In a previous thread there was mention of the banding or ripple noise effect occurring when shifting Wide's using the IQ3-100. I don't have any of the Rody Wides but I do have my beloved Schneider 35XL. I realize that some of the shifting mentioned in previous tests was going out to 15mm which I would never try with the 35XL but I have made tests shifting out to 10mm which is a monster shift for this lens on the IQ3-100. I shot this image a little after sunrise and exposed for accurate sky. I did not lift the shadows since I was looking for any banding or rippling noise in the sky area. I just can't find any and am thrilled that I can get this kind of performance out of this lens. 10mm rise with LCC.
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Banding_Ripple noise test for IQ3-100
- Thread starter vjbelle
- Start date
voidshatter
Member
For IQ3 100MP + 35XL, 10mm shift would cause minor banding if you process the image extremely. See below Digital Transition's sample image with +100 clarity and B&W:
The effect is minor in many situations, other times as you convert to B&W or work with more saturation or clarity, the streaking shows more.
Only on Shifts, and greater than 5mm or so. At least on the shots where I saw it.
It was clear to me, that this would show up in large print, so I asked to have a case opened to see if the problem was just the back I was using, the answer came back no.
I have not shifted my IQ100 to 15mm yet, but have seen the problem in a few test shots, mentioned in an earlier post. Before I ordered the 100, I clarified with my dealer as to if this issue was still happening, and yes it was.
Now it's very possible that Sony, Phase One, or both have altered the chip fab, controller, firmware (that can't be added externally) to fix this issue and if so that is great for new orders. It was very clear that the problem carried over to the IQ100 that Alpa tested with, I made a point then to mention this. That shot is long gone I no longer have it.
Never said it's a show stopper, never will, but for 45K, it should not be there. And since it was well documented in issues with the 50MP chip, I was surprised and rather disappointed to see that the same issue carried over to the 100MP (at least the one I have). Since the effect is slight, it's also just that much harder to get rid of. I made my decision to purchase the 100, knowing it was there and also with a feeling that Phase would not fix it as it was never addressed with the 50MP chip. The other benefits of CMOS over CCD (IQ260) were enough for me to justify the move.
I am also not trying to bash anyone, any company, any dealer. Just want to point out that issue is there at least on some backs and depending on your photographic style, you may see it if you use the tech camera and shift a lot, which I did.
Attachment is from upper left corner of a 15mm shift HR-W40mm
Paul C
Only on Shifts, and greater than 5mm or so. At least on the shots where I saw it.
It was clear to me, that this would show up in large print, so I asked to have a case opened to see if the problem was just the back I was using, the answer came back no.
I have not shifted my IQ100 to 15mm yet, but have seen the problem in a few test shots, mentioned in an earlier post. Before I ordered the 100, I clarified with my dealer as to if this issue was still happening, and yes it was.
Now it's very possible that Sony, Phase One, or both have altered the chip fab, controller, firmware (that can't be added externally) to fix this issue and if so that is great for new orders. It was very clear that the problem carried over to the IQ100 that Alpa tested with, I made a point then to mention this. That shot is long gone I no longer have it.
Never said it's a show stopper, never will, but for 45K, it should not be there. And since it was well documented in issues with the 50MP chip, I was surprised and rather disappointed to see that the same issue carried over to the 100MP (at least the one I have). Since the effect is slight, it's also just that much harder to get rid of. I made my decision to purchase the 100, knowing it was there and also with a feeling that Phase would not fix it as it was never addressed with the 50MP chip. The other benefits of CMOS over CCD (IQ260) were enough for me to justify the move.
I am also not trying to bash anyone, any company, any dealer. Just want to point out that issue is there at least on some backs and depending on your photographic style, you may see it if you use the tech camera and shift a lot, which I did.
Attachment is from upper left corner of a 15mm shift HR-W40mm
Paul C
Attachments
Jamgolf
Member
I think raising and documenting observations such as the rippling/banding issue or the red-cast-without-dark-frame issue etc. has merit, is important and helps current and potential users understand the limits/boundaries of products. However, sometimes reporter's tone is perceived as 'sky-is-falling', then back & forth questioning of motives can ensue. If such issues are noted in a more documentary tone, I think the community is more receptive. e.g. "Hey I know I am pushing the limits here but I see such & such behavior when I do this & that - does anyone else see it ...?"
When voidshatter reported the red-cast issue, I tested myself and found that my usage is such that I will not be affected. Conversely, I have actually seen the rippling on Credo 60 with ~20mm back fall (90hrsw, Clarity was no where near +100 I rarely even go over +20.) but have not seen it yet on IQ3 100 + 32hr with up to 10mm of back fall. In fact I had no idea this was a known issue until I read Paul's recent post. I now know why that happened. It was a WTF moment - but I chalked it up to user-error at that time.
Most users work within the envelope where such issues do not manifest themselves, but for those who push the envelope its good have these documented. And to Paul's point, at $45K such issues should be addressed - whether or not they fit most user's use cases.
When voidshatter reported the red-cast issue, I tested myself and found that my usage is such that I will not be affected. Conversely, I have actually seen the rippling on Credo 60 with ~20mm back fall (90hrsw, Clarity was no where near +100 I rarely even go over +20.) but have not seen it yet on IQ3 100 + 32hr with up to 10mm of back fall. In fact I had no idea this was a known issue until I read Paul's recent post. I now know why that happened. It was a WTF moment - but I chalked it up to user-error at that time.
Most users work within the envelope where such issues do not manifest themselves, but for those who push the envelope its good have these documented. And to Paul's point, at $45K such issues should be addressed - whether or not they fit most user's use cases.
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Paul..... I have never doubted your observations. I only wanted to see for myself how my 35XL would perform with 10mm shifting. I've pretty much ruled out any of the Rody wide's due to their excessive distortion which means I have to live with the limitations of the Schneider Wide's. Again..... I am absolutely thrilled that I can get a clean 10mm shift out of my lens. The LCC looks plain awful before being cleaned up but Phase has done a great job addressing this issue. As far as pushing clarity to +100 its something I would NEVER do. I can't imagine a file that would need that kind of attention other than to just see what happens when that kind of adjustment is applied.
Victor
Victor
Hi Victor,
Sorry if my post seemed aimed at you, totally unintended. Actually I am extremely pleased to see that you were able to get 10mm of shift with the 35XL, as that was not possible on the 50MP. That is a great lens, as so much more fun to carry in the field, which is why I kept mine.
Looking back on my tests with the 50MP, the effect possibly is more pronounced with the back I was testing, and after reading your post, I looked back at the lenses I used, 28 HR , 40 HR-W and 60XL, The worst offender was the 28mm, then the 40, the 60XL show almost none of it, which is something I missed as I was more interested to seeing how much actual shift I could get with the 50MP back, as I was hoping that I could push the 40mm to 18mm of shift due to the crop, turned out not to be the case.
Paul C
Sorry if my post seemed aimed at you, totally unintended. Actually I am extremely pleased to see that you were able to get 10mm of shift with the 35XL, as that was not possible on the 50MP. That is a great lens, as so much more fun to carry in the field, which is why I kept mine.
Looking back on my tests with the 50MP, the effect possibly is more pronounced with the back I was testing, and after reading your post, I looked back at the lenses I used, 28 HR , 40 HR-W and 60XL, The worst offender was the 28mm, then the 40, the 60XL show almost none of it, which is something I missed as I was more interested to seeing how much actual shift I could get with the 50MP back, as I was hoping that I could push the 40mm to 18mm of shift due to the crop, turned out not to be the case.
Paul C
Certain kinds of black and white processing requires extreme contrast, in those situation issues can arise. Possibly also stronger forms of tonemapping. Users that had issues with tiling on the Dalsas might be concerned about this, but if you didn't have tiling issues I guess you won't have issues with this type of ripple either.
Personally I would be more worried about color fidelity/stability and dynamic range loss than ripple when using Schneider wides on the IQ3 100. The good color properties and extremely high dynamic range of the CMOS sensor lets you push it way past its designed limits and still get good results though. One should know that the sensor suffers lots and lots of crosstalk in this situation and as such gets "dumbed down" to say a mobile phone camera in terms of color separation, but sure mobile phone cameras can make really good images too, so I guess as long as you're satisfied with the results it's fine.
Personally I would be more worried about color fidelity/stability and dynamic range loss than ripple when using Schneider wides on the IQ3 100. The good color properties and extremely high dynamic range of the CMOS sensor lets you push it way past its designed limits and still get good results though. One should know that the sensor suffers lots and lots of crosstalk in this situation and as such gets "dumbed down" to say a mobile phone camera in terms of color separation, but sure mobile phone cameras can make really good images too, so I guess as long as you're satisfied with the results it's fine.
I never even remotely took it that way. I simply wanted to reassure you that I had and still do have a lot of confidence with regards to your posts and findings.
Cheers......
Victor