Site Sponsors
Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    87
    Post Thanks / Like

    Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Going to do another demo of the Phase One XF this weekend after having about 50% of my shots in focus last time with the autofocus. This time the lenses will be calibrated and a new focus screen will be installed so I can see how large the autofocus points really are.

    Before the demo I have a couple of questions for you who own Phase One XF:

    - Last time I tested the XF, there was a noticeable delay after pressing the shutter. It was as if the mirror went up and then a pretty long delay before the shutter decided to move. Either my mind was playing tricks with me, or this delay was a bit different from time to time. Is there a setting somewhere to shorten the shutter lag / delay?

    - As I understand it, shutter speed for leaf shutter is 1/800, and then there's some electronic trickery to get 1/1600 sync speed. Does this mean freezing ambient is not actually 1/1600 but instead 1/800?

  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Miami FL USA
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Going to do another demo of the Phase One XF this weekend after having about 50% of my shots in focus last time with the autofocus. This time the lenses will be calibrated and a new focus screen will be installed so I can see how large the autofocus points really are.

    Before the demo I have a couple of questions for you who own Phase One XF:

    - Last time I tested the XF, there was a noticeable delay after pressing the shutter. It was as if the mirror went up and then a pretty long delay before the shutter decided to move. Either my mind was playing tricks with me, or this delay was a bit different from time to time. Is there a setting somewhere to shorten the shutter lag / delay?

    - As I understand it, shutter speed for leaf shutter is 1/800, and then there's some electronic trickery to get 1/1600 sync speed. Does this mean freezing ambient is not actually 1/1600 but instead 1/800?
    Hi Drake,

    I use my XF on 99 percent of my professional and personal work. I have not had any focus / shutter lag issues. Here are a few thoughts on camera techniques in which you may find helpful.


    1. Don't forget to adjust the diopter on the eyepiece for your vision.


    2. Keep an eye on the shutter speed. It you use the too slow of a shutter speed while handholding, you will get blurry images due to camera shake. A good rule of thumb is to use twice the focal length of the lens as a shutter speed when handholding. I. E. an 80mm at 1/160 shutter.

    (A) If you keep your elbows "in" and "cup" the lens from below you can also reduce camera shake.

    (B) Separate your feet / stance a bit. (It's not just lights, subject or camera. Proper body position is also important) I know it sounds rather simplistic, but can make a big difference when shooting under pressure when you only get one shot at capturing the perfect moment.

    (C) If you want to go "rogue" and use a very slow shutter speed while handholding. (As I often do....) Lean against a wall or brace the camera on a rail and don't hold your breath, squeeze the shutter after exhaling.


    3. It maybe helpful to have someone on the phone if you are not sure of the modes of the XF. There are all kinda custom functions for setting a desired amount of shutter delay/ mirror up / Auto bracketing. On the camera function screen (camera grip) you can swipe to a screen that only displays the bare essentials. I.E. shutter speed/aperture. That maybe a good place for you to start.


    4. I have not experienced any "electronic shutter lag". Ask the person who is giving you the camera to demo to make sure the camera's firmware is up to date, the camera/digital back batteries are the latest 34oomh ones, have them clearly explain the difference on using the camera mode of "continuous" (C) or "single" (S). Its also good practice to use the fastest compact digital cards in the digital back.


    5. Leaf shutters (for MF cameras ) are made of metal and inside the lens. Leaf shutter technology has been around for at least fifty years. They are mechanical and are designed or machined for certain tolerances. The older hassy glass incorporated a leaf shutter that you could shoot at 1/800, SK LS lens from Phase one at 1/1600 (with the exception of the 40/80 zoom 1/1000) and now the latest offerings from Hassy are lens that offer flash sync of 1/2000.


    6. Electronics from the camera control the leaf shutter. I don't know what you mean about "electronic trickery" Perhaps some of the more technical minded forum members can delve into that.


    If you get a chance post a few images from your test. Have fun.
    Last edited by Jeffery Salter; 18th May 2016 at 11:58.
    Jeffery Salter
    www.jefferysalter.com

  3. #3
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    - As I understand it, shutter speed for leaf shutter is 1/800, and then there's some electronic trickery to get 1/1600 sync speed. Does this mean freezing ambient is not actually 1/1600 but instead 1/800?
    It is "electronic trickery" regarding the timing of the sensor and the shutter. However, for all intents and purposes you can treat it like 1/1600th. The "stopping power" and "freezing ambient" effects are exactly what they would be if the shutter was mechanically reaching 1/1600th.

    Re any shutter lag you're experiencing I'd make sure your firmware is up to date and you restore the defaults of your body. If you still have questions I'd suggest working with your dealer to make sure your body is performing as expected – hard to help via the internet on something like this.

    Good luck with your shoot!
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183

  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    87
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    While I am impressed with the length of your reply, Jeffery, I was shooting in a studio setting at 1/1600s with B1:s set to speed mode. Using focus recompose I got about 50% in focus, and I was using a 110mm at f/3.2 - f/4 close range. While this is a relatively short DoF I got about 90% with same technique in focus with the Hasselblad 100mm at f/2.2, both with and without true focus.

    Anyway, this time around I will have all lenses calibrated, new focus screen installed. So no excuses. I'll also try to have good light on my subject if the CMOS HAP-1 doesn't like a dim setting with ordinary roof lamps as ambient. The XF is like a spaceship compared to the Hasselblad and I really like how they expand the platform, but if I can't get critical focus consistently, it doesn't matter.

    About the shutter lag, the firmware update #2 was installed and the settings were reset before I loaned the XF. If I recall correctly, the 645DF+ had the same shutter lag. The Hasselblad has different settings in milliseconds where you can add a short delay after mirror up so handheld shots won't be affected at longer shutter speeds. I didn't experience any shutter lag on the Hasselblad. That's why I was wondering if there are other settings in the XF where you can fine tune this.

    Best regards.

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    North Sweden
    Posts
    1,403
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Drake

    With a new camera, my very first shot has the subject slap bang in the middle of the frame and if the af focusses accurately, then any missed focus when I recompose must be down to technique, there's no other reason, the camera doesn't have a devious nature and once you set focus, it changes slightly when you aren't looking! It's always the first thing I check and with the XF I didn't bother shooting anything properly until I knew the focus trim was spot on, providing consistent focus at varying distances with the subject in the centre of the frame.

    I wish you the best of luck, there is absolutely no doubt the Hasselblad is a superb camera but 50% focus with the XF is unacceptable, lets hope it's set up correctly and then you will know that anything missed is purely down to how you move when recomposing. I don't have any issue with recomposing and use that technique on a daily basis so it's entirely possible with a properly set up camera.

    Looking forward to hearing how you get on!

    Mat

  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Miami FL USA
    Posts
    53
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    While I am impressed with the length of your reply, Jeffery, I was shooting in a studio setting at 1/1600s with B1:s set to speed mode. Using focus recompose I got about 50% in focus, and I was using a 110mm at f/3.2 - f/4 close range. While this is a relatively short DoF I got about 90% with same technique in focus with the Hasselblad 100mm at f/2.2, both with and without true focus.
    @DrakeJ Thank you. Glad to help. I didn't realize you were focus and recomposing at a wide aperture to achieve some shallow depth of field images. I concur with Mjr, set the camera up properly, zero in the focus with the subject in the middle first. The handling of every camera is different, I learned to focus and recompose using Leica rangefinders, so getting comfortable in doing the same with a MFD camera went smoothly. It definitely takes a bit of practice.

    I like to also shoot at 1/1600 at F 2/8 to get some nice shallow depth of field. Here are some older images of an athlete running towards the camera using focus and recompose. It takes a lot of practice and timing do this.

    Camera DF+ / P-40+ digital back

    Shutter speed 1/1600 and 1/1250 @ F/2.8

    Lens - Schneider Kreuznach 110 LS f/2.8

    Profoto 7B power packs + 7B flash heads






    Good luck with your camera test. I understand you are shooting in a studio. I just wanted to share a few action location photos taken using the 1/1600 flash sync. and a DF+.

    If you are familiar and work in this style of photography please pardon.
    Last edited by Jeffery Salter; 19th May 2016 at 05:55. Reason: added explanation for clarity
    Jeffery Salter
    www.jefferysalter.com

  7. #7
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bruce Peninsula, Canada
    Posts
    2,535
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    184

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Re Shutter delay - do make sure you haven't got the Vibration Delay set!

    Not to insult you in any way, I recommend spending time with the XF Manual, V 1.3. From your posts it sounds like you are unaware of many features. I apologize if I'm underestimating you!

    Cheers,
    Bill
    Bill CB

    www.billcaulfeild-browne.ca
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    87
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Caulfeild-Browne View Post
    Re Shutter delay - do make sure you haven't got the Vibration Delay set!

    Not to insult you in any way, I recommend spending time with the XF Manual, V 1.3. From your posts it sounds like you are unaware of many features. I apologize if I'm underestimating you!

    Cheers,
    Bill
    I sure hope you're not insulting me

    I'm pretty sure vibration delay was not set, if so I presume the camera wouldn't fire at all while handheld. I have searched the manual a couple of times already, but haven't found anything similar to what Hasselblad has:

    *Pre-set mirror delay – You can set a 25ms to 200ms delay for the mirror. This contributes to images with less vibration

    My question was if XF has something similar which could explain my "issue".
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  9. #9
    Workshop Member Wayne Fox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Draper, Utah
    Posts
    871
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    134

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    I sure hope you're not insulting me

    I'm pretty sure vibration delay was not set, if so I presume the camera wouldn't fire at all while handheld..
    The vibration delay is a feature of the self timer. When enabled the camera will fire if it finds it is stable enough before the self timer, otherwise it will fire regardless of vibration whenever the self timer delay is reached.

    However, I don’t believe that is your problem, because I believe this would be very obvious when hand holding.

    Any chance the camera hasn’t actually “locked” focus when you recompose and then fire? I believe there is a setting which prevents the shutter from firing until focus is confirmed. I have the rear button set to focus and the shutter button only fires the camera, so it fires for me regardless of focus. Just a thought.

    However, I think the calibrating the lens may help significantly.

    Let us know how it goes.
    wayne
    My gallery

  10. #10
    Senior Member aztwang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    371
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Going to do another demo of the Phase One XF this weekend after having about 50% of my shots in focus last time with the autofocus. This time the lenses will be calibrated and a new focus screen will be installed so I can see how large the autofocus points really are.

    Before the demo I have a couple of questions for you who own Phase One XF:

    - Last time I tested the XF, there was a noticeable delay after pressing the shutter. It was as if the mirror went up and then a pretty long delay before the shutter decided to move. Either my mind was playing tricks with me, or this delay was a bit different from time to time. Is there a setting somewhere to shorten the shutter lag / delay?

    - As I understand it, shutter speed for leaf shutter is 1/800, and then there's some electronic trickery to get 1/1600 sync speed. Does this mean freezing ambient is not actually 1/1600 but instead 1/800?
    OK as the weekend has past..Any news sir? Im sure there are many who are curious!

  11. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    87
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by aztwang View Post
    OK as the weekend has past..Any news sir? Im sure there are many who are curious!
    Indeed!

    Weekend has past, and I've been enjoying the demo XF coupled with a IQ380 since I wanted to see the difference between crop and full frame since I tested the IQ350 last.

    Anyway, I'm happy to report that the autofocus was very reliable this time around. Most likely I would presume there was either something a bit awry with the last demo unit, or it was simply the fine tune of the lenses that was off. This time around I used my lenscal-thingie and the lenses didn't actually require any fine tuning at all wide open. Maybe one was front focusing just a tad, but nothing I would worry about.

    The stress test was conducted on my 5-year old son who moved around like crazy, and wide open with the 80mm and 150mm I counted about 70% in focus, which is more than I could hope for.

    On sunday I had a shoot with a more static model and I believe I missed focus on maybe 2 out of 70 shots with the 80mm wide open. I chalk it down to user error in both those instances.

    As to shutter lag I didn't experience the lag I did last time, but the Hasselblad has a much shorter shutter lag than the XF for certain.

    All in all very happy with the result. The only thing I wasn't happy about was the 150mm f/3.5 LS. Slow to focus, too long focusing distance. I was much more happy with the 110mm for the IQx50. For close headshots I don't think 110mm with a full frame sensor will be ideal...

    To be honest I was hoping that the XF would fail miserably, now that it didn't I really don't know which way I'll go.

  12. #12
    Senior Member aztwang's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Phoenix, AZ
    Posts
    371
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Indeed!

    Weekend has past, and I've been enjoying the demo XF coupled with a IQ380 since I wanted to see the difference between crop and full frame since I tested the IQ350 last.

    Anyway, I'm happy to report that the autofocus was very reliable this time around. Most likely I would presume there was either something a bit awry with the last demo unit, or it was simply the fine tune of the lenses that was off. This time around I used my lenscal-thingie and the lenses didn't actually require any fine tuning at all wide open. Maybe one was front focusing just a tad, but nothing I would worry about.

    The stress test was conducted on my 5-year old son who moved around like crazy, and wide open with the 80mm and 150mm I counted about 70% in focus, which is more than I could hope for.

    On sunday I had a shoot with a more static model and I believe I missed focus on maybe 2 out of 70 shots with the 80mm wide open. I chalk it down to user error in both those instances.

    As to shutter lag I didn't experience the lag I did last time, but the Hasselblad has a much shorter shutter lag than the XF for certain.

    All in all very happy with the result. The only thing I wasn't happy about was the 150mm f/3.5 LS. Slow to focus, too long focusing distance. I was much more happy with the 110mm for the IQx50. For close headshots I don't think 110mm with a full frame sensor will be ideal...

    To be honest I was hoping that the XF would fail miserably, now that it didn't I really don't know which way I'll go.
    The XF is an awesome platform. Had a couple issues in the beginning but I do love it. The A/F on the 120 F4 Macro when set to limit focuses pretty good, not as fast as the 110 LS. Now set the A/F to full and its really sssslllloooowwwww but again, with the limiter set it does focus pretty quick. Ken Doo loves the 150. See this " http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...ighlight=150mm "

    Cheers

    Don

  13. #13
    Workshop Member
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    NYC
    Posts
    3,275
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    7

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Quote Originally Posted by DrakeJ View Post
    Indeed!

    Weekend has past, and I've been enjoying the demo XF coupled with a IQ380 since I wanted to see the difference between crop and full frame since I tested the IQ350 last.

    Anyway, I'm happy to report that the autofocus was very reliable this time around. Most likely I would presume there was either something a bit awry with the last demo unit, or it was simply the fine tune of the lenses that was off. This time around I used my lenscal-thingie and the lenses didn't actually require any fine tuning at all wide open. Maybe one was front focusing just a tad, but nothing I would worry about.

    The stress test was conducted on my 5-year old son who moved around like crazy, and wide open with the 80mm and 150mm I counted about 70% in focus, which is more than I could hope for.

    On sunday I had a shoot with a more static model and I believe I missed focus on maybe 2 out of 70 shots with the 80mm wide open. I chalk it down to user error in both those instances.

    As to shutter lag I didn't experience the lag I did last time, but the Hasselblad has a much shorter shutter lag than the XF for certain.

    All in all very happy with the result. The only thing I wasn't happy about was the 150mm f/3.5 LS. Slow to focus, too long focusing distance. I was much more happy with the 110mm for the IQx50. For close headshots I don't think 110mm with a full frame sensor will be ideal...

    To be honest I was hoping that the XF would fail miserably, now that it didn't I really don't know which way I'll go.
    Glad to hear your experience was in line with normal expectations this time!

    Re lens calibration – despite some points of data in earlier posts, our (DT's) testing shows the majority of body-lens combinations don't need calibration. But the point is some do (as with every body-lens system I have ever worked with or tested) and the capability is there and easy to execute.

    The XF lag is very similar to the H. My guess is you were just more mentally focused on it since the first time you had an (still unexplained) unusual experience with crazy lag. The most likely explanation to your first experience, in my opinion, is an f'd up body (maybe corrupt firmware?), and as you now see, has nothing to do with the expected performance of the XF (which shouldn't surprise you given the nearly universally positive reviews given by users here and on LL). If you want even more responsiveness than the H system you can disable the leaf shutter on the XF (sync speed will drop to 1/125) and the lag will drop further.

    I personally also feel the 150D, 110LS, or 120LS are better options for close headshots than the 150LS. As noted above make sure to set the 120LS to limit mode (so it isn't trying to search for focus an inch from the lens). That said, we have many happy customers with 150LS shooting headshots.

    Have you had the chance to play with your files in Capture One yet? What do you think of the tonality, color, skintones, and other markers of quality? The IQ380 isn't, as I'm sure you know, that great at middle or high ISOs but any low ISO shots you took should be quite stunning in image quality.

    I expect the next post from you will be letting us know you've gone full throttle and gone with an IQ3 100mp, XF, and several lenses .
    Doug Peterson , Digital Transitions | Email
    Dealer for: Phase One, Mamiya Leaf, Arca-Swiss, Cambo, Eizo, Profoto
    Office: 877.367.8537. Cell: 740.707.2183
    Likes 1 Member(s) liked this post

  14. #14
    Super Duper
    Senior Member
    Bill Caulfeild-Browne's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Location
    Bruce Peninsula, Canada
    Posts
    2,535
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    184

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    I have the 120 LS and find (as has been said) the focus to be very slow and even non-responsive at very close distances. But given that I usually focus manually and then move the camera to get things sharp, it's not a problem.

    I just got the Blue Ring 150 LS and love it. It needed a LOT of focus trim (-200) but is quite fast and I'm very pleased with it. Razor sharp at full aperture. It's much lighter than the 120 which I only carry when I know I'll need macro.
    Bill CB

    www.billcaulfeild-browne.ca
    Thanks 1 Member(s) thanked for this post

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    2,058
    Post Thanks / Like
    Images
    1

    Re: Phase XF shutter speed and shutter lag/delay

    Answered my own question.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •