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Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch, to jump to the 80mp sensors. I shoot with an IQ150 today which I love and don't intend letting go of unless I trade up to a 100mp back. However, the 80mp backs have always enticed me with their superior tonality and colour rendition. Resolution TBH doesn't really matter these days since we're into the bug on stick in the landscape level already. I'll take colour fidelity and robust image quality over new tech stuff.

Thoughts? I'm tempted to look for an IQ180 to supplement my gear.
 

Jamgolf

Member
Very interesting Graham.
A few questions for you:

  • So would getting a IQ180 mean that you would not upgrade to IQ3100?
  • Would you keep your IQ150 if you get an IQ180?
  • You've used both the CCD backs and CMOS backs, yet it sounds like you have an affinity for the CCD 80MP backs. Is there something about IQ150 /CMOS that makes you wish for an IQ180?

Just trying to understand your thought process and curious why you are considering this option in lieu of the 100mp back.
 

DougDolde

Well-known member
I love my IQ180. The IQ140 was good as was the Aputus 75S. But the IQ180 is like an order of magnitude better (seems like anyway)

I am making prints as large as 36x48 with outstanding fine detail
 
So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch,
Hi Graham,

I can assure you 100% that you will definitely still feel itchy if you pick the IQ180. After using the LiveView-friendly and tiling-free CMOS, there is really no going back. The *only* cure is to get the IQ3 100MP! :thumbs:

PS: remember one of your quotes I agree deeply: go for the best stuff straight-away and be done with it - it's the most cost-effective way!
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
Very interesting Graham.
A few questions for you:

  • So would getting a IQ180 mean that you would not upgrade to IQ3100?
  • Would you keep your IQ150 if you get an IQ180?
  • You've used both the CCD backs and CMOS backs, yet it sounds like you have an affinity for the CCD 80MP backs. Is there something about IQ150 /CMOS that makes you wish for an IQ180?

Just trying to understand your thought process and curious why you are considering this option in lieu of the 100mp back.
I LOVE my IQ150 because of CMOS live view. For a tech camera it is, to be honest, a game changer.

I also really appreciate the quality of the 80mp CCD backs. That said, I also like the 100MP CMOS too. For me it would be an economic decision whether to add the super 80mp back for my XF body, and keep the IQ150 for the tech camera, or ditch them all and buy a single CMOS 100mp back. I'm not yet convinced that putting everything into the pot is the right decision yet.

It's like, should I buy the Ferrari 458 Spider or should I keep the RRS Sport Autobiography and buy a Porsche 911, Boxster or Corvette convertible for the sunny weekends? (since this the land of dante)
 
M

mjr

Guest
I can't rationalise throwing all my eggs in one basket at the cost of the 3100, if I keep the tech cam kit then I will buy a 150 to go along with the 260 so I have 2 backs, although what I really want to do is go back to the Leica S! I think having a 180 and 150 would be a perfect combination.

Good luck with what you chose to do.

Mat
 

dchew

Well-known member
Graham,
That sounds like a really good plan. I am upgrading from the 180, but the key difference is I don't have the XF. Or a 150 for that matter! I'm upgrading for features, not image quality.

I think a solid viewfinder with the 180 would be a great combo.

Dave
 

tjv

Active member
The IQ180 is surely brilliant, but what is the difference between trading your IQ150 towards the IQ3100 and paying extra vs. the cost of buying a certified used IQ180 by itself? Besides other things, having a backup back might be a wise option, especially if you don't need high ISO, live view etc. for everything you do. Personally though, either way is a big chunk of cash and if the price is near enough I'd skip the middleman and go for the 100mpx CMOS. That way you'll have absolute consistency across platforms and better DR, etc.

I do wonder though if Leaf will release their own version of the 100mpx back soon, and if so at what price point. That might change things for you?
 

Jamgolf

Member
It's like, should I buy the Ferrari 458 Spider or should I keep the RRS Sport Autobiography and buy a Porsche 911, Boxster or Corvette convertible for the sunny weekends? (since this the land of dante)
Yeah - those are tough choices :)

Advantage of having IQ150 & IQ180 would be that you'd have:
- a backup if one malfunctions
- double the focal lengths in your arsenal - utilizing the crop factor
- CCD loves light so you could decide to use it primarily in good light
- CMOS has better shadows so you could use it when CCD is not a good match
- Could be shooting with two systems at the same time
- Relatively more and cleaner movements/shifts with 80MP back compared to 100MP (on techcam)

Advantages of having one 100MP back.
I think in skiing terms that would be the one ski quiver - a one db quiver.
 
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etrump

Well-known member
Forget the 180, you won't like it for long when the DR and ISO of the newer backs are smoking. The color rendoring of the new backs is much better as well although C1 does a good job bridging the gap with older backs.

Remember the tech is in reality at least 5-6 years old. You will find yourself optimg for the CMOS back more often then not. Trade the IQ150 for a 3100 and get it all and sit on it for 3-4 years. You can even crop to the 150 format if you have some old glass. Maybe rent one for a couple weeks to be sure.

Just my 2 cents.
 

kdphotography

Well-known member
My thoughts are this for you, Graham, who has easily vaulted past most all members here in Dante's Forum in both gear and knowledge/experience (let's face it, your photo gear in the back of your supercharged 500hp Range Rover is the only reason why your 0-60 times exceed ten seconds :ROTFL:).

I've obviously fallen far down in esteemed gear acquisition status here in Dante's Forum as I only have one MFDB. ;) That being said, I did make the jump from the IQ180 to the IQ3 100MP----the major reason being the ability to shoot at higher ISO allows me to more easily balance ambient light and studio lighting on location (for longer periods of time) while the sun sets. And that's using the new Phase XF camera.

I know you could make the IQ180 sing on a tech camera, but the CMOS sensor of your IQ150 is simply what makes things easier, not necessarily better. (Pssst---that hdmi and SmallHD Sidefinder on the IQ3 100MP is really cool!). You mentioned using the IQ180 on the Phase XF----and if that's the plan, go for it. The Phase XF really makes the difference in ease of use, particularly with regard to autofocus. IQ150 on tech; IQ180 on XF.

Then, if at a later time you feel comfortable, you can trade in both IQ150 and IQ180 to the latest and greatest IQ3 CMOS back. The IQ180 retains value simply because it is the highest MP CCD and (tech nerds can scream CMOS all they want) the IQ180 has a proven track record in actual use in creating stunning images. If I didn't need (ok it's want) the ability to more easily balance ambient light with flash, I could have easily stayed with the IQ180 and been quite content. And especially if I were to only photograph landscapes, I could easily have stayed with the IQ180 (both tech cam and XF). No hdmi, but you still have USB3 and the Surface Pro when desired.

Now being the slut I am, you know that life is short, and you deserve the very best Graham. It may be easier to simply bite the bullet and get the IQ3 100MP. Then, convert your IQ150 to full spectrum/IR..... :thumbs:

See you at Pigs in the Southwest 2017. I'm looking forward to seeing your new kits.

ken
 

narikin

New member
Yes, as others say here: go to the IQ3-100. It is not worth suffering the low ISO of IQ180, which is really only operable at 35 or 50asa. 100asa is already too noisy for my work.

However... I would wait till Photokina in September, less than 4 months away. I think we'll see a new IQ back design. Same chips inside, same Mp, but with a new back around it. It's overdue. Or, we may even see a Sony camera with the 100mp sensor inside. Pentax too. Hold off!
 

Pemihan

Well-known member
Anybody using the 3100 on a tech cam with movements yet?
I would really like to see some real life reports on that too.

Graham, any particular reason not going for a 280? I know it's the same chip as the 180 but you get some added features in regards to the XF.

Peter
 

Chipcarterdc

New member
For what it's worth, I'm not a believer in the "CCD color/tonality is better than CMOS." After processing, I've just never seen it borne out to any real degree, either in my Leica 006 v 007 or in my XF100 versus my old P30+ files. I see a much greater difference between image processors (capture one v lightroom), brands (Leica sensors v Phase sensors), lenses, lighting, format (35mm v medium), and ISO.

Changing any one of those variables has a much larger impact on color and tonality than the difference between CCD and CMOS in my experience. I've shot the Leica 006 and the 007 side-by-side with the same lens: they are to my eyes indistinguishable at low ISO when processed via Lightroom. I haven't done the same side by side with the XF100 and a current CCD Phase back, but looking back at my old P30+ files, the advantage clearly goes to the XF100 in color and tonality as well as the obvious areas of resolution and acuity.

So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch, to jump to the 80mp sensors. I shoot with an IQ150 today which I love and don't intend letting go of unless I trade up to a 100mp back. However, the 80mp backs have always enticed me with their superior tonality and colour rendition. Resolution TBH doesn't really matter these days since we're into the bug on stick in the landscape level already. I'll take colour fidelity and robust image quality over new tech stuff.

Thoughts? I'm tempted to look for an IQ180 to supplement my gear.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
I've had them both (Leaf/Credo 50 and IQ180) for about two years. I shot mostly the Leaf on my Alpa and hardly ever looked at or wanted to shoot with the IQ180. As you know, live view really sucks. Its OK if you are using lenses 60mm and shorter but for longer lenses its a crap shoot for dialing in focus. The only real way to accomplish accurate focus was to first focus with my Leaf and then mount the IQ180...... a really big PITA! I no longer have those backs and have moved on to the 100. I also don't shoot with the Alpa any more and have moved on exclusively to an Actus with two rails, two front standards and two bellows. Couldn't be happier...... the only back I miss a tiny bit is the Leaf. I did almost pass on this version as I too knew that a successor would have an updated housing but in the long run it doesn't really matter to me..... and I may have taken a trade in hit for the additional time span. I could care less about Cfast cards and will keep this back until a new chip is available which I believe won't be for some time. My advice?........ You will never regret the new CMOS back..... I don't.

Victor
 

Chipcarterdc

New member
From whence are the various statements regarding an "updated housing" for the IQ series backs coming? This thread is the first I've heard anyone mention that.
 

Jamgolf

Member
Great to hear from actual users of IQ3-100. It appears this digital back is meeting or even exceeding user's expectations.
If I was seeking the answer to the question Graham asked, I'd opt for IQ3-100.
 

vjbelle

Well-known member
From whence are the various statements regarding an "updated housing" for the IQ series backs coming? This thread is the first I've heard anyone mention that.
Its a given..... My dealer was very aware that in the future - maybe near future - there would be an upgrade to the memory and support electronics. I thought about it for awhile but capture speed is the least important enhancement requirement for me. If I were shooting a D5 maybe so but not this beast. Its all about the chip...... My only gripe (my one and only) with this back and all Phase backs is their refusal to put Gorilla glass on the LCD screen..... really cheap at this point in the game. Overall, though, a fabulous accomplishment and works up to my expectations with ALL of my lenses from the mighty distortion free Schneider 35XL to the fabulous sharp as a tack 180mm Digitar.

Victor
 
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Chipcarterdc

New member
Well... Yes, I had always assumed that, like all electronics, there would be upgrades "in the future." Upgrades "in the near future," however, is completely news to me.

Faster capture speeds alone would make no difference to me: fine as it is for my purposes in that regard. Faster capture speed plus some other significant enhancements would be required for me to even look at the hypothetical upgrade. Something like faster image review and zoom (adequate, but not great currently), Gorilla Glass, significantly higher screen resolution (right now, while vastly improved over the P series, its resolution is less than my D800. Or my iPhone.), faster live view, dual memory cards. Etc. And even then, I'd only look at it if there's some massive discount for swapping an existing "version 1" IQ100 back.

Its a given..... My dealer was very aware that in the future - maybe near future - there would be an upgrade to the memory and support electronics. I thought about it for awhile but capture speed is the least important enhancement requirement for me. If I were shooting a D5 maybe so but not this beast. Its all about the chip...... My only gripe (my one and only) with this back and all Phase backs is their refusal to put Gorilla glass on the LCD screen..... really cheap at this point in the game. Overall, though, a fabulous accomplishment and works up to my expectations with ALL of my lenses from the mighty Schneider 35XL to the fabulous 180mm Digitar.

Victor
 
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