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Thread: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    The reality in MF is all you are buying between systems mostly is functionality, software and ergonomics. Right now today the Hassy and Phase run the same sensors except for the Hassy 50 and Phase P65. Obviously lenses and such but the image quality is pretty much on par with the other and I still don't buy the fact that lenses are the separators in it. When I can throw a old design lens that you can get on e-bay for 500 dollars and produces great image quality than you have to wonder how much the lenses really count. Nothing wrong with great glass ever but this is NOT 35mm shooting and different rules apply. Honestly every one of the S2 will look identical just like the M summarits do. They are all being made from the same glass and same basic design. Not that they are bad they will just all have the same character
    Is this my Guy Mancuso talking???...........the great glass guru?

    I understand your points however. Great glass is valuable only if it gives you differentiated images after all. There are certainly lenses that meet that criteria e.g. the R 100 macro elmarit. But I do believe you could build an entire portfolio around the M8 and CV lenses and have people oohing and aahing, if the images have sufficient interest AS A SUBJECT.

    JMHO

    Woody

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    How true. Don't know if the initial drafting committee for GAAP were less greedy, simply naive or just less creative than their current accounting peers (and I'm married to a former auditor), but GAAP is so broken it isn't even funny.

    Pulling consulting contracts away from the same firm who does your auditing is a good first step, but it's the first step of 1001 needed to tighten things up.

    Not to mention some good old fashion chain gang time. Nothing like the prospect of spending your days breaking rocks vs. playing golf and your evenings snuggling with Bubba the Axe Murder to make a Cxx think twice...

    Now if you think things are bad in the US with the SEC's current state of affairs, you even want to know about our largest regulator's (we don't have a national one) track record.


    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    And further Rob, if you look through the 10K's and Q's from recent years and quarters, goodwill impairment is simply staggering. What in the past seemed pretty benign accounting has now risen up its head to flog the balance sheets

    Woody

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    A good lens is a good lens is a good lens. Doesn't matter what it costs, who made it, how old it was, whether the box came with it or how much liquified Black Forest Troll or Mount Fuji Elf entrails it took to make the coatings.

    If it draws the way you want and delivers the final PRINTS (vs 100% on screen side-by-side pixelurbation) that you as the hobbyist like or that you as the supplier can sell your clients, it does the job.

    Is x times more $$$ for a different lens in the same FL from someone else bolted to (as Guy says) virtually the same sensor from the same handful of suppliers in a different box going to make a large enough difference in sales/contracts or ease of workflow to justify the (as Marc put it on another post) "napalming (of) your bank account" required?

    If yes, than do it. It no, tweak what you've got, make some money and be happy that you can log on to your online banking without shaking like a leaf.

    I'm as big a gear head as the next guy/gal, but even for nuts like us there comes a point where you've got to say:

    "Hang on second here. If I do this switch, I'll be burning X$ that could be spent elsewhere (or saved - nah) on gear. Gear that's going to depreciate like a rock of a cliff all so I can get Y% 'better IQ' (whatever the hell that is) -- a fraction of which, if any, I'll see in print. And by doing this, I'll have to give someone else, who by the way is starting to look a lot smarter than I am, a HELL of a good deal on some clean used gear that's had no issues making me money for years - and that I now know inside out and backwards."


    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Is this my Guy Mancuso talking???...........the great glass guru?

    I understand your points however. Great glass is valuable only if it gives you differentiated images after all. There are certainly lenses that meet that criteria e.g. the R 100 macro elmarit. But I do believe you could build an entire portfolio around the M8 and CV lenses and have people oohing and aahing, if the images have sufficient interest AS A SUBJECT.

    JMHO

    Woody
    Last edited by robmac; 8th March 2009 at 07:20.

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by woodyspedden View Post
    Is this my Guy Mancuso talking???...........the great glass guru?

    I understand your points however. Great glass is valuable only if it gives you differentiated images after all. There are certainly lenses that meet that criteria e.g. the R 100 macro elmarit. But I do believe you could build an entire portfolio around the M8 and CV lenses and have people oohing and aahing, if the images have sufficient interest AS A SUBJECT.

    JMHO

    Woody
    Woody I honestly don't think MF is anything like 35mm when it comes to lenses . In 35mm you have to find the absolute best glass there is in that format. In MF the big sensor takes a lot of that pressure off. Even the tech lenses between it and say a good Hassy or Mamiya lens the difference is not earth shattering . It is there mind you but it is not like in the 35 realm between a good lens and a great lens. Obviously we know the difference and we look for it but it is not earth shattering. Now maybe when we get to the 50 and 60 mpx backs there maybe more separation. This is still unknown until these are out longer and it can be tested.
    Even the P65 Plus when testing it my lenses held up extremely well. No question the tech lenses are awesome on it but no real head to head showdowns I know of yet
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Woody I honestly don't think MF is anything like 35mm when it comes to lenses . In 35mm you have to find the absolute best glass there is in that format. In MF the big sensor takes a lot of that pressure off. Even the tech lenses between it and say a good Hassy or Mamiya lens the difference is not earth shattering . It is there mind you but it is not like in the 35 realm between a good lens and a great lens. Obviously we know the difference and we look for it but it is not earth shattering. Now maybe when we get to the 50 and 60 mpx backs there maybe more separation. This is still unknown until these are out longer and it can be tested.
    Even the P65 Plus when testing it my lenses held up extremely well. No question the tech lenses are awesome on it but no real head to head showdowns I know of yet
    Fully agree to that!

    And BTW, for 35 lenses it is very true, that if the lens is not perfectly centered or adjusted, or de-adjusted after some harsh use, one can see these faults much more than in MF.

    So the conclusion is: the larger the format the more forgiving for the lens faults and weak designs.

    This is not only true for lenses but for the complete chain, like AF accuracy etc. as well.

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    There is certainly truth to the reality of MF lenses being more forgiving than their 35mm counterparts. And, for those that shoot MF in a traditional manner from f8 - f22 it's a no-brainer to want to snatch up inexpensive lenses that allow them to make use of nearly identical printed results.


    But, there are others, and more to come as others from the 35mm world move into the MF-uber 35mm category with cameras like the S2, who shoot a lot of work as close to wide-open as possible. This is where lenses from the S2 line-up will have stronger appeal. This is where Leica has an opportunity to redefine what MF optics look like across the chart.

    Kurt

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post

    This is not only true for lenses but for the complete chain, like AF accuracy etc. as well.
    I am sorry, but I just cannot agree with this! If anything, focus is more critical because of the shallower depth of field. In any case, some of this is a real advantage and some of it isn't. It is really about degree of enlargement. If you print significantly larger from medium format than you do from 35mm, then you are taxing the lenses just as hard. A 10x enlargement from 35mm (about 11x14) and a 10x enlargement from medium format digital (36x48mm) (about 16x20) work the lens equally hard. So it is basically only a difference of one print size. If you max out your 35mm printing at 16x20, and print larger than 20x24 on medium format, you are actually working your medium format lenses harder.
    I really don't think there is much more optical wiggle room, particularly if you actually are using medium format digital for large prints or severe crops. If your wide angle lens has soft corners, you ARE going to see it at 16x20...

    You have to keep in mind that we are talking mostly about sub 645 sensors, more like hypertrophied 35mm sizes than atrophied medium format in some senses. These are not 6x7 or 6x9 sized chunks of sensor that would be more forgiving to the lenses. 36x48, and especially 30x45mm in the s2 is still fairly small and will demand a lot of enlargement. The megapixels will give you the resolution, but the lens has to be up to the task of giving it detail to resolve...not just in the center but all the way to the edge of the frame.
    Last edited by Stuart Richardson; 9th March 2009 at 05:19.
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Good points Stuart.

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuart Richardson View Post
    The megapixels will give you the resolution, but the lens has to be up to the task of giving it detail to resolve...not just in the center but all the way to the edge of the frame.
    Stuart,

    I am not saying that the lenses do not need a certain high quality, I am only arguing, if the extra Leica quality is necessary. I have my experiences in MF digital with Hasselblad H3D2 and some of their H glass and I only can say the results are more than exceptional. Topping this by Leica with a smaller format is almost impossible.

    On the other hand I have my experiences with Crop DSLRs and also the Four Thirds System and I can only say that FT performs if everything is optimally adjusted, but if not you easily get in trouble pretty soon. Same for Crop size. So the larger MF format is more forgiving, although you have shallower DOF - at least what I found in my trials. The smaller everything is in a camera, the higher the precision needs to be in order to make perfect results.

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    I guess I just don't see any difference. Assuming an equal ratio of enlargement, the lenses will be used equally hard. Especially since medium format makers are now using the same 6 micron pixels that there are in the smaller format cameras. In shooting with my medium format digital back, I find that precision is much more critical than shooting with my M8 or D3 -- both of those will easily show misfocus or camera shake, but the 22mp in the medium format back is ruthless -- focusing in live view you can see how the tiniest fraction of a turn on the lens barrel will make a tack sharp image a soft one, particularly with lenses like a 110/2 or 180/2.8. Same for if you even breath hard on the camera (literally), it will set the image vibrating.
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    +1

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    I think what is important to remember is that the pixel pitch of the sensor matters.

    If you have a "demanding" 35mm sensor that has a 6um pixel pitch, a MFD sensor at 6um is just as demanding on the optics (if not more so). The overall image information (MP) is greater, but the resolving power required to render the details at the pixel level should be the same.

    So, yes, I agree that a back like the P25+ is less demanding as it uses 9um pixels, same as the Hassy CFV, same as the D3/D700. But, once we start getting into 6um territory like the P65+, H3DII-50/60, and S2 the lenses need to be as high resolving as those for the smaller 35mm format, and still cover a larger image circle. If the P25 sensor measures 36x48mm and gives 22MP, cut this sensor in half to 24x36 and you get 11MP (12MP in D3 as it is actually 8.9um). So, shouldn't the lens you mount on your Mamiya be able to resolve the same lp/mm as a Nikon lens on the D3 to achieve the same per-pixel detail?

    David
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    @ David,

    yes I agree!

    I personally feel that any H lens can deliver great results up to 50MP and I assume also higher (I personally did not test this). Same I think will be true for the S2 and S lenses, although these lenses will have it a bit easier, as they "only" have to cover a smaller image circle. But I am sure thy will be able to also serve the next sensor in the S System, which will then show around 50MP in some years from now. I think I remember right that it was Kodak who said somewhere, that they can imagine sensors down to 5 micron with next generation technologies. This should bring the S System around the 50MP then and the H System around the 80MP. So hopefully lenses are designed to handle that jump.

    I personally do not think that higher resolution in the H and S System sensor sizes makes any more sense, but what does my opinion count? And if someone had told me 4 years ago I would once look into 50MP resolutions I would have declared this person a fool But now I am happily considering this resolution and even worry about where the future will go.

    Overall it comes down to the fact that a weighty, heavy camera is better because it can be usually held much quieter than a smaller one, so a H3 would have some advantage over the S2. And if you use tripod, then weight is not the issue anymore, so the advantages of the S2 disappear even more.

    Just trying to justify my current preference for the H System as opposed to the S System

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    If what you want is the best image that CAN be capture with these systems, I ran some numbers, which is an annoying habit of mine (I admit it)
    Now some of the numbers might not be exact, since I computed the pixel sizr for the M8 and the S2 since I could not find specs for them, The Pahse One data is from their spec sheets.
    So given Nyquist sampling criteria applies to all of these equally, and assuming that there is no "blurring filter"/anti-aliasing filter for thes sensors, I calculate the following:

    Sensor limit in resolving capability in line pairs per mm:
    M8 80.6
    S2 83.3
    P45+ 73.5
    P65+ 83.3

    That would indicate to me that
    1:
    a) lenses that achieve at least the above resolution at the same contrast will max out the sensor capability. I use a ballpark of 50% contrast to be usable and 20% contrast to be observable. T\I think that this is where the often mentioned "micro contrast" comes from.
    b) These numbers are not all that hard to reach today, although I observe that the P45+ is somewhat less dependent on lens resolution than the others to achieve its maximum capability, i.e. it is a bit more "forgiving"
    c) resolution higher than this is wasted, unless the lens is capable of getting higher contrast at these nyquist limits.
    -bob

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    I am not saying that the lenses do not need a certain high quality, I am only arguing, if the extra Leica quality is necessary.
    It is like megapixels: you may not need them, but why turn them down? Anyway, given enough megapixels, and 50 may do this for some lenses, the old lenses may start to show weaknesses. One example would be the Fuji 680 system, whose lenses apparently were great on film but started falling apart with DBs.
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by ptomsu View Post
    Overall it comes down to the fact that a weighty, heavy camera is better because it can be usually held much quieter than a smaller one, so a H3 would have some advantage over the S2. And if you use tripod, then weight is not the issue anymore, so the advantages of the S2 disappear even more.

    Just trying to justify my current preference for the H System as opposed to the S System
    Why not just stick to "I have a preference for the H System over the S system"

    It might seem more rational

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    I'll try an explanation:

    One of the most important measurements for IQ is the MTF. Not just the lenses but the combination of the MTF from film/sensor + lens. Many people talk about resolution as an absolute term ("this lens delivers 100lp/mm...") but what major fact the MTF tells is the contrast/frequency-ratio.

    Most Hasselblad, Mamiya or even the old Zeiss-lenses can deliver sufficient resolutions for today's sensors (except for extreme situations) but at what contrast?
    When we compare the MTFs (usually we must not do that, because they're from different sources) of the S-lenses we see that they usually achieve over 50% contrast at 40lp/mm on 80% picture height while most Hasselblad-lenses only deliver 20%-30% contrast under these circumstances. 40lp/mm are the resolution limit for 12micron-photosites -> a 15MPixel MFDB (the higher pixel density of todays sensors will accentuate this difference!
    The other part in the MTF-calculation is the sensor, that's where Hasselblad profits from larger sensors/more photosites. So the MTF-result in comparison of the S-System (better lens-MTF, worse sensor-MTF) to the 50/60MP-backs will be the the real IQ-result in terms of sharpness-perception.
    What I'm trying to say:
    Even when the lens doesn't limit the performance (e.g. measuring nyquist-resolution on a test chart...) of your camera/sensor/film under ideal circumstances, lens-quality (MTF) is still crucial and can be used to increase practical IQ.

    But that's all theory, simply compare the results of the Schneider/Rodenstock-lenses (which have similar MTF-performance as the S-lenses) even on a "low-res" (;-) 39MP-back with "normal" lenses, you will see the difference!

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Quote Originally Posted by Guy Mancuso View Post
    Continued


    ....
    The S2 is incredibly well thought out from both a user and an engineering perspective. ...... All-in-all, the S2 is shaping up to be a truly professional tool. Is it summer yet?!!
    hey guy thanks for the time it took to do all of this..but I have heard little about what the viewfinder was like.. framelines? big? bright? beautiful? grid? optional screens? .. compare it to say a canon 1dsIII, or afdIII, or H3...
    thanks!

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    There are optional focus screens. It's mentioned somewhere in this thread, but don't recall which page now. (Or maybe it was one of the other S2 threads.)

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Actually the viewfinder was very nice and bright and big , nice touch on that actually and all the info LED in the top of the frame which was very easy to see and i belive there maybe up to 5 different focusing screens available. Micro,split, grid normal and something else

    Oh and bigger than any canon or Nikon viewing went up with the size. Also adjustable diopter. No cut off black screen of the viewfinder (backlight stuff) Dof preview and 4 buttons like a pHase back for all menu's and such. Very clean

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    One thing we are also forgetting is that there is much more to a lens than simply resolution. Distortion, inherent contrast and color balance, vignetting, color fringing, bokeh behavior, ergonomics and build quality -- size and weight....certainly cost. All these things go into a lens and it will be very difficult to see how everything compares until they are available for sale and people start using them. Given my past experience with Leica R and Leica M, as well as Zeiss, Schneider and Mamiya, I am fairly sure Leica will be at least as good, and very likely better than all but the best of the other makers.

    If it is priced within reason, I will probably put my money where my mouth is too...
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    IMO although I really appreciate Leica lenses, I have seen a lot of close if not better from Zeiss Schneider and a few others for a lot less money.
    So it would be refreshing to see Leica come in within ballpark parity on price unless they really have something with superior visible results.
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Has anyone who has tried the S2 also had some experience with the Hasselblad H3DII, and can compare the viewfinders, especially for manual focus? The latter is meant to have the best and brightest viewfinder of the current MF crop, as far as I understand, although I am not sure if that statement includes the Hy6.
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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    Carsten,

    I'm late to the party on commenting about the S2 which I REALLY liked.

    The H2 viewfinder is slightly brighter. Contrast appeared about the same. Manual focus ability seamed very good on the S2, on par with the Hassy. The S2 viewfinder beat the Mamiya viewfinder by alot.

    Best,

    Ray

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    Re: The S2 PMA with David Farkas

    ...and probably beat the Contax viewfinder by even more. I need to get a Maxwell screen for mine.

    I loved manually focusing the R8 with the 180/2. I long for that experience again.
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