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Hasselblad X1D

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi,

There is a 23 mm from Rodenstock
Canon's 17/4 TSE L and 24/3.5 TSE L would be usable if the camera would have FPS

A lens like the SWC doesn't play well with digital sensor, because the symmetrical design gives large angles.

The effects of the large beam angles are:

  • Vignetting (cos 4, and vignetting by pixel pits)
  • Crosstalk between pixels
  • Astigmatism caused by cover glass (can probably compensated in optical design)

Best regards
Erik




The SWC is 38mm on 56x56 format. That is ultra wide to me. To achieve that on 33x33 format requires a 22mm lens.

The available digital backs I could use on the SWC are not 56x56 format.

G
 

jng

Well-known member
With the announcement of a 30mm later this fall it will make your 'SWC digital camera', no? Alternatively, if AF is not a must for you, a SWC with a mighty fine Phase One back will do as well, although net wise more expensive. Than again, what would you consider ultra wide on a MF camera?
Maybe. In my experience using the 60 Mp Dalsa 40x54mm sensor on the SWC requires stopping down to f/16 to pull the corners in owing to the large beam angles from the symmetric Biogon design - why the SWC is so wonderfully compact, after all. A LCC is also required if you're picky about the colors out there as well. I could hand hold this combo but with base ISO = 50 this was really only feasible in bright daylight (sunny 16 and divide shutter speed in half). I reluctantly just sold my SWC/M - I enjoyed using it but the conditions under which I could use it or get images I was happy with were just to restrictive.

30mm on a crop frame MF sensor combined with the portability of the X1D seems like a pretty attractive alternative to the SWC, at least for me. No it won't give the same diagonal field of view as the SWC on 6x6 film but in terms of a horizontal (or vertical) field it's pretty close.

John
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Hi,

There is a 23 mm from Rodenstock
Canon's 17/4 TSE L and 24/3.5 TSE L would be usable if the camera would have FPS

A lens like the SWC doesn't play well with digital sensor, because the symmetrical design gives large angles.

The effects of the large beam angles are:

  • Vignetting (cos 4, and vignetting by pixel pits)
  • Crosstalk between pixels
  • Astigmatism caused by cover glass (can probably compensated in optical design)

Best regards
Erik
Yes. I'm well aware of all that.
The camera doesn't have a focal plane shutter. That's the design.

I don't want to adapt lenses. I want a native lens, matched and optimized to the body and the format. A 20-24 mm lens would be suitable, preferably 22 or wider.

G
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Maybe. In my experience using the 60 Mp Dalsa 40x54mm sensor on the SWC requires stopping down to f/16 to pull the corners in owing to the large beam angles from the symmetric Biogon design - why the SWC is so wonderfully compact, after all. A LCC is also required if you're picky about the colors out there as well. I could hand hold this combo but with base ISO = 50 this was really only feasible in bright daylight (sunny 16 and divide shutter speed in half). I reluctantly just sold my SWC/M - I enjoyed using it but the conditions under which I could use it or get images I was happy with were just to restrictive.

30mm on a crop frame MF sensor combined with the portability of the X1D seems like a pretty attractive alternative to the SWC, at least for me. No it won't give the same diagonal field of view as the SWC on 6x6 film but in terms of a horizontal (or vertical) field it's pretty close.

John
I'm not interested in anything but square format with as close to that SWC FoV as possible. That's my particular desire/need... 30mm is way too long a focal length for what I want.

On a FF 35mm sensor, a 15 to 16 mm lens does the right thing. It's why I have the Super-Elmar-R 15mm f/3.5 and WATE for the Leica M/SL cameras.

G
 

tjv

Active member
Ok...

So it is possible for 'Blad to make a cable release that plugs into the USB-c port? If so I hope they acknowledge this and put out a product asap after or at release. It's essential, IMO. For those of us that do tripod based work in the field, timer release is not an option, and neither is wireless via an app etc. When things are moving in front of the camera, a split second is an eternity.
 

hcubell

Well-known member
Ok...

So it is possible for 'Blad to make a cable release that plugs into the USB-c port? If so I hope they acknowledge this and put out a product asap after or at release. It's essential, IMO. For those of us that do tripod based work in the field, timer release is not an option, and neither is wireless via an app etc. When things are moving in front of the camera, a split second is an eternity.
I don't know the first thing about the electronics involved here, but isn't it quite possible that a cable release plugged into a port on the X1D that was not designed as a dedicated port for a cable release would require some changes in the internal circuitry? Not just firmware. If so, that ship may have sailed, as the X1D was supposed to start shipping by late August. In any event, I am surprised that Hasselblad has not addressed the issue yet. If they don't come up with a solution, this is one negative that will have to be weighed against all of the positives. IMO. Everything in life is a series of tradeoffs.
 

Godfrey

Well-known member
Ok...

So it is possible for 'Blad to make a cable release that plugs into the USB-c port? If so I hope they acknowledge this and put out a product asap after or at release. It's essential, IMO. For those of us that do tripod based work in the field, timer release is not an option, and neither is wireless via an app etc. When things are moving in front of the camera, a split second is an eternity.
I do agree with you about a wired remote release. Even though my two system cameras are fully controllable with WiFi remote release capabilities, and I use that in the field a lot of the time, there are situations where the convenience, immediacy, and responsiveness of a wired remote just beats the wireless remote operation hands down.

Since the X1D will indeed have remote operation software, both tethered with USB and WiFi, according to the reports I've read, that means the control protocol for a wired USB remote is all in place already. What they'd need to do, at its most complex, is to make a USB device that engages the shutter release protocol in its hardware.

G
 

tjv

Active member
Good point. If you can control the camera via usb tethered connection, a simple wired cable release is surely easy to make. Just need word from Hasstlblad to confirm!
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
It always amazes me that these companies shoot themselves in the foot by missing basic things like support for hard wired remotes or inability to deliver basic items (Phase One) such as the normal length cable releases or for a long time the waist level finder.

Hasselblad could avoid all of the conjecture amongst potential buyers by just making an announcement or update of their web site to clarify the remote release issue. Maybe it's not an option immediately but at least providing some roadmap information would stop some potential buyers from writing off the camera ahead of time.

It's not a complete deal breaker for me but I really really hate the option of using a smart phone as the triggering device. It's really not a reliable option out in the real world especially as mentioned here if you power on/off the camera between shooting setups. You can also guarantee that it'll be a situation where the battery is low in the phone or conditions are bad enough that you don't want to soak or handle the phone & camera.
 

Jan

Member
Maybe. In my experience using the 60 Mp Dalsa 40x54mm sensor on the SWC requires stopping down to f/16 to pull the corners in owing to the large beam angles from the symmetric Biogon design - why the SWC is so wonderfully compact, after all. A LCC is also required if you're picky about the colors out there as well. I could hand hold this combo but with base ISO = 50 this was really only feasible in bright daylight (sunny 16 and divide shutter speed in half). I reluctantly just sold my SWC/M - I enjoyed using it but the conditions under which I could use it or get images I was happy with were just to restrictive.

30mm on a crop frame MF sensor combined with the portability of the X1D seems like a pretty attractive alternative to the SWC, at least for me. No it won't give the same diagonal field of view as the SWC on 6x6 film but in terms of a horizontal (or vertical) field it's pretty close.

John
In regard to your last paragraph I have similar thoughts. I use a P25+ on the SWC and if a X1D with a 30mm comes close enough for 'an affordable price' who am I to have nightmares over the traditional film 56x56 format. Heck, I can't even find a decent lab anymore to process colour film and e6 is dead in my territory.

LCC profiles are always helpful I guess, I especially need them if I mount the DB on a customized slider. With a total 32mm shift the angle to the lens (Schneider Super Angulon 58mm) causes all sorts of nightmares that can be easily solved using LCC profiles.
 

Jan

Member
It always amazes me that these companies shoot themselves in the foot by missing basic things like support for hard wired remotes or inability to deliver basic items (Phase One) such as the normal length cable releases or for a long time the waist level finder.

Hasselblad could avoid all of the conjecture amongst potential buyers by just making an announcement or update of their web site to clarify the remote release issue. Maybe it's not an option immediately but at least providing some roadmap information would stop some potential buyers from writing off the camera ahead of time.

It's not a complete deal breaker for me but I really really hate the option of using a smart phone as the triggering device. It's really not a reliable option out in the real world especially as mentioned here if you power on/off the camera between shooting setups. You can also guarantee that it'll be a situation where the battery is low in the phone or conditions are bad enough that you don't want to soak or handle the phone & camera.
I hear ya, but you and I are old geezers coming from different, old skool, thoughts. Gen Y rely on forward engineering and all is electronics and software based these days. There likely will not be any competitor bringing something similar to the market including the good ole cable release hardware. And that my friend, is exactly what these companies are betting on these days. My mum always said 'if you can't beat them, join them'. Silly enough, only the older I get the more I understand she is so much right about that.
 

jng

Well-known member
In regard to your last paragraph I have similar thoughts. I use a P25+ on the SWC and if a X1D with a 30mm comes close enough for 'an affordable price' who am I to have nightmares over the traditional film 56x56 format. Heck, I can't even find a decent lab anymore to process colour film and e6 is dead in my territory.
True enough. I have grown accustomed to shooting the 4x3 format and often crop to longer aspect ratios for landscapes. However Godfrey's comment got me thinking about the joys of shooting 6x6 on the SWC.

I am planning a little hike tomorrow morning to photograph a scene that I spotted on the trail last week. So, when I packed my bag tonight I decided to include an A12 back with a roll of Velvia, together with the 40mm + Flexbody + digital back. Let's just say that I'm relying on "muscle memory" to load the film in the back, should the opportunity present itself. :)

John
 

Nick-T

New member
It always amazes me that these companies shoot themselves in the foot by missing basic things like....
Well they've shot themselves in the foot with a camera that sold in a week what they hoped for in 6 months...

Here and elsewhere I have seen people say they will ABSOLUTELY not buy this camera because:

No cable release (currently, watch this space)

No focal plane shutter

No face detection

No multi-shot

No ultra wide angle

No zoom (currently)

No ability to use with Capture One

No optical viewfinder

No ability to use on a view camera

And so on.

I say again, do NOT buy this camera if you need a feature that it doesn't have.

Just don't.

But again, many many many people are buying this camera and that is good for Hasselblad which is good for medium format.
 

ErikKaffehr

Well-known member
Hi Graham,

Never had a camera without a cable release, albeit I mostly use the self timer. On the Hasselblad I don't have a regular shutter button, so I am cable release full time.

From the discussions I understand the using an iPhone is not a very stable solution. Albeit it should be a near ideal one.

Hopefully Hasselblad get things right before shipping…

My understanding was that they demonstrated some early samples, with firmware far from ready.

Even if they may have missed some things, that may even matter a lot to certain users, they got many things right.

Best regards
Erik


It always amazes me that these companies shoot themselves in the foot by missing basic things like support for hard wired remotes or inability to deliver basic items (Phase One) such as the normal length cable releases or for a long time the waist level finder.

Hasselblad could avoid all of the conjecture amongst potential buyers by just making an announcement or update of their web site to clarify the remote release issue. Maybe it's not an option immediately but at least providing some roadmap information would stop some potential buyers from writing off the camera ahead of time.

It's not a complete deal breaker for me but I really really hate the option of using a smart phone as the triggering device. It's really not a reliable option out in the real world especially as mentioned here if you power on/off the camera between shooting setups. You can also guarantee that it'll be a situation where the battery is low in the phone or conditions are bad enough that you don't want to soak or handle the phone & camera.
 

chrismuc

Member
Two more things the rep mentioned:

1
There was no cooperation with Fuji in developing the X1D system (not new), but the lenses are produced at the Japanese lens manufacturer Nito (not new) which is already producing the Hasselblad H lenses (new to me) from the previous joint-venture with Fuji.

2
The final firmware will include the two crop-format modes

'V' = square = 6200x 6200 pixel = 38 MP
'X-Pan' = 1:2.7 = 8272 x 3064 pixel = 25 MP

(naming and exact pixel count estimated)

In both cases the image in the EVF and the back screen will be cropped accordingly to see only the resulting picture. Sounds quite cool for fans of these formats, even if resolution is lost by cropping.

Remark: In a second step Hasselblad could offer the 'X-Pan' mode with shift (shifting the crop), to simulate that shift feature of the Horseman and Linhof 612 panorama cameras;-)
 

Christopher

Active member
Well they've shot themselves in the foot with a camera that sold in a week what they hoped for in 6 months...

Here and elsewhere I have seen people say they will ABSOLUTELY not buy this camera because:

No cable release (currently, watch this space)

No focal plane shutter

No face detection

No multi-shot

No ultra wide angle

No zoom (currently)

No ability to use with Capture One

No optical viewfinder

No ability to use on a view camera

And so on.

I say again, do NOT buy this camera if you need a feature that it doesn't have.

Just don't.

But again, many many many people are buying this camera and that is good for Hasselblad which is good for medium format.


Very true and so far I am with that. For me the problem isn't a missing feature but the old 50MP CMOS...

I know some will know say its pretty current, but honestly it isn't.

I am, however, happy for anyone buying it and I'm happy they are doing well, because I can image the next generation will be exactly what I'm looking for.

80-100Mp
On sensor electronic shutter
By then we have a complete lens range and I don't have to "hope" for a specific lens.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
Well they've shot themselves in the foot with a camera that sold in a week what they hoped for in 6 months...

Here and elsewhere I have seen people say they will ABSOLUTELY not buy this camera because:

No cable release (currently, watch this space)

No focal plane shutter

No face detection

No multi-shot

No ultra wide angle

No zoom (currently)

No ability to use with Capture One

No optical viewfinder

No ability to use on a view camera

And so on.

I say again, do NOT buy this camera if you need a feature that it doesn't have.

Just don't.

But again, many many many people are buying this camera and that is good for Hasselblad which is good for medium format.
But to miss out on many sales for the sake of a simple release beggars belief.
 

GrahamWelland

Subscriber & Workshop Member
But to miss out on many sales for the sake of a simple release beggars belief.
I don't know how much it really affects total sales but it really is a bit of a joke to not acknowledge or present a roadmap early on for something that has been the staple of every serious camera since the year dot.

As to Nick-T's list, other than item one (cable release), I personally could care less about the rest. The lack of cable release isn't a new phenomenon as I said. I've spent 6+ months shooting without one with my Phase One XF until last week. But, at least we knew that it was coming, even if apparently made of unobtanium.
 

tjv

Active member
I'll amost certainly get an X1D when budget allows, but a cable release is a must for what I'd use it for.
All other things the camera doesn't have I couldn't care less about. In the meantime, I'll save my dollars.
 

KeithL

Well-known member
To say if it hasn't got it then don't buy it isn't particularly helpful. Hasselblad does seem to listen to comments on forums - they did after all introduce the type of camera many were hoping for in the form of the X1D!

Hopefully they are listening to these calls from photographers for what is a given standard and that they see sense and actually act on them.
 
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