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Thread: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch, to jump to the 80mp sensors. I shoot with an IQ150 today which I love and don't intend letting go of unless I trade up to a 100mp back. However, the 80mp backs have always enticed me with their superior tonality and colour rendition. Resolution TBH doesn't really matter these days since we're into the bug on stick in the landscape level already. I'll take colour fidelity and robust image quality over new tech stuff.

    Thoughts? I'm tempted to look for an IQ180 to supplement my gear.
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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Very interesting Graham.
    A few questions for you:

    • So would getting a IQ180 mean that you would not upgrade to IQ3100?
    • Would you keep your IQ150 if you get an IQ180?
    • You've used both the CCD backs and CMOS backs, yet it sounds like you have an affinity for the CCD 80MP backs. Is there something about IQ150 /CMOS that makes you wish for an IQ180?


    Just trying to understand your thought process and curious why you are considering this option in lieu of the 100mp back.
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I love my IQ180. The IQ140 was good as was the Aputus 75S. But the IQ180 is like an order of magnitude better (seems like anyway)

    I am making prints as large as 36x48 with outstanding fine detail

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch,
    Hi Graham,

    I can assure you 100% that you will definitely still feel itchy if you pick the IQ180. After using the LiveView-friendly and tiling-free CMOS, there is really no going back. The *only* cure is to get the IQ3 100MP!

    PS: remember one of your quotes I agree deeply: go for the best stuff straight-away and be done with it - it's the most cost-effective way!
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jamgolf View Post
    Very interesting Graham.
    A few questions for you:

    • So would getting a IQ180 mean that you would not upgrade to IQ3100?
    • Would you keep your IQ150 if you get an IQ180?
    • You've used both the CCD backs and CMOS backs, yet it sounds like you have an affinity for the CCD 80MP backs. Is there something about IQ150 /CMOS that makes you wish for an IQ180?


    Just trying to understand your thought process and curious why you are considering this option in lieu of the 100mp back.
    I LOVE my IQ150 because of CMOS live view. For a tech camera it is, to be honest, a game changer.

    I also really appreciate the quality of the 80mp CCD backs. That said, I also like the 100MP CMOS too. For me it would be an economic decision whether to add the super 80mp back for my XF body, and keep the IQ150 for the tech camera, or ditch them all and buy a single CMOS 100mp back. I'm not yet convinced that putting everything into the pot is the right decision yet.

    It's like, should I buy the Ferrari 458 Spider or should I keep the RRS Sport Autobiography and buy a Porsche 911, Boxster or Corvette convertible for the sunny weekends? (since this the land of dante)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I can't rationalise throwing all my eggs in one basket at the cost of the 3100, if I keep the tech cam kit then I will buy a 150 to go along with the 260 so I have 2 backs, although what I really want to do is go back to the Leica S! I think having a 180 and 150 would be a perfect combination.

    Good luck with what you chose to do.

    Mat

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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Graham,
    That sounds like a really good plan. I am upgrading from the 180, but the key difference is I don't have the XF. Or a 150 for that matter! I'm upgrading for features, not image quality.

    I think a solid viewfinder with the 180 would be a great combo.

    Dave
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    The IQ180 is surely brilliant, but what is the difference between trading your IQ150 towards the IQ3100 and paying extra vs. the cost of buying a certified used IQ180 by itself? Besides other things, having a backup back might be a wise option, especially if you don't need high ISO, live view etc. for everything you do. Personally though, either way is a big chunk of cash and if the price is near enough I'd skip the middleman and go for the 100mpx CMOS. That way you'll have absolute consistency across platforms and better DR, etc.

    I do wonder though if Leaf will release their own version of the 100mpx back soon, and if so at what price point. That might change things for you?

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    It's like, should I buy the Ferrari 458 Spider or should I keep the RRS Sport Autobiography and buy a Porsche 911, Boxster or Corvette convertible for the sunny weekends? (since this the land of dante)
    Yeah - those are tough choices

    Advantage of having IQ150 & IQ180 would be that you'd have:
    - a backup if one malfunctions
    - double the focal lengths in your arsenal - utilizing the crop factor
    - CCD loves light so you could decide to use it primarily in good light
    - CMOS has better shadows so you could use it when CCD is not a good match
    - Could be shooting with two systems at the same time
    - Relatively more and cleaner movements/shifts with 80MP back compared to 100MP (on techcam)

    Advantages of having one 100MP back.
    I think in skiing terms that would be the one ski quiver - a one db quiver.
    Last edited by Jamgolf; 17th May 2016 at 06:04.
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    Senior Member etrump's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Forget the 180, you won't like it for long when the DR and ISO of the newer backs are smoking. The color rendoring of the new backs is much better as well although C1 does a good job bridging the gap with older backs.

    Remember the tech is in reality at least 5-6 years old. You will find yourself optimg for the CMOS back more often then not. Trade the IQ150 for a 3100 and get it all and sit on it for 3-4 years. You can even crop to the 150 format if you have some old glass. Maybe rent one for a couple weeks to be sure.

    Just my 2 cents.
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    My thoughts are this for you, Graham, who has easily vaulted past most all members here in Dante's Forum in both gear and knowledge/experience (let's face it, your photo gear in the back of your supercharged 500hp Range Rover is the only reason why your 0-60 times exceed ten seconds ).

    I've obviously fallen far down in esteemed gear acquisition status here in Dante's Forum as I only have one MFDB. That being said, I did make the jump from the IQ180 to the IQ3 100MP----the major reason being the ability to shoot at higher ISO allows me to more easily balance ambient light and studio lighting on location (for longer periods of time) while the sun sets. And that's using the new Phase XF camera.

    I know you could make the IQ180 sing on a tech camera, but the CMOS sensor of your IQ150 is simply what makes things easier, not necessarily better. (Pssst---that hdmi and SmallHD Sidefinder on the IQ3 100MP is really cool!). You mentioned using the IQ180 on the Phase XF----and if that's the plan, go for it. The Phase XF really makes the difference in ease of use, particularly with regard to autofocus. IQ150 on tech; IQ180 on XF.

    Then, if at a later time you feel comfortable, you can trade in both IQ150 and IQ180 to the latest and greatest IQ3 CMOS back. The IQ180 retains value simply because it is the highest MP CCD and (tech nerds can scream CMOS all they want) the IQ180 has a proven track record in actual use in creating stunning images. If I didn't need (ok it's want) the ability to more easily balance ambient light with flash, I could have easily stayed with the IQ180 and been quite content. And especially if I were to only photograph landscapes, I could easily have stayed with the IQ180 (both tech cam and XF). No hdmi, but you still have USB3 and the Surface Pro when desired.

    Now being the slut I am, you know that life is short, and you deserve the very best Graham. It may be easier to simply bite the bullet and get the IQ3 100MP. Then, convert your IQ150 to full spectrum/IR.....

    See you at Pigs in the Southwest 2017. I'm looking forward to seeing your new kits.

    ken

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Yes, as others say here: go to the IQ3-100. It is not worth suffering the low ISO of IQ180, which is really only operable at 35 or 50asa. 100asa is already too noisy for my work.

    However... I would wait till Photokina in September, less than 4 months away. I think we'll see a new IQ back design. Same chips inside, same Mp, but with a new back around it. It's overdue. Or, we may even see a Sony camera with the 100mp sensor inside. Pentax too. Hold off!

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Anybody using the 3100 on a tech cam with movements yet?

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Anybody using the 3100 on a tech cam with movements yet?
    I would really like to see some real life reports on that too.

    Graham, any particular reason not going for a 280? I know it's the same chip as the 180 but you get some added features in regards to the XF.

    Peter
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    For what it's worth, I'm not a believer in the "CCD color/tonality is better than CMOS." After processing, I've just never seen it borne out to any real degree, either in my Leica 006 v 007 or in my XF100 versus my old P30+ files. I see a much greater difference between image processors (capture one v lightroom), brands (Leica sensors v Phase sensors), lenses, lighting, format (35mm v medium), and ISO.

    Changing any one of those variables has a much larger impact on color and tonality than the difference between CCD and CMOS in my experience. I've shot the Leica 006 and the 007 side-by-side with the same lens: they are to my eyes indistinguishable at low ISO when processed via Lightroom. I haven't done the same side by side with the XF100 and a current CCD Phase back, but looking back at my old P30+ files, the advantage clearly goes to the XF100 in color and tonality as well as the obvious areas of resolution and acuity.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    So, I'm feeling an itch, actually a very long term itch, to jump to the 80mp sensors. I shoot with an IQ150 today which I love and don't intend letting go of unless I trade up to a 100mp back. However, the 80mp backs have always enticed me with their superior tonality and colour rendition. Resolution TBH doesn't really matter these days since we're into the bug on stick in the landscape level already. I'll take colour fidelity and robust image quality over new tech stuff.

    Thoughts? I'm tempted to look for an IQ180 to supplement my gear.

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I've had them both (Leaf/Credo 50 and IQ180) for about two years. I shot mostly the Leaf on my Alpa and hardly ever looked at or wanted to shoot with the IQ180. As you know, live view really sucks. Its OK if you are using lenses 60mm and shorter but for longer lenses its a crap shoot for dialing in focus. The only real way to accomplish accurate focus was to first focus with my Leaf and then mount the IQ180...... a really big PITA! I no longer have those backs and have moved on to the 100. I also don't shoot with the Alpa any more and have moved on exclusively to an Actus with two rails, two front standards and two bellows. Couldn't be happier...... the only back I miss a tiny bit is the Leaf. I did almost pass on this version as I too knew that a successor would have an updated housing but in the long run it doesn't really matter to me..... and I may have taken a trade in hit for the additional time span. I could care less about Cfast cards and will keep this back until a new chip is available which I believe won't be for some time. My advice?........ You will never regret the new CMOS back..... I don't.

    Victor
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    From whence are the various statements regarding an "updated housing" for the IQ series backs coming? This thread is the first I've heard anyone mention that.

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    Senior Member Jamgolf's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Great to hear from actual users of IQ3-100. It appears this digital back is meeting or even exceeding user's expectations.
    If I was seeking the answer to the question Graham asked, I'd opt for IQ3-100.
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chipcarterdc View Post
    From whence are the various statements regarding an "updated housing" for the IQ series backs coming? This thread is the first I've heard anyone mention that.
    Its a given..... My dealer was very aware that in the future - maybe near future - there would be an upgrade to the memory and support electronics. I thought about it for awhile but capture speed is the least important enhancement requirement for me. If I were shooting a D5 maybe so but not this beast. Its all about the chip...... My only gripe (my one and only) with this back and all Phase backs is their refusal to put Gorilla glass on the LCD screen..... really cheap at this point in the game. Overall, though, a fabulous accomplishment and works up to my expectations with ALL of my lenses from the mighty distortion free Schneider 35XL to the fabulous sharp as a tack 180mm Digitar.

    Victor
    Last edited by vjbelle; 17th May 2016 at 12:15.

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Well... Yes, I had always assumed that, like all electronics, there would be upgrades "in the future." Upgrades "in the near future," however, is completely news to me.

    Faster capture speeds alone would make no difference to me: fine as it is for my purposes in that regard. Faster capture speed plus some other significant enhancements would be required for me to even look at the hypothetical upgrade. Something like faster image review and zoom (adequate, but not great currently), Gorilla Glass, significantly higher screen resolution (right now, while vastly improved over the P series, its resolution is less than my D800. Or my iPhone.), faster live view, dual memory cards. Etc. And even then, I'd only look at it if there's some massive discount for swapping an existing "version 1" IQ100 back.

    Quote Originally Posted by vjbelle View Post
    Its a given..... My dealer was very aware that in the future - maybe near future - there would be an upgrade to the memory and support electronics. I thought about it for awhile but capture speed is the least important enhancement requirement for me. If I were shooting a D5 maybe so but not this beast. Its all about the chip...... My only gripe (my one and only) with this back and all Phase backs is their refusal to put Gorilla glass on the LCD screen..... really cheap at this point in the game. Overall, though, a fabulous accomplishment and works up to my expectations with ALL of my lenses from the mighty Schneider 35XL to the fabulous 180mm Digitar.

    Victor

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by voidshatter View Post
    Hi Graham,

    I can assure you 100% that you will definitely still feel itchy if you pick the IQ180. After using the LiveView-friendly and tiling-free CMOS, there is really no going back. The *only* cure is to get the IQ3 100MP!

    PS: remember one of your quotes I agree deeply: go for the best stuff straight-away and be done with it - it's the most cost-effective way!
    Hmm, you remind me of my only real peeve with the IQ260 and that was the tiling. Oh, and crap wifi support.

    Given the the rumors of a new electronic tech plus the fact that I have to wait anyway I think that I'll keep an eye on good iq180 deals but ultimately my own quote does ring true that I should just bite the bullet eventually on the CMOS 100mp. A Leaf 100mp would be an interesting option too!

    Oh, and btw, im not considering getting a Ferrari (been there, done that, still love and want one again) - it was just a comparative illustration That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I won't be one of the early adopters swapping (and paying) for a new housing and faster flash card capabilities. As for your other wishes they're just not important to me - at least not important enough that it would sway me either way. The image itself won't change and even with a new chip there probably won't be much of a difference between what I have now and the next generation. I was amazed at the images I got out of the Leaf and its measly 50mp.... so much so that I played with canceling the 100 and just staying with what I had. It was the IQ180 that really put me over the edge..... as much as I tried to use it I just couldn't being completely spoiled with the enhancements that CMOS gave me. I was an early adopter of the IQ180 and never considered any of its successive iterations until the 100. I realize that there will be all sorts of speculation about Sony getting into the game and maybe so but for me its all about the lens collection I have that completes my circle. I spent a lot of time with brand new lenses going back to Schneider for alignment but once I got them back they were as good as it gets. Anyone else getting into this foray had better know how to make lenses. Anyway..... I am super pleased and encourage anyone considering this to just pull the trigger.

    Victor

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Given the the rumors of a new electronic tech plus the fact that I have to wait anyway I think that I'll keep an eye on good iq180 deals but ultimately my own quote does ring true that I should just bite the bullet eventually on the CMOS 100mp. A Leaf 100mp would be an interesting option too!
    Given my experience with CCD and CMOS I wouldn't buy a IQ180.... even if I could get one for ten grand!! Way too much baloney with focusing. I'm completely done with all of that. I tried to focus with Live View with my 120mm and no matter what I was always off. The live view just couldn't resolve enough..... either I was too far or too near. Finally I resolved myself to taking an image - or two or threw - and then tweaking focus and comparing the focus point on the LCD at 100% pixels image to image to finally get fairly accurate focus. Like I said before I'm done with all of that. All of my comments do apply to my Actus as I don't own or want to own an XF. I guess an XF could be calibrated to give fairly accurate focus with an IQ180 and that would mitigate this issue.... but then again I don't trust any auto focus.

    Victor

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I am curious if the IQ screen has less resolution than the Nikon D8xx cameras. I find it just the opposite. I feel that the IQ screen to me has a vastly superior view at 100 percent than my Nikons. Nikon still requires me to zoom to 100 percent the back 3 steps to really determine sharp focus. But even then the IQ screen to me is eaiser to view. I don't know the actual res of either screen but it just seems the Phase screen displays the finer details better.

    Gorilla glass would be nice for sure. May see that in the next generation.

    Paul C

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    With the loss of S/K, copal shutters, and the DB technology being geared towards DSLR use, the future doesn’t look as bright as it once did for tech cam users. So, if you shoot on a tech cam, the 180 is probably the best-behaving-when-shifted-highest-MP-back there will ever be. From a $ perspective, simply keeping the IQ150 and picking up a used 180 makes sense; they sell from anywhere in the $10.5k - $13.5k range, i.e. much less than P1 would offer as a trade-in for an IQ150 vs IQ3100.

    However, if a DSLR was my main tool, I would certainly look at the IQ3100. Or the Credo 100 (if one ever appears, and that’s a big if), or the H6D. If you have an old >30MP back to trade-in, the HB offering looks relatively good value (probably why all the P30s on eBay are being snapped up). But you can't use the H6D back on an XF of course, due to the P1 camera being closed to 3rd party DBs.

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Graham: you need the subscription option from phase so you will automatically get the newest gear, for only $xx per month, unfortunately forever
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    BTW, from some of the posts in this thread it sounds like since the IQ3100 appeared from over the horizon, the IQ180 has become a piece of junk - poor color, limited DR, noise, unworkable ISO, doesn't smell new any more etc.

    If you're suffering with one, please send it my way - I'll gladly take on the pain and misery of shooting with it.

    Happy to pay for shipping.
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?
    It is fine. However, I have the feeling that the hardware is the same as 6 years ago. It could be a LOT faster doing everything. Live view while great is still a little on the slow side same goes for preview and review stuff.

    Don't get me wrong. It all works great. Just compared to my Iq180 everything got slower not faster.

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Let's get a few things right. The IQ180 is still a great back. Still works still makes great images. The dynamic range still is the same already lost years ago against modern CMOS (d800)

    However, I currently shoot both a Iq180 and a 3100. The new one is amazing. But my IQ180 still produces amazing shots and works fantastic on my Arca Swiss. I never had and still don't have ANY problems nailing focus on the Arca with the iq180.

    Does it taker a tad longer ? Yes, but only a few seconds. Do I use live view on the iq180? What live view ? That crap feature called live view was then crap and still is. Haven't used it would use it. 10 times faster to just get focus roughly right shoot 2-3 frames wide open and adjust focus after each one. Never takes me more than 4-5 images to get it right.

    Finally back to topic:

    What would I do? It's a hard one. I think the problem is the IQ3100. If you had one I would never want to go back to a 50 and not to a 80 back. As long as I did not have one the iq180 and iq350 were amazing as well.

    In the end the question comes down to this:

    How often to you use two cameras at once / need a backup ? The second part for me is simple. I don't need one. A Nikon or canon system will do as well as backup. The first part is so personal only you can answer it. For me it is often enough that I love being able to shoot with my Arca and XF at the same time with two different focal lengths. This is however, luxury, one could do that a cheaper way as well.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    BTW, from some of the posts in this thread it sounds like since the IQ3100 appeared from over the horizon, the IQ180 has become a piece of junk - poor color, limited DR, noise, unworkable ISO, doesn't smell new any more etc.

    If you're suffering with one, please send it my way - I'll gladly take on the pain and misery of shooting with it.

    Happy to pay for shipping.
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    OT: Just out of interest, does anyone know what happened to the IQ280 and IQ260 ?

    Looking at the P1 website (or should that be the P! website, given the pricing), the IQ1 series is still there - bundled with an XF as the 'XF IQ1 Camera System' and (of course) the IQ3 series. But, no sign of the IQ2 series (other than the achromatic). You'd have thought this would be bundled with the XF, and the (older) IQ1 series dropped. Maybe not enough daylight between the IQ2 and IQ3 (CCD) series ?

    Since it sounds like the IQ3100 is the DB everyone is now lusting after - you have to wonder who, if anyone, is looking to buy a new IQ180 or IQ380 ?

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    The 2x line were replaced with the 3x. Phase is continuing to support the 2x CCD backs, with firmware updates etc. and so far keeping all the same XF features that the 3X line has, but I don't believe they are still being made (why would they?). There were the same price I believe across the line.

    Paul C

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by f8orbust View Post
    As far as a redesign of the IQ case - P1 are a conservative company, so I just don’t see it; people rightly complained about the screen on the P/P+ series (even though it was the demosaicing that was the problem), and the lack of USB, but the ergonomics were fine. I haven’t heard anyone make any significant complaints about the IQ housing. I mean, what’s not to like about it ?
    Well, having used the iq3 100 briefly with hdmi I'd say that having the hdmi port behind the cf card door is a pretty significant failing. Other than that, I have very little to complain about tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher View Post
    Let's get a few things right. The IQ180 is still a great back. Still works still makes great images.
    My thoughts entirely. Reports of its quality demise are surely exaggerated! Like Chris I'd be primarily interested in using it only on my XF. It wouldn't really be a usable choice on my Actus DB.
    Last edited by GrahamWelland; 17th May 2016 at 19:26.
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by jlm View Post
    Anybody using the 3100 on a tech cam with movements yet?
    I'm not using it on a regular basis yet, but I did demo the 3100 and compared it to my 180 with the following lenses: 40hr, 60xl, 90 hrsw, sk150. My test included shifts on them all, but I don't shift the 40hr very often.

    Although the color cast looked different, I did not think one was worse than the other. When the 180 was first released there was significant discussion about it being worse than the 160 on color cast when shifted, which it was. The 60mp backs are still the best for those concerned with shifting limitations. I think the 180 and the 3100 are about the same in that regard.

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I would go 100mp cmos and use one back.

    I still have my Aptus II 5 but that is only because it is a far better back than its value suggests, otherwise I am a 'one back guy'.

    I have in the past needed movements in just about every image with my architectural assignments, thus my Credo 60 has been fantastic and even if it is old tech today it seems still the best back for this application.
    My work today is more landscape oriented and even if I love shift capabilities I can get away with much less.

    A 100mp on the FPS and zeroed tech lenses would be brilliant.

    Mixing your cmos cropped sensor with a full sensor ccd....I don't know...., no I'd go 100mp...
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    I'd say the IQ3 100MP is a bit worse than the IQ180 concerning movements if you measure it, but in practice the huge DR of the IQ3 100MP masks the problems a bit of it so they're probably quite similar. If you're not worried about tonality you can apply plenty movements.

    The Rodenstocks are designed with the Dalsa 6um, ie 60MP backs, as their limit. With those you can move around anywhere in the image circle and get predictable performance. With the exception of tiling and microlens ripple, which fortunately in most cases is cleaned up well after C1's LCC algorithm, or my own I made for Lumariver HDR. I don't think Phocus is as good at it, so if one would be using a H4D-60 there would be more problems.

    With the 80MP you get a bit past the limit, meaning crosstalk (mixing of the color channels) so you need to start compromising either with movements or with tonality, same with the 100MP. On the other hand, few if any will notice.

    If you're only going to shoot center frames I'd drop the tech cam and go for an SLR like the XF. Even with center frames the widest do suffer some slight tonality issues and I'd choose rock-solid tonality over slight pixel peep sharpness any day, with the added bonus no LCC needed.

    For me tech cams is movements, resolving power is secondary. The moment I stop using movements I stop using tech cams. Although I certainly agree that movements is more needed in architecture than in landscape, it does depend on your shooting style. I quite often apply up to 15mm movements with my SK47XL for landscape shots. Sure I can tilt the camera more and it doesn't look outright wrong like leaning buildings, but that extra subtle "large format style" strictness in perspective is a key aspect of what makes images from tech cameras special if you ask me. Distortion-free lenses also add to that strictness I desire, so no surprise I've stayed at the 50MP Kodak with symmetric Digitars.

    Unfortunately the later gear is only a transportation towards the inevitable endpoint -- shooting center frames only.

    I'm a dinosaur using a dinosaur camera though, I know that. Consider what serves your personal shooting style the best, and carefully consider which aspects of performance that are important to you. For example if you choose an 80MP over a 60MP for the sake of tonality, consider that if you apply movements that 80MP sensor will at some point get worse tonality than the 60MP.
    Last edited by torger; 18th May 2016 at 01:06.
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Have you came to a decision about the upgrade?

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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by fotohouse View Post
    Have you came to a decision about the upgrade?
    Sitting on the fence until my discretionary camera fund is replenished
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrahamWelland View Post
    Sitting on the fence until my discretionary camera fund is replenished
    What happened to your Platinum Credit Card?

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    Subscriber & Workshop Member GrahamWelland's Avatar
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    Re: Upgrade Options for MF DB's. IQ180 vs the latest & greatest CMOS.

    Quote Originally Posted by subrata1965 View Post
    What happened to your Platinum Credit Card?
    Oh NO ... Not ever. I only buy this stuff with cash (or on the Amex when funds arrive in 30 days!)
    Remember: adventure before dementia!

    As Oscar Wilde said, "my tastes are simple, I only like the best"
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