IQ3 100MP long exposure issue - shadow filled with red color cast

[Christopher]

I always wanted to test it as well, but I just don't have the time. Currently I don't need it. The longest stuff is around 5-10 minutes and here I can say it looks quite good. Perhaps next week I will have the chance to do something with the XF, but perhaps it will be another week before I have the time.

I agree that Phase One has to do nothing if you have problems exposing for 30 minutes without NR (black frame). I know the 250 can do it but that's a different horse.

However, WITH NR and a reasonable exposure up to 60 minutes should be a problem.

 

[Ken_R]

Now this I call, "bullshit."

There's nothing to hide, nor is there any need for confidentiality. You have no problem plastering the forums here with your files and gyrations---yet when it comes to another dealer or a very capable tech (Doug) checking the files and dialogue, you balk?? It's your support case number.
If there is such a significant and profound issue as you claim (so far you seem to be the only real complainant thus far) and you wish the IQ3 100MP to be a "greater back"---cut the ****. Be open forthright and disclose. To hell with any purported need to ask your dealer. It's your support case with Phase! If there is an issue, you seem to have no problem with hitting the forums. How about a little transparency?

The real silliness is that it seems very very few actual owners or users photograph and push the files as you do. If that truly is your expectation, then good luck to you, and I hope you find a camera system that works for you. I don't think the IQ3 100MP is it absent a firmware update. Maybe Hasselblad's special recipe will work for you when they finally release their 100MP back. Or you might just have to wait for the IQ4 series...

I'm outta here. Good luck to you.

ken

+1!!!

It is quite sad. Even though Voidshatter's info is quite a few times right he is wrong with his (lack of) communication skills and comes across as a naggy chronically unhappy and unsatisfied person (he probably is). Over and over again post after post the same arguments are repeated. Plus he almost always focuses on what the product does not have rather than what it offers.

He might as well just get a A7RII or a D810 or whatever is available that works for what he wants to do and be happy, if that is possible.

 

[voidshatter]

I don't have a dog in this fight. Never done long exposures beyond 5 minutes or so.

Just wondering, is there a particular time cut off where the red cast appears? Would you be able to take exposures at say 5 minute intervals to see exactly how long it takes? Just curious, it may be to do with the sensor heating up and causing the problem after a certain length of time.

Just completed this incremental test with the following setup:

a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
b) Set camera mode to normal mode and zero latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

 

[voidshatter]

I always wanted to test it as well, but I just don't have the time. Currently I don't need it. The longest stuff is around 5-10 minutes and here I can say it looks quite good. Perhaps next week I will have the chance to do something with the XF, but perhaps it will be another week before I have the time.

I agree that Phase One has to do nothing if you have problems exposing for 30 minutes without NR (black frame). I know the 250 can do it but that's a different horse.

However, WITH NR and a reasonable exposure up to 60 minutes should be a problem.

Just completed this incremental test with the XF+ body with the following setup:

a) Set camera mode to normal mode and normal latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
b) Couple with XF+ body and Schneider 55mm LS and power on;
c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

 

[voidshatter]

A whole day has been wasted just because people here defend darkframe NR, which doubles the time required for these long exposure tests. For real world shooting I will never consider such an inconvenient way of shooting again. Not having to rely on any darkframe NR in the field is essential for me. Good luck and have fun if you guys are interested in testing this out. :facesmack:

 

[Pradeep]

I have been following this thread with interest and have read everyone's responses and frankly folks, I am disappointed in the august gathering on this forum.

Either Yunli is right, the camera does not perform as per specs or he is wrong. The issue is how we as a fraternity of passionate photographers handle this matter. It does not help by saying 'this is not the camera for you', 'why don't you report it to Phase and let them sort it out' etc. I think the process should be one of trying to understand what is happening and why. This could happen to any one of us with any of our cameras. Just because the majority do not use their equipment in this manner does not mean it is not relevant. I don't do any fashion or glamor, and if somebody here has a problem with high-speed flash sync it would be unfair of me to suggest they need a different way of working or a different system altogether.

Nobody forces anyone to read or response to anything at GetDPI, or anywhere else on the net. If you don't like what somebody is saying, just ignore the thread altogether. Saying 'I'm out of here' and then coming back with another post just shows you are really vested in this thread and get a thrill from participating even if to pour derision on the OP.

Yes, Yunli could be better at explaining himself, but so many of us do not speak English natively or have other barriers to communicating coherently. Very few of us are articulate, erudite AND eloquent. This does not mean a response full of innuendos is appropriate. His other problem is persistence, though some may consider it a virtue. I do not believe he is a troll and I think he genuinely feels there is a problem with his particular unit and perhaps others that may not be obvious unless people do the same tests he is doing. His methodology is also important to his work and I believe we should welcome a different approach to long-exposure photography if it produces good results - something that he has shown already.

My humble suggestion is for people to show a little more understanding and sympathy, that's all.

 

[voidshatter]

TLDR: here is a summary of current observations so far:

(I have masked out the last digit of each known serial number)

Digital back	Serial number	Firmware	Darkframe without LENR	Darkframe with LENR	Tech cam without LENR	Tech cam with LENR	XF+ with LENR
Demo unit #1	IG01109?	3.05.1	Red shadow	?	?	?	?
Demo unit #2	IG01112?	4.03.2	Red shadow	?	Red shadow	Red shadow	Red shadow
Demo unit #3	IG01128?	3.08.1	?	?	Red shadow	?	?
Jazz's	IG01141?	4.01.2	Red shadow	?	Red shadow	Red shadow	Red shadow
Dave's	IG01158?	4.01.2	Red shadow	?	Normal	Normal	?
Victor's	?	4.01.2	?	?	Normal	Normal	?
IQ250	GT00149?	1.05.1	Normal	?	Normal	Normal	?

 

[Jamgolf]

I do not have a 10 stop ND filter so I just used 32HR with CF at f32.
Its about a 15 minute exposure (14 minute 47 seconds).
With dark frame ON (no LCC off course)
IS0=100 (forgot to change it to 50)

IQ3 100 H
Firmware=4.03.2
SN=IE0110XX


Full image:

100% crop without any adjustment:

100% crop with HDR Shadow slider = 100:

100% crop with HDR Shadow Slider = 100 AND Exposure Slider = +2

100% crop with HDR Shadow Slider = 100 AND Exposure Slider = +4

This does not fit how I use my cameras but IF I had to do something like this, I think I'd be OK with what I am getting.

As far as I am concerned this is a non-issue FOR ME.

Hope this helps.
Cheers!

 

[Iliah Borg]

Just completed this incremental test with the following setup:

a) Power on and couple with ALPA Schneider 75mm f/5.6 APO-Helvetar without shift;
b) Set camera mode to normal mode and zero latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

View attachment 119821

What you are showing looks like black level going up with exposure going up. You can try editing black level in RawDigger manually to confirm the issue. With correct black level there should be no magenta cast and normal contrast.

 

[kimyeesan]

Just completed this incremental test with the XF+ body with the following setup:

a) Set camera mode to normal mode and normal latency; (this means a darkframe NR countdown after each exposure)
b) Couple with XF+ body and Schneider 55mm LS and power on;
c) Shoot image at 1/8s, 2min, 7min, 15min and 30min with appropriate ND filter(s) and corresponding aperture.

IQ3 100MP demo unit (SN: IG01112?) with firmware 4.03.2:

View attachment 119822

anyone question the ND filters????? I mean ND filters are known to create this kind of red hue/IR polution to the image.... no????

 

[voidshatter]

What you are showing looks like black level going up with exposure going up. You can try editing black level in RawDigger manually to confirm the issue. With correct black level there should be no magenta cast and normal contrast.

That is also what I thought. There is perhaps a drift of the red channel. Manually specifying a higher black level of the red channel DOES remove the red cast in shadow. However this value is not fixed among my test shots. The positive side is that this could potentially be fixed with a firmware update or a Capture One update.

 

[voidshatter]

anyone question the ND filters????? I mean ND filters are known to create this kind of red hue/IR polution to the image.... no????

I don't think it has anything to do with the ND filters. It was explained at #83 of this thread. Another test shot without any ND filter at #129 of this thread also confirmed this.

 

[Iliah Borg]

That is also what I thought. There is perhaps a drift of the red channel. Manually specifying a higher black level of the red channel DOES remove the red cast in shadow. However this value is not fixed among my test shots. The positive side is that this could potentially be fixed with a firmware update or a Capture One update.

View attachment 119894

It looks like overall black level, not just red channel. Here is how it works. Raw data in not white-balanced. When white balance is applied, red and blue channels are multiplied by some number, while green stays as it is. Suppose the black level in raw is incorrect, and the "true" black (pitch black on a shot after black level subtraction) is something like 500 in all channels instead of 0. Now we multiply those 500 by WB coeffs, say, they are 1.5 for both red and blue. Result is (R, G, B) = (750, 500, 750); that is green is in "deficit". "Minus Green" filter = Magenta, that is we are getting magenta tint on the image.

 

[dougpeterson]

Have you started a support case and submitted your files to Phase One yet?

 

[voidshatter]

Have you started a support case and submitted your files to Phase One yet?

I've sent back the demo unit and raw files to my dealer yesterday and my dealer is currently running these tests on another demo unit. I think they are going to create a support case soon.

Meanwhile, you are very welcome to do some tests with your demo unit (either to disprove or to confirm this issue).

 

[voidshatter]

Have you started a support case and submitted your files to Phase One yet?

My friend's dealer has responded:

A support case has been created with case number 223.782 and was escalated to DK support.

He did the following tests: 100MP + Alpa + 23mm lens, 30 minutes, cover the lens - no lights.
First one is with Normal Mode + Normal Latency. Second one is with Normal Mode + Zero Latency
Both images were captured in CF card mode.
To ensure no drop issue, the battery was changed on each shot.

The one with Normal latency is OK.
The one with Zero latency is reddish color.

 

[dougpeterson]

My friend's dealer has responded:

A support case has been created with case number 223.782 and was escalated to DK support.

He did the following tests: 100MP + Alpa + 23mm lens, 30 minutes, cover the lens - no lights.
First one is with Normal Mode + Normal Latency. Second one is with Normal Mode + Zero Latency
Both images were captured in CF card mode.
To ensure no drop issue, the battery was changed on each shot.

The one with Normal latency is OK.
The one with Zero latency is reddish color.

View attachment 119937

I've seen this happen when the back is used in zero latency but the sync signal is messed up (e.g. you give it a wakeup signal when it wasn't expecting it, but with such timing that it doesn't generate the sync error message on the back, or when the sync cable is defective). Often the issue doesn't manifest until the frame AFTER such a triggering error, making it a bit harder to track down.

I'm not saying that is the case here; I'd have to be there to know all that is going on.

In any case, sounds like your dealer is on it!

 

[voidshatter]

I've seen this happen when the back is used in zero latency but the sync signal is messed up (e.g. you give it a wakeup signal when it wasn't expecting it, but with such timing that it doesn't generate the sync error message on the back, or when the sync cable is defective). Often the issue doesn't manifest until the frame AFTER such a triggering error, making it a bit harder to track down.

I'm not saying that is the case here; I'd have to be there to know all that is going on.

In any case, sounds like your dealer is on it!

Hi Doug, thanks for replying. You don't have to be there to know what's going on. All you need to do is to spend a day and test it with your own demo units. You could even test it with sync cables of different brands (e.g. Cambo, Arca etc) since you are most resourceful in this forum.

Our current observations are:

a) There is a red cast in the shadow with increased long exposure time;

b) In descending order of severity: aerial mode (1/60s preliminary darkframe) + either zero latency or normal latency > normal mode + zero latency > normal mode + normal latency.

c) The issue is not profound if the image is shot with appropriate darkframe NR (either normal mode or a preliminary darkframe of appropriate exposure time in aerial mode) along with normal latency.

My dealer has been very helpful with this "issue" and also contacted Phase One and they have my thanks. Unfortunately Phase One does not care about anything shot other than "normal mode + normal latency" because they claim that "normal mode + normal latency" is the way in which the IQ3 100MP is designed to work.

To me, it looks like a firmware update or a Capture One update can fix this for aerial mode (1/60s preliminary darkframe) + zero latency and make it work as the IQ250 does. However my dealer doesn't think Phase One will implement this kind of "feature development".

I don't like the idea of normal latency with dedicated sync cables because I always mess up by forgetting to cock the shutter. It's also fragile as I once broke one of those more complicated sync releases in the field while I was in a hurry to catch the sunset. I like zero latency with the very basic soft touch release button, in accordance with Alpa's quote "Things are Simple at the Top". This is not about money but about the ease of use and reliability.

To me and to many of the seasoned long exposure photographers, not having to rely on any in-the-field darkframe countdown is essential. Having to shoot in normal mode with a darkframe NR countdown after each frame is not acceptable. Shooting a preliminary darkframe of appropriate exposure time in aerial mode is not practical in many situations either.

Almost all current 35mm format cameras (e.g. Nikon D810, Canon 5DSR etc) can shoot long exposure without darkframe NR. The IQ250 also works great in aerial mode (1/60s preliminary darkframe) + zero latency, which essentially doesn't need to rely on any darkframe NR countdown in the field.

As Phase One doesn't regard this being an "issue" for the IQ3 100MP, there should be no worries that this thread would affect the sales of the IQ3 100MP by any means. As long as everyone knows the limitations and workarounds and is happy with the gear choice it's fine to put this to rest unless there's more valuable information for an update.

 

[GrahamWelland]

Unfortunately Phase One does not care about anything shot other than "normal mode + normal latency" because they claim that "normal mode + normal latency" is the way in which the IQ3 100MP is designed to work.

To me, it looks like a firmware update or a Capture One update can fix this for aerial mode (1/60s preliminary darkframe) + zero latency and make it work as the IQ250 does. However my dealer doesn't think Phase One will implement this kind of "feature development".

I don't like the idea of normal latency with dedicated sync cables because I always mess up by forgetting to cock the shutter. It's also fragile as I once broke one of those more complicated sync releases in the field while I was in a hurry to catch the sunset. I like zero latency with the very basic soft touch release button, in accordance with Alpa's quote "Things are Simple at the Top". This is not about money but about the ease of use and reliability.

Whilst I can understand Phase One not wanting to under take support of Aerial Mode + zero latency and long exposure, I don't understand why they wouldn't recognize that there are many technical camera shooters who do use Zero Latency + Dark frame NR for extended exposure shooting. Heck, that's me and I'm sure plenty of other folks here.

For shooting in normal mode the only trigger that I found anywhere near reliable was the Alpa sync and then only the very latest version II and cables. Of course, that's a very expensive solution (well, it's Alpa so that goes without saying), especially if you want one on each lens. Swapping the trigger in the field is fraught with peril IMHO. I avoid screwing devices on & off the Copal shutter where possible and so shoot zero latency exclusively and actually fit all of my technical camera lenses with Gepe Pro release cable extentions so that even the shutter release is screwed in & out of an easily replaceable part vs the shutter itself.

 

[stephengilbert]

A senior moment? Of course you recall that "Gepe Pro release cable extensions" are referred to as "Libby adapters."