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Thread: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

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    The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    We are most of the way through putting together a rather large set of tests. Most of the below have already been or will be done for most of the below cameras (though not every test for every camera; there is only so much time in the day!)

    Tests
    - Aperture Sweep
    - ISO Sweep (normal contrast scene)
    - ISO Sweep (high contrast scene)
    - Long Exposure Test
    - Over/Under Exposure Test

    Cameras
    - Phase One IQ3 100mp
    - Phase One IQ3 80mp
    - Phase One IQ3 60mp
    - Phase One IQ3 50mp
    - Credo 50mp
    - Credo 40mp
    - Sony A7 II
    - Pentax 645Z
    - Canon 5Ds R


    [Italics indicate the tests we have not yet completed, but should in the next week]

    All raw files (around 20gb) available for free from our website.

    Big Raw File Test with Phase One IQ3, Leaf Credo, Canon/Sony/Pentax
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Thank you very much for spending your time and effort to make these tests!

    I just have some ideas as one who enjoys testing just like women enjoy shopping (which you could ignore as pointless nagging):

    a) I would not include the Credo 50 as it is redundant as the IQ3 50MP.
    b) I would replace the A7 II with A7R II, or simply forget about it.
    c) I would try to get a Leica S 007.

    Again, I think this time you are doing a very good job and we are looking forward to it!

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Thank you very much for spending your time and effort to make these tests!

    I just have some ideas as one who enjoys testing just like women enjoy shopping (which you could ignore as pointless nagging):

    a) I would not include the Credo 50 as it is redundant as the IQ3 50MP.
    b) I would replace the A7 II with A7R II, or simply forget about it.
    c) I would try to get a Leica S 007.

    Again, I think this time you are doing a very good job and we are looking forward to it!
    - Credo included for those that want to analyze color differences. Resolution/sharpness/detail/noise will all be effectively identical to the IQ3 50mp.
    - We have the Sony for video and BTS stuff, so we included it since we didn't have to rent it to have it for the test. I agree a A7RII would be a good inclusion (I can also think of a dozen or more other cameras I'd love to include, but time and rental budget is not infinite )
    - If anyone has a Leica S 007 in NYC and would like to bring it this week we'd be glad to include it.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    - I agree a A7RII would be a good inclusion (I can also think of a dozen or more other cameras I'd love to include, but time and rental budget is not infinite )
    I would have thought the inclusion of the A7RII is essential. It is a class defining camera that uses very similar sensor technology as used in the new Phase One IQ3 100mp. I think its good enough to replace most digital MF, but is that a step too far? These very useful tests might determine that question. Also, no Hasselblad?
    Quentin Bargate
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    We have the Sony for video and BTS stuff, so we included it since we didn't have to rent it to have it for the test. I agree a A7RII would be a good inclusion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I would have thought the inclusion of the A7RII is essential. It is a class defining camera that uses very similar sensor technology as used in the new Phase One IQ3 100mp. I think its good enough to replace most digital MF, but is that a step too far? These very useful tests might determine that question. Also, no Hasselblad?
    Doug, I'd support Quentin's recommendation on the a7RII. I currently use the a7RII and the Pentax 645Z. I have been an owner of the IQ180/DF, H4D50 and Leica S Type 006. The a7RII is a true ground breaker and would be conspicuous by its absence in your testing. Just my two cents.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Doug, I'd support Quentin's recommendation on the a7RII. I currently use the a7RII and the Pentax 645Z. I have been an owner of the IQ180/DF, H4D50 and Leica S Type 006. The a7RII is a true ground breaker and would be conspicuous by its absence in your testing. Just my two cents.

    Joe
    I agree as well, Doug. Many potential buyers of a 100MP CMOS back already own a Sony A7RII and are thinking about what the 100MP solution delivers that the A7RII does not.
    Thanks.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I agree as well, Doug. Many potential buyers of a 100MP CMOS back already own a Sony A7RII and are thinking about what the 100MP solution delivers that the A7RII does not.
    Thanks.
    I think the A7RII would make a fine addition. We do not own one and I've already spent my budget on camera rentals getting the Pentax and Canon. But if anyone in NYC has an A7RII and would like to donate it for the test we'd be glad to provide you a free Phase One rental (and our gratitude) as payment to use it on Friday or this weekend.

    If anyone would like to capture the scene with any other camera we'll have it set up until around Monday (though the fruit may go a bit sour!). Please contact us to arrange a time slot for you to have uninterrupted access to shoot it.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    But if anyone in NYC has an A7RII and would like to donate it for the test we'd be glad to provide you a free Phase One rental (and our gratitude) as payment to use it on Friday or this weekend.
    Wish I were closer. I'd gladly do that.

    Joe
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Colson View Post
    Wish I were closer. I'd gladly do that.

    Joe

    I agree, the A7RII is truly ground breaking. It is giving my Pentax a run for the money.

    Doug, I have an A7RII and my daughter is literally a block away from you. The only problem is time. I can drop it off at your place along with a bunch of lenses for both the Sony and the Pentax if you like. I don't need a loaner or free rental in return.

    I can't imagine any other dealer doing this for the good of the community. My sincere appreciation to you for setting it up. It means you really believe in what you sell. That is huge for any company. Phase is very fortunate to have you guys batting for them.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I agree, the A7RII is truly ground breaking. It is giving my Pentax a run for the money.

    Doug, I have an A7RII and my daughter is literally a block away from you. The only problem is time. I can drop it off at your place along with a bunch of lenses for both the Sony and the Pentax if you like. I don't need a loaner or free rental in return.

    I can't imagine any other dealer doing this for the good of the community. My sincere appreciation to you for setting it up. It means you really believe in what you sell. That is huge for any company. Phase is very fortunate to have you guys batting for them.
    PM'd.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    If Pradeep and Doug can get it together to include the A7RII then I'll happily personally buy both of them an adult beverage of their choice!!

    Thanks all.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    PM'd.
    I think we're good to go tomorrow Doug, see my reply.

    This will be very interesting.

    Hey Graham, you're on
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I think we're good to go tomorrow Doug, see my reply.

    This will be very interesting.

    Hey Graham, you're on
    Thanks for supplying the A7RII. What lens are you sending with it?

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    If you shot the same rodies on a cambo Actus with A7RII the fight might be fairer.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I would have thought the Nikon D810 to be an essential test camera here. It's pretty much the bread and butter camera for a good many people now, probably more so that the Sony.

    I also wonder how the newer IQ3 series backs compare to the older IQ1 / Credo backs, particularly the 60mpx versions, seeing as the electronics were changed in the IQ2 to allow for LE mode.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Thanks for supplying the A7RII. What lens are you sending with it?
    Doug has asked for just the 55 1.8, but I am including the Batis 25 f2 with it, hope he will test both.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    I would have thought the Nikon D810 to be an essential test camera here. It's pretty much the bread and butter camera for a good many people now, probably more so that the Sony.

    I also wonder how the newer IQ3 series backs compare to the older IQ1 / Credo backs, particularly the 60mpx versions, seeing as the electronics were changed in the IQ2 to allow for LE mode.
    I think it is not so much about testing popular cameras as it is about testing similar sensors. The 810 is 36MP for sure, but I guess he has to draw the line somewhere.

    Thus, the Sony A7RII is 42MPx, and a sensor that is probably close if not similar to the new one in the IQ3 100. The Pentax 645 and the Canon 5DSR are 50Mpx sensors although completely different from each other in design. The Pentax is probably very close to the IQ3 50mp back.

    In the end, it is probably foolhardy to test a newer product against an older one from the same company. If the differences are minimal it would be hard to sell the newer product. OTOH, it may be even harder to justify a very expensive product if a cheaper one is very similar.

    So it is a great thought on the part of Doug to be doing this in the first place. I for one am very interested to see the results, even if it is only out of intellectual curiosity.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    I think it is not so much about testing popular cameras as it is about testing similar sensors. The 810 is 36MP for sure, but I guess he has to draw the line somewhere.

    Thus, the Sony A7RII is 42MPx, and a sensor that is probably close if not similar to the new one in the IQ3 100. The Pentax 645 and the Canon 5DSR are 50Mpx sensors although completely different from each other in design. The Pentax is probably very close to the IQ3 50mp back.

    In the end, it is probably foolhardy to test a newer product against an older one from the same company. If the differences are minimal it would be hard to sell the newer product. OTOH, it may be even harder to justify a very expensive product if a cheaper one is very similar.

    So it is a great thought on the part of Doug to be doing this in the first place. I for one am very interested to see the results, even if it is only out of intellectual curiosity.
    I look forward to the test results and appreciate Doug's efforts, but if the Phase backs are being tested with a tech camera and tech camera lenses, the playing field is quite tilted against the non-Phase cameras. Most users of these systems do NOT use tech cameras.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    I look forward to the test results and appreciate Doug's efforts, but if the Phase backs are being tested with a tech camera and tech camera lenses, the playing field is quite tilted against the non-Phase cameras. Most users of these systems do NOT use tech cameras.
    I think we’ve already seen enough tests on tech cameras, I assumed they were shooting the backs on the XF.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Is there any particular reason why the D810 is not a part of this? It must be the most used high megapixel 35mm DSLR the last couple of years, and is a camera that is relevant to tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of photographers. While it uses a Sony sensor, Nikon seems to get very different results from that sensor than Sony did.
    Last edited by Jorgen Udvang; 15th January 2016 at 00:36.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Jorgen Udvang View Post
    Is there any particular reason why the D810 is not a part of this? It must be the most used high megapixel 35mm DSLR the last couple of years, and is a camera that is relevant to tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of photographers. While it uses a Sony sensor, Nikon seems to get very different results from that sensor than Sony did.
    While the D810 is no doubt a much loved camera, I don't see the point in including every camera. While it's true that Nikon and Sony get different results from the same sensors, the diferrences are more night and later that night. If you see the a7rII compared to the IQ3 100, it's not that hard to imagine how the D810 will fit in.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    While the D810 is no doubt a much loved camera, I don't see the point in including every camera. While it's true that Nikon and Sony get different results from the same sensors, the diferrences are more night and later that night. If you see the a7rII compared to the IQ3 100, it's not that hard to imagine how the D810 will fit in.
    ... except that the A7R-II has poor dynamic range for long exposure: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3890417

    But I agree that the D810 should perform similarly as the A7R-II generally.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Interesting stuff. The A7rii should really be there, the D810 though, the res is a bit low for this test I reckon.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    If you shot the same rodies on a cambo Actus with A7RII the fight might be fairer.
    I suspect that the sony sensor will hold up exceptionally well under these conditions, and really show its true potential.

    After all, the sensor is only limited by the ability of the optics used on it.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Shame no one makes a M645 to Pentax 645 adapter (that I know of). A lens like the manual focus Mamiya 120/4 Macro on all bodies would be interesting... Also remove the glass from the equation (and following debate).

    A strength (and a huge variable in such tests) of a camera like the Sony is the degree to which you can change the rendering SOOC given the sheer mix and volume of glass you can put on it from damn near anyone. Something possible, but to a much more limited degree, with Canon and Nikon. The sheer resolving power differences due to MP count are a given, the rest of the test results will be interesting to see.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I think shooting all cameras with lenses that are likely to be used with them is the best option for a test like this. It is fairly uncommon to shoot 35mm with a Rodenstock HR lens, or any 645 lens for that matter, unless it is a cheaper alternative to a 35mm lens. Plus you run into all kinds of trouble with lenses not designed for specific sensors. Not too mention that you would get a different FOV with every camera.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Have to decide what your really testing for here , if it is a sensor test than using the same lens is the way to go. That cuts out that variable and there are a bunch here right out of the gate. Need to eliminate as many variables as possible. Now Given some of these sensors like the A7rII and the Phase back are coming pretty much from the same technology we are not going to see big DR differences or ISO differences. Obviously resolution will be greater in the Phase back. The hard part and I test a lot of gear is finding the correct default for each camera with sharpness , detail , clarity , noise all at there peak. Even though the defaults in C1 are very good there not always at the optimum level of extracting the most off the sensor. Frankly this is a tough test in many ways. Outside the detail area I think the most telling part of a test like this is the tonal range and separation of tones. Lets be real here they are all very good in many ways but to separate MF from 35mm you need to find those delicate difference that make MF what it is. I have been down this road with 5 backs myself and this is the area that with a good eye you can pick up those differences. Obviously the 100mpx back will blow everyones doors off with the ability for very large printing. The technology now with these CMOS sensors is MF has added a ton of new functionality so a lot of that well it can't do this or that is gone now. The field has leveled a lot on functions like live view for example so its really nice to see this in MF now. Now you have to remember spending 50 k is not a everyday shopping spree , you pretty much have to have that need and for a lot of folks in the scientific, museum , medical, aerial arenas the need is greatly there to gain as much detail as possible. This will do that but for working Pros the need will be less with exceptions of course. But its here now if you need it or you want to be a big gun and have one. I certainly would like to play with it. LOL

    Whats funny is today is the 15th the middle of the month and I'm paying those monthly bills right now but just imagine cutting a 50k check for this it would be fun but than on the other hand i would be carted off to jail for writing a bad check. Now that would not be fun. LOL
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    ................
    Whats funny is today is the 15th the middle of the month and I'm paying those monthly bills right now but just imagine cutting a 50k check for this it would be fun but than on the other hand i would be carted off to jail for writing a bad check. Now that would not be fun. LOL
    No, it wouldn't be fun at all Guy

    Agree with you though, this is a difficult test. However, it would be the first I am aware of where the same subject has been photographed with different systems for all to evaluate.

    Clearly the MF will score high on resolution and the benefits thereof. But the interesting part, for me certainly, would be by how much? What is the difference in real world usage between a 100MP MF back and a 42MP 35mm back.

    Mind you, I am not talking about value for money or costs at all. If money were no object would one still go out and buy the MF back? Because then you also have to consider all the accouterments that need to go with it. So as much as it is about getting the best image it is also about the hoops and loops one needs to go through to get there.

    I can see this thread will be a long one.....

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    Administrator, Instructor Guy Mancuso's Avatar
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Its not as great as one would think. Need to remember as well that you don't compare images in the real world . You shoot, you process and evaluate that single image not against anything else. Thats the real reality, is the MF overall better well sure it is going to be we all know that and why we buy them. But its not as great as some would think. I have done this test, never posted it but I certainly evaluated the differences and they are there but you better have a damn good eye to see it. Obviously detail is the huge plus for this back. so if you need it get in line to buy one. Im very neutral on all this , yea I have the Sony as my bulldog in the mix but thats what I need and happy as a can be with it. The cards just won't let me get back in MF but I did love it and it was fun. I am still a big cheerleader for MF and glad to see the progress but more important IT AIN"T DEAD. LOL
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Pradeep View Post
    No, it wouldn't be fun at all Guy

    Agree with you though, this is a difficult test. However, it would be the first I am aware of where the same subject has been photographed with different systems for all to evaluate.

    Clearly the MF will score high on resolution and the benefits thereof. But the interesting part, for me certainly, would be by how much? What is the difference in real world usage between a 100MP MF back and a 42MP 35mm back.

    Mind you, I am not talking about value for money or costs at all. If money were no object would one still go out and buy the MF back? Because then you also have to consider all the accouterments that need to go with it. So as much as it is about getting the best image it is also about the hoops and loops one needs to go through to get there.

    I can see this thread will be a long one.....

    Im not so sure it will be a great one though as people tend to rip everything apart, stretch it out to make there points but in all cases forget about the real world. Ill never push a image 5 stops and if I do i best be looking for a new career because i would consider myself a piece of crap for getting myself in that situation. Thats just one scenario and there are tons to argue about. LOL
    Photography is all about experimentation and without it you will never learn art.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    There have been several tests of film vs digital, like this one from on landscape: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2014/1...vs-6x7-velvia/
    which includes an IQ180 and the 36MP Sony sensor vs different film sizes and types.
    8x10 is ofcourse still the highest resolution by quite a margin, even without the 'for the buck' part and that will stay that way. I hope some light will be shed by this test on how easy it is to get a workable file with good color from the various digital systems. Interpretation of the results can't be done by anyone else but the user based on their own requirements and he or she will want to have different variables tested which makes this an impossibly difficult test to conduct for a third party.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Its not as great as one would think. Need to remember as well that you don't compare images in the real world . You shoot, you process and evaluate that single image not against anything else. Thats the real reality, is the MF overall better well sure it is going to be we all know that and why we buy them. But its not as great as some would think. I have done this test, never posted it but I certainly evaluated the differences and they are there but you better have a damn good eye to see it. Obviously detail is the huge plus for this back. so if you need it get in line to buy one. Im very neutral on all this , yea I have the Sony as my bulldog in the mix but thats what I need and happy as a can be with it. The cards just won't let me get back in MF but I did love it and it was fun. I am still a big cheerleader for MF and glad to see the progress but more important IT AIN"T DEAD. LOL
    Guy, I love my Sony too, realizing I have not touched my Canon in over six months since there was no wildlife to shoot.

    What Phase has done with this new release is rejuvenated the MF market and rekindled the race for bigger and better sensors. The gauntlet has been thrown down. It will force Leica, Hassy, Pentax and maybe even Sony to get their act together and come up with their answer. It is getting better for the photographer in the end, since all this technology is bound to trickle down to a lower price-point eventually.

    It is incredible what you can get for your money these days.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    There have been several tests of film vs digital, like this one from on landscape: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2014/1...vs-6x7-velvia/
    which includes an IQ180 and the 36MP Sony sensor vs different film sizes and types.
    8x10 is ofcourse still the highest resolution by quite a margin, even without the 'for the buck' part and that will stay that way. I hope some light will be shed by this test on how easy it is to get a workable file with good color from the various digital systems. Interpretation of the results can't be done by anyone else but the user based on their own requirements and he or she will want to have different variables tested which makes this an impossibly difficult test to conduct for a third party.
    Thats a very interesting comparison on the film vs digital. Yes, film can produce higher resolution than digital. I don't think it included scan backs like the early Phase One or BetterLight systems, which I went to 1st from 4x5 and 8x10 film. The problem with film is and was always that it was very time consuming operation, to say nothing of how hard it is to find decent E6 labs and such nowadays.
    As a professional drum scanner operator for well over 25 years, I can say that cleaning, oil mounting, analyzing, drum scanning, un-mounting, cleaning the drum and maintenance on the scanner and again cleaning the transparencies takes a very long time.

    I look forward to reviewing results of this test.
    Especially Sony A7Rll vs IQ150/250 but it won't make a big difference in what we use now and how we use it for a long time.
    It will get us to thinking about directions for 2-3 years down the road.

    I have full confidence in Doug and DT to do a great job on this like they do on everything else

    Thanks for doing this, Doug!

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Many thanks for doing this Doug.

    Simply given I am looking at getting into medium format digital, and given my background with Leica, a comparison with the Leica S would have been superb (but seems unlikely).

    I showed my wife samples from both a Leica M240 and an S. "You can walk into the picture" with the S, came the immediate view of the very large 50" prints. Forget megapixels, there is a different look and tonality, obviously, in large prints from medium format.

    I will look at the results from the Sony A7Rii, and assume the Leica does better than the Sony despite similar Megapixels (given larger pixel size, hence better acuity, and better lenses) so the Sony comparison will still be useful as a benchmark.

    Thanks again!

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Helped by an equipment loan by Pradeep, we captured the following additions to the Massive Still Life Test on Friday after hours...

    Cameras
    - IQ3 50mp (previously we only had the Credo 40, Credo 50, IQ3 100mp, IQ3 80mp, IQ3
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 55mm
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 90 macro*
    - Sony A7RII with 55mm Zeiss
    - Sony A7RII with 24mm Zeiss
    - Canon 5Ds R with 50/1.2

    Tests completed:
    - ISO sweep (even light)
    - ISO sweep (contrasty light)
    - Aperture sweep

    I'll process and post these files early next week. We have a few more tests to complete Monday which will delay my ability to process, organize, and upload these files.

    My apologies to anyone whose preferred camera was not included. There is no limit to the number of cameras, lenses, and variables I would have liked to test. We've worked some crazy hours since the release of the 100mp to do these tests while also keeping up with our normal day-to-day work. If you were hoping for a different camera or lens... Digital Transitions is always glad to host any test at our facilities in NYC and LA; we have an extensive range of Phase/Leaf gear, basic studio amenities (lighting, modifiers, stands, tripods, and computers) and are glad to have you bring whatever gear you'd like to make any comparison you'd like.

    *The test set was based on a normal-length lens and the column on the copy stand used was not tall enough to reproduce identical framing with this longer-than-normal lens so it was cropped in a bit. We included it despite the tighter crop giving the Pentax an artificial advantage regarding resolution.
    Last edited by dougpeterson; 16th January 2016 at 16:06.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I agree about inclusion of the A7RII. I have that camera along with a Phase 65+ back on a Hassy, and I have done a few comparisons...not many but a couple.... and to be fair I would suggest using a top prime with the Sony... I have even done a comparison using the Otus 55 1.4 on the A7RII. .....eleanor

    PS...just saw what cameras are included and I'm glad you will be using the 55 1.8 sony/zeiss. While it can't beat the Otus (which doesn't come in a sony mount anyway), it is an extremely goods lens on my A7RII. Looking forward to comparisons.



    Quote Originally Posted by Quentin_Bargate View Post
    I would have thought the inclusion of the A7RII is essential. It is a class defining camera that uses very similar sensor technology as used in the new Phase One IQ3 100mp. I think its good enough to replace most digital MF, but is that a step too far? These very useful tests might determine that question. Also, no Hasselblad?

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Cameras
    - IQ3 50mp (previously we only had the Credo 40, Credo 50, IQ3 100mp, IQ3 80mp, IQ3
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 55mm
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 90 macro*
    - Sony A7RII with 55mm Zeiss
    - Sony A7RII with 24mm Zeiss
    - Canon 5Ds R with 50/1.2

    .
    did I miss something? What was the camera/lens combo's tested for the digital backs?
    wayne
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    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Hi Doug,

    Your efforts are much appreciated. Hopefully, this images will improve our understanding some aspects of image quality and how those are affected by things like sensor size, pixel size and so on.

    Also, a lot of thanks for sharing raw files.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by dougpeterson View Post
    Helped by an equipment loan by Pradeep, we captured the following additions to the Massive Still Life Test on Friday after hours...

    Cameras
    - IQ3 50mp (previously we only had the Credo 40, Credo 50, IQ3 100mp, IQ3 80mp, IQ3
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 55mm
    - Pentax 645Z DNGs with 90 macro*
    - Sony A7RII with 55mm Zeiss
    - Sony A7RII with 24mm Zeiss
    - Canon 5Ds R with 50/1.2

    Tests completed:
    - ISO sweep (even light)
    - ISO sweep (contrasty light)
    - Aperture sweep

    I'll process and post these files early next week. We have a few more tests to complete Monday which will delay my ability to process, organize, and upload these files.

    My apologies to anyone whose preferred camera was not included. There is no limit to the number of cameras, lenses, and variables I would have liked to test. We've worked some crazy hours since the release of the 100mp to do these tests while also keeping up with our normal day-to-day work. If you were hoping for a different camera or lens... Digital Transitions is always glad to host any test at our facilities in NYC and LA; we have an extensive range of Phase/Leaf gear, basic studio amenities (lighting, modifiers, stands, tripods, and computers) and are glad to have you bring whatever gear you'd like to make any comparison you'd like.

    *The test set was based on a normal-length lens and the column on the copy stand used was not tall enough to reproduce identical framing with this longer-than-normal lens so it was cropped in a bit. We included it despite the tighter crop giving the Pentax an artificial advantage regarding resolution.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Hi,

    Some more information would be nice. Just some examples:

    • Camera used
    • How focusing was done and intended plane of focus
    • Illumination used


    Best regards
    Erik



    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Fox View Post
    did I miss something? What was the camera/lens combo's tested for the digital backs?

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    Senior Member Chris Giles's Avatar
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I'm surprised that the 50 1.2L was used for the Canon. It has known focus drift.
    Last edited by Chris Giles; 17th January 2016 at 10:20.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    I'm surprised that the 50 1.2L was used for the Canon. If has known focus drift.
    I don't really see how that will affect the outcome of this test.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Doug, thanks so much for doing this. I am sure we are all eagerly awaiting the results.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Chris Giles View Post
    I'm surprised that the 50 1.2L was used for the Canon. If has known focus drift.
    Trust me, having done tests routinely for public consumption for nearly a decade now, no matter what choices you make there are several "I can't believe you didn't" or "you should have" responses. They aren't wrong; they just show that testing is a rorschach test; you'll approach it with a bias toward whatever shooting style, technical needs, and personal preferences.

    If I had used an Otus on the Canon someone would have said "you should have used a Canon brand lens since that's what most people shoot with, and the Otus isn't even autofocus" etc etc. If I had used the 50/1.4 people would have said "why use the cheaper/lower-end 50". If I used used the sigma, etc etc.

    Given that we can't run every sub-test with every camera with every lens (with every kind of subject matter with every kind of lighting), the results will always exclude potentially useful combinations. I think comparative tests are always very limited in nature; real world photography isn't a function of controlling every variable or matching focal lengths, it is about getting the most out of a particular set of gear, and picking the right tool for the job, and learning the gear well enough (and having gear with the appropriate features and interface) that the gear is the last thing you're worried about at the time you want to create an image.

    We provide these test because we are so frequently asked for them by our customers. But ultimately I think they are far less valuable than using the gear yourself in situations similar (or identical) to your actual intended use. That's why we offer rental-toward purchase, open houses, appointment-based free use of our studio, and attend workshops and trade shows (like WPPI coming up in a bit, or the Breed Workshop we were at in LA this weekend. An hour with a camera in your hand will tell you far more than an afternoon spent looking at these files regarding whether it will suit you.

    All that said, I will gladly provide my time and my company will gladly open its studio and equipment vault (in LA and NYC) to anyone who wishes to make a different comparison.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by JeRuFo View Post
    I don't really see how that will affect the outcome of this test.
    It will just reaffirm how mediocre the 1.2 lens is when stopped down. It would as useful as using the old mamiya 1.9 80mm.
    Sensible choice would have been the 45mm, sigma 50, 50mm 1.4 but that might have skewed things in the 5ds's favour.
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I was ofcourse talking about the focus issues of the lens. But you're right, for sheer resolution there are better options. Since the 24mm Zeiss was tested it would be interesting to use the 24mm t/s-e as well to compare to the wider Rodies that will no doubt be in the test, best Canon lens that side of a 50mm I've ever used and a favorite on the a7 for many as well.
    But still, this test is about ball park figures, not whether certain lenses have 5% less CA etc. A final decision should still be made by the buyer based on testing it in their own workflow.

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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Sony A7RII, Pentax 645Z, and Canon 5Ds R have now been added.

    https://digitaltransitions.com/massi...life-shootout/

    Over 30gb of raw files available for free download.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Doug,

    First off thanks for doing this test, I know it had to be very time consuming. As these tests usually provide results that are very close, picking a winner may be personal taste at times.
    So Doug, after completing this test can you provide us with a opinion of what you saw? Maybe specific comments that surprised you.

    Thanks
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    I agree that no test will satisfy everyone so that is why one must do it's own testing if possible but even if a test is not tailor made to one's needs or quite scientific with a proper device (Like Lens Rental's Roger Cicala's Optical Bench Lens tests) one can get a lot of info out of it. Enough to know that the differences between sensors might be so minor that one looks at other factors for differentiation and choosing criteria between models.

    In the case of the Phase One backs there are several great choices now. The sensor is just one component of a system.

    IMHO for landscapes the sweetspot nowadays is the IQ160 and the IQ260 (only if you must have LE capability), specially for tech camera use. Even Yunli (which has seemingly endless DR and LE needs) has produced some stunning images with the 260. Money no object the IQ3 100mp is a no brainer whether its for SLR or Tech camera use (w/ Rodenstock HR-W's) and the 80MP backs are close behind if you do not need the extra 1.5 stops of DR and extra LE capability of the 100mp model. For SLR work the 50mp CMOS model is awesome, specially for higher volume photography.

    Doug thanks for your contribution. It's a lot of work and it's appreciated.
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    Re: The Big Shootout of 2016: Phase/Leaf/Pentax/Canon/Sony

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken_R View Post
    the IQ3 100mp is a no brainer whether its for SLR or Tech camera use (w/ Rodenstock HR-W's) and the 80MP backs are close behind if you do not need the extra 1.5 stops of DR and extra LE capability of the 100mp model.
    Not so sure. I was just playing with the 23HR and 32HR files posted by CI. There is still quite a bit of cast left over after the new 9.0.3 LCC is applied.

    Now, the CI files were quite underexposed, so will need to play with more samples.

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