Site Sponsors
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 86

Thread: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Singer Island, Florida
    Posts
    129
    Post Thanks / Like

    A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I thought I would leave this article, published today, for everyone to mull over.

    Some interesting real world comments and practical thoughts, albeit there is some personal considerations, opinions and perhaps a bit of conjecture.

    Take it for what it is.

    I did notice there is little discussion regarding lenses. Further, Pentax is mentioned but that thought is not carried through.

    Enjoy the reading.

    I Switched From Phase One to Nikon. Here's Why.
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    North Sweden
    Posts
    1,401
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Nice article, these things are good to read from an anecdotal view point, man finds a system that works better for him and buys it, it's designed to prompt discussion but his decision doesn't mean anything to anyone but him. I moved from Nikon to MF and would never move back, except for probably picking up a D500 for some event work because it's the right tool for the job. Ultimately, finding the equipment that allows you to work optimally is always the key, what that equipment is is not important to anyone else, unless someone feels that using the same equipment as someone who is good will help them to be good too, in which case, go for it!

    Mat
    http://matrichardson.com/
    Workshops for 2018! http://www.matrichardson.com/workshops
    Likes 5 Member(s) liked this post

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    311
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I switched from Nikon to the 645Z and I'm not looking back either! Dude pointed out that the Z was out because of the 1/125th flash sync, but the D810 has a whole 1 stop more, and they both have HSS so... Another person just doesn't do any research because "Pentax".

    Granted if he's just shooting magazine editorial the D810 is a fine choice and more than adequate to the task. If he was really having a ton of reliability issues with his Phase equipment it sounds like he was abusing it and needs something bullet proof.

  4. #4
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Munich
    Posts
    876
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Good read, even though I had the feeling I read nearly the same stuff before. ?!?

    I think it depends on the needs. I don't see a problem with flying. There is no difference for me between taking my phase one or Nikon gear with me. A real difference would make a song with 3 primes.

  5. #5
    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Posts
    1,206
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    One less competitor to worry about IMO. The quality of photographs in the article kind of demonstrate the point.
    Ed Cooley Fine Art Photography
     
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  6. #6
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,926
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Good read, even though I had the feeling I read nearly the same stuff before. ?!?

    I think it depends on the needs. I don't see a problem with flying. There is no difference for me between taking my phase one or Nikon gear with me. A real difference would make a song with 3 primes.
    I thought the same thing, I believe it was posted before mid last year. I remember the same format, type of photographer, issues, answers etc.

    Can't find the other blog post now.

    Paul C

  7. #7
    Senior Member darr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    980
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    "#11. All the cool kids are doing it"

    Really? I guess I never notice.
    "Creativity takes courage." ~ Henri Matisse
    Darlene Almeda, photoscapes.com
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    North Texas
    Posts
    516
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    MF is not for everyone, I get it...
    However based on some recent threads and posts I wonder if this is the "Bash Medium Format" forum.
    I love the civility and decorum of this forum - the diversity, the encouragement and acceptance of various points of view.
    But lately there has been a constant barrage of negativity toward MF that I find quite offensive.
    I honestly hope this is not something permanent.
    IQ3 100 • Cambo 1600 • Rodenstock 23,32,50,90 • Zeiss 350SA
    UnTroubled Land
    Likes 10 Member(s) liked this post

  9. #9
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I can't believe how many otherwise sensible seeming people get sucked into these threads, often yielding hundreds of posts.
    Likes 4 Member(s) liked this post

  10. #10
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    1,068
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    83

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I think all the other pools/forums are drying up or have dried up...so here they come. The irony is that most of us with an MF kit, also have at least one if not more 35mm kits. There is no need to convince us of anything. Same goes the other way, we are not trying to convince anybody of anything.
    Likes 7 Member(s) liked this post

  11. #11
    Member AreBee's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Highlands, Scotland
    Posts
    171
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Christopher, Paul,

    ...I had the feeling I read nearly the same stuff before...
    I thought the same thing...
    Link.

  12. #12
    Senior Member DougDolde's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    Joshua Tree, CA
    Posts
    484
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Likely he's smarter than the rest of us P1 junkies.

  13. #13
    Member modator's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Location
    Northern Italy
    Posts
    126
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    32

    Thumbs up Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Well done !
    The next article woul be "A switch: Nikon to a little Sony bridge camera" !
    That's the way the Young photographer are going..... The 135 slr are too bulky and heavy and the quality of the new bridge camera are going better and better...
    For many fashion subject is impossible to distinguish the difference !
    The new file size for pubblication on the web magazine is going 800x600 pixel maximum size... That's the future !

    Best regards, Domenico.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Member Jan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Kuala Lumpur
    Posts
    179
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I thought the same thing, I believe it was posted before mid last year. I remember the same format, type of photographer, issues, answers etc.

    Can't find the other blog post now.

    Paul C
    If you scroll through the comments, which i did, the photographer is saying he first published on Reddit and was asked by PetaPixel to re-publish. For what it is worth 😉
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  15. #15
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I had this conversation with a working Pro from China several months back; a photographer whose fashion images get put up on billboards. He had just finished shooting a job with his Phase IQ and a D810 -- he said while the Phase images were technically superior, his client chose one of the Nikon images for their billboard. His comment was simply that we as photographers that edit the images daily can readily see the nuanced differences, but his clients -- and he emphasized these were his particular clients -- are rarely seeking technical perfection as much as a certain look that generates an emotion.

    In response I would say you cannot argue the convenience factor. And it's tough to argue the image resolution differences at magazine full page size, 4K static, and even less so at conventional web resolutions and color spaces. And apparently this holds even for billboard resolution. Finally, there is the increase in web video which a lot of clients are moving to. So yeah, even for the strictest commercial purposes, it's tough to argue this author's reasoning. But there is still a notable tonal and resolution advantage to the MF file when compared directly to the D810's onscreen, and there remain visible color, tonal and "character" differences (superiorities?) to MF when viewing large prints from each.

    That said, just because it worked for this pro or my friend above, doesn't mean it will work out that way for every pro. And then, for the hobbyist/artist where net IQ, resolution, color and tonality may be the holy grails, there is no contest.

    What I find most interesting is what this brings up as as a discussion point: Historically (and I suspect presently) MFDB manufacturers have seen their prime customers as the working pros in commercial fashion, studio and advertising. Will this now morph toward the serious hobbyist/artist? I for one think probably so...
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  16. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Little Rock AR
    Posts
    1,926
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    3

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    The problem with a billboard, at least to me, is that really a 20MP image can get there, billboards have been made with iPhone images. You are viewing something that is most times 25 yards or more away and tends to be up another 20 feet off the ground. Plus most time you the viewer are moving, in a car, cab, bus, train, and you don't have anytime to focus, and look too hard at the image. Plus the average art director or designer I have worked with over the past 5 years, pretty much felt that all I needed to do was plug the camera into the printer and hit print. The internet has changed the way a lot of professionals view large detailed prints. The folks making the print they know different, but why argue, it never seems to pay off, just go with the flow.

    I have sold images of this size from MF, DSLR, (stitched files) and for this size either platform worked. The print quality is also not of very great concern.

    However when the image is large an within close viewing distance, it's another story totally at least to me. Here resolution is king and MF even a 60MP shot can go further. We are talking 75" x 120" at 300ppi output, which will be viewed from 24" or less.

    It's all a matter of what the customer wants.

    Paul C
    Paul Caldwell
    [email protected]
    www.photosofarkansas.com
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  17. #17
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nykφping Sweden
    Posts
    1,191
    Post Thanks / Like

    My take on this…

    Hi,

    My take on this is that any photographer, or other craftsman, may choose his/her tools of the trade according to specific needs. The fact that the same article has been published twice has little (almost zero) relevance.

    Clearly, each job has requirements. A craftsman/photographer may choose to use a tool that exceeds those requirements.

    • On the other hand, there are also a lot of physical limitations. One is point of view. You really want to shoot a king cobra with an ultrawide?
    • Another limitation is DoF. The best lens on the XF won't help you if you need sharpness from 0.5 m to infinity. What you need is tilt.
    • The depth of focus and diffraction will always limit your options, tilts may be a solution


    • So, if you shoot sports you need accurate AF, short response time and good high ISO capability.
    • In many cases you need to use Scheinmpflug
    • Or you need shift
    • Or a fish eye lens


    Printing small, like A2 (16" x 23") you don't need all those megapixels, ten of them may do. Printing large you may need all MP you can get, especially if your prints are viewed close. "Look at that thing! Is it a penguin or a dust speck?".

    So, I would say that it is far more important to have adequate equipment, matching requirements, than great equipment.

    Best regards
    Erik

  18. #18
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    He sites reliability issues as one of the major reasons. That makes sense. When you're on a job, it's more important to have reliable equipment than probably anything else. There's a lot of stuff one will sacrifice for a camera that just works.

  19. #19
    Senior Member ErikKaffehr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Nykφping Sweden
    Posts
    1,191
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Hi,

    That is correct, but it applies to any camera system. I always carry two cameras when on travel. The backup doesn't need to be as good as the primary, but still needs to be good enough.

    Best regards
    Erik


    Quote Originally Posted by Abstraction View Post
    He sites reliability issues as one of the major reasons. That makes sense. When you're on a job, it's more important to have reliable equipment than probably anything else. There's a lot of stuff one will sacrifice for a camera that just works.

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    446
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I rarely pay attention to this type of thing because the uses of MF and dslr are so clear for my own purposes. I use MF when I am working for my most demanding clients (me, myself and I) and/or need movements. If I could, I would have a digital LF camera for those applications. Just the thought of a 4 x 5 multishot CCD on the P2 makes me go all weak in the knees. I am not alone. If the MF manufacturers made something like that we would not need to have this discussion.

    I use a convenient mirrorless camera for routine work - which would include shots for paying clients if I were a pro.

    It seems to me that as photography changes from a highly skilled craft to whatever it is today, we no longer value the unique capabilities of studio cameras. Most young photographers I meet do not even know what movements are. If we no longer need those capabilities, we no longer need the skills and tools that gave them to us. Sadly.
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 2 Member(s) liked this post

  21. #21
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    216
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by etrump View Post
    One less competitor to worry about IMO. The quality of photographs in the article kind of demonstrate the point.
    Your own images are no more valid than those in the article.
    He is obviously doing well in his sector of the photography industry and has refined his tools and working methods.
    The idea that MF somehow elevates you above somebody with a small sensor is a cretinous notion. I abandoned that kind of thinking when I sold my 10x8 to some doe eyed amateur moving on from a Leica fixation.
    Last edited by MrSmith; 1st April 2016 at 14:25.
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.
    Likes 3 Member(s) liked this post

  22. #22
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    What are valid images?

  23. #23
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    What are valid images?
    The ones I post.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  24. #24
    Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    Posts
    216
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by stephengilbert View Post
    What are valid images?
    Ones that aren't vapid.
    HTH
    never trust the opinion of anyone who lists a load of gear in their forum signature. Dealers do not email me asking to buy your products.

  25. #25
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I'm actually very interested in the reliability issues he's describing. I heard rumblings about that. What are your experiences as far as reliability is concerned? Does the camera have a tendency to lock up? I also noticed that he was talking specifically about the camera, not the back.

  26. #26
    Senior Member stephengilbert's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Santa Monica, CA
    Posts
    2,272
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    2

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    You've got to activate your troll detectors.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  27. #27
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I'll put my happy face on:

  28. #28
    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, WA
    Posts
    5,800
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    564

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Abstraction View Post
    I'm actually very interested in the reliability issues he's describing. I heard rumblings about that. What are your experiences as far as reliability is concerned? Does the camera have a tendency to lock up? I also noticed that he was talking specifically about the camera, not the back.
    TBH the AF/AFD/AFDII/DF/DF+ system has always had the tendency to lock up just when you least wanted it to. His observations with that camera are spot on. It is also why I left the Mamiya/Kodak DCS645M system the first time around with MF Digital.

    I have not had any issues with my XF in the field by comparison. Will I find a situation where it messes up? Yes, I know I will (I've seen at least one lock up in the wild but not mine) but it seems orders of magnitude better than the DF/DF+ that this person baled from. That said, the XF is still being actively developed with new functionality and bug fixes coming out regularly.

    I dare say that if you looked and asked around you'd find similar stories of people leaving Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Canon etc etc for new destinations such as Sony.
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

  29. #29
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    IMHO, the old adage "Horses For Courses" is still highly valid … IF … you are able to define the different "Courses" you will be running.

    Personally, it is a crystal clear distinction for me. I can line list exactly how I use each piece of gear and why. When and if technology alters that, or my work demands change, then that list can change.

    How other's may use certain gear often has zero influence on my choices … unless they are engaged in similar tasks:

    For example, use of 18 to 24 meg 135mm cameras for weddings I once did on a regular basis. There I needed AF speed, higher ISO, good zoom ranges and choice of primes with faster apertures, a good speed-light system and dual card capture. That usually meant a Canon or Nikon. I just sold the last of those types of camera (a Sony A99). At the time, the Sony Mirrorless cameras couldn't quite make it for weddings in the same way. They just now are getting closer, but I no longer need a wedding specific system … so I now have a Sony A7R and A7R-II.

    MFD is much easier for me to distinguish from any 135 format system.

    Every MFD system I've had uses leaf shutter lenses. V system sync to 1/500. H system to 1/800. Now a S system to 1/1000.

    It isn't a matter of just using leaf shutter sync when needed (which does frequently happen) … I also create visual scenarios that require it. It is part of my conceptual visual thinking.

    The Sony A7R-II can NOT do that. On the other hand, like the Sony, the S camera can shoot focal plane shutter work with the same set of leaf-shutter CS lenses, and the S lenses are fast aperture for MF.

    For example, one of my shooting partners and I will be doing a beach shoot in Florida. We will get ideal early light and segue to not so great midday sun. Using a Hensel Porty 1200L pack we can over-power that sun … but the best his A7R-II can do is 1/180 sync … I'll have up to 1/1000 to control the background ambience.

    Because I use lighting a lot, that advantage alone makes MFD worth it to me … and it isn't the only reason. However, those other reasons have been beaten to death in another similar thread.

    Size is not an issue when in studio … the camera is on a heavy duty tripod … on location I have transport options including a beach trolly with fat wheels, When driving I ALWAYS take the MFD kit as well as a smaller walk-round no-brainer; on planes I use the Airport Extreme roller case.

    I do appreciate the ease and convenience of the Sony mirror-less cameras … which is why I have that "Horse" to run certain courses.

    - Marc
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  30. #30
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    TBH the AF/AFD/AFDII/DF/DF+ system has always had the tendency to lock up just when you least wanted it to. His observations with that camera are spot on. It is also why I left the Mamiya/Kodak DCS645M system the first time around with MF Digital.

    I have not had any issues with my XF in the field by comparison. Will I find a situation where it messes up? Yes, I know I will (I've seen at least one lock up in the wild but not mine) but it seems orders of magnitude better than the DF/DF+ that this person baled from. That said, the XF is still being actively developed with new functionality and bug fixes coming out regularly.

    I dare say that if you looked and asked around you'd find similar stories of people leaving Hasselblad, Leica, Nikon, Canon etc etc for new destinations such as Sony.
    I shot with Mamiya m645 and c220 back in the day. The 645 series was notoriously bad. There were always issues with frame spacing and advance mechanism. Those would constantly fail. The c220 was bullet proof, as was the RB67. Hasselblad owners were also unhappy because the backs used to fail constantly. They needed to be babied. The ones who seemed generally happy with their system were the Bronica owners. Those seemed to be very solid.

    I haven't heard much complaining with Canon or Nikon, but the Sony and Pentax people complain more about the service, the turn around time and the quality of service, rather than the cameras themselves. Naturally, every make camera might fail, it's more about how wide spread the problems are.

  31. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    598
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    For example, one of my shooting partners and I will be doing a beach shoot in Florida. We will get ideal early light and segue to not so great midday sun. Using a Hensel Porty 1200L pack we can over-power that sun … but the best his A7R-II can do is 1/180 sync … I'll have up to 1/1000 to control the background ambience.
    Just a quick note. If you can live with a fixed lens, the Sony RX1 has a central shutter and syncs to 1/2000s. I mention this because apparently few people realised that the RX1 can do that and, in some cases, a small camera with a fast sync may be very useful.

  32. #32
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Abstraction View Post
    The ones who seemed generally happy with their system were the Bronica owners. Those seemed to be very solid.
    funny you say this, i absolute agree, when i was at the beginning of my career i had a very complete etrsi system and loved it. the fim magazin design was very solid and easy to handle compaired to the flimsy hasselblad back and the body was extrem reliable. very different to my business partners mamiy 645 which had more service than shooting time.

  33. #33
    Member Abstraction's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    233
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    funny you say this, i absolute agree, when i was at the beginning of my career i had a very complete etrsi system and loved it. the fim magazin design was very solid and easy to handle compaired to the flimsy hasselblad back and the body was extrem reliable. very different to my business partners mamiy 645 which had more service than shooting time.
    Yeah, the m645 was a bitch. I had two cameras go on me at a job. You can imagine the stress I had to go through. I carried the c220 as my third backup. I figured if I ever have a situation where I have all 3 cameras fail on me at a job including my c220, I'll just quit and do something else.

    The Bronicas were like tanks. The ETR and the SQ both. There were never wide spread issues with them, at least none that I heard of. I made a mistake of buying into the m645 because I liked the instant return mirror and the m645 were the only cameras that had it.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  34. #34
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post

    For example, one of my shooting partners and I will be doing a beach shoot in Florida. We will get ideal early light and segue to not so great midday sun. Using a Hensel Porty 1200L pack we can over-power that sun … but the best his A7R-II can do is 1/180 sync … I'll have up to 1/1000 to control the background ambience.

    Because I use lighting a lot, that advantage alone makes MFD worth it to me … and it isn't the only reason. However, those other reasons have been beaten to death in another similar thread.


    I do appreciate the ease and convenience of the Sony mirror-less cameras … which is why I have that "Horse" to run certain courses.

    - Marc

    .. you are a a nice guy so you will tell your friend for sure to bring a ND 0,9 filter to capture the same look.. no ?

  35. #35
    Sr. Administrator Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Los Altos, CA
    Posts
    10,486
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1031

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    .. you are a a nice guy so you will tell your friend for sure to bring a ND 0,9 filter to capture the same look.. no ?
    No offense, but you appear to not fully understand lighting science. That 3-stop ND also kills the flash output at the same rate it attenuates the Sun, so unless you are working very close to a subject or have an uber powerful strobe -- which is not currently available for portable outdoor use -- you cannot achieve the same result with an ND and slower shutter. Moreover, you frequently need to synch at 1/1500th -- 3 stops over 1/180th is only 1/750th, so we'd need a 4-stop ND and twice as many porta-packs to generate 2x more output than the first set.

    So yeah, it could be done with a lot of extra money in porta-packs and heads and a lot more money for assistants to schlep them all, but frankly not nearly as convenient or cost-effective as having the proper tool (leaf-shutter synch) to begin with.

    Cheers,
    Jack
    home: www.getdpi.com

    "Perfection is not attainable. But if we chase perfection, we can catch excellence."
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 7 Member(s) liked this post

  36. #36
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    Just a quick note. If you can live with a fixed lens, the Sony RX1 has a central shutter and syncs to 1/2000s. I mention this because apparently few people realised that the RX1 can do that and, in some cases, a small camera with a fast sync may be very useful.
    Thanks! Actually, I did know that. It made that little Sony a camera of interest.

    The question I have about 1/2000 full sync is how they achieve that since most radio senders top out at 1/500 sync and only a few top out at 1/1000+. Very interesting subject. Does the Sony RX have a PC port? I suppose it could work if the camera was hard-wired to the strobe. It may be that the 1/2000 is mostly for speed-light work (???). I admit to not knowing enough about how this camera delivers 1/2000 sync.

    The other issue with sync beyond 1/800 is the strobe's flash duration rating at or near full power. You have to watch that you do not exceed the flash duration of many strobe units. My strobes just make it at 1/1000 flash duration when the transmitter is set to the speed setting of 1/1000.

    But it is all a moot point … Unfortunately, a fixed focal length doesn't work for me, especially when shooting people which 90% of my work involves.

    I can be shooting a wide angle 35mm MF lens for a full length "environmental portrait" (think landscape with a person in it), or a group of people … then the next minute a waist up framing with a normal MF 70mm , then onto a more portrait oriented set of shots using a telephoto from 120mm to 180mm. I have those leaf-shutter lenses in those focal lengths for real reasons.

    - Marc

  37. #37
    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Carmel/Tucson
    Posts
    2,355
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    ....
    The question I have about 1/2000 full sync is how they achieve that since most radio senders top out at 1/500 sync and only a few top out at 1/1000+. Very interesting subject. Does the Sony RX have a PC port? I suppose it could work if the camera was hard-wired to the strobe. It may be that the 1/2000 is mostly for speed-light work (???). I admit to not knowing enough about how this camera delivers 1/2000 sync.

    ...
    I don't know much about Sony, as it really is just a P&S camera for me. But with regard to wireless flash sync triggering----you can set PWIII to fast mode and sync up to ~1/1600. Profoto Air transmitter also needs to be set to "fast" mode, but with Profoto, you already knew that. And, egads, yes you can wirelessly trigger with at 1/1600 flash sync with the cheapo Paul Buff cybersync.

    ken

  38. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    598
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    The question I have about 1/2000 full sync is how they achieve that since most radio senders top out at 1/500 sync and only a few top out at 1/1000+. Very interesting subject. Does the Sony RX have a PC port? I suppose it could work if the camera was hard-wired to the strobe. It may be that the 1/2000 is mostly for speed-light work (???). I admit to not knowing enough about how this camera delivers 1/2000 sync.

    The other issue with sync beyond 1/800 is the strobe's flash duration rating at or near full power. You have to watch that you do not exceed the flash duration of many strobe units. My strobes just make it at 1/1000 flash duration when the transmitter is set to the speed setting of 1/1000.
    Quite frankly, I have never tried a studio flash with the RX1. But I see no reason why sync would not work with a cable (using a PC adapter for the hot shoe), because the sync problems are a specific problem of radio transmitters and don't happen with cables. The flash duration of studio flashed would still be a problem at 1/2000s, however.

    But in practice, what is important is that the RX1 has a central shutter and syncs at speed useful with studio flashes outside, like 1/1000s...
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  39. #39
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    .. you are a a nice guy so you will tell your friend for sure to bring a ND 0,9 filter to capture the same look.. no ?
    What Jack said.

    Don't worry, a lot of people make that same mistake thinking you can ND it, and get the same result as a leaf-shutter solution.

    There are a few other advantages besides just beating back an overly bright background behind a subject.

    For example, using the lowest non-pull ISO, I can shoot at 1/1000 sync and use a wider aperture to control the DOF better than I can at 1/180 sync.

    Conversely, I've used a higher sync speed to absolutely kill all ambient lit clutter behind an indoor subject while still maintaining a high quality ISO setting and exactly controlling the light on that subject.

    Don't confuse this with HSS available with most speed-lights. A good speed-light yields around 70W/s of lighting energy, where the average strobe delivers 500W/s (my Porty does 1200W/s). When using HSS on a Speed-light the total energy is spread out over a series of smaller flashes so a faster shutter can be used. But you have to be pretty close to the subject and not need a lot of light (like just some fill).

    Of great interest to me is Profoto's recent addition of HSS to their OCF B1 and B2 TTL battery strobes. Currently, it can be used with Nikon and Canon cameras. HSS works the same way as with a speed-light, thus weakens the amount of light on the subject … BUT … you are weakening a total of 500W/s as opposed to 70W/s of a speed-light. That could work in quite a few situations.

    Rumor has it that Profoto will include Sony as a supported TTL camera. Remains to be seen whether the HSS feature is also supported. Hope so!!!

    - Marc

  40. #40
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack View Post
    No offense, but you appear to not fully understand lighting science. That 3-stop ND also kills the flash output at the same rate it attenuates the Sun, so unless you are working very close to a subject or have an uber powerful strobe -- which is not currently available for portable outdoor use -- you cannot achieve the same result with an ND and slower shutter. Moreover, you frequently need to synch at 1/1500th -- 3 stops over 1/180th is only 1/750th, so we'd need a 4-stop ND and twice as many porta-packs to generate 2x more output than the first set.

    So yeah, it could be done with a lot of extra money in porta-packs and heads and a lot more money for assistants to schlep them all, but frankly not nearly as convenient or cost-effective as having the proper tool (leaf-shutter synch) to begin with.

    Cheers,
    no problem jack but i do understand the relation between flash power, nd filters and shutters very well. the main question is what look do we want - an unnatural day for night style or a more balanced result with the flash as key light. if it is the first than yes you will need more flash power with an nd filter and the higher sync cameras has a clear advantage but if you are for the later it works very well in practice with just the use of an weak nd filter. i did use this technic in the past for a couple of people shootings most of the time at noon on sunny austrian glaciers with my elinchrom ranger and i did never run into not having enough flash power.

    but when you look closer it gets more tricky anyway and another problem appears. high sync speed can come with the penalty that you loose some of the emitted power. a hensel porty needs 1/300 sec to deliver his 1200 J so depending on the flash head the power pack, the shutter speed and also how you tripgerr the flash, wirless or with a cord you end up with very different power results minimizing some of the advantages of higher sync speeds.

    the last point i also think you made an error with you f stop calculations - my hasselblad h3dII for example syncs at 1/800 my sony a7r2 at 250 so the hasselblad has a speed advantage of 1 2/3 stops but in practice it is enough to compensate the flash power by 1 1/2 stop because of the better dynamic range of the sony.



    christian

  41. #41
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by CSP View Post
    no problem jack but i do understand the relation between flash power, nd filters and shutters very well. the main question is what look do we want - an unnatural day for night style or a more balanced result with the flash as key light. if it is the first than yes you will need more flash power with an nd filter and the higher sync cameras has a clear advantage but if you are for the later it works very well in practice with just the use of an weak nd filter. i did use this technic in the past for a couple of people shootings most of the time at noon on sunny austrian glaciers with my elinchrom ranger and i did never run into not having enough flash power.

    but when you look closer it gets more tricky anyway and another problem appears. high sync speed can come with the penalty that you loose some of the emitted power. a hensel porty needs 1/300 sec to deliver his 1200 J so depending on the flash head the power pack, the shutter speed and also how you tripgerr the flash, wirless or with a cord you end up with very different power results minimizing some of the advantages of higher sync speeds.

    the last point i also think you made an error with you f stop calculations - my hasselblad h3dII for example syncs at 1/800 my sony a7r2 at 250 so the hasselblad has a speed advantage of 1 2/3 stops but in practice it is enough to compensate the flash power by 1 1/2 stop because of the better dynamic range of the sony.

    christian
    I'm glad NDs work for you and how you shoot Christian.

    They do not work for me, and never have.

    ND filters do not affect the lighting ratio when you trying to change that ratio. Shutter speed is what affects ambient while not affecting flash exposure … allowing you to alter the ratio.

    In practice I never get the Day-For-Night effect in the conditions I'm shooting in where I need flexibility in changing conditions … which is easily accommodated by tweaking shutter speeds even 1/2 stop, and then adjusting flash output to achieve just the right balance.

    While your Hensel Porty data is correct it is narrowly selective to support your POV. It assumes t1 @ 100% output using a ProMini 1200P head … I use the Speed Heads which are twice as fast @ t1, and t5 duration of 1,580 at 1200W/s is well above the max sync speed of my Leica S camera using the built in Profoto AIR radio in the Hensel Porty 1200L. I've yet to see any negative t5 effect @ 1/1000 sync with the Porty/Speed Head at full output.

    BTW, it is a well documented issue that the 1/250 sync speed of the Sony A7R-II refers to use of Sony speed-lights. There is a deep discussion on DP Review with loads of experiences that place the sync speed at 1/160 for a clean image when using studio strobes. I've found the same thing with my A7R-II and Profoto, Hensel and EL Quadra systems, and so has my friend with Photogenics. Elinchrom is supposed to be working on a SkyPort transmitter for Sony to help achieve 1/250 … reported to be available in June.

    - Marc

  42. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Posts
    1,587
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    If one is to use NDs in this situation, how does the AF work? If you're cutting that much light out, doesn't the AF system of the camera start to stutter? At least whenever I've tried something like this it has been less than reliable
    .

  43. #43
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    155
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by tjv View Post
    If one is to use NDs in this situation, how does the AF work? If you're cutting that much light out, doesn't the AF system of the camera start to stutter? At least whenever I've tried something like this it has been less than reliable
    .
    when you start with a fast lens on a a7rII i have seen no issue even with an nd 1.8 on a bright day. ovf cameras are hurt much harder because the af system has already lost a lot of light trough the transparent mirror construction.

  44. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    598
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    All this is quite simple really. On MF cameras, focal plane shutter sync is about 1/125s. Central shutter sync is about 1/800s. The difference is about 3 stops: 1/125, 1/250, 1/500, 1/1000.

    So to keep the same aperture, we would need a x3 ND filter. That is not a big deal, that is about the density of a polarizing filter (and with these, we can still get AF and see what is going on in the viewfinder).

    On the flash side, we will need 6-8 times the power (each stops doubles the energy, or simply divide 800 per 125, which is 6.4). So if we need a 400 Ws strobe with a CS, we will need a 3000 Ws strobe with a focal plane shutter. That is a big difference. If we needed a couple of Porties with 1000 Ws with a CS (because we have large modifiers which are not too close from the model), we will need a generator truck with the focal plane shutter... renting a second camera is cheaper.

    The relationship in power is the same for the high speed modes.
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  45. #45
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Curious... would there be a market for a leaf shutter adapter for a focal-plane shutter SLR?
    Do such adapters exists?
    Basically delay leaf shutter for a few milliseconds until focal plane is fully open, keep the focal plane shutter fully open while the lens leaf shutter and flash fire?
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  46. #46
    Senior Member Malina DZ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    S. Florida
    Posts
    549
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars View Post
    Curious... would there be a market for a leaf shutter adapter for a focal-plane shutter SLR?
    Do such adapters exists?
    I'm sure there is a huge market for a leaf shutter lens to SLR camera adapter. I'd buy one now. David Hobby inquired about it in his blog post back in 12/2012, and there's been no attempt from anyone to offer such a product to public. He is contemplating about adapting a leaf shutter lens.

  47. #47
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Malina DZ View Post
    I'm sure there is a huge market for a leaf shutter lens to SLR camera adapter. I'd buy one now. David Hobby inquired about it in his blog post back in 12/2012, and there's been no attempt from anyone to offer such a product to public. He is contemplating about adapting a leaf shutter lens.
    Interesting.
    My gut feel is to make something simpler - a cable release adapter that fires the focal plane shutter at B when initially pressed, and triggers the leaf shutter in the lens when bottomed out. Conceptually this is VERY similar to a shutter adapter for Phase One that Alpa makes - purpose there is to wake up the back at initial press and trigger mechanical shutter at full press. The same electrical signal at initial press can be used to trigger a wired remote to a DSLR. This would of course be far less practical than a fully integrated system.

    Alpa sells this adapter for $700 - about the same price per ounce as 24K gold but I'm pretty sure the Chinese can make one for $1.99 plus $3 shipping.
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  48. #48
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    I suspect that High Speed Sync will eventually be solved on the lighting side verses the camera side.

    Profoto has introduced HSS for Canon and Nikon with their TTL B1 and B2 strobes. While HSS is much weaker, introducing it to higher powered strobes mitigates it somewhat when compared to a speed-light using HSS, (a point Profoto makes in their marketing). While not nearly as good as full output @ 1/800, 1/1000+ sync, it would most certainly go a long way in many circumstances.

    It is conceivable that a 1000W/s mono could be HSS capable, and a top shutter speed be recommended at 1/1600 for a balanced approach.

    It'd be very interesting if HSS could be added to the big packs … heck, maybe they're already working on that for all I know.

    - Marc

  49. #49
    Senior Member Lars's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Sunnyvale, California
    Posts
    1,811
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    19

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by fotografz View Post
    I suspect that High Speed Sync will eventually be solved on the lighting side verses the camera side.

    Profoto has introduced HSS for Canon and Nikon with their TTL B1 and B2 strobes. While HSS is much weaker, introducing it to higher powered strobes mitigates it somewhat when compared to a speed-light using HSS, (a point Profoto makes in their marketing). While not nearly as good as full output @ 1/800, 1/1000+ sync, it would most certainly go a long way in many circumstances.

    It is conceivable that a 1000W/s mono could be HSS capable, and a top shutter speed be recommended at 1/1600 for a balanced approach.

    It'd be very interesting if HSS could be added to the big packs … heck, maybe they're already working on that for all I know.

    - Marc
    HSS is continuous flash output over the entire time the focal plane shutter is travelling, right?
    Monochrome: http://mochro.com

  50. #50
    Super Duper
    Senior Member

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Royal Oak, MI and Palm Harbor, FL
    Posts
    8,498
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    44

    Re: A switch: Phase One to Nikon.........

    Quote Originally Posted by Lars View Post
    HSS is continuous flash output over the entire time the focal plane shutter is travelling, right?
    HSS is a series of super fast pulsed light that covers the entire time the focal plane shutter slit travels across the sensor. In many cases the speed-light is using maximum energy.

    This is a pretty good blog post on the subject … the author shares my enthusiasm for Profoto's recent adoption of HSS and also thinks it signals that HSS will indeed be solved by all light makers eventually.

    https://fstoppers.com/originals/demy...eed-sync-68527

    Take note that a lot of the current examples he references are situations where both he and the lighting are close to the subject, and that HSS is limited during some times of day. HSS sync gets more problematic in situations where you are further away and the so is the lighting. He even references use of NDs, but that is also dependent on being pretty close and using more light. As soon as you pull back it starts requiring Nuclear Power Plant levels of lighting energy

    I hope Profoto offers TTL and HSS for Sony … I'm sure TTL will be done eventually, but I'm not sure about HSS.

    Until then I'll soldier on with Leaf Shutter lenses.

    - Marc
    Thanks 2 Member(s) thanked for this post
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •