Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

[GrahamWelland]

Hi Graham,

I can assure you 100% that you will definitely still feel itchy if you pick the IQ180. After using the LiveView-friendly and tiling-free CMOS, there is really no going back. The *only* cure is to get the IQ3 100MP! :thumbs:

PS: remember one of your quotes I agree deeply: go for the best stuff straight-away and be done with it - it's the most cost-effective way!

Hmm, you remind me of my only real peeve with the IQ260 and that was the tiling. Oh, and crap wifi support.

Given the the rumors of a new electronic tech plus the fact that I have to wait anyway I think that I'll keep an eye on good iq180 deals but ultimately my own quote does ring true that I should just bite the bullet eventually on the CMOS 100mp. A Leaf 100mp would be an interesting option too!

Oh, and btw, im not considering getting a Ferrari (been there, done that, still love and want one again) - it was just a comparative illustration That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it

 

[vjbelle]

I won't be one of the early adopters swapping (and paying) for a new housing and faster flash card capabilities. As for your other wishes they're just not important to me - at least not important enough that it would sway me either way. The image itself won't change and even with a new chip there probably won't be much of a difference between what I have now and the next generation. I was amazed at the images I got out of the Leaf and its measly 50mp.... so much so that I played with canceling the 100 and just staying with what I had. It was the IQ180 that really put me over the edge..... as much as I tried to use it I just couldn't being completely spoiled with the enhancements that CMOS gave me. I was an early adopter of the IQ180 and never considered any of its successive iterations until the 100. I realize that there will be all sorts of speculation about Sony getting into the game and maybe so but for me its all about the lens collection I have that completes my circle. I spent a lot of time with brand new lenses going back to Schneider for alignment but once I got them back they were as good as it gets. Anyone else getting into this foray had better know how to make lenses. Anyway..... I am super pleased and encourage anyone considering this to just pull the trigger.

Victor

 

[vjbelle]

Given the the rumors of a new electronic tech plus the fact that I have to wait anyway I think that I'll keep an eye on good iq180 deals but ultimately my own quote does ring true that I should just bite the bullet eventually on the CMOS 100mp. A Leaf 100mp would be an interesting option too!

Given my experience with CCD and CMOS I wouldn't buy a IQ180.... even if I could get one for ten grand!! Way too much baloney with focusing. I'm completely done with all of that. I tried to focus with Live View with my 120mm and no matter what I was always off. The live view just couldn't resolve enough..... either I was too far or too near. Finally I resolved myself to taking an image - or two or threw - and then tweaking focus and comparing the focus point on the LCD at 100% pixels image to image to finally get fairly accurate focus. Like I said before I'm done with all of that. All of my comments do apply to my Actus as I don't own or want to own an XF. I guess an XF could be calibrated to give fairly accurate focus with an IQ180 and that would mitigate this issue.... but then again I don't trust any auto focus.

Victor

 

[Paul2660]

I am curious if the IQ screen has less resolution than the Nikon D8xx cameras. I find it just the opposite. I feel that the IQ screen to me has a vastly superior view at 100 percent than my Nikons. Nikon still requires me to zoom to 100 percent the back 3 steps to really determine sharp focus. But even then the IQ screen to me is eaiser to view. I don't know the actual res of either screen but it just seems the Phase screen displays the finer details better.

Gorilla glass would be nice for sure. May see that in the next generation.

Paul C

 

[f8orbust]

With the loss of S/K, copal shutters, and the DB technology being geared towards DSLR use, the future doesn’t look as bright as it once did for tech cam users. So, if you shoot on a tech cam, the 180 is probably the best-behaving-when-shifted-highest-MP-back there will ever be. From a $ perspective, simply keeping the IQ150 and picking up a used 180 makes sense; they sell from anywhere in the $10.5k - $13.5k range, i.e. much less than P1 would offer as a trade-in for an IQ150 vs IQ3100.

However, if a DSLR was my main tool, I would certainly look at the IQ3100. Or the Credo 100 (if one ever appears, and that’s a big if), or the H6D. If you have an old >30MP back to trade-in, the HB offering looks relatively good value (probably why all the P30s on eBay are being snapped up). But you can't use the H6D back on an XF of course, due to the P1 camera being closed to 3rd party DBs.

 

[jlm]

Graham: you need the subscription option from phase so you will automatically get the newest gear, for only $xx per month, unfortunately forever:scry:

 

[f8orbust]

As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?

 

[f8orbust]

BTW, from some of the posts in this thread it sounds like since the IQ3100 appeared from over the horizon, the IQ180 has become a piece of junk - poor color, limited DR, noise, unworkable ISO, doesn't smell new any more etc.

If you're suffering with one, please send it my way - I'll gladly take on the pain and misery of shooting with it.

Happy to pay for shipping.

 

[Christopher]

As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?

It is fine. However, I have the feeling that the hardware is the same as 6 years ago. It could be a LOT faster doing everything. Live view while great is still a little on the slow side same goes for preview and review stuff.

Don't get me wrong. It all works great. Just compared to my Iq180 everything got slower not faster.

 

[Christopher]

Let's get a few things right. The IQ180 is still a great back. Still works still makes great images. The dynamic range still is the same already lost years ago against modern CMOS (d800)

However, I currently shoot both a Iq180 and a 3100. The new one is amazing. But my IQ180 still produces amazing shots and works fantastic on my Arca Swiss. I never had and still don't have ANY problems nailing focus on the Arca with the iq180.

Does it taker a tad longer ? Yes, but only a few seconds. Do I use live view on the iq180? What live view ? That crap feature called live view was then crap and still is. Haven't used it would use it. 10 times faster to just get focus roughly right shoot 2-3 frames wide open and adjust focus after each one. Never takes me more than 4-5 images to get it right.

Finally back to topic:

What would I do? It's a hard one. I think the problem is the IQ3100. If you had one I would never want to go back to a 50 and not to a 80 back. As long as I did not have one the iq180 and iq350 were amazing as well.

In the end the question comes down to this:

How often to you use two cameras at once / need a backup ? The second part for me is simple. I don't need one. A Nikon or canon system will do as well as backup. The first part is so personal only you can answer it. For me it is often enough that I love being able to shoot with my Arca and XF at the same time with two different focal lengths. This is however, luxury, one could do that a cheaper way as well.

Hope this helps a bit.

BTW, from some of the posts in this thread it sounds like since the IQ3100 appeared from over the horizon, the IQ180 has become a piece of junk - poor color, limited DR, noise, unworkable ISO, doesn't smell new any more etc.

If you're suffering with one, please send it my way - I'll gladly take on the pain and misery of shooting with it.

Happy to pay for shipping.

 

[f8orbust]

OT: Just out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the IQ280 and IQ260 ?

Looking at the P1 website (or should that be the P! website, given the pricing), the IQ1 series is still there - bundled with an XF as the 'XF IQ1 Camera System' and (of course) the IQ3 series. But, no sign of the IQ2 series (other than the achromatic). You'd have thought this would be bundled with the XF, and the (older) IQ1 series dropped. Maybe not enough daylight between the IQ2 and IQ3 (CCD) series ?

Since it sounds like the IQ3100 is the DB everyone is now lusting after - you have to wonder who, if anyone, is looking to buy a new IQ180 or IQ380 ?

 

[Paul2660]

The 2x line were replaced with the 3x. Phase is continuing to support the 2x CCD backs, with firmware updates etc. and so far keeping all the same XF features that the 3X line has, but I don't believe they are still being made (why would they?). There were the same price I believe across the line.

Paul C

 

[GrahamWelland]

Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?

Well, having used the iq3 100 briefly with hdmi I'd say that having the hdmi port behind the cf card door is a pretty significant failing. Other than that, I have very little to complain about tbh.

Let's get a few things right. The IQ180 is still a great back. Still works still makes great images.

My thoughts entirely. Reports of its quality demise are surely exaggerated! Like Chris I'd be primarily interested in using it only on my XF. It wouldn't really be a usable choice on my Actus DB.

 

[dchew]

Anybody using the 3100 on a tech cam with movements yet?

I'm not using it on a regular basis yet, but I did demo the 3100 and compared it to my 180 with the following lenses: 40hr, 60xl, 90 hrsw, sk150. My test included shifts on them all, but I don't shift the 40hr very often.

Although the color cast looked different, I did not think one was worse than the other. When the 180 was first released there was significant discussion about it being worse than the 160 on color cast when shifted, which it was. The 60mp backs are still the best for those concerned with shifting limitations. I think the 180 and the 3100 are about the same in that regard.

Dave

 

[danlindberg]

I would go 100mp cmos and use one back.

I still have my Aptus II 5 but that is only because it is a far better back than its value suggests, otherwise I am a 'one back guy'.

I have in the past needed movements in just about every image with my architectural assignments, thus my Credo 60 has been fantastic and even if it is old tech today it seems still the best back for this application.
My work today is more landscape oriented and even if I love shift capabilities I can get away with much less.

A 100mp on the FPS and zeroed tech lenses would be brilliant.

Mixing your cmos cropped sensor with a full sensor ccd....I don't know...., no I'd go 100mp...

 

[torger]

I'd say the IQ3 100MP is a bit worse than the IQ180 concerning movements if you measure it, but in practice the huge DR of the IQ3 100MP masks the problems a bit of it so they're probably quite similar. If you're not worried about tonality you can apply plenty movements.

The Rodenstocks are designed with the Dalsa 6um, ie 60MP backs, as their limit. With those you can move around anywhere in the image circle and get predictable performance. With the exception of tiling and microlens ripple, which fortunately in most cases is cleaned up well after C1's LCC algorithm, or my own I made for Lumariver HDR. I don't think Phocus is as good at it, so if one would be using a H4D-60 there would be more problems.

With the 80MP you get a bit past the limit, meaning crosstalk (mixing of the color channels) so you need to start compromising either with movements or with tonality, same with the 100MP. On the other hand, few if any will notice.

If you're only going to shoot center frames I'd drop the tech cam and go for an SLR like the XF. Even with center frames the widest do suffer some slight tonality issues and I'd choose rock-solid tonality over slight pixel peep sharpness any day, with the added bonus no LCC needed.

For me tech cams is movements, resolving power is secondary. The moment I stop using movements I stop using tech cams. Although I certainly agree that movements is more needed in architecture than in landscape, it does depend on your shooting style. I quite often apply up to 15mm movements with my SK47XL for landscape shots. Sure I can tilt the camera more and it doesn't look outright wrong like leaning buildings, but that extra subtle "large format style" strictness in perspective is a key aspect of what makes images from tech cameras special if you ask me. Distortion-free lenses also add to that strictness I desire, so no surprise I've stayed at the 50MP Kodak with symmetric Digitars.

Unfortunately the later gear is only a transportation towards the inevitable endpoint -- shooting center frames only.

I'm a dinosaur using a dinosaur camera though, I know that. Consider what serves your personal shooting style the best, and carefully consider which aspects of performance that are important to you. For example if you choose an 80MP over a 60MP for the sake of tonality, consider that if you apply movements that 80MP sensor will at some point get worse tonality than the 60MP.

 

[fotohouse]

Have you came to a decision about the upgrade?

 

[GrahamWelland]

Have you came to a decision about the upgrade?

Sitting on the fence until my discretionary camera fund is replenished :chug:

 

[subrata1965]

Sitting on the fence until my discretionary camera fund is replenished :chug:

What happened to your Platinum Credit Card?

 

[GrahamWelland]

What happened to your Platinum Credit Card?

Oh NO ... Not ever. I only buy this stuff with cash (or on the Amex when funds arrive in 30 days!)