light of this expensive upgrade question.

    Thank You!
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    Re: IQ3 100MP technical camera tests: color cast, mazing artifact, tiling issue, DR e

    Quote Originally Posted by Don Libby View Post
    In total agreement Bob. The ownership of any image belongs to the photographer. Just because I share an image here or anywhere else do not mean I give carte blanche to it's usage or sharing. Simple, ask first and wait for the response before proceeding.

    Yes, I'm being grouchy however this is how I make my living.

    Don
    I merely attempted to grab the first test shot posted in this thread http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...-shifting.html and applied a filter to demonstrate how obvious the tiling issue is for the IQ180 (In a nice way of asking I think, then removed it).

    Sorry that it affects your living.

    PS: I thought this how it works at getdpi when you grab someone else's test shot and ask during discussion: http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...tml#post621417.
    Last edited by voidshatter; 9th January 2016 at 20:15.

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