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Thread: A H6D100 in my Hand

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    A H6D100 in my Hand

    Today I visitited the Exhibition at Calumet Photo in Stuttgart / Germany.
    And: They had it there!

    It is a fine Piece of Camera - I like it. Looks more "modern" than my H3DII-50.

    But sad: The Hassy-Man told me, that it will NOT be possible to upgrade my Lenses - and I have five of them and my Wife heard that... and understood, what that means.

    I was also very disappointed, because the Camera didn`t really work - a Prototype.
    The H6D50 did work, but is not so interesting to me - so i didn`t try it.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    To upgrade to what?
    Sorry, I don't understand.
    Please explain further.
    Eduardo

    Quote Originally Posted by DBF View Post
    Today I visitited the Exhibition at Calumet Photo in Stuttgart / Germany.
    And: They had it there!

    It is a fine Piece of Camera - I like it. Looks more "modern" than my H3DII-50.

    But sad: The Hassy-Man told me, that it will NOT be possible to upgrade my Lenses - and I have five of them and my Wife heard that... and understood, what that means.

    I was also very disappointed, because the Camera didn`t really work - a Prototype.
    The H6D50 did work, but is not so interesting to me - so i didn`t try it.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by DBF View Post
    The Hassy-Man told me, that it will NOT be possible to upgrade my Lenses - and I have five of them and my Wife heard that... and understood, what that means.
    On the other hand, Calumet Munich sent a pdf around titled "Handbuch Vertriebsinformationen H6D" with a FAQ and that part caught my attention:

    ICH BESITZE EINE H5D-50C; WIRD ES EIN FIRMWARE-UPDATE GEBEN, UM AUFNAHMEN MIT EINER BELICHTUNGSZEIT VON 1/2000 SEKUNDEN MACHEN ZU KÖNNEN?
    Dies wird leider nicht möglich sein. Mit der an Ihren Objektiven angebrachten aktualisierten Belichtungseinheit können Sie jedoch mit 1/1000 Sekunde aufnehmen.

    Then follows a table with the possible speeds and under the new speeds (including 1/2000 for the H6D) they list: "Vorhandenes Objektiv mit neuer Verschlusseinheit/ Neues Objektiv".

    I'll attach the table as image:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Uaiomex View Post
    To upgrade to what?
    Sorry, I don't understand.
    Please explain further.
    Eduardo
    To have the 1/2000 sec Shutter Speed.
    The "old" Lenses would do with H6 only 1/1000 sec

    I was told, that the Optics in the new Lenses is still the same
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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by jerome_m View Post
    On the other hand, Calumet Munich sent a pdf around titled "Handbuch Vertriebsinformationen H6D" with a FAQ and that part caught my attention:

    ICH BESITZE EINE H5D-50C; WIRD ES EIN FIRMWARE-UPDATE GEBEN, UM AUFNAHMEN MIT EINER BELICHTUNGSZEIT VON 1/2000 SEKUNDEN MACHEN ZU KÖNNEN?
    Dies wird leider nicht möglich sein. Mit der an Ihren Objektiven angebrachten aktualisierten Belichtungseinheit können Sie jedoch mit 1/1000 Sekunde aufnehmen.

    Then follows a table with the possible speeds and under the new speeds (including 1/2000 for the H6D) they list: "Vorhandenes Objektiv mit neuer Verschlusseinheit/ Neues Objektiv".

    I'll attach the table as image:
    Good to read that!

    I also asked, if it would be possible to use the Back on my Linhof. The Answer was. Not Yet - some necessary Part is not availible Yet, but will be soon.

    Something I don´t understand:
    I asked, at which ISO-Sensitivity a Degrade in Quality would become visible. Hassy-Man said, that ISO 3.200 gives same Quality as ISO 100.
    Next in the Room were the Phase One -People. As I understood, their Back has the same Sensor. And they said, that above ISO 800 a Reduction in Quality would be visible.
    How can that be?

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by DBF View Post
    Today I visitited the Exhibition at Calumet Photo in Stuttgart / Germany.
    And: They had it there!

    It is a fine Piece of Camera - I like it. Looks more "modern" than my H3DII-50.

    But sad: The Hassy-Man told me, that it will NOT be possible to upgrade my Lenses - and I have five of them and my Wife heard that... and understood, what that means.

    I was also very disappointed, because the Camera didn`t really work - a Prototype.
    The H6D50 did work, but is not so interesting to me - so i didn`t try it.
    I am curious how the LCD and Live View on the H6D work compared to the Phase IQ3 100MP backs. Did you have a chance to compare? Thanks.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    You asked a salesman for ISO comparison? Like asking a car salesman which car is better...the one you buy!
    Yes! I would also like to know if by Live View you can touch the screen and it will zoom into that spot to show focus?

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Yeah I wouldn't be asking a sales guy about ISO. There will certainly be a reduction in quality but it's really down to the individual to decide when that happens. The test I have seen show similar quality to the Phase backs but without the need for a black calibration exposure on long exposures.

    Also worth noting that Hasselblad are pretty conservative around quality, in the past I have seen experimental high ISO tests that I would have been happy with quality-wise (if I had no other option) but Hasselblad felt the quality was too low.
    Last edited by Nick-T; 8th April 2016 at 16:29.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    The issue is "at which ISO-Sensitivity a Degrade in Quality would become visible" is a very subjective question. Much more than most people think. I've been asked that question by literally thousands of photographers and my answer, whenever possible, is to just show them relevant raw files and ask them to answer the question instead. I've seen people look at the same raw and say that it's "utterly unusable" and "damn fine".

    For example, you can download ISO ramps done in studio and on location here: Phase One Raw Testing.

    With 100mp of resolution it's really important to consider your output size when evaluating the ISO range. We've made 16" wide prints where ISO 25,600* looks very close to the ISO50 shot even when they are side by side (I know that's a rather outlandish sounding claim; hence why we provide raws for you to do your own prints and comparisons). The reason being the noise/grain structure is basically hidden because it is smaller than the detail in the print. In contrast if you were to print them at native resolution (IQ3 100mp @ 240ppi is 48" wide) you'd see a huge night-and-day difference and the ISO25,600 is not, in my opinion, usable unless you add a bunch of grain and expect/like a very grainy image.

    Because of the above, in our offices we now print ISO ramps in addition to having the raw files available. That way clients can see how a given ISO looks in print at various sizes and not just at 100% on screen.

    The same will, no doubt, be true for evaluating the Hassy 100mp in June or whenever the first deliveries start. Rely on your own hands on testing if possible; the raw files from well-run testing by others if not. Using spec sheets or the verbal description of someone else (even if they are knowledgeable and you trust their motives) won't get you very far.

    *Underexposing ISO12,800 and pushing one stop in C1.
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Yeah I wouldn't be asking a sales guy about ISO. There will certainly be a reduction in quality but it's really down to the individual to decide when that happens. The test I have seen show similar quality to the Phase backs but without the need for a black calibration exposure on long exposures.

    Also worth noting that Hasselblad are pretty conservative around quality, in the past I have seen experimental high ISO tests that I would have been happy with quality-wise (if I had no other option) but Hasselblad felt the quality was too low.
    Hi Nick:
    That's interesting about the new Hassy backs not requiring a black calibration exposure for long exposures. I have a vague memory that the new Phase back allowed you to turn that off as well. Not so?
    The other question I had about the new H6D was about the specs of the LCD. The relatively mediocre quality of LCDs on mfd backs compared to top of the line DSLRs has always surprised me. The LCD on the H6D has a listed resolution of 920k dots. The new Nikon D5 LCD has a listed resolution of 2,359 dots. The new Phase backs have a resolution of 1,150 dots. The "real" resolution of an LCD screen is apparently not a simple matter of comparing dots, so I am curious how the LCD screen on the H6D (and the Live View) compares with the LCD on the Phase backs. I also find it surprising that the LCD on the Nikon would appear to have such a higher resolution. I would have thought that LCD screens are sourced by all of the manufacturers from third parties and Hassy and Phase could simply pick the best of the bunch.
    At some point when I can pull it together, I plan to do a full side-by-side comparison of the H6D 100, the IQ3 100 and my IQ 180 to see for myself how the systems compare in all respects.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Hi Nick:
    That's interesting about the new Hassy backs not requiring a black calibration exposure for long exposures. I have a vague memory that the new Phase back allowed you to turn that off as well. Not so?
    The other question I had about the new H6D was about the specs of the LCD. The relatively mediocre quality of LCDs on mfd backs compared to top of the line DSLRs has always surprised me. The LCD on the H6D has a listed resolution of 920k dots. The new Nikon D5 LCD has a listed resolution of 2,359 dots. The new Phase backs have a resolution of 1,150 dots. The "real" resolution of an LCD screen is apparently not a simple matter of comparing dots, so I am curious how the LCD screen on the H6D (and the Live View) compares with the LCD on the Phase backs. I also find it surprising that the LCD on the Nikon would appear to have such a higher resolution. I would have thought that LCD screens are sourced by all of the manufacturers from third parties and Hassy and Phase could simply pick the best of the bunch.
    At some point when I can pull it together, I plan to do a full side-by-side comparison of the H6D 100, the IQ3 100 and my IQ 180 to see for myself how the systems compare in all respects.
    Can you or anyone else explain a little bit more about the "black calibration exposure" for long exposures? Are you talking about noise reduction? I have not experienced this with my H5D-50C with exposures up to 3 minutes at ISO 100. Also, has there been an improvement in weather sealing? Is the battery and charger the same as with the H5D? Thank you.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Hi Nick:
    That's interesting about the new Hassy backs not requiring a black calibration exposure for long exposures. I have a vague memory that the new Phase back allowed you to turn that off as well. Not so?
    The other question I had about the new H6D was about the specs of the LCD. The relatively mediocre quality of LCDs on mfd backs compared to top of the line DSLRs has always surprised me. The LCD on the H6D has a listed resolution of 920k dots. The new Nikon D5 LCD has a listed resolution of 2,359 dots. The new Phase backs have a resolution of 1,150 dots. The "real" resolution of an LCD screen is apparently not a simple matter of comparing dots, so I am curious how the LCD screen on the H6D (and the Live View) compares with the LCD on the Phase backs. I also find it surprising that the LCD on the Nikon would appear to have such a higher resolution. I would have thought that LCD screens are sourced by all of the manufacturers from third parties and Hassy and Phase could simply pick the best of the bunch.
    At some point when I can pull it together, I plan to do a full side-by-side comparison of the H6D 100, the IQ3 100 and my IQ 180 to see for myself how the systems compare in all respects.
    The H4D and H5D backs also do not require a black frame for long exposures. At least the H4D-40 certainly does not and I think the other models in the H4D and H5D range do not as well. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong. I love shooting long exposures and it's a huge advantage for Hasselblad if shooting long exposures is your thing, and I'm surprised Hasselblad doesn't highlight this in their product literature. I was shooting 45-60sec exposures with my H4D-40 yesterday and it was great to be able to shoot without worrying about lag in between shots for a black frame. Obviously it makes it easier to dial in exposure and you don't have to worry about changing light/losing light during the black frame capture. The advantage of the H6D is they pushed the max exposure to 60 minutes from 30 minutes in the H5D-50c/H5D-50c wifi.

    Regarding high-ISO of course that's a very subjective question. One persons "acceptable" high-ISO shot may be unacceptably degraded to another in terms of quality. .
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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by DBF View Post
    To have the 1/2000 sec Shutter Speed.
    The "old" Lenses would do with H6 only 1/1000 sec

    I was told, that the Optics in the new Lenses is still the same
    I believe I read the old lenses can be updated for $800 ea.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnBrew View Post
    I believe I read the old lenses can be updated for $800 ea.
    I told the Man from Hasselblad, that I have read this in Internet too.
    His answer was: There are many Rumors in Internet - the Lenses can not be upgraded.
    A Statement from official Hasselblad-Side would help.
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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    I don't know anything about the Hasselblad method for dark frame but per several of the reps that frequent this site a Phase back takes a dark frame with all exposures not just long ones. You can disable the dark frame on a Phase back anytime by shooting in aerial mode. CCD or CMOS.

    Paul C

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Hasselblad have never done dark frames.

    The idea is that the camera takes a dark frame at the same shutter speed as the long exposure you have just done. this gives a picture of the noise due to heat build up which can then be calculated out of the image. The disadvantage is that it means a ten minute exposure takes 20 minutes.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Re: Lens upgrades, you will be able to upgrade your existing lenses with the new shutter to get 1/2000 sec with an H6D:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by hcubell View Post
    Hi Nick:
    The relatively mediocre quality of LCDs on mfd backs compared to top of the line DSLRs has always surprised me. The LCD on the H6D has a listed resolution of 920k dots. The new Nikon D5 LCD has a listed resolution of 2,359 dots. The new Phase backs have a resolution of 1,150 dots. The "real" resolution of an LCD screen is apparently not a simple matter of comparing dots, so I am curious how the LCD screen on the H6D (and the Live View) compares with the LCD on the Phase backs.
    Hi Howard
    I don't understand the dot thing either but a guy I know who has a great deal of experience said has compared the IQ3 screen with the H6D screen said:

    "in comparison the display on the H6 seems more detailed and of better contrast and viewing angle" so it sounds like we finally have a decent screen (I agree with you about the crappy quality of previous screens).

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Re: Lens upgrades, you will be able to upgrade your existing lenses with the new shutter to get 1/2000 sec with an H6D:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    This is the same table than the one I posted in German. It comes from a document which appears to originate from Hasselblad for the information of dealers.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Yes I just thought an English one would be good as my German is limited to ordering beer. And yes this is from the document handed out to sales channels.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    The word is Hasselblad designs and makes the shutters themselves in Gothenburg, Sweden. They design almost everything in house including the lenses but outsource some parts manufacturing.

    Straight from Hasselblad: "As any modern company, we have sub-suppliers that manufacture different components based on our engineering competence and specifications. The assembly of our medium format cameras is entirely performed at our headquarters."

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    With respect to ISO, I am sure it is capable of making very nice images at higher ISO, and as Doug said, the size will dictate a lot. One thing I have found as a printer, however, is that despite the claims of cameras to now go to hundreds of thousands of ISO, they universally look better in every way at lower ISO. It is not simply a matter of grain and color noise. There is a color fidelity and crispness to the detail that is lost very quickly, even in the "super high ISO" cameras like the Sony A7S and A7rII. I have both, and I would say that they degrade noticeably almost right away...from around ISO 800 or so. In some comparisons I have preferred my Leica S at 800 or 1600 to the Sony's, because though grainier, it seemed to retain color and detail better. This could be a lens issue as well, but in general, I would be VERY skeptical if someone told me that the ISO of 3200 was undetectably different from ISO 50 or 100. In fact, I would be skeptical if they told me that ISO 800 was undetectably different than base ISO.

    Again, this is not to say that you cannot use these ISO's, as the improvement over older generations is staggering, only that native ISO is native ISO...everything else is worse.
    Last edited by Stuart Richardson; 11th April 2016 at 05:14.
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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Hasselblad have never done dark frames.

    The idea is that the camera takes a dark frame at the same shutter speed as the long exposure you have just done. this gives a picture of the noise due to heat build up which can then be calculated out of the image. The disadvantage is that it means a ten minute exposure takes 20 minutes.
    I've always admired Hasselblad for that policy. Anyone who wants to apply a dark frame can take one in their own time and subtract it in software. Hasselblad hand choice and trust to the photographer: very enlightened.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    I don't know anything about the Hasselblad method for dark frame but per several of the reps that frequent this site a Phase back takes a dark frame with all exposures not just long ones.
    Phase One use the term "black frame" which we all take to mean "dark frame", but which in sensor circles can also mean "bias frame". So when they state that they take one with all exposures, at the fast shutter speeds they are really subtracting a bias frame, since there has not been enough passage of time to accumulate any signficant dark current.

    I mention this because Hasselblad probably also subtract a minimum-exposure bias frame from all their exposures, whether long or short, to remove the offset and reduce pattern noise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul2660 View Post
    You can disable the dark frame on a Phase back anytime by shooting in aerial mode. CCD or CMOS.
    Does that include the P and P+ series? Or only the IQ backs? I was always led to believe that there was no way to disable it in the P+ backs, but it would be fantastic if that was not the case.

    Ray

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    I was told online by a Hasselblad rep (who checked on this) and they will be able to replace the shutter in older lenses and thereby upgrade the old lenses with the new shutter - so this is possible. Attached is a screenshot of the Facebook conversation.

    Cheers, Michael

    Click image for larger version. 

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    Quote Originally Posted by DBF View Post
    Today I visitited the Exhibition at Calumet Photo in Stuttgart / Germany.
    And: They had it there!

    It is a fine Piece of Camera - I like it. Looks more "modern" than my H3DII-50.

    But sad: The Hassy-Man told me, that it will NOT be possible to upgrade my Lenses - and I have five of them and my Wife heard that... and understood, what that means.

    I was also very disappointed, because the Camera didn`t really work - a Prototype.
    The H6D50 did work, but is not so interesting to me - so i didn`t try it.

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    Re: A H6D100 in my Hand

    Awesome! Thanks for confirmation of this info Nick.

    Cheers, Michael

    Quote Originally Posted by Nick-T View Post
    Re: Lens upgrades, you will be able to upgrade your existing lenses with the new shutter to get 1/2000 sec with an H6D:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Screen Shot 2016-04-10 at 7.30.43 am.jpg 
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Size:	232.8 KB 
ID:	117848

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