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Thread: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

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    Question Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Hi all,

    C1 seems to get better and better at fixing color cast and tiling issues (through improved LCC processing, some wizardry, and local uniformity controls). At this point I'm no longer sure 80MP CCD backs are still a no-go for tech cam users.

    For those working with such a combo, what is the maximum "clean" shift you can get with the 32, 40 and 70HR nowadays ? Any issue I should be aware of before taking the plunge ?
    I'm mostly shooting architecture, with an IQ260, and rarely have to shift more than 15mm with the 40HR. I'd be perfectly fine if 80MP backs could at least handle the same without too much post-processing work.

    Thanks,
    Frederic

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    As long as it's a Rodenstock the shift ranges should be the same between the 260 and 80 mp backs. At least from my experience. You will run into the Rodenstock image circle edge indicator long before you run out of sensor.

    Paul C
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    Senior Member dchew's Avatar
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    When I had the 40hr/70hr - IQ180 combo I felt the limit was between 12 and 15mm, depending on the image and what your definition of acceptable is.

    I do not own the 32.

    Dave
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    Senior Member kdphotography's Avatar
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Same experience as Dave---when I had the IQ180. 12-15mm using the 40HR and 70HR.

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Haven't seen anything recently, a couple of years ago I got in contact with a IQ180 user that did large panorama shifts on the 32 HR and got residual ripple issues and a little desaturation. The error was small enough so some wouldn't care, but he crossgraded to a IQ260 and I would have done the same, but you know me, I am allergic to those issues. The ripple cleanup could be better today, but desaturation (crosstalk) is probably the same.

    I dont remember what the shift was, but it was large, for smaller shifts it was fine.

    Technically speaking the 6um pixels is the compatibility limit for the Rodie wides, but issues are gradual in onset so you may consider movement range to be equal. Or maybe not. Seeing with your own eyes is safest, and try with saturated colors along the edges to test worst cases, and indoor narrow band lights if you need that to work.
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Hi Anders,

    That was actually me with the IQ180, IQ260 with 32HR on the Cambo 1250.

    I have since upgraded to IQ380, and now the IQ3100.

    Using the IQ180 in the vertical orientation shows tiling in clear blue sky with shifts of more than 15mm on the 32HR.

    However, this seems not to be a problem with C1 V8 and V9 with a proper LCC capture.

    With the IQ380 you can do a 3:1 panoramic with the full 20mm left right shift on the IQ380 with C1 V9.

    An example of such an image in full resolution can be found here:

    http://www.saether-online.com/Trondheim_Pano.JPG

    The individual IQ380 files with LCC, 10mm and 20mm left/right shift:

    http://saether-online.com/IQ380_HR32...ight_Shift.zip

    There is a slight desaturation in the corners, and there is some loss of resolution, but no tiling and no ripple.

    The image printed at 60x180 cm (24x72 inches) on my Canon iPF6450 looks stunning.

    There are some colour issues in the far corners, but for BW conversion (which I mostly do) I have no reservation with 32HR on the IQ380.

    Not sure about the IQ180 and IQ280 in this respect, as I do not have access to those anymore.

    Best regards

    Trond
    Last edited by trond; 3rd June 2016 at 14:40.
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    All with IQ180 landscape, shifts (assume about 80% of these if you're doing portrait rise/fall)
    23HR +/-5mm
    32HR +/-15mm
    40HR +/-17mm
    90HRSW +/-25mm
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    Thumbs up Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Wow, didnt 't expect so many answers, thanks a lot guys for your feedback ! It's re-assuring to read the 15mm mark is now mostly ok with C1 newer versions.

    I'm downloading Trond files (much thanks !) which would be the most extreme situation I'd push the back to : a 20mm shift must get you real close to the circle edge indicator.

    In a perfect world we wouldn't tolerate that desaturation and softness in the corners, but to me this is a normal trade-off when using movements (and you know I'm kinda picky about colors, Anders). Of course Phase & co could shield their pixels better and implement some workarounds, I really wish they'd do though I don't see that happening anytime soon.
    Actually since I'm still shooting 4x5, I may be a bit more resilient, and accept some flaws. Vignetting, dust, the hassle of scanning... puts things into perspective

    Best,
    Frederic

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Yes I know you have an extremely good eye for color :-).

    Just curious, why not keep the 260? The 80 is only 20 more megapixels and a tiny bit smaller sensor. And the 60 is color stable with those lenses.

    I can agree that one can see desaturation as a form of vignetting though, but it's not something that all sensors exhibit. Color can be detected at any distance, while those 20 extra megapixels is tough to see in the final product, so I think the case for the 60 is pretty strong.

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Morning

    I agree with Anders, the pro's would be the extra mp's but on a shifted, stitched image the file from either back is huge! The cons could possibly lead you in to issues with extreme shifts although not necessarily an issue as pointed out above but why run the risk? I may be biased as I have a 260 as well and it produces a lovely file on a tech cam, I think I'd only look at a 180 if I moved completely to the XF without a tech cam and then I think it would have a benefit but probably not enough to warrant the financial losses from a change. It's a tough decision for sure, you may just want the 80mp back in which case, go for it but for me I don't think it would be worth it when the files are so good from the 60.

    Will be interesting to see which way you go, good luck with the decision!

    Mat
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    Senior Member Pemihan's Avatar
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    I moved from a IQ160 to a IQ180 and really don't see a lot of difference regarding issues like tiling and micro lens ripples. Color cast seem to clean up nicely too, I haven't noticed if it got worse but as I primarily make B&W landscape work I haven't exactly been looking for it either.
    Bear in mind that no two sensors behave the same, so it also depends on the actual sensor.

    I mainly shoot with the 40HR and SK60XL and SK120 Aspheric and normally only shift 10mm left right in landscape with some fall as well. Sometimes also in portrait with up to 10mm shift left right as well.

    Peter
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Quote Originally Posted by Pemihan View Post
    I moved from a IQ160 to a IQ180 and really don't see a lot of difference regarding issues like tiling and micro lens ripples. Color cast seem to clean up nicely too, I haven't noticed if it got worse but as I primarily make B&W landscape work I haven't exactly been looking for it either.
    Bear in mind that no two sensors behave the same, so it also depends on the actual sensor.

    I mainly shoot with the 40HR and SK60XL and SK120 Aspheric and normally only shift 10mm left right in landscape with some fall as well. Sometimes also in portrait with up to 10mm shift left right as well.

    Peter
    This whole thread is very encouraging, especially if the 80mp backs have become that usable even with the Schneiders, that's exciting. I'd been planning on going the route of a Credo 60 next year as I'd written the 80mp backs off as strictly Rodie performers, and I prefer the Schneiders' color rendition and lack of distortion even if the line is technically 'dead' at this point. Anyone here been using the 43XL shifted on an 80mp back? If the 43XL and 60XL are happy, I'm happy.

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Quote Originally Posted by HMJones View Post
    This whole thread is very encouraging, especially if the 80mp backs have become that usable even with the Schneiders, that's exciting. I'd been planning on going the route of a Credo 60 next year as I'd written the 80mp backs off as strictly Rodie performers, and I prefer the Schneiders' color rendition and lack of distortion even if the line is technically 'dead' at this point. Anyone here been using the 43XL shifted on an 80mp back? If the 43XL and 60XL are happy, I'm happy.
    Bear in mind that it doesn't mean there are no issues. Tiling can still be seen and micro lens ripples too. Especially in B&W conversions. I just haven't seen any worsening from moving from the 160 to the 180.
    Peter
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Quote Originally Posted by HMJones View Post
    This whole thread is very encouraging, especially if the 80mp backs have become that usable even with the Schneiders, that's exciting. I'd been planning on going the route of a Credo 60 next year as I'd written the 80mp backs off as strictly Rodie performers, and I prefer the Schneiders' color rendition and lack of distortion even if the line is technically 'dead' at this point. Anyone here been using the 43XL shifted on an 80mp back? If the 43XL and 60XL are happy, I'm happy.
    The 43XL does not play well at all with the 80MP backs past 5mm or so, the color cast gets very harsh and loss of saturation. Much like the 35XL, from my experience.

    However the 60XL, does quite well, I have gotten 15mm to 18mm depending on the scene. Color cast is much less.

    Many 80MP users switched from the 43XL to the 40 HR-W for similar reasons as mine.

    Paul C

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    The view is complicated by that the 60 isn't perfect either. It shows both tiling and ripple. The tiling part differs quite much between different sensors instances and digital back calibrations, and the color cast can vary a little bit too. Tiling and ripple cleans up quite well though, and AFAIK it has become even better with later versions of C1. With high contrast processing, as often used in B&W the tiling and ripple can still re-appear in some circumstances. The individual variations in color cast has no effect, it's cancelled out in full by the individual LCC.

    AFAIK for color photos with normal contrast the tiling and ripple should never(?) be any problem for the 60. It was a little for the 80 in the older C1 versions, but it seems it has improved (haven't tested myself).

    This leaves the desaturation/crosstalk issue for large shifts to be the only relevant difference left, which obviously is not much of an issue for B&W processing. For the lazy ones that doesn't want to look into trond's test shots above, here's an example of how the desaturation can look:

    http://www.getdpi.com/forum/medium-f...tml#post672488

    for an IQ180/ SK60XL

    as most colors in nature are relatively desaturated to start with rarely bad things happen when there is crosstalk, they're just further desaturated. If you have a high saturation color you can get color shifts too though. If you ask me the desaturation is pretty clear at 15mm shift on the 60XL, and to me that level is not really acceptable -- the colors are not unlike what I get from my mobile phone camera in low light (dull brownish pastel) and that is not what I want from a system at this level. I'm not that worried about a shifted lens getting a bit blurrier as it's a pixel peep thing, but the color degradation is not. However, if you see it as a sort of "vignetting" creative effect you could accept it, and in any case few would notice. I guess you could patch it with some manual post-processing tricks too.

    It all comes down to taste and needs in the end which varies between us all. I would keep the IQ260, and I don't even like that due to that it still exhibits those tiling/ripple artifacts, even if I can clean it up with an algorithm (and I spent lots of time making one as good as C1, or even better than that at the time at least) I just don't like a sensor being dependent on that type of cleaning, so I'm still on this old-school Kodak and will probably stay there until doomsday but then I've had to give up other things like top notch DR and resolution. Well, if I had loved Rodenstock Digarons I'd probably go for a Dalsa anyway -- then the 60MP -- so I actually got to use my tiling/ripple cleanup code , but I'm into the Schneider Digitar wides (due to distortion-free, lower weight and more traditional large-format style design) and as we know those don't play that well even with the 60.
    Last edited by torger; 5th June 2016 at 14:44.

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    Thumbs up Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Thanks all for sharing your experience, the 60 to 80MP upgrade seems to be less problematic than 2 years ago.

    As for the reasons to upgrade, the main ones would be :
    - interesting upgrade offers from resellers, on the condition you go for a Phase back, and not Leaf
    - on the paper, for some customers (repro, cultural heritage), 80MP sounds better than 60MP,
    - the XF body and new 35mm lens make you reconsider your workflow : as much as I hate to admit it, with some cropping and perspective correction this combo could have its place for not too demanding architecture jobs too,
    - high resolution is why I got into MFDB in the first place, so the more the better !
    - judging same size prints made with 60 and 80 backs, the 80 colors look better to me, maybe more gradation there ? It's all in the eye of the beholder though.

    If I could I'd keep the IQ260 and grab an Aptus II-12, which I find absolutely fantastic when it comes to color rendition...
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Makes me wonder if Phase are slowly killing leaf off with such discounts. I hope not.
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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    Makes me wonder too, really...

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    I have not used a Phase back in the field, only Hasselblad and Leaf Credo. I think the Leaf interface is by far the best, most intuitive and just never gets in the way of shooting. Settings are extra simple to change and I'd go as far as to say it's perfect. I can't comment really on the reported special Leaf colours, but I very much like what I'm getting with my Credo 60. I just can't understand why Phase have so many backs in their lineup, from IQ1 up to IQ3, and why Leaf seems restrained to staying put with their IQ1 equivalents, especially since they share the same parent company. Maybe Photokina will bring some progress for Leaf, hence the Phase discounts you've mentioned. I hope so, as choice is a good thing. Would you consider waiting for Photokina before jumping ship?

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    I will wait, definately. And I hope Leaf will come up with something this fall, be it a 100MP CMOS back or new CCD Credo, whatever it is actually, just to prove the brand is still alive. I wish I could come back from the Kina with a Credo 80 v2 in my hands, even with only a very few new functions...

    As a die hard fan of Kodak/Creo/Scitex/Leaf, it pisses me off to see how the brand and know-how is (mis)treated.
    If it's really Team P1 intention to let Leaf die, at least give Phase users access to their color tables and profiles, and even to their GUI, as an option ?

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    Re: Rodies, tech cam movements & 80MP CCD backs

    I don't think there's any need to worry just yet. When Leaf was bought it was degraded from competitor to Phase One's budget brand. As the sensors are the same there must be another way to differentiate, the most important one is that the Phase One brand delivers their products a long time before a corresponding Leaf product. It's more difficult to cripple the feature set as it would not make the product attractive enough compared to today's expectations. So I think the long wait for a new Leaf products should be expected.

    I do wonder though if Phase One actually makes more money owning Leaf, or if they would be better off only focusing on their own brand. Sure it's better to sell a Leaf than lose a sale to Hasselblad, but it's even better to sell an IQ back...

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